Known Running units

[Bob]

Well, YAH !... but on a larger scale... it'll be easier when you have allot of HP to deal with and you can use as much amperage as you want....
you have Much much more lee-way when you go larger than if you go small...
the small size is limiting the HP and therefore the amount of amps you can use to make the Hydroxy gas...
 where if you start wit a Large engine that could turn 30 altenators if needed you are not limited by the AMPS you could USE to make the Hydroxy gas....
...
on the one hand you are trying to do something extreamily hard to begin with, and complicateing it to the point of being rediculas by limiting the amount of amps you can get from it.
and on the other its just a matter of how much LPM you actually need to run the engine ! ...
...
so you see there is a big diference between the two.   Yes I believe it can be done.
but the smaller you make the unit the harder it will be to pull thr rabbit out of the hat and accomplish the task.... where if you can make almost an unlimited amount of hydroxy gas you can power any engine you feel like....
...
I understand that I'm trying to lift myself up by grabbing my boot straps <GRIN>
and that if its almost impossable to do at 2hp what makes me think its going to be any easier with 200hp ?.... but the fact is it takes amps to split the water apart,  and alot of them
I can see where a large engine can make  large amounts of hydroxy gas... but cannot see where that will happen with a small engine.... thats the devideing line!
so to make that simi preptual motion engine that makes its own fuel to run to make its own fuel....etc,etc, it will have to be fairly large  or a SUPER,Super efficient small one...
....
 I don't see it as asking the impossable Manta because I can reason out each part that needs done, but I can't see that happening in a SMALL unit... is all.
...
Bob.....

[scratch1676]

well guys, I am not looking to make a  perpetual motion device.  I am looking for more efficiency from the introduction of hydroxy gas as a supplemental fuel.  I want the motor to run longer on a mix of hydroxy gas and gasoline when compared to running the motor on gasoline only.  Next I will work on the perpetual motion of the device and then on to Telsa's Wardentower death ray so if your from Siberia look out.

[Bob]

Well, its a good thing to discuss... can it be done or not ? run an engine off of Hydroxy gas that is being made by the same engine ?
 according to mainstream science the answer is no it cannot be done, because of the "laws of conservation of motion"  in order to make the Hydroxy gas alone it will take more power than is available from the engine just to make the gas ... and then burning the gas in the engine will
wind up in the hole in the end....this is due to the "it takes more energy to make the energy"
equasions and they are NOT in error... they have been proven time and time again... but something Must be in error somewhere  because it CAN be done... so what gives ?
anytime you change an element into something else it devowers energy...it takes energy to do it.... so if you take energy to convert water to hydroxy gas you have to consume energy to do that work.... the question is can you get enough out of the conversion to make it a self sustaining proccess.... and the Laws of the conservation of motion say NO you can't!
...
 However... we can visulize an engine running on 100% hydroxy gas easily enough, thats not a problem.... and to run my R22 truck engine I have calculated that it will take somewhere between 15 to 25LPM to run it on 100% hydroxy gas.... so now the question becomes can that engine produce enough power to make 15 to 25 LPM of hydroxy gas... and that we already know the answer to.... Yes it can... with Power to spare !
... so the problem now is one of the "Laws of the Conservation of motion" are not agreeing with what we know to be possable... for verious reasons....
and those reasons may well be the problem... Over estimateing our ability to make large amounts of Hydroxy gas with the available amperage. this could indeed be the problem
because if it actually takes 3,000 amps to supply enough power to make 15 to 25LPM of hydroxy gas then the R22 engine may well not be able to turn the altenators needed to supply the power....   But we know thats not the case. as we have seen 54LPM from Bob Boyces 101plate cell and that took somewhere around 200 to 300 amps....
so the LPM generation isn't the problem as we know that can be done
so perhaps its the engine running on 100% that is the problem, perhaps it will take double or tripple my estimates to run the R22 engine if that be the case then perhaps its not possable ?.... but even then at double the estimated amount of Hydroxy gas needed to run the engine
the Hydroxy gas can still be produced by the engines available power !
... we have such an abundance of power available that we can supply almost any amount of hydroxy gas needed to run the engine.... so thats not the problem...
so what is the problem then ?
we know that we can make enough Hydroxy gas to run the engine on 100% hydroxy gas
with the power available....and actually have an abundance of HP left to run the engine to do other things like drive the car...
so to me the "Laws of Conservation of motion" simply don't pan out in this case.
...
 Please feel free to prove me wrong !

the Idea works because it doesn't take that much power to rip water apart and make Hydroxy gas in the first place. and its probably the ONLY element that we can do that to and get away with it.....  It just so happens that we can rip the water apart and use it as fuel to run the engine, to turn the altenator to make the electric power needed to pull the water apart to make the fuel....   if we couldn't come out ahead in the proccess the engine would slow down and stop, but instead the engine could and would speed up.  its the only case in nature that I know of where we can convert and actually come out ahead in the proccess!
.... its the only perverable ever-full bucket..... you can keep takeing stuff out but it stays full all the time.... seemingly impossable but totally reasonable but not by todays sicense, because todays science says it can't be done.... they will have to make allowences to this in the future,...eventually I expect all cars to be powered by water, and out polution problems will be solved in the proccess... but it won't begin until our scientest find a way to reconcile the problems... because right now the laws say it can't be done and their are no exceptions to the rule......  but I know better !
...FWIW...

