Running a Diesel on Hydroxy gas

[Bob]

 I don't know of any units currently running Hydroxy gas in their Diesel engines...YET but I am sure there are a few out there.
from what I have read it is supposed to be even easier to use Hydroxy in a Diesel than it is in a gasoline engine you just plumb it into the air horn between the engines air intake and the air filter...
thats it !
I hope to have confirmation on that soon by users ! stay tuned!
...
Bob......

[randy]

yeah it works but only to a point, ya seem to hit a wall and more hydroxyl will no longer help.

[Bob]

KOOL ! thanks Randy !
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

My 98 cummins turbo diesel gets a 21% increase.

[Bob]

KOOL... but what's that mean in MPG exactly  like what were you getting before and what after kind'a thing... my brain don't work very well on percentages ! HAHAHHAHA
THANK YOU FOR POSTING THAT !  at least we know it does work on a diesel !
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

19 mpg base went to 23mpg. I put the gas hose in the filter box post airfilter just before the turbo. The increase in power was very noticable(even the wife noticed). My egt temps went down an average of 50*F.

[randy]

yeah my buddy Tim says his runs cooler and stronger also, he's using 4 LPM now but we tried 6 LPM but the mileage stayed the same as 4 LPM was giving, so he opted to remove the added cells to reduce draw on his electrical system.

[Bob]

Whats Tim getting in MPG Randy ...any idea and whats it on ?  4LPM should net some reasonable gains eh ?
....
Now you have me wondering Randy ... why would a Diesel engine hit a "Wall" and a gasoline engine not?   that boggels my mind.... I can't see a reason for that kind of behaviour
can you ? 
the only possable cause I can think of is if the intake of air in that piticular diesel was small enough so that the Hydroxy gas in the intake  is 100% hydroxy gas  then yes adding more would do no good... but thats a strech of the imagination ...even fer me !
HAHAHAHHA

[randy]

not sure why but I think the hydroxy only helps a diesel burn the fuel it's fed more efficiently, you can't really adjust the thing to run leaner, although you could readjust the fuel governor but then you might have a problem with cold starting.

[bio_bloke]

Is it safe to try and lean out the diesel and replace with hydroxy?

This has been a concern I have raised before in the other forum but nobody replied.

I can see it doing no harm in just adding a little bit - same as some diesels have LPG boosting.

I can just see engine damage on a diesel if your replacing diesel - if you want to save diesel make biodiesel or run a SVO operation on your vehicles.

Just my opinion anyway.

If anyone has evidence otherwise please set me straight with this, else i will keep on asking this question until someone answers.  I don't have a diesel anymore so it doesn't concern me.

[Bob]

As far as I know You can Lean out a Diesel a Long way from STOCK condition...
My Step Dad added a 6cyl Perkins 350 into his 350ford truck his rolling weight was over 10,000lbs all the time, at first he got something like 12mpg and he was just sick and explained to me why it shouldn't be that way.... after having the injectors rebuilt and tested he had the pump rebuilt as well
he then set to adjusting the engine and got it purring like a Kitten after about a week of constant tinkering and tweeking... the end results were 41MPG loaded with 2 tons of gravel and 45mpg empty
... so MOST diecels will benifit from adjustment...but these newer diesels I have no knowledge on at all
... Sonnyj has a big diecel in his "Office" truck and he knows more about Diecels than I ever hope to
he is a good one to ask about Diecels!
...
Bob.......

[Losttoo]

Here's what I have discovered about the cummins in my dodge. It does have a map sensor, little did I know I even had one. I believe I also have an o2 sensor but haven't located it yet, hence the problem of "hitting the wall" with Hydroxy". Gonna give this a good look after hunting season, don't wanna mess with it now as it's the best "wheeler" I have. Been thru this whole system as it got submerged"thanks honey" in the river a couple years ago. HeHE last time I'll tell her I love that truck better than you.
Anyway ordered 7 carbon graphite disks to build another unit. I believe that this is gonna get rid of my heat problem. Gonna put one randy cell and one carbon cell in the same bath as the problem with the carbon is no heat production to get the output up there. Gonna put a softplug heater on the case so I can plug both the diesel and the generator in at the same time. Well back to the hunting...

Losttoo

Somewhere between Mt. St. helens and Mt. Adams

[Bob]

OH good greef ! there is smogg stuff on diesels too  
Another case of "Helping you weather you need it or not!"
...
Yes I suspect that the O2 sensor is the problem as in a gasoline engine its purpose is to detect
how much oxygen is left in the exhost..if there is too much Oxygen that means the engine is running lean
so it adds more gasoline so you don't burn a hole in the piston or seeze the engine up...
not a bad arrangement just one that takes a computer to make it work... and if you have a computer in the Diesel truck  you can bet you will have the same problems getting it to accept the Hydroxy gas as the gasoline folks do !
....
 Don't get LOST out there Losttoo! <GRIN>
...
Bob.....

[Losttoo]

Got an O2 sensor too. got the min and max voltages for both gotta override them. Lucky me I have the factory shop manual on dvd and the haynes book so gonna do a lot of reading and figuring at elk camp so when the seasons done I'll be ready to "give her hell"
I'll keep posting results but for the next couple weeks I got my Elk eye on.

See Ya'll soon,
Gary

[randy]

Hey losttoo ya better wait a till it opens before elk hunting haha I live in yer neck of the woods too, took a cow west of Glenwood a few years back.

