Known Running units

[Bob]

So far I know of 2 extreamily successful units running
as well as 4 other moderately successful ones.
One is a Dodge Ram 2.5ltr engine (carberated) with 6LPM of hydroxy gas being fed into the engine... he was getting 52+ mpg in his truck but hasn't filled the truck sense to see what the 3 cell unit is giving him
I am estimating from the info he gave me he is getting 69MPG now!
...
the other one is utterly fantastic results a big Chevy Duely with a 6.5ltr engine that got only 8 to 9 mpg with 3 cells he made from scratch
John now gets 74MPG... and he's working on a better cell unit now ..poised to knock your socks off ! <GRIN>
...
in short it works People , it really does !.... get building !
...
Bob......

[LTCFISHER]

I would like to add my cell to the list of cells in use. I can get 93mpg in town and only 43mpg at 75mph. I have put over 486miles on a empty fuel tank.

[Bob]

WOOT ! well done LTCFISHER !
nice looking cell too !
thats your "30 switch plate" cell isn't it ?
do you have any idea on the output it puts out ?and how many amps your drawing with it ?
Impressive figures thank you for shareing that with us !
...
Bob......

[Too Many Secrets]

FISH, do you have schematics of this cell anywhere?

TIA

[scratch1676]

I am running my cells now and testing them.  Yesterday I did a test run although these are short runs they will give you a ballpark ideal of whats working and whats not.  Yesterday filled up truck until it pours out tank, I run 63 miles up the interstate at 65 to 70 miles an hour, at the turn around spot I check both cells amperage with multi meter 90 amps each ( yes thats 180 amps ) the led's for some reason are not accurate they show 150 amps each ( I dont know why) my hydroxy gas output at that amperage was around 10 liters a minute yesterday before I left.  Motor was clattering all the way and did not have good power very weak.  The motor clattered more on a upward grade during a more labor period.  My electrolyte and my pwm's did not get hot.  Both were slightly warm ( very exceptable )  I refueled at same pump when I returned 2.43 gallons to fill it up again.  I knew when I pulled up there it was not going to be good.  25.9 miles a gallon, thats what it gets without any enhancements.  Today, I had to go to town, this time I will be doing some interstate and some in town running around, waiting at stop lights and ect.  I refueled at the station again same as yesterday (until it pours out the tank) and away we go but this time I turn the pwm's to 25 amps and leave them there just to see what will happen and I travel 26 miles return and refuel again 1.212 gallons yep thats right 21.45 miles per gallon.  I just dont know what to do.  I think back during the summer I must have just oversighted my mileage and didnt really get 40 miles to the gallon or something, I am at a lost.  Yesterday before the test run, I was in the shop and playing around with the cells and checking my lpm and I took my 6.75 hp lawnmower and tried running it on hydroxy.  The lawnmower ran but didnt seem to have any power so I left it at that.  I then took a pressure gauge and hooked it up to my system and within a minute more or less I had 40 psi on the gauge.  I then hooked it back up to the truck and pinched off the line so it would build up pressure and after about a minute I let it go and it did make my pickup rev up like you had pushed the gas pedal.  The truck didnt over rev it just reved up more for about 5 seconds and went back to idle.  My opinon is that it is going to take alot more hydroxy to make a difference with a 4 cylinder motor and if you have a 8 cylinder you are going to need a magic wand.

[Bob]

Scratch !
the clattering you hurd and poor proformance is more than likely due to the timeing change of that much Hydroxy gas being used in the engine and it is effecting the timeing... you will have to more than likely adjust the timeing to compensate for the pre-ignition !
retarding the timeing should help with that ... you will probably have to move it close to top dead center when it fires not BEFORE top dead center... because the hydroxy gas blows up so much faster than gasoline and is takeing the gasoline with it moving the timeing is a must
.... if you have no distribiture in that truck I am at a loss for a remidy to tell you!
you need to get that timeing to TDC and then start RESTRICTING the fuel supply or limiting the amount of gasoline the engine gets in Normal operation...
...
Right now I think the truck is running about 75% on Hydroxy gas and the gasoline is just being pumped through it as normal and does no good... the hydroxy gas will take presidence
when it is introduced into the engine and the gasoline will become secondary
so at the moment your only useing about 25% of the gasoline you burn the rest is being wasted...
 what you will have to do is change the timeing of the sparkplugs to say No ping or Rattle at acceleration... probly about 2deg. BTDC or 2deg. ATDC testing is the only way to tell
what you want is no rattleing/pinging at all ! ( thats hard on an engine don't run it like that!)
 then you need to cut back on the gasoline the engine gets... without doing that you will not see a milage increase because it will just pump it out on the ground anyway weather you use it or not !....
 the "Matt Valve" I made achieved that for me but in a smaller way... it sounds like you need a big way... so a large "Matt valve" might be the answer for you...
or simply control the fuel flow by your electronic goodies if you can .
....
Hydrotech on the other forum ran into the same problem early on, but discovered that he had to reduce the fuel or even though the Hydroxy gas was there he still used the same amount of gasoline ! ... he modified his carberator extensively  (main jets mostly) to where the truck would barely run enough to stager down the block and back.... because it was so extreamly LEAN... but when he turned on the Hydroxy gas it ran fine.... doing this got him 74 MPG with his big V8 dewly full size truck....( GM I think)
he also injected the hydroxy gas at each intake valve with seperate lines.... now weather that helped or hindered is up for debate <GRIN> but that is what he did!
 he had 8LPM when he did that ... YOU have 10LPM you should do even better !
he changed the timeing to TDC and cut the main-jets to almost nothing  then he had something.... till he did that it was an iffy propisition the MPG realy didn't improve although the power did improve !
....
I hope that helps !
....
Bob.......

 
 

[scratch1676]

i will look it over today and see if I can change my timing.  I am not sure on this model whether its computer controlled or what.  I may have to buy software and hook my laptop up to my truck and control it from there.  I think you can do that.  I will dig deeper into that when I get to it.  thanks for the suggestions and information.

[Bob]

I hope you don't have to buy the interface and program thing for a lap top ...last I checked it was something like $1500.00 for the interface and software for a toyota
but it did allow you to adjust everything.... or so it said ! it came with a long cable so you could set the laptop on the seat and drive down the road if I remember right....
still that is far too much money for me to spend !  <GRIN>
....
good luck to ya !
Bob......

[scratch1676]

ok, I went to the shop and reset my timing it will allow you to adjust it some but not like the old stuff.  I moved it to as close as I could get to TDC and went up the road a bit and my power was just not there to make a test run.  I went back and adjusted the timing some more and went for the test run.  This time the engine did not clatter at all and lacked some of the normal power but not enough to cry about and ran fairly smooth.  End result 25.7 basically the same as yesterday.  I went back to shop and was looking up my timing for the truck and it told me to short out two pins on the diagnostic port before you set the timing so that tells me the computer on my truck does control timing to some degree.  I think I am going to have to get to around 20 liters a minute to make a difference with this thing.  Remember I said that I had pinched off the hose from my bubbler and let the pressure jump up to 30 or 40 psi and it did make my motor react when I let it shoot thru the breather.  I am going to have to go back to the drawing board here unless someone can change my mind.