Bob.......

[Manta]

Bob,
Much as I would like to see you proved right here.  I Think that the problem is we simply don't have the proof that you are claiming is out there.  What we do have is people that can demonstrate they can make lots of hydroxy.  Ok.
We also have proof that engines can run on hydroxy alone. Ok.

But we don't have anyone being able to prove that they can run,  say, a 100 hp engine and make it develop the full 100 hp continually on hydroxy alone.
And we certainly don't have anyone that can show that that engine is producing it's own gas while it does this. No matter how many Amps it makes.

We have had,  until recently,  a couple of people that have made claims of very high mpg from big engines.  But they don't seem to be saying much at the moment. I really would like those people to either say,'this is how you do it'.  Or to say ' Ok, I messed up my calculations,  sorry'.

Either way is fine and honorable .

I reckon that hydroxy will have a use as a supplement.  Maybe more in Diesel engines that are running on veg oil (SVO). But never at 100 % with normal driveability.

Ok guys, prove me wrong.

Manta

[Bob]

HEHEHE ! Hard to prove you wrong when your right on the button Manta !
as You say....Unfortionately that is what we have to go by... I have just put the pieces togather and  clame that it can be done... and I've yet to prove it as well !
and unfortionately its lible to be some time till I can PROVE it.... so till then we will have to go by "Guess and by golly" and Hope that it can be done.
...
I agree that in Most cases Hydroxy gas will be religated to a supilment and not used as 100%
Fear I think will scare most off from trying to run 100% hydroxy gas what with the so called Hydrogen Hardening clames out there and all I don't think many people will risk a $3000.00 motor just to gain a bit of money by not having to fill the gas-tank a few times before the engine blows up.... thats definately not the case, but that is how they will look at it and  with that kind of reasoning you can't blame them one bit!...  we have to go by what we know after all! and to make matters worse thats just a $3000.00 motor and thats a cheep one others go upwards to $8500.00 to rebuild...or more !  so its not something you want to take a chance on,  most guys don't have the ability to do a complete rebuild anymore... so that adds to the expense even more, if you take and blow a Big dodge engine up and put it in a shop and have it fixed you can pay as much as $15,000 just to have it repaired... in many cases more than the truck is worth!.... so 100% hydroxy gas for those guys is more or less out of the question... no matter how much they want it....at least until its proven by someone to not harm the engine !
....
So Yes ...we can make large amounts of Hydroxy gas... but people that have accomplished 8 to 10LPM are rare.... and in all honnesty thats not enough even at that ! so we are not there YET..... but we're getting there fast!... by this fall I expect to see 25LPM by someone here
in our group and 25LPM in a big truck should be Fantastic Gas millage so who ever accomplishes it should be all smiles! <GRIN>
...
I think at the moment we are More hampered by "NOT KNOWING"  than anything else.
I do not KNOW for a fact it will take 15 to 25LPM to run my truck...I am taking an educated guess at it... and thats still Guessing anyway you want to look at it!
 it could be More and it could be less, but I think it should be in that area somewhere...
...if I get my truck running on 100% hydroxy gas and it provides the Hydroxy gas while I drive I could care less if it only developes 100hp instead of 200hp... because its FREE transportation at that point, so its slow ...who cares ! HEHEHEHEHE if it is Too gutt-less I will opt for the suplimental system as well, because I have truble driveing a gutt-less car !
....
so My game plan will be one of a very large output cell and try to find the nessarry power to power the cell, which may take 2 large altenators but I am hopeing that one will do the job
....I have 2 ways to hook it up , one is to use a ball valve connected to the throttle linkage, and the other is to use the fuel injection system that already exhists on the engine... although I have doubts that the latter will work it is non-the-less a possability to try. both methods will require a Pressure regulated Hydroxy source to draw from
which is a danger to have so the volume will have to be small, and well isolated from flashbacks.
...
but Much experimentation will have to be done to determan the correct amount of Hydroxy gas to use and how much air I can allow into the system and still get it to work good
this part is a total unknown... and can make or brake the entire system because if I find that NO outside air can be allowed in the intake that means a great deal more of hydroxy gas will be needed indeed.  While on the other hand if I find I can delute it 50/50 only half of the Hydroxy gas will be needed that I first thought !
I expect to find only about 1/8 to 1/4 the volume can be outside air and the rest will need to be Hydroxy gas.... again that doesn't mean I have to fill each cylinder completely full each time the intake valve opens... that is only needed at full throttle and I do NOT plan on making anywhere near that volume of Hydroxy gas !
...
I think it will work, infact I'm so sure of it...that I am going to try and make it happen
I expect some problems, I'ed be a fool not too <GRIN> but I am hoping that any problems will not be insurmountable!... Time will tell I suppose! HEHEHEHE
...
Bob........