[Losttoo]

Goin' up early and set out the alfalfa flakes. HeHe Not against the law to bait 'em. Just can't bait bears. Gotta put camp up a few weeks in advance to keep my spot. Maybe get a deer for campmeat. I'm at a standstill right now waiting for my carbon graphite disks to get here anyway.

[hydrotinkerer]

I know my 98 cummins turbo diesel doesn't have a map or o2 sensor.

[Bob]

Shame on you Losttoo !
hehehehe (don't forget to take peaches or appercotts with ya they can smell them 40 miles away !)
.....
..
 Hydrotinkerer:
 I have no idea when they started adding Smogg shit to Diesels... man thats a SIN ! and I don't know who's bright idea it was but they should be tared and feathered !...
a well tuned diesel is the cleanest runnin engine there is ! ...
but unfortionately the way they roll them off the assembly line is far from well tuned !
another thing I cannot understand ... a diesel pickup can get 40 to 45MPG easy... My step dads
F-350 ford with a 6Cyl perkins got that...after a bunch of fixin' up... and with a 5 spd trans and a 3 spd brownie in it it would haul anything... and frequantly did ! hehehehehe
and when these new Diesel pickups get a 15MPG sticker in the window I have to laugh !
not only is Detroit giveing it to us but the oil companies are too !  what a bunch of nice folk ! <GRIN>
...
Sonnyj has a Big truck, with a Stock Diesel in it and his Fuel milage isn't that great eather...and it needs to be for him... its his Lively hood ! I have been trying to get him interested in putting a Hydroxy unit on his truck but I'm having truble getting by the "Scare tatics" of others...
if you know what I mean ! .... whats Hydrogen embrittlement? what about it rusting out the motor and such like...pluss its one of those things that if it "sounds too good to be true, it probly isn't !"
so the more info about Diesels we can get on here the better off everyone will be...
there is practically NO information out there on Diesel and Hydroxy ... so Please feel free to elebrate
on what you have , how you hooked it up and what its done for ya !
...
Bob........

[Tink]

I've been looking for an early 90's Dodge Cummins for a long time. Seams that is when they were simpler and a lot could be done with them. But problem is up here in the White Mtns they are going for $10K even with 100's of K miles on them. The new Fords have V8 desiel and that is not for pulling. The 6's are better cause they produce more turque. Older Ford V8 desiel trucks up here are unwanted for the most part. These ranchers know from experience.
Tink

[Manta]

Bob,
re.
a diesel pickup can get 40 to 45MPG easy... My step dads
F-350 ford with a 6Cyl perkins got that.

There was an article in one of the American mags (Practical Mechanic) that described how a guy in California got 100 mpg from an old Perkins 4/108.  I believe he is still alive and well. The secret was well chosen gearing and a turbocharger.
 
Manta

Now,  I just happen to have a 4/108 in my shed....

[Bob]

Yah ! Diesels can be tuned very well, but it takes an Artest to do it properly!
when I was working on my Mom's Old Mercadies car I was Dismayed at the fact that the timeing for the
Fuel injection pump was done by the DRIP METHOD... which can be very inaccurate indeed !
but later discovered that you tune it by ear once its running and that made me feel better !
....you have to know what your doing on a Diesel, no doubt about that !
and these newer models seam to take away the Tune-ability from the user...not a good trind at all.
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

You can get a "power puck" for cummins that lets you adjust timing and fuel trim. They work from 98.5 so far up to 07's. They started emissions "stuff" on some diesels in 1998.5.

[ROADKING]

Hello again,  well I am working on a Cummings and have added a cell to it, the base mpg was 18 and I am now up to 21mpg, so I guess I am up to power?  My cell is a dry cell configuration as I run on my 1965 Chevy and I have it set on about 2.5 litres per min same as I have on the Chevy.  By the way Chevy still performing well, had some problems with lexan but I hope I have resolved that.  Will let you know more after this weekend.

[hydrotinkerer]

Roadking, My cummins gained almost the exact same amount. 21% on average.

[Bob]

Humm. thats pitiful mileage for a diesel... at least in my experience.  My Step Dads Perkins 6cyl 350cid got over 40mpg when hauling a ton of gravel  !(also had a 4spd Browning transmition added) but he went to great lengths to get that
he put duel 4" exhausts on it that exited by the cab, had the pump professionally adjusted by a fella he'ed known for decades and had the injectors gone through by the same fella...  he was getting only 20 mpg from it after he installed it in the ford f-350 chassy, and I said well thats not all that bad and he laughed and said wait till I get the pump fixed and injectors working properly !
running empty with his utility box on the back the truck weighed 10,000 lbs ! and he got a constant 48 to 52mpg on the freeway.... Mom and Him traveled all over the US in that truck, he was religious about changing the water filters (3 of them) and keeping the diesel fuel super clean.
he had over a Million miles under his belt in 18 wheelers and knew Diesel engines inside and out.
he called his truck his Baby Pickup...but it was anything but a baby... I saw 4 tons of gravel on that truck at once and it didn't even strain going up hills with that on it.!  
....
He taught me that if a diesel puts out Black smoke on acceleration its pump was set up wrong !
I told him but they all do that ! and he says "Yah ! your right!....their All set up wrong!"
 ....
  Talk to a "Fuel injection Rebuilder/Diesel Pump" man  and see if there is a way to get those cummings to get better mileage...  being newer there may not be much you can do about it , but if its old enough you may be able to get extreamily High mileage from the Diesel engine.
....
its a thought !
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

That is with mine running all stock. I agree there are ways to squeeze miles out of a diesel. You also have to keep in mind that now you have to deal with "emissions" diesel fuel. It is a all together different.