[Bob]

Hang on a minute Scratch ! Your getting 10LPM NOW and that is like 5 times more Hydroxy gas than the rest of us have ever achieved... and most of us have gotten 2 times the results in MPG than you have... right ?  ITS NOT THE HYDROXY GAS...or (Oddly enough) the VOLUME of it!
its the computer in the truck messing with ya buddy !
...
I have a 2.4liter R22 toyota and I got 40mpg with a meer 2.5~3LPM  over 50% improvement
in gas milage... (although it did not last very long, as I have the cell off now)
....
if your getting 10LPM the gas ain't the problem....
eather the engine is not recieveing the gas...( its possable its venting !)
or the engine is getting it and the computer is counter acting it... but I don't think so...
...
you mentioned that the truck didn't run very good at TDC... that tells me the engine is not getting that gas !  adjusting it to no rattleing and pinging is what I wanted you to do, that is far better than just arbitarily putting the timeing to TDC so now the truck runs but still the power is lacking.... 
....
it simply is not getting the gas...
or the power would be twice that of what it was ! "REALLY"
....
when I added the Hydroxy generator to my truck getting 1.5LPM the power increase was very noticable ! and thats without changeing the timeing too which would have helped even more.
...when I got over 2LPM the power increase was as noticable as the first time on top of what it was... the climbing of hills in 5th was possable for the first time !
so you know it is not a small increase of power but fairly substancial !
....
your not getting any of that !...
why? there is only one reason that I can think of... the engine is not getting the gas
regardless of weather the gas milage improves or not the power felt in the truck should be very evedent.... if your not getting that power increase something is amiss !
...
...
how/where are you injecting the Hydroxy gas ?
...
I have my hydroxy gas being injected into the bend in the rubber SNORKEL pipe connecting the intake manifold to the Mass air sensor/air cleaner.... so its in between the two things
and under constant vacuum, though not much...( its as close to the intake pipe as I can get it.)
I have been going to move it over to the top of the air cleaner box but havn't yet
...
if you noticed a very small increase in power but thats all ...that tells me the engine is not getting ALL that Hydroxy gas... it may be filling up the air cleaner box and venting out or something equally bazaar !<GRIN>  the point being that the MASS AIR FLOW sensor has to open to get the air from the air cleaner...so it is a restriction... at about 4000rpm its only about 1/2 way open so its not open very far in normal driving, only about 1/4" to 1/2"  so keep that in mind...
 I'ed think that would be more than enough to draw everything you put into the air box out into the engine ...but you never know.... 10LPM is a bunch of volume !
... I'm probably barking up the wrong tree here but something has to be stopping the engine from getting that hydroxy gas because the Symptoms point to it!
after all you have 3 times as much gas as I had on my best day and my gasmilage went way up
 and yours stayed the same...
 the only other thing it can be is your electronic Gizmoes arn't doing the trick !
and I think that more likely than not !
... not because your skill at making them( i have fathe in ya !) but because the trucks computer is probly diferent enough than any of the others that that type of adjustment just doesn't work on that modle....
.... if you can adjust the fuel the engine gets to extreamily lean and to the point of staggering and then turn on the hydroxy cell  it should clear out and purr like a kitten!
that is what you are looking for !
but if the O2 sensors get a wiff of that O2 in there they will imediately dump in more gasoline... so you have to disable the 02 sensors some how...
I simply put a piece of tent pole over the one on my truck and it has been working great with no check engine light sense I installed the pipe !
it simply cannot sniff the exhost because all the holes are blocked off !
so it can't send a error signal to the computer !
...
I think your O2 sensor things are playing with ya .... get a tent pole and do it the hard way and take those things off and see what ya get !
...
then adjust the engine to lean as it will go and still run with the MAF adjuster... then leave it there and turn on the Hydroxy gen.  if it doesn't clearup and purr great something else is giveing you truble !
...
seriously....that should cure the problem !
if it don't I will be totally supprized !
....
if you cannot adjust your gasoline to the point of staggering and barely running then the MAF enhansor is at fault... 
 all you can do is islate the cause of the problem now.... and you know its not the volume of the Hydroxy gas, so leave it alone and fix something else ! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
....
Good luck  !
Hang in there you can do it , its just isolateing what ain't working now !
....
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

I took my cover off my air filter and ran my littlle MAF adjuster back and forth and it did try and shut the motor down put I could not see any movement in the Mass Air Flap.  I was watching it with my flashlight.  I am going to cap off my o2 sensor and that should put my computer into error mode which is a rich mode and then I will adjust the efie thingy to run the fuel back and see what happens.  I have my hydroxy injected into the bottom of the air cleaner box so that it diffuses it with the air going into the motor and also so it passes over the Mass Air Sensor, so that the oxygen can be detected and compensated for.

[Bob]

humm... ok
well the way I understand it the mass air sensor flap shouldn't move at all when your adjusting your efei inhansor doamahitchie...thingie! that should just tell the computer to eather inrich or lean out the fuel the injectors are putting into the engine... and I believe it does that by the time they are switched on and off.... leaner the setting the shorter the duration of time they are on ....I THINK !
...
I would have thought that the top of the air cleaner box would have been a better injection point...but as you say there is a sensor on the bottom half... and if that is the Oxygen sensor it would be wise to include it into the mix... let it know of the added oxygen so its not correcting for the Added oxygen later... but it doesn't seam to be working out that way.
... I know this will sound Stupid... and I can't even rationalize it my self , but it sounds as if the Hydroxy gas is not getting through the air filter! .... I dunno how that is possable because its thinner than Air so it should have no problem... but perhaps its laden with moisture and not making it through the air filter !... because that is what it is acting like to me.... before you change anything try takeing out the air filter or put in an old one and rip a big hole in it so there is no paper in the way... ...
blow out the sand and dirt in the bottom of the air box and then try it with a filter with a hole in it.... ( another words no real filter in it!) but you need the filters rubber gasket to have something to clip the 2 pieces togather with !.
... if you try it that way and the power is realy increased,  you found the problem
...some how I suspect you will !
....
the way I would adjust that thing if I were you is with the engine warm and the hydroxy generator off adjust the efei dohicky to make the truck run lean and stagger hardly take throttle and in general run like shit... then turn on the hydroxy unit. there should be a major change imediately ( well, within 30 seconds!) if that doesn't happen you have no hydroxy getting to the engine....
... also be awair that you could go too rich or too lean with that adjustor... and you probly wouldn't be able to tell without looking at the exhost smoke and even then it may be very hard to tell as the truck is designed NOT to smoke ! so telling if its too rick might be very hard...and its imperitive that the engine be LEAN when the hydroxy unit is turned on so you can tell if it smothes out and runs better.... the missing every 3rd or 4th revolution thing.... is a sign of being too lean but you want it leaner than that  almost like staggering its so lean... if you can't get it that far then you need to take that efei thing off and toss it in the trash and make up a "Matt Valve!" with the matt valve I can open the valve till it gets realy rough, and turn on the hydroxy generator and it smothes out......
this tells me everything is working as planned !
if your not able to do that ...then thats the major problem ! what is causeing it is something else could be the gas isn't getting to the engine but I doubt it but it is a possability ! don't over look that just because it sounds like an impossability !
unless you know for a FACT that the gas is getting into the cylinders and being burned you still have to consider it !.
...
I thought putting a pipe over the O2 sensors would send my trucks computer into the error mode too but it didn't... but that doesn't mean it won't on your newer truck... I suspect it will do just as you say, put it in the extra rich mode and at least be stable there... then you can try and adjust it leaner and more than likely it will start showing you some improvement in MPG...
 although you'll probly drop 5mpg when it goes into the rich mode you'll probly gain 30-40mpg by the Hydroxy gen so you should come out ahead ! if you do that and thats the outcome then you know that the computer is responcable for negateing the effects of the Hydroxy generator before ....
( with 10LPM you should get a good 75 to 80MPG at the very least,... thats my guess!)
if your not getting that milage your not cutting back on the gasoline enough !
...
just be carefull that you don't go too lean watch the temp guage if it climbs higher than normal then it may well be too lean ... you don't want to melt a hole in a piston and that can happen if you run it too lean too long... but I don't think there is much worry of that
not with the engine running smothely ,,, if its staggering and bucking ...yes thats very hard on an engine ...
...
Keep after it ! You'll figure it out !
....
hope that helps !
Bob......

[randy]

On Matt's truck the gas is introduced just ahead of the throttle body, the tube is angle cut for a venturi effect, the "Matt valve" is adjusted for smooth idle with cell running, currently the cell is inactive due to freezing temps, all he did was close off the valve and drain the cell. his truck has two o2 sensors and both are shielded with tubing, he hasn't gotten any error code and gets 22 mpg without cell, at last check with cell operating he was getting 46 mpg. he's working on a huge raft of washer cells and has a shitload of drilled washers ready, he's waiting for my results on my latest build, I should have time to get er done next week.