 
 

[Painless]

I wish you luck with your plans, Bob!

Hopefully, when you achieve that huge amount of gas, you won't end up being the first man on the moon via a hydroxy explosion!

Russ.

[Bob]

well, I won't lie...i am a bit aprehinsive about playing around with a large volume of hydroxy gas after seeing what a small amount of the stuff can do ! <GRIN>
thats why I mentioned the Very well isolated Hydroxy storage tank... but we all know about the best plans of mice and men ! its best to assume that if shit can happen, it WILL ! and plan accordingly ! hehehehehe
...
I think for my first experiment on the 3.5 briggs and stratton in the spring I will try a diferent type of hydroxy approach... by instead of forceing the hydroxy gas into the intake
I'll hook the intake directly to the cell and allow air to be drawn in to the bottom of the hydroxy cell via a ball valve, this will allow me to adjust the amount of air the engine sees while recieveing all the Hydroxy gas from the cell...plus a bit more
...but thats if I continue trying to use any of the old cells , which I probly won't as they don't produce very much at all...
 I'll make my new large cell and if I can get the meterial for "in a dip" container great I'll do it that way, if not I'll make a dry cell... and with its output try the little briggs & Stratton  before I move on to the truck... I need to see with my own eyes how much Hydroxy gas it is going to take to run an engine.... this may well change my plans for the truck
as I think most people are thinking my estimates are quite low ...and they may well be.
 A few years back I attained a pressure tank/vacume pot for a large truck and I am sure it will make a dandy storage container for the hydroxy gas if I fit it with a Pop off cap...
....
I would like to make a slide in rack for the truck so I can take the Hydroxy unit out and work on it as I think there will be allot of tinkering being done on it ...perhaps a "accross the bed tool box" would be the answer  and I can just back under a hoist and lift it out.
I am hesitant about useing quick disconnect lines but I think its a must for that sort of thing... but the last thing you want is a seaping hydroxy line in the back if your truck on a bumpy road! ... if I can get around to working on it and not on the Ranch....which is doubtful this year,... I should be able to make some progress fairly fast so it won't be top priority, because I have too many things that need to be done, and there is only one of me !
HAHAHAHAHAHA
...
even if I don't accomplish the 100% truck this summer I do hope to achieve at least 75MPG on the truck... at the very least... that in itself will be something !
and as I will be needing the truck all the time on the ranch... its probly better to go in steps and not take the truck out of the game for any length of time ! <GRIN>
....

I'ed sure like to get the Tractor working on Hydroxy gas too, but I think thats askin a bunch
...it takes a beating and I think I'ed be asking for break downs all the time!
...
ahhhh what ever! it'll all come out in the wash ! HAHAHHA
Bob........

[Manta]

Bob,

re,...Fear I think will scare most off from trying to run 100% hydroxy gas what with the so called Hydrogen Hardening clames out there...

This is a very real fear.  It's proper name is hydrogen enbritlement,  and it could be the end of your engine.  A few month ago at work I had to make up a jig for testing some 12 MM steel setscrews.  These screws had been subject to a hydrogen rich atmosphere.  The test was simple. All the screws were to be tightened down into a drilled and tapped plate to 80% of the shear strength.  None of them got past 60% before the heads sheared off.  Imagine that happening to your valves.
If anyone has been running an engine for some time,  and has the money to spare,  then it would be nice if they could strip down the motor and get the valves examined.
Maybe LtCFisher,  who has the record at the moment,  could help out here.

