Electrolite/Catalyst

[Bob]

Howdy Abe !
 very interesting experiment... it needs a de-foaming agent added to it I think !
....
On the Koolaid ... If I remember correctly for a single "Randy Cell MkI" I use about 3 packets to achieve a 20 amp draw in a 1 gal cell container...
...
with 3 cells it took close to 40 or 50 packs... a huge amount !
..
I realy do Like the Koolaid as it is the cleanest running electrolyte I have found yet and it is the most heat tollerant.... much more than KOH...
the problem with Koolaid is achieveing the higher amp draw that we want... sometimes thats just plane impossable ! it totally depends on the cell and the setup though !
...
Bob.........

[abe]

Wow that would be kanda pricey.aroung 15 to20 dollars a gallon, have you tried lemon juce

[Bob]

nah its only about .20cents a pack at walmart... I bought a entire box of unsweetened lemonaid koolaid packets for 6 or 8 bucks.... still have a bunch in the glove box ! HAHAHAHA  I think there is like 100 to a box ...not sure on that !
...
Bob.......

[murf26]

How much??  I'm using sodium hydroxide(1/4 tsp) and don't seem to be getting much HHO.  My ammeter isn't even registering.  Any ideas?

[ROADKING]

I have used sodium hydroxide, and from my experience 1 tea spoon to a gallon of distilled water equaled about 15 amp on a dry cell with 1/16 spacing.

[Bob]

SODIUM is really BAD on your cells guys don't use it ! in any of its forms !
Potasium Hydroxide (KOH) is far far better... if you don't have that then use Lemonaid Koolaid
because The Sodium in Sodium Hydroxide is supposed to make green GOO...
and the goo is very conductive and also coats the plates....
now,... if you havn't experienced a goo problem using Sodium Hydroxide its shocking to me to say the least but please say so,... so I know !
...
when I used my KOH instead of the Koolaid it took about 1 tsp in my 1 gal container to get 20 amps for a single cell.... 5tsp when I used all 3 cells (all in the same bath)
in that configuration I ran my cell in series for about 3 months and it ran clean all that time but slowly changed color to a brown-ish color like weak coffee... I switched to parallel hookup and within 2 days had expresso ! and almost no output at all !
the reason I found out after I tore it down was normal steel nuts and washers in the container.... Not all of it was Stainless steel ...like I thought it was !
and I suspect the heat had a big part in the discoliration ...but I am not positive.
...
if your using 1/4tsp of Sodium Hydroxide you are barely drawing any amps... and thats why the output is low....
but I'm telling ya you need to get POTASIUM HYDROXIDE instead... that won't bugger up a all stainless steel cell at all !
or just go with koolaid ! hehehehehe
but I'ed get away from the drain cleaner or sodium Hydroxide fast if I were you or you'll have to clean each plate all over again.... you might be able to get it clean again with Muratic acid , used in swimming pools 100% for 10~15 min.... then dispose of carefully as its MEAN stuff.... then flush with high pressure water and rince good with distilled water.
... then go with KOH or lemmonaid...
really ...I had to go through it to learn... and it does indeed work better , by far!
....
Bob........

[H²+O]

Bob have you ever read the ingredients in the lemonade - kool-aid? It goes,, Ingredients: CITRIC ACID, CALCIUM PHOSPHATE, MALTODEXTRIN, SALT, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% OF..................

SALT! (isn't that suppost to be bad?)
Think the mixture of Calcium Phosphate has any thing to do with any thing?
why not use strait Citric acid?

I looked up Citric acid on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid and down the page (if you don't want to read it) it says,..
Water softening
Citric acid's ability to chelate metals makes it useful in soaps and laundry detergents. By chelating the metals in hard water, it lets these cleaners produce foam and work better without need for water softening. In a similar manner, citric acid is used to regenerate the ion exchange materials used in water softeners by stripping off the accumulated metal ions as citrate complexes.The saturation point for citric acid and water is 59%

OK, The saturation point for citric acid and water is 59% (not sure if that is by volume or weight..)
and the saturation point for KOH and water is 28-33% by weight
What are your figurines BOB on those numbers (referring to what you have done already)?

well when i build my 'randy' cells I'll give it a go can't wait to get the stuff i ordered in!