I have had a cummins long enough to see the difference in fuel milage when diesel was changed to "ultra low sulphur". The old mechanical injector pumps don't like it and have a shorter lifespan. The sulphur content was used to partially lube the pumps and injectors. You take that away and you have nothing. In my benz and cummins I add stuff to help.

The new diesels are electronically injected. Away with the mechanical injection pumps and pop-off type injectors. The new systems don't need the excess sulphur and in some vehicles the high sulphur content will mess up the pumps and electronic injectors. A catch 22 with so many older diesels and no "decent sulphur" fuel to put in them your kind of caught. You are right about the black smoke though, you don't see hardly any new electronically controlled diesels that smoke. They don't make alot of noise either.

[Bob]

Humm. so if I get the old Mercadies runnin'  it won't stay running long unless I add automatic trans fluid to the Diesel ( that's what my step dad Ken Did )...one quart to the tank full of Diesel.
....it figures that the emitions control stuff is more of a detrament than it is a help... because that is how its been for gasoline engines as well...
...we just gott'a get away from fossel fuel all togather....running pure Hydroxy gas should work fine for a Diesel engine but I am wondering about the ware and ignition... Hydroxy gas doesn't ignite via compression like other fuels.... so its hard to say weather it would actually work or not
....
for your truck Hydrotinkier I think you'ed need about 25 to 30 LPM to run it on 100% Hydroxy gas
have you given any thought to making that much Hydroxy gas ?   sounds like quite a challenge!
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

25-30lpm is not that far away. I am putting together a 75 plate generator running on rectified ac. A couple of 60 plate gens. put out 5-7lpm at less than 20amps now. My goal is 10lpm at 18-20amps, I guess we will see how it goes. One of the biggest challenges is making the gas and liquid flow right. My small 31 plate was disassembled 10 or more times adjusting the gaskets and hole sizes to get the best flow characteristics and to keep it cool.

[Brad4321]

I am a diesel mechanic by trade (and engineer on the side), specifically work for cummins currently, but I only own international. I am not going to claim to know everything, but I would like to comment on a few things mentioned in this thread. I have not ran hydroxy through any of my diesels (testing on my small ranger), so I can't comment directly on that yet. Nearly all of what I am mentioning below is engine THEORY. As we all know, theory is not always actuality, so keep that in mind.

Air/fuel mixtures are completely different in a standard diesel (there are exceptions, especially newer and foreign models) than gas. Diesels do not have a throttle valve, so they do not meter air in any way*. The engine throttles itself (controls rpm and torque) by fueling. Need more power? Dump in more fuel. More fuel creates more heat which spools up the turbo dumping in more air. Here is the key difference between diesels and gas...gas engines run hotter the leaner they are, diesels run hotter the richer they are.

Side note: I have been reading this forum for about a month now getting ideas for my generator...and I have read that a few people have been leaning out their engines in an attempt for better MPG. This is a wonderful idea except without an EGT pyrometer, you have no idea what your exhaust temperatures are. Leaning out a gas engine increases combustion/exhaust gas temperature to a point where you could melt a piston/valve. EGT gauges/probes are not cheap (anywhere from $100-$300 depending on options), they are a near requirement if you are wanting to mess with your fuel mixture...and they have many other uses that you can read about online.

It is really hard to "lean" (injecting less fuel since air is unmetered) out a diesel. It takes a certain amount of power to accelerate, climb a hill, or whatever. A diesel makes that power by injecting the perfect amount of fuel for the given situation. If you lean out a diesel, you are simply making less power. Diesels do NOT run at stoichiometry or any of the nonsense that gas engines do. Under cruise, it is common to find a diesel running about 100:1. By the time you get a gas engine near 20:1 you are really close to burning a piston or valve.

Simply put, diesels already run lean. Black smoke is running rich. A slight gray haze out of the pipe is the perfect fuel combination for maximum power. A thick black smoke is just wasted fuel. If your diesel never hazes out smoke, you are not making anywhere near maximum power. You get better efficiency with a smaller engine at full load than with a larger engine at partial load, keep in mind.

Diesel fuel burns slower than gas. When atomized, we are talking millionths of a second, but it does burn slower. This is one of the reasons diesels tend to turn less RPM than gas engines on average; you have to allow for more time for combusion. Hydroxy would tend to speed that up...to a very limited extent. All modern diesels have an injector directly into the cylinder. The injector sprays (upwards of 20,000psi) atomized diesel directly in the cylinder near the top of the compression cycle. The diesel instantly ignites as it comes out of the injector. This differs from a standard gasoline engine in that the spark plug ignites fuel/air mixture that is already in the cylinder**. Hydroxy has a better chance of speeding up the burn process of a gas engine due to the flame front starting at the plug and working its way to the piston in sort of a triangular shape. Diesel fuel can only ignite as fast as it comes out of the injector, which it already does.

