Electrolite/Catalyst

[hydrotinkerer]

I noticed alot of different electrolite/catalyst are being used. I would like to know what you are using and why you made that choice. Please include the types you like and don't like. I have been using Naoh(sodium hydroxide) for 6 months now and have not had a problem. It is the only catalyst I have used so I have nothing to compare to. So if there is something better I'm all ears. All my gens are now dry cells now so I can run anything I want and I don't worry about heat.

[candyman55]

I have tried several NOAH, KOH, Citric Acid, Vinegar, and am now going to try Methanol as soon as I finish reassembling my generator. So far KOH is the winner. But I have really high hopes for Methanol.

[hydrotinkerer]

Candyman was the amp draw the same on all of the catalyst you tried? If so was the gas production rates so different?

[Bob]

I've tried Salt,Baking soda,KOH,Lemonaid,Vinegar, and stright water....
for me Lemonaid is what I keep comeing back to... the KOH seams to coat the cell and render it useless if the KOH turns Coffee brown (which it has been doing lately with running the cells in parallel, more heat I guess.)
so far I think Lemonaid works just as good as KOH without the bad points of KOH... so thats why I use lemonaid Koolaid (un sweetened).
...
vinegar turned coffee brown and lost amprage draw and was hard to get enough amp draw with it.
bakeing soda made tons of Green GOO ... coated the plates and output practically quit.
salt was the same as Baking soda.
stright water works but I wanted more amp draw than 5 amps ! <GRIN>
...
Koh is good... as long as it don't turn colors on you...I used it for months with no problem it stayed clear, only had a slight foam problem at times... but with more heat it will burn and turn to dark coffee color and when it does that get it out of the cell fast, as it will cook onto the plates and you have to clean it with Muratic acid to get it clean then.
...
I have seen the Koolaid foam a few times just after installing it... but the problem seams to go away
with use.... no burning no discoloration, stays clean but is hard to ge High amp draw with it...takes many packs to get to 15 amps cold 30amps hot....
and it will freeze !...
....
Bob............

[Too Many Secrets]

BS or salt is a big NO. Don't use it on anything larger then paperclips and paper-cup. KOH, NOAH or KoolAid is good. Frankly I'm not thrilled working with Lye. KoolAid has worked for me, with great results and I don't need to 'space suit up' just to add a bit to my cell. I also don't have to worry about the possibility of lye mixing with my aluminum engine parts.

[hydrotinkerer]

Bob, Using 15amp cold on Koh and koolaid is the gas production about the same? Do you have a lpm measure for both? In my type gens I'm not worried about any heat problems. Does the foam from koolaid go away on its own or do you have to flush it out?

Secrets, Have you had a foaming problem with koolaid? Do you have a lpm on paper clips and cup?

I went to the store looking for citric acid. I found some in the canning area. I took the stuff home put it in my gen and it worked great. Atleast for 30min. After 30min it stopped producing and the stuff got really thick. I told my wife about it and she started reading the box. Here it comes: The stuff I bought was called "Sure Gell" it for making jelly. Guess what I had a gen full of? JELLY . You talk about a pain to clean out, it took forever. You guys needed a good laugh. I can tell you that stuff doesn't work.

[randy]

jello, ya never told me that one, now that's funny there, musta been a real pain to clean out.

[geezer]

Candyman...careful with methanol there are lots of plastics that it will destroy. it will eat up plastic in line fuel filters.

[Too Many Secrets]

Bob, Using 15amp cold on Koh and koolaid is the gas production about the same? Do you have a lpm measure for both? In my type gens I'm not worried about any heat problems. Does the foam from koolaid go away on its own or do you have to flush it out?

Secrets, Have you had a foaming problem with koolaid? Do you have a lpm on paper clips and cup?

I went to the store looking for citric acid. I found some in the canning area. I took the stuff home put it in my gen and it worked great. Atleast for 30min. After 30min it stopped producing and the stuff got really thick. I told my wife about it and she started reading the box. Here it comes: The stuff I bought was called "Sure Gell" it for making jelly. Guess what I had a gen full of? JELLY . You talk about a pain to clean out, it took forever. You guys needed a good laugh. I can tell you that stuff doesn't work.

No foaming from the KoolAid here.

As for the paper cups, they work great, light weight, expandable, HOWEVER they are tough to get a good seal on so no lpm results as of yet...

