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Author Topic: The big question  (Read 2091 times)
Manta
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« on: November 05, 2008, 09:54:18 am »

Bob,

Some time ago you posted this line,

...Can a single multi-plate cell produce enough Hydroxy gas to power an auto at 100%...?
I think that is obvious ! Yes it can but it takes a large amount of amperage to do that, even with the most efficient of cells....

-------------------------------------------------

My question for all is,  Do you,  after taking everything into consideration,  believe that 100% is truly obtainable ?
After reading through tons of documentation on this and the other site I am tempted to say NO.  The amount needed  by the engine simply can't be met.  Except maybe at idle. I will accept that gains in MPG can be made.  But not the full 100%
The kicker is the apparent fact that burning hydroxy will only produce the same amount (slightly less,  actually) of power as was used in it's production.  hence you will need an external supply to augment the onboard generating system.
As they say,  extraordinary claims need extraordinary proof;  and I don't believe we are getting that proof.

Fess up guys,  what do you really think.

Manta

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Bob
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« Reply #1 on: November 05, 2008, 10:07:24 am »

What do I REALY think Huh?
 well thats easy .. I believe if I had unlimited funds I'ed be running 100% hydroxy now....
we already have the knowledge needed, the engine dies not need as much hydroxy gas as you think it does
and idleing a 2.5Liter engine on 3LPM proves that ...yes it will take a great deal of Hydroxy gas but not as much as you think... My guess is 12 to 15LPM for my truck to cruse on...
thats a great deal of Hydroxy gas to me but it is NOT un-obtainable !
20 to 25LPM will make it a sure thing indeed...
if I had the altenators needed and the cells made I could do it now ... and I will,its justa matter of time.
...
Bob........

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Cowboy
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« Reply #2 on: November 05, 2008, 11:48:02 am »

I think it is truly obtainable, but as Bob says, our funds limit our research and our products.  Perhaps it's not obtainable by a plate design, but a 'perpetual' type machine running hydroxy is 100% feasible.  It's been rumored to me that their's a company in Switzerland with a small perpetual machine in it's lobby.  But that defies current physics, so... yeah.  If you can sustain an ICE at idle with hho only, then you can run it full bore hho only.  It's just a matter of getting it right.  I've been out of hte testing business as of late due to life happening, but Once I get back into it I'll be using everything that's in here to design my machine.  It will be a nice machine.  Unfortunately it may be another 2 yrs before that happens because of other happenings of life.  Hopefully the resources will be available over that period, but I'm not counting on it.  Maybe you guys will have it figured out by then and I won't have to hurt my brain making it work.    Shocked
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Bob
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« Reply #3 on: November 05, 2008, 02:40:25 pm »

Manta: the problem is Most everyone calculates the amount of Hydroxy gas needed to run a I.C. engine
like this... engine displacement x rpm = amount of Hydroxy gas needed....
....
this is OBVIOUSLY so wrong it screams at you.... but people still do it this way because that is what they know about an engine....
...
they do not take into consideration that it only takes a small puff of the hydroxy gas to fire the cylinder... you don't have to fill the cylinder each time it comes around ...EVEN at FULL THROTTLE
... if you did there wouldn't be any vacume let to suck the gas into the cylinder....
...
and when do you drive at full throttle ? so how much gas are you going to use ?
...
it is very hard to estimate how much Hydroxy gas it will take to run an engine...any engine
untill you do it this engine takes 10LPM to run... but that does not mean all engines will run on 10LPM
... Obviously...
people try to say ok there is X amount of BTU's in gasoline and X amount of BTU's in Hydroxy gas so it will take x amount of Volume of Hydroxy gas to run the engine... when a BTU is a "British Thermal Unit"
 or HEAT ...not a measure of the gases explosive power.... so its compairing apples to oranges !
...
the nay sayers are extreamily good at making it sound very scientific when they compair 2 seperate things ! even guys that we think are on OUR side still mess it up when it comes to 100% running Hydroxy gas... you can make an engine idle on hydroxy gas but when it comes to the hudge volumes needed to run at full throttle there is no way you can produce that much Hydroxy gas !... sound about right ?
if it takes as much as 1000LPM it can still be done.... it may not be practical, but it can be done.
but I'm here to tell you it ain't going to take anywhere near as much as most people think, it will take more than I am capable of makeing at the moment of that I am quite sure, but much less than I am able to make in the back of my pickup bed with 2- 200 amp altenators.... of that I am also quite sure...  I also know I can still drive my truck even with 2-200 amp altenators on it pulling 400amps
because that is only going to cost about 20hp at the most(more like 16hp)
so whats happening is I am useing 20 hp to make 200hp... and conventional physicssays ya can't make more than you put in ! ...... well Obviously its WRONG then !
because the numbers are there... I can make enough to power the truck of 2 big altenators
the engine is a 2.4liter engine and I am guessing I only need 12 to 20LPM to run 4000rpm with a load
less if I keep the RPM to 2500rpm and below....
so whats not to believe ?
why is it hard to see that it can be done ? are you reading too many articals that say it can't be done and why ? and believeing their flawed reasoning ?
I read them too just to see if I may have missed something and I have never found one thats right yet !
don't listen to them their all wet, build it and you'll see that it can be done !
AHAHAHAH
Bob......