In regards to the newer cummins having a map sensor and O2 sensor...you are correct, it does. However, keep in mind the throttling/injection methods. The cummins has those sensors for completely different reasons from a gas engine. A gas engine must run near stoich, and (unless it is mass air), relies on the map sensor to tell it the amount of air entering the engine to deliver the proper amount of fuel. Although the diesel is also doing this, it is strictly for emission purposes and operating the VGT turbo. I will touch on this a bit later, but altering your map/o2 signals on the cummins like you would a gas could possible improve your fuel economy, but will mostly screw with the emissions. Most importantly, if your truck has a catalyst, do not mess with the map/o2 sensor signals or you will destroy the cat, and you really don't want to know how much one of those costs to replace. It is also not nearly as easy to just gut/remove the cat on a newer diesel like a gas engine.

In regard to Bob's comment on diesel fuel economy...diesels are getting progressively worse fuel economy. Once again, this is due to emissions. I won't go into all of the detail as it doesn't matter, but just to give you an idea. New diesels (2010 model year), will be using urea. The exhaust runs through a diesel particulate filter to get rid of the solids (black smoke), then into a secondary catalyst to reduce nox and other emissions. In this 2nd catalyst, they inject urea to help remove the nox. Urea has similar chemicals to urine, and is a running joke in the industry. This diesel particulate filter (DPF) gets plugged up occasionally. To clean it out, the engine injects raw diesel into the catalyst raising its temperature significantly burning off these deposited. When this injector is functioning, you are getting nothing short of MPG down the drain. Simply put, the older diesels get significantly better fuel economy than their emissionized counterparts. This goes back way before the urea injection time frame to the first use of EGR.

In regards to the fuel economy of your step-dad's truck, there are a few things I can contribute to it. I have driven a few perkins diesels in my day in trucks and they were underpowered/undersized by all standards, an intentional thing. This is a perfect given to FE due to a smaller engine working near maximum capacity gets better economy than a larger engine working at partial capacity. I have an f350 as well, get right at 21mpg at about 550hp. When you consider the drop in engine size/power, the pattern is there. Although I do not know a whole lot about perkins engines, I do know that they are fairly advanced/efficient engines which plays a big role as well. I also bet that your dad's truck was geared properly for FE. My truck is geared for power/acceleration (since I race it) which totally kills any hope for good FE.

The whole inline 6 having more torque than a v8 is a myth that goes back as far as anyone alive today can remember. That is absolutely not true, although it does have merits in fact and I will cover a few of them here. This topic can get deep into engineering BS and I just don't care to go there. Inline 6 and v12 engines both have one very important quality...they are naturally balanced. Not all engines are naturally balanced, some worse than others. Inline 4's are horrible and often use balance shafts, v8's are pretty crappy which gives them that awesome "v8 rumble". I6 and v12 are perfectly balanced by nature. This lends themselves to a long engine life and smooth running. Their biggest drawbacks are length. It takes a lot more length to get a certain displacement out of 6 pistons straight in a line than side by side, and as thus, they are not a common passenger car engine.

Why does cummins (and many others) choose the I6 configuration? It is simply a very slight increase dependability. Does ford/international's v8 diesel undependable? Not at all. The powerstroke is a v8 as it makes it much easier to fit into a chassis, although interestingly enough, the ford chassis is big enough to fit the cummins in as well. Now, to finally answer the question, why does cummins 5.9l make torque at a lower rpm (since they both produce nearly the same with the powerstroke having more power on average for about 10 years) than the v8 ford? Simply put, it has to. Maximum allowable/safe rpm is governed by valve train (or even more simplified, valve spring pressure) and rotating assembly weight. It is exactly the same reason racers use lightened cranks, pistons, and rods...to lose rotational mass. With only having 6 pistons, the cummins version cannot spin the same rpm as a v8. The v8 has its rotating mass divided over more pistons (or more area). The v8 can spin faster in effect making more horsepower.

There is another reason which specially starts the myth and starts to get a little deep. At an even torque, the i6 must produce (and does in real life) more torque per cylinder than a v8. At a given rpm, there is a fixed number of power cycles for each engine, and the i6 has the CAPABILITY to produce more power per cylinder per cycle than a v8. Does this actually happen? Yes. It happens because the auto makers tune the v8s to make power up higher. Cummins made the v903 (15L) V8 engine to put into tanks. An i6 would not fit. Cummins also has a 15l inline 6. Comparing the highest powered models, the 903 put out 600 MORE horsepower than the i6 and 200ft lb more torque. How did it get so much extra horsepower? It is all in the RPM. They could turn that 903 cubic inch monster faster than they turn a cummins 5.9l, and it made more torque in the process. When it comes down to it, torque vs rpm is all in the tuning, and on a nearly consistent basis the v8 is tuned for RPM.

Since I specifically own internationals (and fords with international engines), work on and drive cummins engines, I will say with all of the seriousness that I can...a v8 is a good towing engine. They have totally different driving styles and someone who drives the other truck will not like it unless they are aware of the difference. They are drive completely different, but if you drive them like they are meant to be, they will both tow perfectly fine.

Diesel engines love to work and run their best near full power. I would not want to run a gas engine full throttle for very long as a personal opinion, but you can run a diesel full power nearly all its life without any problems. Truck drivers do this every day. Their trucks are generally speaking so underpowered that they have to hold it to the floor to go anywhere, which anyone who has got behind a slow accelerating truck can attest to. The engines are "small" for FE. I would almost guarantee that your dad's awesome FE is rested on this theory right here.

Do NOT add automatic trans fluid to your diesel. Does it work on the old engines? Well, yes, but with today's technology there are much better alternatives. PowerService is a very common item that I personally use, but there are many other, even better alternatives out there that you can research.


