Known Running units

[Bob]

So far I know of 2 extreamily successful units running
as well as 4 other moderately successful ones.
One is a Dodge Ram 2.5ltr engine (carberated) with 6LPM of hydroxy gas being fed into the engine... he was getting 52+ mpg in his truck but hasn't filled the truck sense to see what the 3 cell unit is giving him
I am estimating from the info he gave me he is getting 69MPG now!
...
the other one is utterly fantastic results a big Chevy Duely with a 6.5ltr engine that got only 8 to 9 mpg with 3 cells he made from scratch
John now gets 74MPG... and he's working on a better cell unit now ..poised to knock your socks off ! <GRIN>
...
in short it works People , it really does !.... get building !
...
Bob......

[LTCFISHER]

I would like to add my cell to the list of cells in use. I can get 93mpg in town and only 43mpg at 75mph. I have put over 486miles on a empty fuel tank.

[Bob]

WOOT ! well done LTCFISHER !
nice looking cell too !
thats your "30 switch plate" cell isn't it ?
do you have any idea on the output it puts out ?and how many amps your drawing with it ?
Impressive figures thank you for shareing that with us !
...
Bob......

[Too Many Secrets]

FISH, do you have schematics of this cell anywhere?

TIA

[scratch1676]

I am running my cells now and testing them.  Yesterday I did a test run although these are short runs they will give you a ballpark ideal of whats working and whats not.  Yesterday filled up truck until it pours out tank, I run 63 miles up the interstate at 65 to 70 miles an hour, at the turn around spot I check both cells amperage with multi meter 90 amps each ( yes thats 180 amps ) the led's for some reason are not accurate they show 150 amps each ( I dont know why) my hydroxy gas output at that amperage was around 10 liters a minute yesterday before I left.  Motor was clattering all the way and did not have good power very weak.  The motor clattered more on a upward grade during a more labor period.  My electrolyte and my pwm's did not get hot.  Both were slightly warm ( very exceptable )  I refueled at same pump when I returned 2.43 gallons to fill it up again.  I knew when I pulled up there it was not going to be good.  25.9 miles a gallon, thats what it gets without any enhancements.  Today, I had to go to town, this time I will be doing some interstate and some in town running around, waiting at stop lights and ect.  I refueled at the station again same as yesterday (until it pours out the tank) and away we go but this time I turn the pwm's to 25 amps and leave them there just to see what will happen and I travel 26 miles return and refuel again 1.212 gallons yep thats right 21.45 miles per gallon.  I just dont know what to do.  I think back during the summer I must have just oversighted my mileage and didnt really get 40 miles to the gallon or something, I am at a lost.  Yesterday before the test run, I was in the shop and playing around with the cells and checking my lpm and I took my 6.75 hp lawnmower and tried running it on hydroxy.  The lawnmower ran but didnt seem to have any power so I left it at that.  I then took a pressure gauge and hooked it up to my system and within a minute more or less I had 40 psi on the gauge.  I then hooked it back up to the truck and pinched off the line so it would build up pressure and after about a minute I let it go and it did make my pickup rev up like you had pushed the gas pedal.  The truck didnt over rev it just reved up more for about 5 seconds and went back to idle.  My opinon is that it is going to take alot more hydroxy to make a difference with a 4 cylinder motor and if you have a 8 cylinder you are going to need a magic wand.

[Bob]