[scratch1676]

i was watching a video on a hydrogen convention in Florida last night and Bob Boyce was giving a presentation on a cell that he and some company were working on ( basically a modified Tero cell ) and the question was asked about freezing problems in inclimate weather and he replied that at the 33 percent by weight ratio of KOH that it will not have a problem with freezing.  Has anyone tried this?

[Bob]

Not I.....
that is the point of saturation of waterand KOH if I remember correctly which means the amp draw would have to be controled by a PWM.... but that method does cut down on a bunch of heat
because useing a High concentration of KOH to water lowers the waters resistance and the water resistance is a major cause for heat generation in the cell... (if not the only one)
so running a High concentration of KOH is great if you have a PWM that can put out enough amps to run your cell at the desired amperage !
... I think seriously90% of all the heat problems we have incountered will be eleminated useing this method... the problem is a BIG PWM to handle it ... something like a 200amp PMW would be a God send to me !
... but finding one that can handle a mear 30 amps is even hard ! when in reality we need ones that can handle 500 to 100amps, even if we don't use all that !
<GRIN>
...
so I have no doubt that a high concentration wouldn't completely freeze... maybe slush but thats all....
...
Bob..........

[randy]

what if you were to mix the solution at 33% and hook cells in series until the amps are brought down to an acceptable level?

[Bob]

that should work if you had enough cells to hook up !... but the more cells you hook togather the more amps you will need so in short order the optimum number of cells and right amperage will meet... probly in about 3 or 4 cells ! HEHEHEHEHE
....
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

Bob, I guess I am just going to have to build you a PWM since you to blind to see.  What kind do you want?  Just consider it a late Christmas present.  I aint making it until I go back to work tho and thats jan 6.

[Bob]

200amp Continious use... and I'll send ya money fer the parts !
HAHAHAHAHA and maybe if your a nice, guy a bit extra for your efforts <GRIN>
but I need your mailing address. PM me with it if ya would !
and THANK YOU ! best offer I've had all month !
hehehehe

Bob.

[Manta]

Randy,

I suspect that using relays to switch in and out extra cells is the better way to control the current. You could even use a weaker mixture in the 'control' cells to bring the current back into line.
I've been experimenting with a small MOSFET ( 75337p) but it seems to get very hot even at low currents even though  it's bolted to a copper heatsink.

I'm hoping that LtCFisher will eventually get around to telling us which mosfet he used in his four channel PWM.

Manta

[scratch1676]

200! I dont know about that.  Let me just build one and send it to you.  You can be the test pilot on the thing.  he  he   

when I get thru with it, I will let you know and you can pay for the postage  How about that?

[Bob]

HAHA Ok Scratch ! No hurry, No biggie take your time... and use extra big Mossfets cuz I'll work the fire out of it.... think OVER KILL... and make it IDIOT PROOF !  HAHAHAHAHAHA
(in other words a diode in line so I can't hook it up backwards ! alwayse wondered why more manifacturers didn't do that ... for the price of a simple diode it saves burning the thing up !)
...

Manta: I think Scratch posted a place a while back where he gets allot of his components on line and they had a raft of Mosfetts about any size you'ed want ...
dunno where he posted it though ! <GRIN> sorry !
...
Bob........

[Painless]

Scratch,

Where are you with the MPG on your truck now?  Since you mention getting 40 odd MPG before I think it could purely be a case of your computers adaptive memory learning it's way around the HHO.  The more HHO you add, the quicker the computer will do this.

One way to prove / disprove this is to reset your computer.  Disconnect both battery cables and touch them together for a few seconds, then leave them off of the battery for about 30 minutes.  After you've reconnected, do an MPG test ASAP.

By the way, the rattling and pinging sound you heard is quite likely to be pre-detonation.  With that high amount of HHO going into your engine it's quite likely that left-over chamber heat and compression are igniting the HHO too early.

Hope you get it sorted!

Russ.

[Bob]

I read somewhere that touching the battery cables togather is a no no... but Personally I don't see how it could be as you have to be able to re boot the computer some how!
.... just check your book first Scratch to be sure, cooking the computer would realy hurt the pocket book ! ...
....
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

Same as when I didnt have nothing 26 miles a gallon.  I have to just get this computer management stuff figured.  I have good production and I have a small motor so I will try the reset of the computer like you guys suggested and the O2 sensor capped off and see what happens and the matt valve too.  That 40 was a one time deal I guess.

[LTCFISHER]

Scratch:

Try a orfice at your gas injection point, as you already know the cell can produce 40 psi., if sealed I have found that if you maintain a avg., psi., of (25-30) the system is more efficient and the gas can be directed and the gas pattern controlled (swirled, jet, or funnel spray) depending on the point of injection and surrounding structure. You can start on the bench with air once you know the psi. on the cell, take a piece of tubing seal one end and drill a 1/16-inch hole in it connect the air supply and and watch the regulator (set at 45psi) the air use gauge or constant gauge should read between 25-30psi constant. Re-drill the orfice 1/64-inch larger at a time untill you get the constant psi injection you need. If it drops below your target number (psi) start over.  If you inject it ( the gas) just before the mas air flow sensor it will be a cold gas keeping the MAS wire cooler (like air escaping from the valve stem of a tire even when it's a Hot tire) the mas detects air temp crossing over it (it's a resistor wire, some have a coil), this will give you a base to start at. You now have control of the MAS when using the cell, next you can look at the O2 sensor with a digital meter tap into the wires (DO NOT CUT THEM) running the cell watch the meter easier with 2 people your target number here will be (.5-.7) or (5-7) depending on your meter setting. (DIGITAL METER ONLY) Anolog will not work. For a V-8 engine it seems to require 2 injection points 1 at the MAS and 1 intake manifoldboth equipt with check valves one is for idle and low rpm the other for driving ms. daisy to the store or highway use. I hope I helped you some.
ltcfisher

[Bob]

Scratch :
I hate to admit it but I think my 40MPG was a one time thing as well, best I've gotten sense that one reading was 38MPG but that was after running the "Matt-Valve" for about a week
and the cell was purdy dirty at that time...and it sent into a steady decline from then on
.... to be honnest I don't know if its the trucks computer or the cell output that is giveing me the truble.... the cell almost quit working completely , so I know it wasn't working up to snuff ! ... but it may well have been partly due to the trucks computer as well
....I just have no way of knowing...
....
when I put the cell back on in spring I will keep closer track of the workings !
I am fairly certain that I can lean the truck out much more with the Matt-Valve with no Ill effects... and I think that will get me above 40MPG again... but I don't know that for certain!
....
LTCFisher:
  thank you for the info ! I never thought of checking to see if my O2 sensor was still sending a signal to the computer.... dunno why  but I never thought of it! HAHAHAH
that may well be part of my problem too !
thanks for the help !
...
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

thanks for all the information and suggestions Lt. Fisher.  I will give those ideals some thinking and will try that.  I know I have hit 35 psi or higher and leaks should not be a problem all I have to do is tighten more on the tero cells if that would become a problem.  thanks again.  Ok Bob,  I just got thru putting (cant remember his name at the moment) well his stuff to make his pwm handle more amps.  Its time for yours, so what do we want here a all in one or seperate it out like mine.  How much room do you have to install your box around the dash area or what did you have in mine.  I havent forgot about the amperage 200 he he.