*The new 6.7l cummins and new ISX does have a throttle valve which works on conjunction with the VGT turbo to limit air under certain conditions for emissions only.

**There are direct injection gasoline engines in which the fuel injector is also directly in the cylinder. However, the spark plug ignites the fuel/air mixture in a very similar way as the conventional design. However, due to the direct injection, they are able to raise the compression ratios up to around 16:1, diesel levels, and extract nearly the same efficiency from the gas engine as a diesel.

[Bob]

Howdy Brad ! and welcome to the forum !
 I am not a EXPERT in anything...but I do know the addition of Hydroxy gas into a Diesel's air intake
will actually increase the MPG of the engine... simply because I have been told by 3 or 4 of the guys that actually did it... and I don't doubt their word one bit.
...
it is good to see differing opinions. it keeps the mind working and exploring different ideas!
...
 My Step Dad's Perkins was a 350CID 6 cyl and it replaces a 390v8 ford engine... I never really thought about which engine has the most Horse power simply because the Perkins out worked the v8 hands down, but as you said, it may well have been the way the ending was used and NOT a good measure of the HP.
Horse power is a measure of work done over time.... the V8 did less work much faster than the Perkins did... the Perkins did More work but slower... although the Hp rating was much higher on the V8.... "in its every day use" the Perkins Diesel worked much much better. (different strokes for different folks Dad liked Slow turning engines...hehehe he never got the v8 above 4 grand in his
life! LOL)
...
..
anyway... you made it sound as if a Hydroxy unit will not work at all in a Diesel engine because of its fundamental differences in the engine design... and that's simply not true.
WHY it works is anyone's guess but it does WORK... I don't think the gains in MPG are as big as the gains in a gasoline engine... but they are still there.
...
 Keep an open Mind Brad and use your knowledge to teach others, in the proccess you too will learn more.
...
Good to have you with us
Bob......

[Brad4321]

I am not saying that hydroxy does nothing for diesels, I am just not has confident about the flame front theory behind it. However, I did have a conflicting idea earlier today. Diesels do have one minor flaw in their injection. By injecting the fuel at the same time it ignites, there isn't any natural dispersion of the fuel in the chamber before combustion. In theory, you could have an oxygen depletion at the injection point and a surplus around the sides. Nearly all diesels (and gas engine alike) have some sort of swirl design to get the gasses moving within the cylinder, but many of the older diesels do not do this. The hydrogen could cause a more even burn and use of all of the available oxygen. This could explain the less dense black smoke reported under hydrogen (a more complete burn of available fuel, this less fuel would be needed). The other thing to keep in mind is hydroxy is a fuel and although it takes quite a bit to make a difference in a large diesel engine, every little bit helps. This could also explain the smaller overall gains experiences with diesels over gas. It seems to me that there are many more gains to be had as far as flame fronts go on gas vs. diesel. It would be interesting to see some results on a direct injection gas as although there is a delay between the fuel injection and spark (to my knowledge, not really researched this), the results would be close to that of a DI diesel.

The old FE engines, as much as I love them, are horribly inefficient. You could put that engine on a go-kart and be lucky to hit 15mpg. That said, they are a true powerhouse in their upper models (427 and 428) especially with new aftermarket cylinder heads. I have a 352 big block for my drag car (a destroked 390).

Horsepower sells cars, torque wins races. Torque moves things and is a measurable quantity. Horsepower is a calculated figure. Horsepower is a good measurement on how fast something will get done, specifically acceleration, but torque is where it is at. A 350 cubic inch diesel (and gas as well) is very small for a 1 ton truck loaded to capacity (and well beyond as we all do). The engine would have to work very hard to pull the truck at its GVCWR, which is the key to its success. There has been an argument over time on which gets better FE...less throttle at a higher rpm, or more throttle at a lower rpm. With our overdrive transmissions, it is obvious which one has won.

Once I get a good grasp of generator design and have large, solid generator I will install it on my diesel truck as it still is a daily driver. I am wanting to experiment on my ranger in case I make a big mistake...

There is one more thing to consider if anyone is wanting to put a hydroxy system on a diesel. Diesels ignite due to the heat of compression. If you hook up a compression gauge to a freshly broke in gasoline engine, you will get approximately 200 psi. In a comparable diesel, you will get about 800 psi. Gas engines typically run from 8:1 to 10:1 compression, where diesels operate from 15:1 to 23:1 compression ratios. The temperature of the air in the cylinder at the point of injection is approximately 1000 degrees. My point behind this is, although I do not know the flash point of hydroxy, I am nearly certain is it much lower than this. It is quite possible, in fact I would almost guarantee that the hydrogen would ignite before the engine actually fired (giving it a "knock" or predetonation). Even as stout as diesels are built, this would be very bad for the engine. Of course, this would only occur with a significant amount of hydroxy and I am guessing wouldn't be very noticeable or even exist under 2lpm/cui (since diesels do not limit available air). Similar things happen when running a diesel on propane. It is my current half-drunken theory that this problem would prevent a diesel from being ran on 100% hydroxy unless internal modifications are made (such as finding out the flash point and reducing the compression ratio down enough to that the hydroxy would ignite at near the correct point in the cycle). Of course, since nearly all diesels today are turbocharged, when you put compressed air into the cylinder, it effectively raises the dynamic compression ratio creating more heat on compression. This is why turbocharged diesels typically run from 15:1 (cummins) to 17.5:1 (international), while N/A diesels run 20:1-23:1. The turbo's boost makes up the 5psi static compression loss.