[Bob]

If I remember correctly the LPM from both KOH and Kolaid was right at 1lpm for both at 15ampsofcorse thats not a very good output for 3 cells so I messed with it till I got 2LPM by removeing one of the 3 cells... that helped a bunch... eather KOH or Koolaid seams to produce the same actually... foaming does go away without any intervention at all.... dunno why....
....
I looked in to the hydroxy cell tonight as I checked the oil on the truck and the Koolaid is light brown
.... I gott'a have something rusting in there causeing the color change in the electrolite
but I don't know what it is...... I guess I'll have to tear it completely down to find it and use only what a magnet won't pick up !!!!!!
...
sense the wife is having to drive the truck again while I wait for wheel berrings for her car
the cell will get no use at all, so I might take it off and turn the bypass valve off !
...the truck seamed to have problems starting tonight , it was very cold, ice on the windshield and all that... about 1/4" of hail on the ground from yesterday still, so its not melting much ( had 3")
I'm thinking its time to pull the cell till warmer weather hits sense I have yet to come up with a Antifreeze.... the Koolaid was not frozen though so thats a good sign... I have no idea why not , it should have been !...
...
Bob.........

[hydrotinkerer]

I ordered Koh today from AAA chemical. I also picked up some koolaid and I still have my Naoh. I'm all set to see which one I like best.

[candyman55]

Candyman was the amp draw the same on all of the catalyst you tried? If so was the gas production rates so different?

I really didn't try all of the electrolytes at the same time nor did I use them all in the same electrolizer, but KOH seemed to acccelerate the production and maintain the amperage better than all of the rest. I think that most of the problems with KOH started when I increased the amperage above 30 and increased the temps above the 100 deg. mark.

[Manta]

Candyman55,
I don't know if you have used methanol before,  maybe from the bio fuel scene, But I have to point out that methanol is a very dangerous substance if you are not careful. It is a neurotoxin and can blind you and can kill you if you absorb too much of it. It is absorbed through the skin. It also boils at 64 C (147 F) and the vapour is very explosive.

The mixture of methanol,  hydrogen and oxygen seems dodgy indeed.

Having said all that,  I have used it for years to make bio diesel and have come to no harm. In fact I quite like the extra head that appeared back in 2000 (joking).

So,  I wouldn't use it in a heat generating device.  And never,  ever,  breath in the fumes.

Take care.

Manta

[candyman55]

I agree, Methanol is dangerous but. I will only use it mixed with water probably somewhere around 30% meth and 60% water. At that concenteration the boiling poing will be much higher than 64C the bi product will be H2,CO2 and Oxygen.

I think in a diluted concentration we may be able to realize the benefits of the mixture not freezing plus lower the voltage requirements to electrolize the mixture.

this is interesting reading:
http://www.techbriefs.com/content/view/1828/34/

[hydrotinkerer]

After reading the tech brief I am curious as to how well it will work. Where are you going to get pure methanol.

[Manta]

Hydrotinkerer,

Either drag racing strips or look at the bio fuel sites.  They use it all the time.

Manta

[hydrotinkerer]

Thanks Manta hadn't even considered those places.

[hydrotinkerer]

Have any of you guys ever heard of using calcuim hydroxide as catalyst. Meyers wanted his tubes to form a coating of it. One guy said he started using it as electrolite. I don't even know what it is.

[charley]

I looked up calcium hydride on Wickipedia and found out they used it as a portable way to fill airships with hydrogen.  It combined with water creates hydrogen at a rate of 1kg of calcium hydride creates one cubic meter of hydrogen.

Kinda interesting.

Charley

[Bob]

HAHA LOve the Pic Charley ! I hope my generator never looks like that !
...
sounds interesting may be that it can be purchased and used instead of alumimum...
sounds very good to me ...
 got any more tid-bits like that ?
...
if nothing else I can make a blimp !
HAHAHHA
Bob.......
 

[hydrotinkerer]

Well I did the same and looked it up on wiki. It has a ph of 12-12.5 and it is used as a lye substitute. To give you an idea of how well it would work the ph of Naoh is 14 and Koh is 14. It is not very far off.

[charley]

We might be talking about two different things here guys.  I looked up calcium hydride.  One of the properties is it "reacts violently with water".  I thought about using calcium hydroxide a while back when I couldn't get enough amps out of the koolaid in my gen but I didn't do it.  Might be worth a try though.