When I got done roofin earlyer I was laying on the couch thinking about falling asleep and WAMMY!!! it hit me! an accurate HHO LPM Measure! (I'll post it in the Bubblier section when I get it all written down and figure out which parts I'm going to need). but basically it is something like this,,,, 
3" PVC pipe with cap on one end. the cap has 2 holes with fittings, one for hho/water intake and the other for water to the cell (I've been thinking about a few things to try so this might not make since till i get all the stuff tested and posted!), inside this PVC pipe closer to the top is a little up/down push rod switch (have no idea what you call it ), on the inside of the top it has a rubber gasket all around for support of...
the top piece is 2 - 2.5" PVC and has one hole for a fitting for a hose coming out the top of the cap but it also has some sort of electric gasket to completely stop the flow of HHO. on the outside of the pipe it has two plastic pieces stuck to it to flip the switch (measured for 1LMP With flow while tube is going down). and on the bottom outside of the pipe a ring of rubber for support and to get ALL the bubbles in there!
Hook all this up to a computer with the correct program and you get a LPM gauge that keeps track of each 1 liter you get and how long it takes! so if you leave it running all night you can come back and look at the log in the morning and whammy! precise measurements of hho production!!

Steve

[Bob]

No ! Not SALT in there Too !!!! ACK !
well, never the less, running lemonaid is the cleanest thing I have found... even if it has a small amount of salt in it....
  Randy and I both have ran out cells in Lemonaid for months and they stay shinnie !... it must be the citric acid in it that does the trick... thats my guess ! 
so why not try stright citric acid ?   it may be better...even if it doesn't have that Lemon Fresh Fregrance! LOL!
....
I know it takes allot of lemmon aid to reach the saturation point.... something like 50 to 60 packs to a gallon of water.... and then you get no further increase in conductivity
...so yah that sounds about right, KOH takes less to reach saturation but it will wind up giving a higher amp rating over all... i thought it was 38% for KOH though, but I don't trust my memory enough to debate it LOL !....hehehehe so what ever it is !
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on your Measureing device.... the resistance of the gasket on the bottom of your floating tube is going to give you problems.... but that is not the major problem.... getting rid of the gas in the tube once its full will be the trick ! otherwize it will not sink to trip the switch again.
...keep working on the idea , you will make a real good one I am sure, just keep after it till you succeed!
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I like the Floating Pop bottle method Myself, although it does not give you a LONG term run measurement at all, but you can re measure it after its been on all night!
....
Bob........

[Manta]

Here is a quick drawing of my measuring device. As you can see,  it is made from a three litre plastic bottle with the base cut off,  and a one litre bottle that acts as the actual measuring unit. And Yes,  I do know it says two litre on the drawing.  just noticed that.

The big bottle is supported in a couple of plywood rings and the little bottle is free to rise and fall between three guides.  So all I have to do is connect the cell under test (the only cell so far) to the pipe and then time it's movements.

I'll post a photo when I remember to get some batteries for my camera.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta...
How do you fill the center test bottle with water again for another test ?
....
Bob....

[Manta]

Bob,

You don't.
At the start the input pipe is not connected to the cell. The  top bottle (the float) is pushed down onto the pipe; so now it is full off water.(If a small weight is placed on top of the float it will fall down on it's own).
So,  Connect the pipe from the cell to the input pipe. The gas pushes the float up,  displacing the water.Since the float is far lighter than the water the float rises and the water stays as it is.
When the float is full of gas (that is,  pushed right up, which is one litre) all you have to do is disconnect the cell and the float bottle will sink back down pushing out the gas. And your ready to start again.

In an ideal world a couple of taps and connections will make things safer,  but I haven't got round to that yet.

The beauty of it is you can scale it up to any size you want. A 20 Litre poly drum is in the planning stage.

Manta

[Manta]

Bob,
Looking again at the drawing I see that it shows the pipe that is inside the bottle as blue (full of water) It should be empty. The water level comes to just below the pipe. The drawing below shows the position at the start of the test.

Manta

[Bob]

Ahhh ! OK I understand Now !
A very good method !....
looks easier than My Bottle in a bucket and keeps my hands out'a the water too !
... thanks !
Bob.......