I am not one to post much, I just thought I would say a few things in this thread since it is my thing, but I will be around for a while. I have a CRX HF (it is a two seater designed for High Fuel economy, hence the HF, very small car) that I am wanting to get very good FE out of do to my long distance driving (mainly do to visiting family). The car gets 55mpg stock, and along with aerodynamic mods, I would love to get near 100mpg. The car has a ways to go before being a driver (currently has no drivetrain and is getting painted).

[Bob]

Brad:
  You mentioned that a diesel injects the fuel at the exact time it is ignited... and to my knowledge this is false... but then again I am not up on Newer models or their design...
yes they have High injection pressure from the pump but that is not because it injects it on the compression stroke, typically to my understanding it is at the same time that the valve opens on a 4 stroke diesel that the injectors inject the fuel into the cylinder. on a 2 stroke diesel it is no doubt different I have always assumed that the injection of the fuel was done at the time the Intake ports were opened, to allow a good mix of the fuel/air before compression , even though its only a few milliseconds before the compression stroke happens,  mixing that fuel with the air is very important.
if the fuel is indeed injected on the compression stroke on some models (which wouldn't surprise me!)
then they have to be a rather inefficient running engine... but I am sure, if they make them that way they worked most of the problems out of them....
 I wouldn't buy a diesel that injects the fuel at the same time it is ignited . to me it just sounds counter productive.
 My work on Diesels has been limited to older ones, mostly 4 stroke diesels, although I have worked on 2 cycle diesels in Kabota tractors and they were really a nice reliable engine.( I think those were 2 stroke, not positive)
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at any rate... the flash point for Hydroxy gas is about the same as gasoline/air... I remember looking it up but I can't remember where I did... but as you say, gasoline and Diesel are 2 different things
the flash point for diesel as compared to gasoline is much higher... so your probably right there in assuming a Knock/ping possibility .... if I were you and had a diesel I would find out what the flash point for "Browns gas" REALLY is and stop guessing.  However on the older diesels You could change the timing of the pump to make up for the easier to ignite fuel... I don't know about your trucks.
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you made me think about Diesels and pouring in more fuel for more power as compared to how it works in a gas rig... and for that I thank you... I never looked at it like that but your explanation holds true.. the subtle differences between the 2 engines has always intrigued me, but Just like the gasoline engine the Diesels of Old metered the amount of air coming in as well as the amount of fuel they injected. so Just like the gasoline rig the diesels of Old added more air and More fuel upon acceleration.....
 this Must be so or you could not keep the proper ratio of fuel to air in the cylinder...
if the air intake was Unrestricted, in the diesel engine the engine would be running very very lean at idle and Rich at full throttle.... which I know a diesel COULD DO... but its not very efficient to do it that way... its far better to give the engine a certain ratio of fuel to air in each throttle setting, no matter where its position is, you save fuel and the temperature is more or less constant. and the engine won't miss a beat.... it will run fine at idle instead of surging or struggling because of too lean of a fuel to air ratio.
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A diesel Like a gasoline engine runs on small Puffs of the correct fuel to air ratio.... most of the time the engine is in a state of high vacuum because of that.... in other words  at 2000rpm  your giving each cylinder 1 cup of fuel/air mix.... but the cylinder's volume is a full quart !....so the explosions in the cylinders are small booms not big ones <GRIN>
this is the principal of either engine, you do not have to fill the volume of the cylinders as your driving down the road.... actually the only time they are anywhere near full is at full throttle or when under a turbo charger. Understanding this is paramount to saving fuel .
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f.w.i.w.
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Bob........

[Brad4321]

All diesels that I am aware of inject the fuel as it is ignited. The reason is simply because it has to. The autoignition temperature of diesel is 410 degrees. If you were to premix the diesel with the air and then compressed it, you would have no control over the ignition point. The diesel would simply ignite when this temperature was reached. They fuel ignites as it comes out of the injector so they can have precise control over the ignition timing. If they did not, they would have no control over it since it is temperature related. This is no different than igniting it with a spark plug as far as timing goes. In fact, new diesels have "multi shot" injectors, which means that the injector fires multiple times per power stroke instead of all at once. This is to reduce engine noise.

Diesels engine smoothness is not related to air/fuel mixture at all like a gas engine. Running super lean at idle does not make it run rough or effect the engine in any way. It does make the engine run really cool and idle which is one of the reasons it is really hard to warm up a diesel by letting it idle. Running super lean does effect the emissions as there is a stoichiometry for a diesel as well for emissions, hence the reasoning for the newer engines having throttle valves. Diesels tend to knock and run "rough" compared to a gas engine because for all purposes, they are "knocking" or predetonating every time they fire. By making the injector fire multiple times, you get 5-7 "small" knocks instead of one big one quieting the engine down. This is why diesels are all forged internals, sometimes even forged steel for pistons, which drastically decreases their max safe RPM. This is also why diesels tend to cost more to buy than gas engines. Each diesel is built using similar parts to a gas race engine, which also drastically helps extend their lifespan.