Charley

[Bob]

Yah ! VILONTLY ! thats what I wann'a see.... BIG EXPLOSIONS ! put calcalum Hydride down as a must get right along with the nitroglycern and fertilizer bags ! HAHAHAHA
...
I had a GREAT idea when I was a KID that entailed a steam engine and a realy strong tank
put anything into the tank and ignite it and drive for hours...  how long you get to drive depends on how big a boom you can make at one stop/refueling...
corse this would have to be one really strong tank... probably 4" thick steel... and it would look like a propane delivery truck... ...but you could use hand-gernades, old mortars,land mines, surplus bombs.... and all that ... and it would be a way to get rid of the old munitions too.... 
   I told my dad about my great idea and he just rolled his eyes.... I don't think he took me seriously ! ....<GRIN>
...if nothing else it would be a way for government trucks to be powered sense they have an abundance of the munitions.... I suppose some Jerk would probably leak it to the press that they carry 500lb bombs with them as a fuel supply and that would end it real fast !
...
but a FUEL/AIR BOMB ! now that can be done real easy with a mist of gasoline and air !
and you'ed get a complete burn, not just a portion of it and do it all at once and save the pressure for later use.... so what if you gott'a fuel the truck in a bunker ! with remote control...just incase you use a bit too much.... minor details !
a 2 min refueling stop.... set the parking break  go to the bathroom and when your a LOOOONG way away press the remote control on the re fueling and listen for the sound of a Muffled Bell.... if you find your self on the ground with bleeding ears and nose you know you have to walk home....again....
...well, maybe it wasn't such a good idea after all !
 HAHAHAHAHAH
Bob........

[charley]

Look on the bright side Bob.  No more worrying about making bubblers.  No more wondering "Is that flashback arrester reeeeally gonna work." 

Just click BOOM and away we go!

Charley

[hydrotinkerer]

Hey Charley is that a picture of Bobs briggs trying to start.

[Bob]

Yah you know... instead of trying to Prevent the explosion ...make it happen and use the pressure generated to power the motor ! ... makes sense to me ... but some how I just don't think it'll catch on.
....
hehehhe
I remember a guy who made a Hydrogen powered car had a 10 gal tank in the back of his hatchback laying sideways and he fueled it up by  adding water and then a carefully measured amount of carbide that he added in a sealed manor to the tank... and it would go BONG and the pressure guages would jump to their new position.... ... he drove the car for about 2 years or more and one time while stoped by a sirvice station on the side it let go , killed him and injured a few other people there poked holes in the building and  all sorts of nasty things....
for ages after that Hydrogen generated cars were dangerous as heck ! it got lots of coverage by the media...even got the north state on national TV !
...
but he was just making Hydrogen with that reaction... what if he was trying to make High pressure !
...bet it wouldn't have lasted 2 or 3 years ! HAHAHAHAH
...
I read a study on high pressure containers one time that said the usefull life of such a container was something like 5 years because of the trimdious stress involved...
1200psi that the oxigen bottles have in them are good for 10 years if I remember right because thats fairly low but wen you get into the tens of thousands of PSI  things become very plyable ...
one tank in the study gained 1/2" in diamator when filled  it was at Cape Kennedy I think used to hold liquid oxygen for the space program... they routinely XRAY the tank for fractures ! so far its still togather and hasn't blown up yet !  and its been there sense day one of the space program ! HAHAHA
...
people just don't realise how Volitle high pressure is... mean just doesn't cover it !
...
My Dad worked at Arrow Jet general bit many years when I was a Kid and when the ground would shake in L.A. we'ed rush to Mom and Dads bedroom and wait for the red phone to ring ... it alwayse did...thank God...  but that was when something went "not according to Plan" out at Arrow jet!
it cracked the plaster in our walls one time and we lived 20 miles away.... that was a bad one
killed 6 and released bad toxic gas and leveled the test bunker....
at the time Dad was working with the "Exhotic Fuels" experiments... some of the stories he can tell ya are realy amazeing ! ... they had a fuel and Rocket motor that could put a man on the moon for a thermos bottle full ! ... but it was worst than hazordious...
...
anyway... steam engines ok  with a good old fashoned boiler... but a tank to contain a explosion? I think I'll pass on that one ! HAHAHHAHAHAH
...
Bob......