[Bob]

Howdy Scratch ! sounds like you've been busy !
...make it easy on yourself... a all in one unit is probly the easiest... I can come up with the large heat sink if that is a problem to you.
I will probly use it under the hood, near the cell thats mounted on the frame rail, beside the engine.... and run the Pot and meter & switch to the dash... so having those 3 on wires not on the board would help a bunch....
 I don't need freq. control as I am not planning on trying to resonate the cell but if its there (space between pulse I think it is) its all for the better !
 I will build my cell to handle a max of 150 to 175 amps at top amp draw  ( I think, not sure yet) although that seams low to me it should if nothing else get me to 75MPG
if I need more amps in the future I can make another, because if I have one in my hand I can duplicate it !
 this will help me to no end Scratch ! and I really appreciate it ! Please keep track of the cost of parts, and how much time you have in it to make it... I want that info !<GRIN>
...
if you feel like makeing a simple 555 timer PWM that would be great as its probly far simplier and cheeper... all I need is a way to control 200amps without it smokeing more the marrier, so if you find 280amp Mossfets at nearly the same price go for them instead...
but if their $100.00 each ferget it ! HAHAHAHAHA
you'll probly need a driver to drive the Mossfets, or 2 stages if you use a 555 timer
... whatever you do ...PLEASE use a I.C. Socket for the chip so I can replace it should I screw it up! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA
....
BTW, my Sis bought me a TracFone and we have been messageing back and forth... problem is
I am definately on the fringe area here and havn't been able to get into town with it for 2 days ....( there is no external ant. connection on this phone darn it!)
...
 thanks again My friend !
...
Bob

[Manta]

Something seems a bit odd here.

People seem to be talking about cells that produce somewhere between 5 and 10 LPM.  yet at the same time we have claims of constant pressure of 30-40 psi with a 1/16" plus hole.  Now,  Hydrogen is a lot less dense than air. So it escapes through a hole easier than air does ,same sized hole. 30 - 40 psi is quite a lot of pressure.  Some thing isn't right.

By the way,  LcTFisher,  opening a jet by increments if 1/64" is a huge increase in gas flow. A couple of thou' at a time is more reasonable.

Manta

[scratch1676]

Let me clear on this, I have not ran my cell on 35 to 40 psi.  I have produced 4 and 5 liters per minute out of one tero cell and have produced a little over 10 lpm out of two on my truck with the engines two alternators.  I have pinched the hydroxy line going to the engine closed and let the pressure in my system reach over 35 psi and then unpinched it and let the hydroxy jet up into the mas air sensor.  This did make my motor race up like you pushed the gas pedal.  My circulating pump has a pressure switch on it thats shuts off the pump at anything over 35 psi and turns back on at anthing below 30 or so.  I came to believe that I was just not putting out enough hydroxy by doing that and seeing that it took alot more to get a reaction from my motor.  I am now back in the shop and working on a 6.5 hp motor that I have applied to a alternator that has been rewired to run off one wire ( like the old ones ) and placed a small 12 battery with it to excite the alternator into putting out some amperage.  I mounted all this on a bracket plate and will install a lcd for volts and amps and pwm then I am going to build another cell ( a little different ) and then see how efficient I can get the 6.5 hp motor to run.  I will then pursue my truck with more ambition.  I got to thinking about Lt Fishers small injection orifice and that might be a good ideal on this little setup I am working on.  I will post some pics of what I have already built of it so you can see my progress.

[scratch1676]

Bob, I will make it out of a lm324 chip, I believe thats right.  The mosfets are 110 amps ( i think ) and I ordered some a couple of months ago and dont remember what I paid but anyway i had around 25 of them and then like two weeks ago the company just sent me another 25 out of the blue.  I now have quite a collection of mosfets.  So, If I give some away big deal.  I am just try to think how many of those little jewels can that pwm I have open and close.  I know it will do 3 no problem but I am hoping for 5 in your case.  I want you to have a beast.  I also got a whole case of cooling fans that are 120 cfm ( thats big) for around 4 bucks a piece and before I paid 20 bucks for one 85 cfm at radio shack.  Anyways I wont get beat up on this pwm for you so dont worry about the parts anymore cause I aint doing it for the money, I am doing for the carma  :-)  I have some pretty good heatsinks I built a while back too just sitting around.  Hell, you seen my shop just full of crap.  I am like you that frequency stuff has impressed me at all but the pwm works very well for controlling the amperage on the cell.

[Bob]

Well Heck ! can't beat a deal like that'n !
in that case if it don't click 5 try 4, if not 4 then go for 3 and I'll be happy ! <GRIN>
....( heck I'ed be super happy with a 30amper with a deal like that ! HAHAHHA)
...But I do plan on doing something fer your efforts ... if ya want it or not  HAHAHAH!
....
what ever you do tiz fine with me Scratch !
...looks like I'll be tied up till the end of Summer now so no real hurry...it don't stop freezeing here till mid MAY so I won't be putting the hydroxy cell back on the truck till then
so you got plunty of time !....
... and YES I am moving off the mountain to the Ranch !
 
....
Just courious... but how do you get more than 110amp draw capabilities with a 110amp Mossfett ?  the way I see it thats All you can get out of it...which is a bunch ! and would do a good job no doubt... but your acting like you can Add them up or maybe put them in parallel
and I dunno how ya can do dat ! .
I figured if you wanted a 200amp PWM you would need a 200amp Mossfett and just turn it on and off fast.... I must be missing something <GRIN> surely not the first time!
..... I vagely remember when I made my 35 amp 12vdc regulated powersupply for my Ham radio many many years ago I used 4 big transisters to get up to that amperage... but for the life of me I can't remember the theory behind it tonight ! "Crowbaring" I think was the term used
but the mind is blank...
...
what ever !
...
anyway the LM324 chip ( if its the one I think it is) is a almost indistructable chip as well
I have fried a few but it takes dedicated effort  to do so !  I had one so hot it sizzeled when I touched it with a wet finger and it didn't burn up ! HAHHAHAHA  it made a tuneable autio RF amplifier that I piped my Morse code through and to my head phones... still have it down at the Ranch somewhere...  its probly the reason my hearing is bad now as I had no limmiters put in it ...and static crashes HURT ! but it would bring up a signal out of the mud so I could talk to them... was great sport ! hard on the ears though....<GRIN>
it had 4 stages in it ( 4 amplifiers) and worked super good !
I gave up on the ear phones after a while because they gave me a headach and just put it to a speaker....that worked much better !...
anyway it sounds like the same chip that I used for that... they can be used for many, many things ! makes a dandy Ossilator too !
...
anyway Do your thing, I'm sure Carma is in there somewhere for ya <GRIN>
if you plan on making them as a business, I'm one heck of an advertiser ! HAHAHAHHA
...
Bob....

 

[Manta]

scratch,

In LcTFishers last post there is this ....

'Try a orfice at your gas injection point, as you already know the cell can produce 40 psi., if sealed I have found that if you maintain a avg., psi., of (25-30) the system is more efficient and the gas can be directed and the gas pattern controlled (swirled, jet, or funnel spray) depending on the point of injection and surrounding structure....

What's puzzling me is that he appears to be saying that a 'sealed' cell will produce 40 psi.  Ok,  I can see this. After all,  if the cell is sealed then there is nowhere for the gas to go and pressure will result.

But then in the rest of the paragraph it appears that the cell is holding 25 - 30 psi whilst venting through an orifice. 

It seems a high pressure to be maintaining for the amount of gas produced in lpm.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
  Ok...... so whats the problem ?..... it takes LPM output to maintain a small pressure....
it takes a large amount of LPM to maintain a higher pressure.... thats all
....
the smaller the orface  in the line the lower in LPM is needed to MAINTAIN the pressure
you can maintain 100psi at 2LPM if the orface hole is small enough....
or any pressure within reason...
so what Fisher is saying is quite reasonable.
....
 
I found that trying to adjust my Hydroxy torch.... a tiny needle valve would allow the orface size to be adjusted....but will give you a crummy sprey pattern.... but it is worth it for the adjustability
of the flow.... the problem then becomes the pressure After the tiny needle valve !... because it isn't high enough to keep the flame outside the pipe and it then wants to burn at the valve instead
...
Bob......

[Manta]

Bob,

.....it takes LPM output to maintain a small pressure....
it takes a large amount of LPM to maintain a higher pressure.....

You've answered your own question.  It does indeed take a large lpm to maintain a higher pressure.  But 5 lpm or there about doesn't seem sufficient to maintain 25 psi if you have a 1/16" outlet continually venting gas.  It's only .083 (83 millilitre) per second.