Your description of vacuum is correct for a gas engine. A diesel never has any real vacuum, maybe a couple inches of just intake/head restriction until the turbo kicks in, but that is it. A gas engine must run near stoichiometry all of the time, it just restricts the amount of air at lower throttle so it can inject less fuel. A diesel just injects the fuel it needs for the given power. Both work just fine, and most likely the diesel method is slightly more efficient. At anything less than full, black smoke throttle, there is a better chance of getting a complete burn on a diesel than a gas with an inefficient combustion chamber design. Diesel engines are more fuel efficient than gas engines for two basic reasons: higher compression ratios and slightly more BTU's per gallon of fuel (147,000 BTU) vs (125,000 BTU). You can increase fuel economy (which comes down to engine efficiency) drastically by raising the compression ratio and running (some) aftermarket heads. Like someone said before, most things that increase power will also increase economy.

As a side note, I found that the gas autoignition temperature is 475 degrees, or actually more than that of diesel. However, the flash point of gas is -40 compared to 143 for diesel. This is why you can literally throw a match in a bucket of diesel and it will go out. On one cold morning, I took a small propane torch to a cup of diesel and melted the cup before the diesel would ignite. Diesel injection pressures are so high to properly atomize the fuel as it is injected into the cylinder. They atomize the fuel much finer than gas injectors do.

[Bob]

Huh ! Very interesting ! All these years My ASSUMPTION of how the Diesel works has been Wrong !
thank you for the correction !
 I know you speak the truth because you explained the REASON so well...  THANK YOU!
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 See guys ! Ya  learn something new every day weather ya want to or not! LOL !
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 Just that one point the "igniting of the fuel at the time of the injection", Changes for me how the engine actually works, simply because if you change that one point MANY things have to follow, as Brad has so graciously explained.
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I thought the reason Diesel engines we so Noisy was because  they were compressing the fuel/air MIX
and it ignited due to compression , this induced ignition happens somewhat uncontrolled, hence the knocks, but the heavy makeup of the engine pulls it through anyway. BUT if that were true when the engine was HOT the timing would come earlier and earlier till the engine would start running backwards. So it has to be Igniting the fuel at the time of injection, giving you CONTROL of the timing at which the cylinders fire off...
it also gives a very good reason for the extremely high injection pump pressures... it has to over come the pressure of COMPRESSION in order to inject the fuel.(not to mention at such high pressure the Diesel would be atomized completely I'd think!) the injection pressure would have to be higher than the compression pressure in order to facilitate atomization, it would instantaneously vaporize in the squeeze of compression with all the air of the cylinder,sense the injection pressure is higher than the compression/ignition pressure... it would be very broken up, probably down to the molecule level.
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Now I gott'a go look at the O'l mercadies Diesel engine I have out there setting under a tarp and see if there is a butterfly on the intake....
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BOY that makes my head spin LOL....trying to correlate all I know about Diesel's with this new information heheheheh.
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Thank you Brad you are a good teacher. and THANK YOU for sticking with it until I understood, as many people wouldn't have, they would just have left me to my ignorance....
 and that's not a nice thing to do in my book ! <GRIN>
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 hehe Man that's Neet it makes sense now...
 live and learn !
Thank you Brad !
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Bob.....
 

[Brad4321]

Want to get really confused? If your mercedes is older (80's era, possibly into the 90's), I am pretty sure they are indirect injected. Here is the best picture to demonstrate:

http://www.sweethaven02.com/Automotive01/fig0503.gif

The injector sits in a smaller chamber connected to the main combustion chamber. Combustion starts in the pre-combustion chamber then works its way into the main chamber to push the piston down.

IDI (indirect diesel injection) engines are long gone for the most part. They are an old, fairly complicated in comparison, technology used to reduce engine noise and stress on the internals, but they lack the efficiency of the newer direct injection diesels. Heavy duty (semi and above) engines have been direct injection for decades (I want to say 1940's, but that is a guess), but pickups and cars just started to get direct injection about 15 years ago.

Wikipedia has a good article explaining it all if you are interested in the details.

It occurred to me last night that I have seen a diesel ran on pure hydrogen (not hydroxy). I do not know the specifics on it, but I do know they replaced the diesel injector with an actual spark plug, and still used a turbo to inject air. I never heard of any issues with hydrogen interacting with the metal, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen...or they didn't use some type of special material/coating. I suppose the only real info I can offer on this is that it was ignited by a spark plug.

[Bob]

hehehe Yah ... but remember Pure Hydrogen doesn't react the same as Hydroxy gas (browns gas)
pure Hydrogen is harder to ignite has a much slower flame front and is in general 
"neutered" Hydroxy gas...hehehe its amazing how much of a difference little oxygen makes !
 ....
I know of about 4 people that have injected Hydroxy gas into the air intake on their diesel trucks
one said there was no difference at all as far as the gas mileage goes the other 3 calmed a substantial increase in MPG  although the increase isn't stellar like in some car applications
there was definitely an increase by a few miles per gallon .
 I agree with your assessment Brad, that the increase must be from the Hydroxy gasses ability to Help burn up the un-ignited fuel... the most increase I've seen in a diesel is about 4MPG, where I have seen over 10mpg increase in gasoline engines.
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I think partially because of the Size of the engines being dealt with and the amount of Hydroxy gas being used per Cubic inch displacement...
 its almost inevitable that if its a gas engine its smaller than the V8 (unless its a mercadies or VW! LOL) because the trucks with the diesel engines in them are usually Very big. 5 to 7 liter at least, where my pickup has a 2 liter engine in it (R22 toyota 2.4liter)
I have yet to try a hydroxy unit on a big v8 or large displacement engine.... but I do know that about 1LPM to 2LPM per liter of engine displacement works purdy darn good in either gas or diesel engines...
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SO what kind of cell are you making Brad ?
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Bob........