[Bob]

Hydrotinkier:
Unless you want a pic of me with my toung hainging out panting like a race horse, there ain't much to show for my efforts yet ! HAHAHAHAHA

[charley]

That's pretty good.  I can just see the advertizing campaign, "Bet you're Briggs won't do this on the first pull!!"

Just saw Scratch's video.  That's impressive. 

[hydrotinkerer]

I just ran across this guy using this for electrolite. I quoted his post.

you can simply mix a few teaspoons of baking soda in a glass of white vinegar. Add baking soda only a little bit at a time, as the mixture will foam up at first and if you add too much at once the vinegar will spill out of the glass. Keep adding until the baking soda does not dissolve anymore in the vinegar: you now have Sodium Acetate. Add 30% of it to distilled water and you'll have a great electrolyte and huge HHO production - much better than using baking soda alone.
You can dip a 9V battery in the electrolyte to test that it's working, the bubbles will form at the anode and cathode.

I thought it was interesting. Might keep the plates from coating over? Also might get more amps than koolaid?

[randy]

you can try it but I'm thinking you'll build an abundance of goo

[Bob]

One needs to remember that allot of these electrolytes are for Experiments ONLY...
and Not meant for constant use... this is what made Baking soda popular in the first place as everyone has some in their Kitchen ! you can just as easy use stright Kitchen salt.
and yes it realy really does up the conductivity of the water.. but the goo that will form because of the salt is not worth it at all !!!!!!

Baking soda is fine...BUT it contains SALT.... SODIUM is the worst thing you can have in a hydroxy cell, it makes a green goo that will coat the plates and stop all production eventually, and simply washing it off in the sink really isn't good enough as it leaves a water proof coating baked on to the plates .... take it from me this is not a good solution
for constant hard use...
using anything with sodium in it will eventually stop the production in the cell.
...
thats how I see it... and I don't use anything with sodium in it for that reason.
FWIW
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

The reason I bring it up is during the reaction it produces hydrogen, CO2, and ethane. I don't know if the vinegar neutralizes the sodium in the baking soda. If you are not producing oxygen that might be easier to overcome the o2 sensors and computer problem some of us have. I will put together a test cell Mon. and let it run and see if it produces the dreaded GOOO and see if it coats the plates.

[Painless]

I've almost exclusively used KOH for my cells, although I recently tried out NaOH (Roebic drain opener) and have to say that it drove me nuts!  It leaves white chalky mess everywhere if it spills, plus seems to seep out of every place it can find leaving it's chalky goo in it's path.  I had to clean down the radiator of my truck with vinegar and a brush to get rid of the mess when I had a hose barb leak.

I'm testing Sodium Acetate at the moment but am waiting for a new batch of KOH to arrive.  Come back KOH!... All is forgiven!!!

By the way, I would love to try just straight distilled water and high voltage.

Russ.

[Bob]

Painless:
  I Have used KOH a great deal on my "Randy cells" with good luck till I switched from a series hookup to a Parallel hookup .. and within a day the KOH turned To a dark Coffee brown
and coated the plates and the output dropped within a few days to nothing !
I cleaned the cell with "Muratic Acid" which worked fantastically I might add and tried it again with KOH and got the same results....
 it seams that High heat will Cook the KOH and make the coffee color ...live and learn I guess.... I sense then have switched to Lemonaid Koolaid and havn't had a bit of problem with the COFFEE COLOR !...( about 20packs to the gallon)
...
I still have my KOH but am running low and plan to go back to it when I get the tempiture down in the cell ! ( planning on a recirculating system for the electrolyte)
...
FWIW
...
Bob......

 

[Jake]

will muratic acid take the coating off plates from sodium hydroxide?
I'm runnin the junk in my cell till I get koh or koolaid cuz I didn't know any better when I put it in :-) I'm hopin when I switch over (probably to koolaid) the muratic acid will get my booster nice n shiny.

[Bob]

Yah it should do the trick for ya !
but try this... 100% muratic acid in the container with the cell for 10 minutes
adjateing it every once in a while ... then Flush it with high pressure water( garden hose)
and clean it real good .... then inspect it if it still looks dirty then do it again !
...
I did mine for 30 min at 100% but they were all BROWN plates... and sense they were Randy cells they are tough as nails too they survived with no problem and came out shinnie and new looking !... but it takes the blast of water to get the crud off the plates the Acid just loosens it !
...
HOWEVER be aware that the acid may eat some insulators so check them first !
....
Bob.......