Manta

[Bob]

there ya go getting all technical again on me. ! ok so take a hammer and beat on the orface till the hole shrinks enough to maintain pressure.... problem solved ! HHEHEHEHEHHE
.... yes a 1/16" hole will vent enough air in air line to make it hard to keep up for the compressor!
and as you said ..."thats AIR" not smaller Hydroxy gas...!
the hole in the tip of my Hydroxy torch that sports about a 3/4" long flame @ 14psi, is about the size of a wire on a wire brush.... Very very small in diam !
...So...Point taken Manta ! Well done !
...<grin>
Bob........

[scratch1676]

yeah, that would be a very large hole.  Thats why I am messing with the 6.5 motor and fiqure it out first plus its warmer in the shop working on something smaller.

[Manta]

Bob, Scratch,

I intend to check this out using the gas flow gauge from my mig welder and the air regulator from the paint spray set up when the weather picks up a bit. Went into the shed today for the first time in weeks. Light rust everywhere.  Need to sort that out. Also spent an hour out in the wind changing a couple of glow plugs on the Citroen.  We have a cold snap heading our way from Sunday and I don't want to have to do it with snow up to my ankles.

Back to the hole.  It's an easy one to prove if you have a cell that will produce 5 lpm.  Just get the cell going and check the time it takes the bottle to rise,  as usual.  Then,  remove the pipe to the cell.  put a 1/16" hole in the bottle,  put the bottle back in the tank and reconnect the pipe to the cell.  See how long take the bottle to fill up.

I'll be watching this space with interest.


manta

[Bob]

Well, if your Orface is allowing 5LPM out, the bottle will NOT fill up,with just 5LPM input. if the orface allows 3LPM out the bottle will fill at the slower rate of 2LPM, or much slower than the original setup with 5LPM ( obviously)
so if you see no filling of the bottle you then know its 5LPM or more at the orface, thats  all it will tell you.
 so with your paint air regulator and the flow meter you can check the flow of air easily
but sense air is much thicker than Hydroxy gas setting the air reg to say 5PSI will be the same PRESSURE
in hydroxy gas, but a MUCH greater VOLUME... 
(it would be interesting to see the differences the flow meter reads !)
the problem is the Flow meter is guaged for Argon more than likely, or C02... which will throw off the reading for Hydroxy gas a long way I think.
...
on my torch the input was BARELY enough to slowly gain pressure on the pressure guage at 2LPM (if I remember correctly, that... or it slowly lost pressure) ...which is in itself a very small output.
...
I've come to realize that the volumes that we deal with 1LPM to 5LPM is such a small amount  of volume
it is truly amazing that it effects the running of an engine at all !
we need triple to quadruple the output to compete with gasoline for the volume !
...
Remember back when Hydrotech got his big V8 running on 8LPM ? with gasoline and he said he got 74MPG?
even 8LPM for a V8 is a very small amount 15LPM to 20LPM is more like what it needs !
... However on a smaller engine you don't need that much but still more than we are getting currently!
....
I am still convinced that I can run my R22 engine in my truck at 15LPM to 20LPM...
I think how I will go about it is run a pressure canister of Hydroxy gas (isolated by bubblers of course)and just regulate a constant pressure on that tank... and feed the intake of Hydroxy gas through a valve attached to the throttle linkage.
... I have no idea if it will work or not, nore what problems I will incounter with such a setup, as over heating and such, and weather at 55mph or 60mph if the cell will be able to keep up or not
...its going to be a "experiment" to see how far it will work.
so what I need is 20LPM to 30LPM, MAX... Un-amp it a bit to get 15LPM and go from there.
...
Scratch: before you get carried away on the 6.5HP motor see if you can change the timeing to TDC. if you can't I think you will find like I did that that engine eill not run on Hydroxy gas ! PERIOD!
because every time the piston comes up it will back-fire...
I had to replace my newer 5hp with a 3.5 hp older engine that had points in it, the other had a magneto and no points at all. I got the points set now to as close as possable to TDC but its still BTDC..and that is still giveing me truble because of that.... And whats more I don't think I can adjust it any further, so if it works , or not , thats all I can do for the timeing without major changes to the ignition system.
a Car engine usually has a distribiture that allows full adjustment, these little engines do Not !
that makes it very hard to accomplish the task...
without the timeing change your fighting a loosing battle !
FWIW...
Bob........

[Manta]

Bob,

Got to agree with you that the volume of hydroxy passing through the guage will be much greater to give the same level reading that it would with air. Maybe I could use Argon from the welder instead.  Don't know the density for Argon though.  Have to find out;  more googling.

But the bottle with a hole test should be revealing.  I suspect that it will re-enforce my belief that you won't get anywhere near the pressures quoted earlier with a 1/16" hole.  Who's going to be the one to test it ? My little test cell won't come anywhere near 5 lpm.

Manta

[Bob]

Well, its the IDEA Manta.... not the letter of the word, 1/16" or 1/64" the idea is the same , if your cell can't keep up with the hole in the orface you need a smaller hole !
...
My cells are All lucky to get to 2LPM on a good day , so I can't test it....
but if you know or can find out the differences in the Hydroxy gas as compaired to air that would indeed be quite interesting....
a Pound of air and a pound of hydroxy gas... what volumes make that up ? <GRIN>
(especially sense Hydroxy gas is lighter than air !... that could be hard to measure!)
...
as far as Volumes go however, its the same as Air... because we measure it the same
if my cell produced 2LPM of hydroxy gas that is the same as 2LPM of air because the VOLUME is the same...
 it just takes MORE of the hydroxy gas to make up a liter than air does
volume is a measurement just as weight and the measurement of FLOW is simply a measurement as well but it depends on how you measure it...... if the vacume created by the flow of gas through a venturi
lifts a plastic cap to indicate the volume on a scale in a sight tube. 
 then a thicker medium will make more vacume than a thin medium.... changeing the site tube readings
... but a Bucket and plastic soda bottle is a great method because of the FIXED volume of the bottle
 a 2liter Root beer bottle is what I used and I marked at 1/2 way as being 1 liter in volume ....
i got the bright idea of takeing a 1 liter bottle and putting 2 of them in the 2 liter bottle and discovered that the volume of the 2liter bottle is a bit more than 2liters, but not that much so I figured it was close enough for goverment work ! <GRIN>
...so what ever the bottle is filled with , being water, gasoline, hydroxy gas or argon its still 2 liters of each...so its a great way to measure output, where a FLOW meter has to be calabrated to the gas being measured... some have diferent scales on the site tubes one for Co2 one for Argon,and one for something else... and all the measurements are in diferent places one liter per min may be on the top scale on one of the types of gas  but be half way down on the other one...
...
but you already know that  <Grin>
...
Bob..........

[Manta]

Here it is guys,  don't ever say I don't give you anything interesting.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/gas-density-d_158.html

Dive in and take a look;  then get out your calculators.