Scratch !
the clattering you hurd and poor proformance is more than likely due to the timeing change of that much Hydroxy gas being used in the engine and it is effecting the timeing... you will have to more than likely adjust the timeing to compensate for the pre-ignition !
retarding the timeing should help with that ... you will probably have to move it close to top dead center when it fires not BEFORE top dead center... because the hydroxy gas blows up so much faster than gasoline and is takeing the gasoline with it moving the timeing is a must
.... if you have no distribiture in that truck I am at a loss for a remidy to tell you!
you need to get that timeing to TDC and then start RESTRICTING the fuel supply or limiting the amount of gasoline the engine gets in Normal operation...
...
Right now I think the truck is running about 75% on Hydroxy gas and the gasoline is just being pumped through it as normal and does no good... the hydroxy gas will take presidence
when it is introduced into the engine and the gasoline will become secondary
so at the moment your only useing about 25% of the gasoline you burn the rest is being wasted...
 what you will have to do is change the timeing of the sparkplugs to say No ping or Rattle at acceleration... probly about 2deg. BTDC or 2deg. ATDC testing is the only way to tell
what you want is no rattleing/pinging at all ! ( thats hard on an engine don't run it like that!)
 then you need to cut back on the gasoline the engine gets... without doing that you will not see a milage increase because it will just pump it out on the ground anyway weather you use it or not !....
 the "Matt Valve" I made achieved that for me but in a smaller way... it sounds like you need a big way... so a large "Matt valve" might be the answer for you...
or simply control the fuel flow by your electronic goodies if you can .
....
Hydrotech on the other forum ran into the same problem early on, but discovered that he had to reduce the fuel or even though the Hydroxy gas was there he still used the same amount of gasoline ! ... he modified his carberator extensively  (main jets mostly) to where the truck would barely run enough to stager down the block and back.... because it was so extreamly LEAN... but when he turned on the Hydroxy gas it ran fine.... doing this got him 74 MPG with his big V8 dewly full size truck....( GM I think)
he also injected the hydroxy gas at each intake valve with seperate lines.... now weather that helped or hindered is up for debate <GRIN> but that is what he did!
 he had 8LPM when he did that ... YOU have 10LPM you should do even better !
he changed the timeing to TDC and cut the main-jets to almost nothing  then he had something.... till he did that it was an iffy propisition the MPG realy didn't improve although the power did improve !
....
I hope that helps !
....
Bob.......

 
 

[scratch1676]

i will look it over today and see if I can change my timing.  I am not sure on this model whether its computer controlled or what.  I may have to buy software and hook my laptop up to my truck and control it from there.  I think you can do that.  I will dig deeper into that when I get to it.  thanks for the suggestions and information.

[Bob]

I hope you don't have to buy the interface and program thing for a lap top ...last I checked it was something like $1500.00 for the interface and software for a toyota
but it did allow you to adjust everything.... or so it said ! it came with a long cable so you could set the laptop on the seat and drive down the road if I remember right....
still that is far too much money for me to spend !  <GRIN>
....
good luck to ya !
Bob......

[scratch1676]

ok, I went to the shop and reset my timing it will allow you to adjust it some but not like the old stuff.  I moved it to as close as I could get to TDC and went up the road a bit and my power was just not there to make a test run.  I went back and adjusted the timing some more and went for the test run.  This time the engine did not clatter at all and lacked some of the normal power but not enough to cry about and ran fairly smooth.  End result 25.7 basically the same as yesterday.  I went back to shop and was looking up my timing for the truck and it told me to short out two pins on the diagnostic port before you set the timing so that tells me the computer on my truck does control timing to some degree.  I think I am going to have to get to around 20 liters a minute to make a difference with this thing.  Remember I said that I had pinched off the hose from my bubbler and let the pressure jump up to 30 or 40 psi and it did make my motor react when I let it shoot thru the breather.  I am going to have to go back to the drawing board here unless someone can change my mind.

[Bob]