[randy]

Jake; from what I've heard and learned koolaid works in a cell with very close spacing 1/16" or less, has anyone tried a mixture of koolaid and KOH? might be something good maybe.

[hydrotinkerer]

I would think with koolaid being an acid and Koh being a base they would neutralize each other out.

[Painless]

Painless:
  I Have used KOH a great deal on my "Randy cells" with good luck till I switched from a series hookup to a Parallel hookup .. and within a day the KOH turned To a dark Coffee brown
and coated the plates and the output dropped within a few days to nothing !
I cleaned the cell with "Muratic Acid" which worked fantastically I might add and tried it again with KOH and got the same results....
 it seams that High heat will Cook the KOH and make the coffee color ...live and learn I guess.... I sense then have switched to Lemonaid Koolaid and havn't had a bit of problem with the COFFEE COLOR !...( about 20packs to the gallon)
...
I still have my KOH but am running low and plan to go back to it when I get the tempiture down in the cell ! ( planning on a recirculating system for the electrolyte)
...
FWIW
...
Bob......

 

Bob,

I was just checking out the Randy cell design in it's thread.  It looks to me like all of the washers are connected to power, effectively using 12-13.8v per +/- pair?  This would certainly explain why the parallel setup cooks the electrolyte and why it runs lower amps in series.  Ideally, you should not run more than approximately 2v per cell, anything over that will generate heat and cause your system to also produce more steam vapor than HHO.

If I misunderstood the diagrams, please correct me!

Russ.

[Bob]

Painless:
You are correct the "Randy Cell is hooked in Parallel to the plates , so they all recieve the same voltage 12~14vdc at 20 amps the single cell gets purdy darn warm but produces 2 to 2.5LPM ...a very hefty output indeed !
in series hookup they run much cooler as you have surmized, sense they both only get 6vdc each then however the 2 in series drawing the same amperage produce the same as 1 cell does
the only advantage of having 2 is the less heat then....
 so I stepped up the amperage to gry and get a bit more production out of the cells and did get more... aprox 3 to 3.5... ( my dog chewed up my LPM test bottle so I had to guess at it)
when I went to 30amps instead of 20... so it did help...
but production again went down after a week or so and it was because of the coffee color , so I flushed and acid cleaned it , and then switched to parallel hookup thats when it turned coffee color within hours... so that was too much heat ! hehehehehehe
... I was just playing with them trying to squeeze out a bit more and wound up getting the cells realy dirty !
 If I use the Randy cells again I will use 2 in a 1 gal container in series, I had 3 but the amps need to make them produce was more than my stock truck could handle
I would need 60 amps for the 3 in series to make them operate as good as they would seperately, and my altenator is only a 65 amper!
...
so thats where I set now ... the Hydroxy gen is by my work bench and there is 2ft of snow here ... I ain't going out there to work on it in this cold ! HAHAHAHAH
....
Bob........

[ROADKING]

I was wondering if anyone has ran gasoline or diesel fuel thru their cell and what happened.

[Bob]

Not I....
although diesel sure would cut down on the rust <GRIN> 
dunno what you'ed get out of diesel if you split the molicules appart or even if you could
hehehe interesting idea Roadking !  might come up with Assetline or something weird!
...
Bob......

[Painless]

I was wondering if anyone has ran gasoline or diesel fuel thru their cell and what happened.

Gasoline is basically carbon, hydrogen and various other junk.  Electrolysis would split the hydrogen from the other elements, leaving nice yucky amounts of carbon etc in your gen.

However, a spark due to a short inside your cell would have much more interesting results!

[Manta]

As the whole point is to reduce a virtually free and limitless substance,  water,  into it's constituent parts I don't see any point in playing around with anything else.