Manta

[Bob]

Interesting INDEED ! that chart says allot... but WHAT I wonder ! HAHAHAHAHHA
by looking at the numbers I discovered that the Oxygen Atom is huge compared to the hydrogen atom... I guess thats why they can use a screen or membrane to separate the two in some cases
not only is the hydrogen atoms so extreamily small... but like 10 times smaller than oxygen (or is that 110 times smaller?)   that explains why a balloon doesn't hold the Hydroxy gas for long...
like helium it seeps through the pours of the plastic.
...
I think that chart tells me that in order to get the volume we have been getting its working very well indeed!
...
I had to think about it for a bit... when we break appart water we seperate the Atoms , busting appart the molicule of water....this is done by the magnetic fields on the plates... having a tug-o-war on the water molicules ....it rips the atoms free of the Molicular bonds and alows them to surface as tiny bubbles... hinse the cloud we see in the water as the action is takeing place.
...
with that in mind why could you not get the same output from just 2 plates one pos one neg in water with a huge amount of electrical power ?... by my way of looking at it you could
...
but a plate is a rather lousie magnet... even up real close.... so why not use 2 electromagnets
to do the work that the plates are doing ?  you could in theory have a magnet the size of a quarter
in diamator 1/16" apart putting 20 amps into it and you should have Much Much more output because of the stronger magnetic field.... it could be like an open garden hose of Hydroxy gas if the power was sufficient I'ed think, just from that one point.
...
Keep in mind that the only place the magnetic field on the plates is strong enough to rip water appart is close to the plates, with wide plate spacing there does not seam to be any bubbles forming in the void between the plates only right next to and on the surface of the plate.
if the magnetic field was strong enough the entire distance between the 2 plates would be produceing bubbles... and there are a bunch of Molicules in a very short distance between them no matter how close you have the plates !
so how strong would these magnets have to be ?... well how strong is the magnetic pull on the plate at 20 amps ? probably very strong when in contact with the plate ! ... but I am sure we can make an electromagnet that is stronger and probably use less amps in the process !
...
its a thought and one I'ed like to presue in the future... ..
you know, simple like... take a 2" pvc pipe drill 2 3/4" holes for some Iron rod to stick into the pipe... seal the pipe and seperate the end of the iron rods 1/16".... wrap your coils around each iron rod to make the electromagnet, noteing the directions of the turns so you have pos on one side and neg on the other.... run the wires to a hefty reostat or amp controler and turn it on and see what ya get !
... shouldn't be hard to make and should produce very well ...at least I THINK it should !
....
anyone game to try it ?
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

A bit more to help break the winter boredom.

.....It is known that a gram-atom is equal to atomic mass of substance; a grammolecule is equal to molecular mass of substance. For example, the grammolecule of hydrogen in the water molecule is equal to two grams; the gram-atom of the oxygen atom is 16 grams. The grammolecule of water is equal to 18 grams. Hydrogen mass in a water molecule is 2 x 100 / 18 = 11.11%; oxygen mass is 16 x 100 / 18 = 88.89 %; this ratio of hydrogen and oxygen is in one liter of water. It means that 111.11 grams of hydrogen and 888.89 grams of oxygen are in 1000 grams of water.

One liter of hydrogen weighs 0.09 g; one liter of oxygen weighs 1.47 g. It means that it is possible to produce 111.11 / 0.09 = 1234.44 liters of hydrogen and 888.89 / 1.47 = 604.69 liters of oxygen from one liter of water. It appears from this that one gram of water contains 1.23 liters of hydrogen. Energy consumption for production of 1000 liters of hydrogen is 4 kWh and for one liter 4 Wh. As it is possible to produce 1.234 liters of hydrogen from one gram of water, 1.234 x 4 = 4.94 Wh is spent for hydrogen production from one gram of water now.

P M Kararev
....


Manta

[hg2]

  Any idea when we'll be getting to the point?I'm getting dizzy. hahahahaha

[Bob]

KOOL ! Now that means something to me.... I think !<GRIN>
you can get 1.234Liters of Hydrogen from 1 gram of water ( man that stuff really expands don't it!?!?!)
...but I am fuzzy on what the 4.0 WH is... 
4.0 WH sounds like it is 4.0 watts per hour,for 4 hours.... am I right there ?
but what does that equate to in amps, as watt hours mean nothing to me,  I have no refrence to what kind of power that is... Amps I do....
...it looks like that formula will tell us exactly how much power is required to turn 1 gram of water into Hydrogen..., but it does it in a form I'm not used to , so what is it in 13.5vdc and 20amps ?
...
...
...lets see... 4 watts is not much... not much times 4 is a bit... but not a whole lot !
so it takes a bit of power ( not a whole lot) to turn 1 gram into 1.234liters of hydrogen !
...I'ed think it could be more percise than my method though ! <GRIN>
....
Bob.........
hehehehehehe

[Manta]

Bob,

Looks like that to me.  in...'Energy consumption for production of 1000 liters of hydrogen is 4 kWh and for one liter 4 Wh'...  All that he seems to have done is divide the 4Kwh by 1000.  So it seems to say that you get 1 litre of hydrogen in 1 hour from 4 Watts of input power to the cell. So I guess that works out (for 12 Volt) at 0.333 Amps. At least thats how I read it.

Manta

[Bob]

.33 amps sounds about right, because it has to be very small amprage to ONLY get 1 liter in an hour.... no mater what the plate config is ! HAHAHHAHHAHA
...
we are dealing with Hundreds of times that amount and it makes me think that his figures are quite low, but  it realy doesn't matter that much <GRIN>
...
FWIW
Bob...

[scratch1676]

wow, I am going to have to visit this site much more frequent.  I am either getting dumber or you guys are getting smarter.  I caught both my calculator's on fire trying to crunch all those numbers from the post I had to catch up on.  Ha Ha    Bob, I havent tried to run the 6.5 on straight hydroxy I just did a test so far with one cell hooked up to the motor/alternator and it was producing about 4.5 liters of gas and what I did was to run the motor producing the gas and just let the gas be expelled out into the air.  I then turn off the gas to the motor and time how long before the engine quits.  I perform the test again, this time I introduce the hydroxy to the carb and turn off the gas and again time how long it takes for the engine to quit.  I am sorry to say but the engine with and without hydroxy gas ran exactly the same amount of time before it quit.  I ran the test three times.  Anyone got any ideals.

[randy]

try hooking the output hose into a central vacuum port, I think you'll notice a difference. an ICE 4 stroke only draws air fuel on every 4th stroke, between intake strokes the air flow stops momentairly allowing dilution of the gas, if your pumping it into the intake manifold your in essence filling the intake with undiluted gas constantly.

[scratch1676]

makes sense I will try that.  thank Randy

[Bob]

At a guess 4.5LPM will not idle the 6.5liter engine... its simply not enough Hydroxy gas
from what I've been able to gather it will take at LEAST 2LPM for every 1 liter of engine displacement... that means you need 13LPM just to IDLE the 6.5 liter engine....
and at that stage if you got the engine to run it would fall on its face if you opened the throttle.... so you'ed need a great deal More Hydroxy gas to Accelerate the engine in RPM
....
thats a big haingin' engine!  do yourself a favor and hook that 4.5LPM cell to a "SMALL ENGINE"
...
heheheheh
Bob........

[Manta]

Randy,

re,....if your pumping it into the intake manifold your in essence filling the intake with undiluted gas constantly...

That will only apply to a single cylinder engine.  A multi will always have at least one cylinder pulling from the inlet manifold.

Manta

[randy]

True But there is a milisecond that valves are closed stopping flow, probably the reason that causes a vacuum gauge needle to vibrate, also there is no doubt that a vacuum in a running cell boosts production, I think the vacuum causes the bubbles to get large and evacuate the cell much faster.

[janmarsh]

Also known as pulse.   Some carbs are dependent on it to activate built in fuel pumps.

[Bob]

I hooked my cell up to a vacume port on my truck once and sense I had over filled the cell with water I could see it bubbleing into the intake...( ooops)  I turned it on first watched it and then started the engine... (definately the wrong way to do it!) but when it was under vacume the gas flow almost doubled ... I don't know if it was from a leak in the cap or weather the vacume actually helped production... I suspect the latter to be true.
but I quickly changed (the same day) to injecting the hydroxy gas into the ducting not at the vacume port... there is still a slight vacume there but not near as much as in the vacumm port
and I've had it located there every sense...
it may well be true that drawing some Air through the hydroxy cell to evacuate the hydroxy gas might even be better, it would agitate the water and help release bubbles alot better, no doubt about that...
 but this is easier to do on a carberated version than it is a Fuel injected monster...
...
if I had a carberated version I would try an aquirem air-stone and line to the top of the cell to allow air to be sucked into the cell and allow the gas to be taken that way.. slightly diluted... but undoubtedly more volume than you'd normally get!
...
Bob...