Hang on a minute Scratch ! Your getting 10LPM NOW and that is like 5 times more Hydroxy gas than the rest of us have ever achieved... and most of us have gotten 2 times the results in MPG than you have... right ?  ITS NOT THE HYDROXY GAS...or (Oddly enough) the VOLUME of it!
its the computer in the truck messing with ya buddy !
...
I have a 2.4liter R22 toyota and I got 40mpg with a meer 2.5~3LPM  over 50% improvement
in gas milage... (although it did not last very long, as I have the cell off now)
....
if your getting 10LPM the gas ain't the problem....
eather the engine is not recieveing the gas...( its possable its venting !)
or the engine is getting it and the computer is counter acting it... but I don't think so...
...
you mentioned that the truck didn't run very good at TDC... that tells me the engine is not getting that gas !  adjusting it to no rattleing and pinging is what I wanted you to do, that is far better than just arbitarily putting the timeing to TDC so now the truck runs but still the power is lacking.... 
....
it simply is not getting the gas...
or the power would be twice that of what it was ! "REALLY"
....
when I added the Hydroxy generator to my truck getting 1.5LPM the power increase was very noticable ! and thats without changeing the timeing too which would have helped even more.
...when I got over 2LPM the power increase was as noticable as the first time on top of what it was... the climbing of hills in 5th was possable for the first time !
so you know it is not a small increase of power but fairly substancial !
....
your not getting any of that !...
why? there is only one reason that I can think of... the engine is not getting the gas
regardless of weather the gas milage improves or not the power felt in the truck should be very evedent.... if your not getting that power increase something is amiss !
...
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how/where are you injecting the Hydroxy gas ?
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I have my hydroxy gas being injected into the bend in the rubber SNORKEL pipe connecting the intake manifold to the Mass air sensor/air cleaner.... so its in between the two things
and under constant vacuum, though not much...( its as close to the intake pipe as I can get it.)
I have been going to move it over to the top of the air cleaner box but havn't yet
...
if you noticed a very small increase in power but thats all ...that tells me the engine is not getting ALL that Hydroxy gas... it may be filling up the air cleaner box and venting out or something equally bazaar !<GRIN>  the point being that the MASS AIR FLOW sensor has to open to get the air from the air cleaner...so it is a restriction... at about 4000rpm its only about 1/2 way open so its not open very far in normal driving, only about 1/4" to 1/2"  so keep that in mind...
 I'ed think that would be more than enough to draw everything you put into the air box out into the engine ...but you never know.... 10LPM is a bunch of volume !
... I'm probably barking up the wrong tree here but something has to be stopping the engine from getting that hydroxy gas because the Symptoms point to it!
after all you have 3 times as much gas as I had on my best day and my gasmilage went way up
 and yours stayed the same...
 the only other thing it can be is your electronic Gizmoes arn't doing the trick !
and I think that more likely than not !
... not because your skill at making them( i have fathe in ya !) but because the trucks computer is probly diferent enough than any of the others that that type of adjustment just doesn't work on that modle....
.... if you can adjust the fuel the engine gets to extreamily lean and to the point of staggering and then turn on the hydroxy cell  it should clear out and purr like a kitten!
that is what you are looking for !
but if the O2 sensors get a wiff of that O2 in there they will imediately dump in more gasoline... so you have to disable the 02 sensors some how...
I simply put a piece of tent pole over the one on my truck and it has been working great with no check engine light sense I installed the pipe !
it simply cannot sniff the exhost because all the holes are blocked off !
so it can't send a error signal to the computer !
...
I think your O2 sensor things are playing with ya .... get a tent pole and do it the hard way and take those things off and see what ya get !
...
then adjust the engine to lean as it will go and still run with the MAF adjuster... then leave it there and turn on the Hydroxy gen.  if it doesn't clearup and purr great something else is giveing you truble !
...
seriously....that should cure the problem !
if it don't I will be totally supprized !
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if you cannot adjust your gasoline to the point of staggering and barely running then the MAF enhansor is at fault... 
 all you can do is islate the cause of the problem now.... and you know its not the volume of the Hydroxy gas, so leave it alone and fix something else ! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
....
Good luck  !
Hang in there you can do it , its just isolateing what ain't working now !
....
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

I took my cover off my air filter and ran my littlle MAF adjuster back and forth and it did try and shut the motor down put I could not see any movement in the Mass Air Flap.  I was watching it with my flashlight.  I am going to cap off my o2 sensor and that should put my computer into error mode which is a rich mode and then I will adjust the efie thingy to run the fuel back and see what happens.  I have my hydroxy injected into the bottom of the air cleaner box so that it diffuses it with the air going into the motor and also so it passes over the Mass Air Sensor, so that the oxygen can be detected and compensated for.

[Bob]