 
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KF-Puffin1
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« Reply #4 on: November 05, 2008, 07:32:54 pm »

To be honest with you ...NO i dont think its possible while useing plates to do the job.....i think its going to take a different approach to achieve the amount of gas that we want to put out at a decent amperage.


was thinking it may take  21- 18 inch plates in a tero style cell to do that job.
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #5 on: November 05, 2008, 08:34:55 pm »

I was thinking 19-18" plates might produce better. Just my 2cents though.
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randy
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« Reply #6 on: November 05, 2008, 10:01:45 pm »

I know for a fact that I can get 12 LPM from 6 washer cells dead cold!!!
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #7 on: November 05, 2008, 10:05:37 pm »

At what amps Randy?
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randy
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« Reply #8 on: November 05, 2008, 10:06:54 pm »

120 amps
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candyman55
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« Reply #9 on: November 05, 2008, 10:34:35 pm »

I am not sure that the brute force method is the anwser either. But from what I have learned both personaly and from every one else in the past few months. I have no doubt that 100% HHO Vehicles are gonna happen.  Smiley
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randy
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« Reply #10 on: November 05, 2008, 11:07:58 pm »

I've all ready achieved 2 LPM @ 20 amps dead cold with one washer cell, but as you know it heats up it becomes a runaway cell. manta may have found a cure for this, if not I think I've found another cure.
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Bob
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« Reply #11 on: November 06, 2008, 06:32:13 am »

Thank you Randy !
12LPM at 120amps is Not un-obtainable....

Now Randy You already know that your truck will idle on 4LPM... infact if I remember right
you had it running at 2000RPM on hydroxy gas only ... correct ?
...
So...what is stopping you from running it to 3000RPM with 12LPM ?
... will that work do you think ?
...
I think it will, but my engine is a bit smaller than yours and has a bunch less stuff on it to eat up
the power ( not being a 4x4)
...
I realize that heat is going to be a big issue when pulling that much gas out of the water ...
so a cooling system is going to be a necessity  I don't think we can do it without a cooling system
... in fact I'm not even going to try !
...
  I'm going to try very soon to budget a 200Amp altenator....
and get this thing started if nothing else...
...
what I am wondering about is the need for  Mutable cells... by that I mean, if 6 cells at 120 amps will give you 12LPM   3 ( or 4) cells at 120 amps will give you slightly more than 12LPM... much more heat though but, if you have to have a cooling system anyway... where is the problem ?
...
there is a point where Not enough Plate area comes into the picture... like 1 cell at 120 amps
 It can't produce 12LPM because there simply isn't enough plate surface area( at least I don't think so!) ... so rather than run into that barrior  have enough plate area to do the job but not too much more....
...
what ever you believe about weather it is obtainable or not there is alwayse other ways to do it.
the Arc Generator is known to produce Hudge amounts of Hydroxy gas with a very small ( in compairison)
power requirements... its Much more efficient... a cornish generator could be used if proper cautions are used...  but 100% is not that hard to obtain on paper... its doing it on a limited budget that is the hard part !
...
Bob........

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Manta
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« Reply #12 on: November 06, 2008, 07:09:33 am »

Well,  that covers a fair range of opinion.
Yes,  I have ,  just like the rest of you,  read all the 'no,  it can't be done' stuff. But To me it all comes down to the conservation of energy problem. i.e if it takes ten horse power to produce x amount of hydroxy,  then burning that x amount will only produce ten horse power;  less losses due to friction etc.  I know many disagree with this, but that is what physics says. NOW,  before I become persona non grata,  let me say that maybe there are ways around some of this problem,  and that is where the hope is.
Getting a small amount of hydroxy into the cylinders is in fact augmenting the 20% of oxygen that is already in the air. So we are not actually asking the hydroxy to do all the work. Maybe this is what is going on.  We'll see.
I don't go for the big amps route. I feel sure that most designs don't get best use from the cell.  Randy's idea seems to be an exception. Maybe that is the way to go.
The tube cell idea put forward by Fisher etc seemed full of promise,  but we still don't have a bottle fill test.
Amps * volts and the resistance in the cell produce heat. Are these big amp cells going to boil ?

What I find frustrating is that some promising reports fall short in critical areas. I take it that you all have read the report that shows a small four stroke engine being run of hydroxy alone. It ran this way for 6 second whilst being supplied from a balloon full of gas. Why didn't the builder have a cell supplying on board gas connected at the same time ? just to further prove his point.  Mind you,  his real point was that it needed more gas than it could produce.
But even if the whole thing eventually comes down to simply increasing the mpg through supllementing  with hydroxy,  that is a good thing.
Do I think it is worth the effort ?  I'm off to cut some bigger plates,  figure it out for yourself  Smiley Smiley

Manta
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hg2
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« Reply #13 on: November 06, 2008, 07:15:07 am »



   12 LPM at 120 amps sounds about right.This guy selling one that runs 200 amps Shocked at 15 LPM.He also carries cooling pumps and radiators for hho generators.


    http://www.hydroxiljugernut.com/
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Manta
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« Reply #14 on: November 06, 2008, 07:21:42 am »

hg2,
What you really need to know,  and when you find out please tell the rest of us,  is will 12 litre per minute run an engine ?  It is only 0.2 litre per second.

Manta
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