[scratch1676]

Let me explain on the 6.5 in my earlier post.  That is a 6.5 hp tiller motor from Harbor Freight that I bought on sale for 120 bucks.  I took a alternator I had its a remy delco 105 or 130 amp and put a kit in it so that it will work off the one post in the back.  I bought a lawn mower battery to excite the alternator and rigged all this up on a metal stand I welded up.  I took one of my big cells from the truck and hooked it up to the setup and ran the hydroxy gas back into the tiller motor.

[Bob]

Ahhh Sooo ! I got ya now !
so have you tried to run the tiller motor on the cell yet ?
... seams odd to me that you were only getting 4.5LPM out of that huge cell though !
in all probability 4.5LPM won't be enough for that motor to run... maybe you can get it to idle without a load on it...? but I dunno... a 6.5hp is fairly large over 200cc in displacement probably closer to 250~300cc (My 5hp B&S is 200cc ) and I tried to idle it on 2LPM with no luck
as it kept back firing  and popping the top off the generator!!!! so I switched to a 3hp motor that had points so I could adjust the timing a bit...it helped some... but still wouldn't continue to run on that little of Hydroxy gas...
...
another thing to consider is that the altenator may well take more hp to turn at full load than you have there... so starting it with the altenator hooked up may well prove impossable
I think you'll need closer to 10hp to turn that altenator expecially if its over 100 amps!
... so hook your charger to the cell and see if you can get the tiller motor to run first...
if you can then try to turn the altenator without a load on it... then if its still going add the load and that will Kill it! <GRIN>
...
I wish ya Luck Scratch ! if you get it to work you'll have a sort of prepetual motion system there... because as the engine runs it makes its own fuel so it can run.... this has been the goal of many for centuries and nobody has cracked it yet... but that doesn't mean it can't be done ... you just have to be smarter than the average bear!
...
Bob........
 

[Manta]

Bob,

re,....I wish ya Luck Scratch ! if you get it to work you'll have a sort of prepetual motion system there... because as the engine runs it makes its own fuel so it can run.... this has been the goal of many for centuries and nobody has cracked it yet... but that doesn't mean it can't be done ... you just have to be smarter than the average bear...

But isn't this what you've been claiming since day one ?

Manta

[Bob]

Well, YAH !... but on a larger scale... it'll be easier when you have allot of HP to deal with and you can use as much amperage as you want....
you have Much much more lee-way when you go larger than if you go small...
the small size is limiting the HP and therefore the amount of amps you can use to make the Hydroxy gas...
 where if you start wit a Large engine that could turn 30 altenators if needed you are not limited by the AMPS you could USE to make the Hydroxy gas....
...
on the one hand you are trying to do something extreamily hard to begin with, and complicateing it to the point of being rediculas by limiting the amount of amps you can get from it.
and on the other its just a matter of how much LPM you actually need to run the engine ! ...
...
so you see there is a big diference between the two.   Yes I believe it can be done.
but the smaller you make the unit the harder it will be to pull thr rabbit out of the hat and accomplish the task.... where if you can make almost an unlimited amount of hydroxy gas you can power any engine you feel like....
...
I understand that I'm trying to lift myself up by grabbing my boot straps <GRIN>
and that if its almost impossable to do at 2hp what makes me think its going to be any easier with 200hp ?.... but the fact is it takes amps to split the water apart,  and alot of them
I can see where a large engine can make  large amounts of hydroxy gas... but cannot see where that will happen with a small engine.... thats the devideing line!
so to make that simi preptual motion engine that makes its own fuel to run to make its own fuel....etc,etc, it will have to be fairly large  or a SUPER,Super efficient small one...
....
 I don't see it as asking the impossable Manta because I can reason out each part that needs done, but I can't see that happening in a SMALL unit... is all.
...
Bob.....

[scratch1676]

well guys, I am not looking to make a  perpetual motion device.  I am looking for more efficiency from the introduction of hydroxy gas as a supplemental fuel.  I want the motor to run longer on a mix of hydroxy gas and gasoline when compared to running the motor on gasoline only.  Next I will work on the perpetual motion of the device and then on to Telsa's Wardentower death ray so if your from Siberia look out.

[Bob]

Well, its a good thing to discuss... can it be done or not ? run an engine off of Hydroxy gas that is being made by the same engine ?
 according to mainstream science the answer is no it cannot be done, because of the "laws of conservation of motion"  in order to make the Hydroxy gas alone it will take more power than is available from the engine just to make the gas ... and then burning the gas in the engine will
wind up in the hole in the end....this is due to the "it takes more energy to make the energy"
equasions and they are NOT in error... they have been proven time and time again... but something Must be in error somewhere  because it CAN be done... so what gives ?
anytime you change an element into something else it devowers energy...it takes energy to do it.... so if you take energy to convert water to hydroxy gas you have to consume energy to do that work.... the question is can you get enough out of the conversion to make it a self sustaining proccess.... and the Laws of the conservation of motion say NO you can't!
...
 However... we can visulize an engine running on 100% hydroxy gas easily enough, thats not a problem.... and to run my R22 truck engine I have calculated that it will take somewhere between 15 to 25LPM to run it on 100% hydroxy gas.... so now the question becomes can that engine produce enough power to make 15 to 25 LPM of hydroxy gas... and that we already know the answer to.... Yes it can... with Power to spare !
... so the problem now is one of the "Laws of the Conservation of motion" are not agreeing with what we know to be possable... for verious reasons....
and those reasons may well be the problem... Over estimateing our ability to make large amounts of Hydroxy gas with the available amperage. this could indeed be the problem
because if it actually takes 3,000 amps to supply enough power to make 15 to 25LPM of hydroxy gas then the R22 engine may well not be able to turn the altenators needed to supply the power....   But we know thats not the case. as we have seen 54LPM from Bob Boyces 101plate cell and that took somewhere around 200 to 300 amps....
so the LPM generation isn't the problem as we know that can be done
so perhaps its the engine running on 100% that is the problem, perhaps it will take double or tripple my estimates to run the R22 engine if that be the case then perhaps its not possable ?.... but even then at double the estimated amount of Hydroxy gas needed to run the engine
the Hydroxy gas can still be produced by the engines available power !
... we have such an abundance of power available that we can supply almost any amount of hydroxy gas needed to run the engine.... so thats not the problem...
so what is the problem then ?
we know that we can make enough Hydroxy gas to run the engine on 100% hydroxy gas
with the power available....and actually have an abundance of HP left to run the engine to do other things like drive the car...
so to me the "Laws of Conservation of motion" simply don't pan out in this case.
...
 Please feel free to prove me wrong !

the Idea works because it doesn't take that much power to rip water apart and make Hydroxy gas in the first place. and its probably the ONLY element that we can do that to and get away with it.....  It just so happens that we can rip the water apart and use it as fuel to run the engine, to turn the altenator to make the electric power needed to pull the water apart to make the fuel....   if we couldn't come out ahead in the proccess the engine would slow down and stop, but instead the engine could and would speed up.  its the only case in nature that I know of where we can convert and actually come out ahead in the proccess!
.... its the only perverable ever-full bucket..... you can keep takeing stuff out but it stays full all the time.... seemingly impossable but totally reasonable but not by todays sicense, because todays science says it can't be done.... they will have to make allowences to this in the future,...eventually I expect all cars to be powered by water, and out polution problems will be solved in the proccess... but it won't begin until our scientest find a way to reconcile the problems... because right now the laws say it can't be done and their are no exceptions to the rule......  but I know better !
...FWIW...

Bob.......

[Manta]

Bob,
Much as I would like to see you proved right here.  I Think that the problem is we simply don't have the proof that you are claiming is out there.  What we do have is people that can demonstrate they can make lots of hydroxy.  Ok.
We also have proof that engines can run on hydroxy alone. Ok.

But we don't have anyone being able to prove that they can run,  say, a 100 hp engine and make it develop the full 100 hp continually on hydroxy alone.
And we certainly don't have anyone that can show that that engine is producing it's own gas while it does this. No matter how many Amps it makes.