Manta

[abe]

Anyone of yall tried Orange Juice as an Electrolite. Tried it today with a supriseing result. It did work pertty good, but instead of gas foam came out. I scoped some up and put it on the ground. lit my torch and tried to check to see if there was any HHO in it. It was a pertty big BANG for only a little scoup of foam. You couldn't put this in your car but was insteresting, the foam lasted for up to 30 min in a bucket. I was looking for a better electrolite , still looking. Got to be something safer than Robic. Bob I'll try koolaid how much did you put in water to get around 20 amps that sounds good to me.
                                                                     Chris L

[Bob]

Howdy Abe !
 very interesting experiment... it needs a de-foaming agent added to it I think !
....
On the Koolaid ... If I remember correctly for a single "Randy Cell MkI" I use about 3 packets to achieve a 20 amp draw in a 1 gal cell container...
...
with 3 cells it took close to 40 or 50 packs... a huge amount !
..
I realy do Like the Koolaid as it is the cleanest running electrolyte I have found yet and it is the most heat tollerant.... much more than KOH...
the problem with Koolaid is achieveing the higher amp draw that we want... sometimes thats just plane impossable ! it totally depends on the cell and the setup though !
...
Bob.........

[abe]

Wow that would be kanda pricey.aroung 15 to20 dollars a gallon, have you tried lemon juce

[Bob]

nah its only about .20cents a pack at walmart... I bought a entire box of unsweetened lemonaid koolaid packets for 6 or 8 bucks.... still have a bunch in the glove box ! HAHAHAHA  I think there is like 100 to a box ...not sure on that !
...
Bob.......

[murf26]

How much??  I'm using sodium hydroxide(1/4 tsp) and don't seem to be getting much HHO.  My ammeter isn't even registering.  Any ideas?

[ROADKING]

I have used sodium hydroxide, and from my experience 1 tea spoon to a gallon of distilled water equaled about 15 amp on a dry cell with 1/16 spacing.

[Bob]

SODIUM is really BAD on your cells guys don't use it ! in any of its forms !
Potasium Hydroxide (KOH) is far far better... if you don't have that then use Lemonaid Koolaid
because The Sodium in Sodium Hydroxide is supposed to make green GOO...
and the goo is very conductive and also coats the plates....
now,... if you havn't experienced a goo problem using Sodium Hydroxide its shocking to me to say the least but please say so,... so I know !
...
when I used my KOH instead of the Koolaid it took about 1 tsp in my 1 gal container to get 20 amps for a single cell.... 5tsp when I used all 3 cells (all in the same bath)
in that configuration I ran my cell in series for about 3 months and it ran clean all that time but slowly changed color to a brown-ish color like weak coffee... I switched to parallel hookup and within 2 days had expresso ! and almost no output at all !
the reason I found out after I tore it down was normal steel nuts and washers in the container.... Not all of it was Stainless steel ...like I thought it was !
and I suspect the heat had a big part in the discoliration ...but I am not positive.
...
if your using 1/4tsp of Sodium Hydroxide you are barely drawing any amps... and thats why the output is low....
but I'm telling ya you need to get POTASIUM HYDROXIDE instead... that won't bugger up a all stainless steel cell at all !
or just go with koolaid ! hehehehehe
but I'ed get away from the drain cleaner or sodium Hydroxide fast if I were you or you'll have to clean each plate all over again.... you might be able to get it clean again with Muratic acid , used in swimming pools 100% for 10~15 min.... then dispose of carefully as its MEAN stuff.... then flush with high pressure water and rince good with distilled water.
... then go with KOH or lemmonaid...
really ...I had to go through it to learn... and it does indeed work better , by far!
....
Bob........

[H²+O]

Bob have you ever read the ingredients in the lemonade - kool-aid? It goes,, Ingredients: CITRIC ACID, CALCIUM PHOSPHATE, MALTODEXTRIN, SALT, CONTAINS LESS THAN 2% OF..................

SALT! (isn't that suppost to be bad?)
Think the mixture of Calcium Phosphate has any thing to do with any thing?
why not use strait Citric acid?

I looked up Citric acid on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citric_acid and down the page (if you don't want to read it) it says,..
Water softening
Citric acid's ability to chelate metals makes it useful in soaps and laundry detergents. By chelating the metals in hard water, it lets these cleaners produce foam and work better without need for water softening. In a similar manner, citric acid is used to regenerate the ion exchange materials used in water softeners by stripping off the accumulated metal ions as citrate complexes.The saturation point for citric acid and water is 59%

OK, The saturation point for citric acid and water is 59% (not sure if that is by volume or weight..)
and the saturation point for KOH and water is 28-33% by weight
What are your figurines BOB on those numbers (referring to what you have done already)?

well when i build my 'randy' cells I'll give it a go can't wait to get the stuff i ordered in!