humm... ok
well the way I understand it the mass air sensor flap shouldn't move at all when your adjusting your efei inhansor doamahitchie...thingie! that should just tell the computer to eather inrich or lean out the fuel the injectors are putting into the engine... and I believe it does that by the time they are switched on and off.... leaner the setting the shorter the duration of time they are on ....I THINK !
...
I would have thought that the top of the air cleaner box would have been a better injection point...but as you say there is a sensor on the bottom half... and if that is the Oxygen sensor it would be wise to include it into the mix... let it know of the added oxygen so its not correcting for the Added oxygen later... but it doesn't seam to be working out that way.
... I know this will sound Stupid... and I can't even rationalize it my self , but it sounds as if the Hydroxy gas is not getting through the air filter! .... I dunno how that is possable because its thinner than Air so it should have no problem... but perhaps its laden with moisture and not making it through the air filter !... because that is what it is acting like to me.... before you change anything try takeing out the air filter or put in an old one and rip a big hole in it so there is no paper in the way... ...
blow out the sand and dirt in the bottom of the air box and then try it with a filter with a hole in it.... ( another words no real filter in it!) but you need the filters rubber gasket to have something to clip the 2 pieces togather with !.
... if you try it that way and the power is realy increased,  you found the problem
...some how I suspect you will !
....
the way I would adjust that thing if I were you is with the engine warm and the hydroxy generator off adjust the efei dohicky to make the truck run lean and stagger hardly take throttle and in general run like shit... then turn on the hydroxy unit. there should be a major change imediately ( well, within 30 seconds!) if that doesn't happen you have no hydroxy getting to the engine....
... also be awair that you could go too rich or too lean with that adjustor... and you probly wouldn't be able to tell without looking at the exhost smoke and even then it may be very hard to tell as the truck is designed NOT to smoke ! so telling if its too rick might be very hard...and its imperitive that the engine be LEAN when the hydroxy unit is turned on so you can tell if it smothes out and runs better.... the missing every 3rd or 4th revolution thing.... is a sign of being too lean but you want it leaner than that  almost like staggering its so lean... if you can't get it that far then you need to take that efei thing off and toss it in the trash and make up a "Matt Valve!" with the matt valve I can open the valve till it gets realy rough, and turn on the hydroxy generator and it smothes out......
this tells me everything is working as planned !
if your not able to do that ...then thats the major problem ! what is causeing it is something else could be the gas isn't getting to the engine but I doubt it but it is a possability ! don't over look that just because it sounds like an impossability !
unless you know for a FACT that the gas is getting into the cylinders and being burned you still have to consider it !.
...
I thought putting a pipe over the O2 sensors would send my trucks computer into the error mode too but it didn't... but that doesn't mean it won't on your newer truck... I suspect it will do just as you say, put it in the extra rich mode and at least be stable there... then you can try and adjust it leaner and more than likely it will start showing you some improvement in MPG...
 although you'll probly drop 5mpg when it goes into the rich mode you'll probly gain 30-40mpg by the Hydroxy gen so you should come out ahead ! if you do that and thats the outcome then you know that the computer is responcable for negateing the effects of the Hydroxy generator before ....
( with 10LPM you should get a good 75 to 80MPG at the very least,... thats my guess!)
if your not getting that milage your not cutting back on the gasoline enough !
...
just be carefull that you don't go too lean watch the temp guage if it climbs higher than normal then it may well be too lean ... you don't want to melt a hole in a piston and that can happen if you run it too lean too long... but I don't think there is much worry of that
not with the engine running smothely ,,, if its staggering and bucking ...yes thats very hard on an engine ...
...
Keep after it ! You'll figure it out !
....
hope that helps !
Bob......

[randy]

On Matt's truck the gas is introduced just ahead of the throttle body, the tube is angle cut for a venturi effect, the "Matt valve" is adjusted for smooth idle with cell running, currently the cell is inactive due to freezing temps, all he did was close off the valve and drain the cell. his truck has two o2 sensors and both are shielded with tubing, he hasn't gotten any error code and gets 22 mpg without cell, at last check with cell operating he was getting 46 mpg. he's working on a huge raft of washer cells and has a shitload of drilled washers ready, he's waiting for my results on my latest build, I should have time to get er done next week.

[scratch1676]

i was watching a video on a hydrogen convention in Florida last night and Bob Boyce was giving a presentation on a cell that he and some company were working on ( basically a modified Tero cell ) and the question was asked about freezing problems in inclimate weather and he replied that at the 33 percent by weight ratio of KOH that it will not have a problem with freezing.  Has anyone tried this?

[Bob]

Not I.....
that is the point of saturation of waterand KOH if I remember correctly which means the amp draw would have to be controled by a PWM.... but that method does cut down on a bunch of heat
because useing a High concentration of KOH to water lowers the waters resistance and the water resistance is a major cause for heat generation in the cell... (if not the only one)
so running a High concentration of KOH is great if you have a PWM that can put out enough amps to run your cell at the desired amperage !
... I think seriously90% of all the heat problems we have incountered will be eleminated useing this method... the problem is a BIG PWM to handle it ... something like a 200amp PMW would be a God send to me !
... but finding one that can handle a mear 30 amps is even hard ! when in reality we need ones that can handle 500 to 100amps, even if we don't use all that !
<GRIN>
...
so I have no doubt that a high concentration wouldn't completely freeze... maybe slush but thats all....
...
Bob..........