Manta

[Bob]

The way I understand the Hydrogen Embrittlement problem is that when used in a Pure Hydrogen invirement the Hydrogen seaps into the metal making the metal much more brittle
 However when useing Hydroxy gas ( which is not pure hydrogen) as an additive there are no Ill effects at all...
...
when and if we achieve 100% hydroxy gas to run a car, it is possable that it could be a problem
at some time in the distant future....
Hydrogen embrittlement doesn't happen over night, and the question is does any embrittlement take place at all if the hydrogen is being burned as a fuel source ?
... yes Hydrogen embrittlement is a fact, but what conditions have to be met before the embrittlement takes place and for how long ?
...
  for instance , a storage tank of hydrogen ( steel) is good for aprox 15 to 20 years before
the metal is degraded to a point that the metal is suspect.
and that is holding Pure hydrogen under high pressure.
....
 so if my car lasts ONLY 15 years due to Hydrogen embrittlement so be it. Chances are that burning the Hydroxy gas will remove all the Hydrogen effects or so close to all of them that it could last 100 years!  pluss the fact that its not Pure and not under those extream High pressures.... the effects on your engine can be and probably are neglable.
... My opinion only...I don't know that for a fact!
so underatanding exactly what Hydrogen embrittlement is important to US who use Hydroxy gas on a daily basis.... but the question is...does it even play a part ? or is it just Hype ?
....
my 2 coppers!
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

well I am still waiting on the spare time so I can work on my little motor setup I have put together.  Maybe in a month or so I will get some free time.  I dont have all the cold weather you guys have but I have 22 rent houses that I have to keep up and some times it gets away from me.  Oh, yea dont forget I have a full time job at the boiler house too.  I still want to experiment with this stuff even though the results so far are not that encouraging.  I am waiting on Bob's big cell.  I know you have it in you Bob, just let it out.  :-)

[Bob]

Ahhh... Money is my only obstacle....but it is a major problem most of the time ! HAHAHHA
...I remember hearing Ritta Davenport say" if money will solve it ...its NOT a problem!" but
for some reason it never works out that way for me ! HAHAHAHHA
after all... all you need do then is just get the money...and there are thousands of ways to get the money ...right?   
... hehehehe
...
I have so many "Irons in the fire" at the moment I don't know which end is UP !
I've been at the ranch 6 out of 7 days in a row and still didn't accomplish very much !
...
oh well such is the way it goes ! first ur money then ur clothes ! HAHAHA!
...
Bob........

 

[H²+O]

Ok I think BOB is right when he thinks that we can run an engine on 100% hydroxy gas. because we aren't 'making' hydrogen we are simply removing it from storage..

think of a water fall power-plant (can't think of the name right off the top of my head). that is taking water and turning it into something totally different, electricity. But when we 'make' hydrogen from water we are getting something that is already there.

 (not sure if this has been said in another form somewheres)

Steve

[Manta]

Steve,

But the hydro plant is only using the weight of the water.

To get the hydroxy you have to add power to the water in the form of electricity to crack the h2o. So the whole thing boils down to ' do you use more power to extract enough gas to run the process',  or do you have a net gain. As I mention occasionally,  I don't see 100% hydroxy as viable. But I'd like to see someone prove me wrong.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:   I understand your reluctance, simply because Nature doesn't give anything away...usually!
but the real ishue here is not is it Efficient to run a car on 100% Hydroxy gas...the question is CAN IT BE DONE,... OR NOT....  (obviously I believe it can be)....
  I really could care less if running a car on 100% hydroxy gas is EFFECIENT... or not.. simply because Hydroxy gas is really cheep to make..... not like gasoline !

when Stan Mayer powered his VW Dunebuggy with 6 of his tube cells, he wasn't concerned about breaking the laws of science by doing it... its just a diferent method of fueling the engine...
.... the electricity used to make the Hydroxy gas is way less than the total electricity the engine COULD make under perfect conditions.... so running into Intropy problems isn't an ishue here...... yes it takes some HP to generate the electricity, and we are not working with an unlimited amount of HP, so there is some concern there.
....I guess time will tell..... you may be right.... its hard to say
 but I'll put my money on the 100% Hydroxy gas powered car....<GRIN>
...
Bob...

[H²+O]

Ok this  Hydrogen-Powered Turbo Prius Test Driving a Hydrogen-Powered Turbo Prius
(If you watch the vid) It can go 75miles of 1.6Kg compressed hydrogen gas. well i opened up the calculator on this computer and did a little figuring.....
..........
.......
....
..
.

BAM!!!!
BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And i came up with an answer, it takes 237LPM (Don't freak! that is Liters Per Mile) Ok but you can freak now cause I sent them an email (haven't gotten a responce yet) asking how they drove it on there test.. Because If they drove it like regular then more gas would have been used up PER MINUTE, But if it took them 10minutes to go 1 mile = 6MPH then they would only have used up (hope I'm right on the figure lol) 23.7 LPM!! (Liters Per Minute)

I have this book i got from the library (for some reason this typing thing right now isn't letting me look ant what I'm typing below the scroll, which is the last line  two lines up..)ANYWAY,, It is the 11Th edition and there are several people in the book that  have converted completely to Hydrogen,  Which is stored in hidride (spell check!) tanks, I'll get the name of the book later.
what do you guys think?? BOB especially you!