 

[Bob]

Ok Brad... explain this... this is a pic of the Mercadies engine...its a 4 stroke diesel that has seen better days but still runs good, its the transmition that pops out of gear that is the major problem with it....
you'll notice at the top of the tall picture the air butterfly, it is precisely controlled by the pumps throttle position, so that makes it metering in a tiny amount of air at Idle so it has the proper fuel to air ratio in the fuel/air mix 
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However, if they are firing the fuel air mix at the same time it is being injected near TDC somewhere
(if my timing of the engine and memory is correct) in this silly engine it is Running most of the time in a vacuum , just like a gas rig.... right ?... sense the air IS restricted each cylinder gets the proper amount of fuel/air mix and can run on small explosions just as a gas rig does...(obviously)
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you said that a diesel's air intake is not restricted like a gas rig is , but this one obviously is
do you mean Some diesels operate with no air control ? if so which ones, because I don't ever remember seeing a diesel engine without an air butterfly of some sort.
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Bob.....

[Manta]

Just had a look at an engine manual for the 1.7 ltr Opel Diesel. Fuel injection is quoted as commencing at 3 to 5 degrees BTDC at idle.

Manta

[Brad4321]

I usually only work on heavy duty engines (11L and above), but I do play around with midrange (5L-10L) on the rare occasion. The smaller car stuff is completely out of my experience. I really don't know what they are trying to accomplish there, but once I get a sec I will research it as I am curious. Outside of the new 2010 models, I have never seen a diesel with any sort of intentional intake restriction, but like I said, I have never touched a car diesel of any type.

I found this in doing an internet search which seems plausible. Detroits had something similar for a while.

"The butterfly plate you mention is used as a safety device. Mercedes vents blow-by gases from the crankcase back in to the intake manifold. Being a diesel, if blow-by gets bad as the engine wears, the engine will keep running when shut off by actually running on the blow-by gases and engine oil. The butterfly valve is designed to shut off air supply, thus preventing a runaway engine."

I am currently have with a fairly standard tero cell. I am just playing around right now. Once I get comfortable with it I will try a randy cell. The tube designs interest me the most but also seem the most complicated to master. I would love to be able to make a cell produce about 14lpm under 150amps as they I could test it on my diesel at a decent 2l/cui. That should be really interesting.

You are right about the hydrogen vs hydroxy, but I still see a diesel with a spark plug igniting it if someone was to run it pure. A diesel base would be an excellent start with their fairly good durability.

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The pump very likely changes time of injection at different rpm just like gas.

[Bob]

Manta:
 Just so you know...timing on the Mercadies engine is precarious at best... to tell the truth I don't know how they run as well as they do.... because when you adjust the injection pump's timing you do it by the FIRST DRIP out of a fuel spicket that you stick in line instead of the injection line to N0#1 cylinder... it is Supposed to coenside with the timing marks on the crankshaft but you know and I know a DRIP is not the most accurate of measuring devices... so what happens is you do it about 1000 times and try to get it to be consistent at dripping at the proper time...
 When I tore into that Mercadies for my mom to try and get it running for her I was appalled at the instructions on how to time it... I couldn't believe that anyone would manufacture an engine with such a crude way of timing the engine... I found out later that you are supposed to Tune the engine by ear, to where it sounds better.... and that the drip method is just to get you in the ball park. LOL ! (this is better ? HAHAHAHA!)
 but oddly enough it does work and the engine has been running good for years although it mostly sets ,because nobody will drive it because the transmition may pop into neutral and not be able to get it into any gear ... so your stranded !
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there are 3 Mercadies engines here 2 in old cars and one to swap out of the old beastie one of these days.
  My Mom Loved that car and it got a consistant 40mpg or better all the time... it reverted back to my Sisters car after Mom died and I have been trying to get it going for her but without much luck
I think to fix it I will have to remove the trans completely... and without a shop to work in I am reluctant to do that! LOL
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I do know if the tractor engine gives up the ghost I will put the diesel engine it instead of trying to find another tractor engine.
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Brad:
 If I remember correctly Hydroxy gas HAS to be ignited it will not ignite from compression or heat which seams odd I know but that is what I remember from my reasearch, Knowing this means on a gasoline engine your safe from Pre ignition if you set your timing properly...... the problem is when Hydroxy gas does ignite it burns so fast it out runs the rest of the fuel in the cylinder (because of the extreamily fast flame front) but in a diesel it would stand to reason that the diesel when ignited sets off the Hydroxy gas and they both blow up togather
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 I may be in error in this , but its what I remember reading, I suggest checking it out yourself.
I do know Pinging with Hydroxy gas being added to the air in a gasoline engine is common. and can be alleviated by simply changing the timing to closer to TDC, it isn't because the Hydroxy gas is self igniting, but rather because the hydroxy gas makes all the fuel go up at once instead of taking time to ignite ... in other words when your timing on a gas engine is at 12 degrees BTDC and you add Hydroxy gas to the system you'll more than likely get a bad ping or pre-ignition because the hydroxy gas makes the ignition happen much faster... so changing the timing to 8degrees or even 6degrees is usually enough to cure the problem.
 it stands to reason that the same can be done for a diesel engine if problems are encountered there as well.
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Bob.....