When I got done roofin earlyer I was laying on the couch thinking about falling asleep and WAMMY!!! it hit me! an accurate HHO LPM Measure! (I'll post it in the Bubblier section when I get it all written down and figure out which parts I'm going to need). but basically it is something like this,,,, 
3" PVC pipe with cap on one end. the cap has 2 holes with fittings, one for hho/water intake and the other for water to the cell (I've been thinking about a few things to try so this might not make since till i get all the stuff tested and posted!), inside this PVC pipe closer to the top is a little up/down push rod switch (have no idea what you call it ), on the inside of the top it has a rubber gasket all around for support of...
the top piece is 2 - 2.5" PVC and has one hole for a fitting for a hose coming out the top of the cap but it also has some sort of electric gasket to completely stop the flow of HHO. on the outside of the pipe it has two plastic pieces stuck to it to flip the switch (measured for 1LMP With flow while tube is going down). and on the bottom outside of the pipe a ring of rubber for support and to get ALL the bubbles in there!
Hook all this up to a computer with the correct program and you get a LPM gauge that keeps track of each 1 liter you get and how long it takes! so if you leave it running all night you can come back and look at the log in the morning and whammy! precise measurements of hho production!!

Steve

[Bob]

No ! Not SALT in there Too !!!! ACK !
well, never the less, running lemonaid is the cleanest thing I have found... even if it has a small amount of salt in it....
  Randy and I both have ran out cells in Lemonaid for months and they stay shinnie !... it must be the citric acid in it that does the trick... thats my guess ! 
so why not try stright citric acid ?   it may be better...even if it doesn't have that Lemon Fresh Fregrance! LOL!
....
I know it takes allot of lemmon aid to reach the saturation point.... something like 50 to 60 packs to a gallon of water.... and then you get no further increase in conductivity
...so yah that sounds about right, KOH takes less to reach saturation but it will wind up giving a higher amp rating over all... i thought it was 38% for KOH though, but I don't trust my memory enough to debate it LOL !....hehehehe so what ever it is !
...
on your Measureing device.... the resistance of the gasket on the bottom of your floating tube is going to give you problems.... but that is not the major problem.... getting rid of the gas in the tube once its full will be the trick ! otherwize it will not sink to trip the switch again.
...keep working on the idea , you will make a real good one I am sure, just keep after it till you succeed!
....
I like the Floating Pop bottle method Myself, although it does not give you a LONG term run measurement at all, but you can re measure it after its been on all night!
....
Bob........

[Manta]

Here is a quick drawing of my measuring device. As you can see,  it is made from a three litre plastic bottle with the base cut off,  and a one litre bottle that acts as the actual measuring unit. And Yes,  I do know it says two litre on the drawing.  just noticed that.

The big bottle is supported in a couple of plywood rings and the little bottle is free to rise and fall between three guides.  So all I have to do is connect the cell under test (the only cell so far) to the pipe and then time it's movements.

I'll post a photo when I remember to get some batteries for my camera.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta...
How do you fill the center test bottle with water again for another test ?
....
Bob....

[Manta]

Bob,

You don't.
At the start the input pipe is not connected to the cell. The  top bottle (the float) is pushed down onto the pipe; so now it is full off water.(If a small weight is placed on top of the float it will fall down on it's own).
So,  Connect the pipe from the cell to the input pipe. The gas pushes the float up,  displacing the water.Since the float is far lighter than the water the float rises and the water stays as it is.
When the float is full of gas (that is,  pushed right up, which is one litre) all you have to do is disconnect the cell and the float bottle will sink back down pushing out the gas. And your ready to start again.

In an ideal world a couple of taps and connections will make things safer,  but I haven't got round to that yet.

The beauty of it is you can scale it up to any size you want. A 20 Litre poly drum is in the planning stage.

Manta

[Manta]

Bob,
Looking again at the drawing I see that it shows the pipe that is inside the bottle as blue (full of water) It should be empty. The water level comes to just below the pipe. The drawing below shows the position at the start of the test.

Manta

[Bob]

Ahhh ! OK I understand Now !
A very good method !....
looks easier than My Bottle in a bucket and keeps my hands out'a the water too !
... thanks !
Bob.......