We have had,  until recently,  a couple of people that have made claims of very high mpg from big engines.  But they don't seem to be saying much at the moment. I really would like those people to either say,'this is how you do it'.  Or to say ' Ok, I messed up my calculations,  sorry'.

Either way is fine and honorable .

I reckon that hydroxy will have a use as a supplement.  Maybe more in Diesel engines that are running on veg oil (SVO). But never at 100 % with normal driveability.

Ok guys, prove me wrong.

Manta

[Bob]

HEHEHE ! Hard to prove you wrong when your right on the button Manta !
as You say....Unfortionately that is what we have to go by... I have just put the pieces togather and  clame that it can be done... and I've yet to prove it as well !
and unfortionately its lible to be some time till I can PROVE it.... so till then we will have to go by "Guess and by golly" and Hope that it can be done.
...
I agree that in Most cases Hydroxy gas will be religated to a supilment and not used as 100%
Fear I think will scare most off from trying to run 100% hydroxy gas what with the so called Hydrogen Hardening clames out there and all I don't think many people will risk a $3000.00 motor just to gain a bit of money by not having to fill the gas-tank a few times before the engine blows up.... thats definately not the case, but that is how they will look at it and  with that kind of reasoning you can't blame them one bit!...  we have to go by what we know after all! and to make matters worse thats just a $3000.00 motor and thats a cheep one others go upwards to $8500.00 to rebuild...or more !  so its not something you want to take a chance on,  most guys don't have the ability to do a complete rebuild anymore... so that adds to the expense even more, if you take and blow a Big dodge engine up and put it in a shop and have it fixed you can pay as much as $15,000 just to have it repaired... in many cases more than the truck is worth!.... so 100% hydroxy gas for those guys is more or less out of the question... no matter how much they want it....at least until its proven by someone to not harm the engine !
....
So Yes ...we can make large amounts of Hydroxy gas... but people that have accomplished 8 to 10LPM are rare.... and in all honnesty thats not enough even at that ! so we are not there YET..... but we're getting there fast!... by this fall I expect to see 25LPM by someone here
in our group and 25LPM in a big truck should be Fantastic Gas millage so who ever accomplishes it should be all smiles! <GRIN>
...
I think at the moment we are More hampered by "NOT KNOWING"  than anything else.
I do not KNOW for a fact it will take 15 to 25LPM to run my truck...I am taking an educated guess at it... and thats still Guessing anyway you want to look at it!
 it could be More and it could be less, but I think it should be in that area somewhere...
...if I get my truck running on 100% hydroxy gas and it provides the Hydroxy gas while I drive I could care less if it only developes 100hp instead of 200hp... because its FREE transportation at that point, so its slow ...who cares ! HEHEHEHEHE if it is Too gutt-less I will opt for the suplimental system as well, because I have truble driveing a gutt-less car !
....
so My game plan will be one of a very large output cell and try to find the nessarry power to power the cell, which may take 2 large altenators but I am hopeing that one will do the job
....I have 2 ways to hook it up , one is to use a ball valve connected to the throttle linkage, and the other is to use the fuel injection system that already exhists on the engine... although I have doubts that the latter will work it is non-the-less a possability to try. both methods will require a Pressure regulated Hydroxy source to draw from
which is a danger to have so the volume will have to be small, and well isolated from flashbacks.
...
but Much experimentation will have to be done to determan the correct amount of Hydroxy gas to use and how much air I can allow into the system and still get it to work good
this part is a total unknown... and can make or brake the entire system because if I find that NO outside air can be allowed in the intake that means a great deal more of hydroxy gas will be needed indeed.  While on the other hand if I find I can delute it 50/50 only half of the Hydroxy gas will be needed that I first thought !
I expect to find only about 1/8 to 1/4 the volume can be outside air and the rest will need to be Hydroxy gas.... again that doesn't mean I have to fill each cylinder completely full each time the intake valve opens... that is only needed at full throttle and I do NOT plan on making anywhere near that volume of Hydroxy gas !
...
I think it will work, infact I'm so sure of it...that I am going to try and make it happen
I expect some problems, I'ed be a fool not too <GRIN> but I am hoping that any problems will not be insurmountable!... Time will tell I suppose! HEHEHEHE
...
Bob........


 
 

[Painless]

I wish you luck with your plans, Bob!

Hopefully, when you achieve that huge amount of gas, you won't end up being the first man on the moon via a hydroxy explosion!

Russ.

[Bob]

well, I won't lie...i am a bit aprehinsive about playing around with a large volume of hydroxy gas after seeing what a small amount of the stuff can do ! <GRIN>
thats why I mentioned the Very well isolated Hydroxy storage tank... but we all know about the best plans of mice and men ! its best to assume that if shit can happen, it WILL ! and plan accordingly ! hehehehehe
...
I think for my first experiment on the 3.5 briggs and stratton in the spring I will try a diferent type of hydroxy approach... by instead of forceing the hydroxy gas into the intake
I'll hook the intake directly to the cell and allow air to be drawn in to the bottom of the hydroxy cell via a ball valve, this will allow me to adjust the amount of air the engine sees while recieveing all the Hydroxy gas from the cell...plus a bit more
...but thats if I continue trying to use any of the old cells , which I probly won't as they don't produce very much at all...
 I'll make my new large cell and if I can get the meterial for "in a dip" container great I'll do it that way, if not I'll make a dry cell... and with its output try the little briggs & Stratton  before I move on to the truck... I need to see with my own eyes how much Hydroxy gas it is going to take to run an engine.... this may well change my plans for the truck
as I think most people are thinking my estimates are quite low ...and they may well be.
 A few years back I attained a pressure tank/vacume pot for a large truck and I am sure it will make a dandy storage container for the hydroxy gas if I fit it with a Pop off cap...
....
I would like to make a slide in rack for the truck so I can take the Hydroxy unit out and work on it as I think there will be allot of tinkering being done on it ...perhaps a "accross the bed tool box" would be the answer  and I can just back under a hoist and lift it out.
I am hesitant about useing quick disconnect lines but I think its a must for that sort of thing... but the last thing you want is a seaping hydroxy line in the back if your truck on a bumpy road! ... if I can get around to working on it and not on the Ranch....which is doubtful this year,... I should be able to make some progress fairly fast so it won't be top priority, because I have too many things that need to be done, and there is only one of me !
HAHAHAHAHAHA
...
even if I don't accomplish the 100% truck this summer I do hope to achieve at least 75MPG on the truck... at the very least... that in itself will be something !
and as I will be needing the truck all the time on the ranch... its probly better to go in steps and not take the truck out of the game for any length of time ! <GRIN>
....

I'ed sure like to get the Tractor working on Hydroxy gas too, but I think thats askin a bunch
...it takes a beating and I think I'ed be asking for break downs all the time!
...
ahhhh what ever! it'll all come out in the wash ! HAHAHHA
Bob........

[Manta]

Bob,

re,...Fear I think will scare most off from trying to run 100% hydroxy gas what with the so called Hydrogen Hardening clames out there...

This is a very real fear.  It's proper name is hydrogen enbritlement,  and it could be the end of your engine.  A few month ago at work I had to make up a jig for testing some 12 MM steel setscrews.  These screws had been subject to a hydrogen rich atmosphere.  The test was simple. All the screws were to be tightened down into a drilled and tapped plate to 80% of the shear strength.  None of them got past 60% before the heads sheared off.  Imagine that happening to your valves.
If anyone has been running an engine for some time,  and has the money to spare,  then it would be nice if they could strip down the motor and get the valves examined.
Maybe LtCFisher,  who has the record at the moment,  could help out here.

Manta

[Bob]

The way I understand the Hydrogen Embrittlement problem is that when used in a Pure Hydrogen invirement the Hydrogen seaps into the metal making the metal much more brittle
 However when useing Hydroxy gas ( which is not pure hydrogen) as an additive there are no Ill effects at all...
...
when and if we achieve 100% hydroxy gas to run a car, it is possable that it could be a problem
at some time in the distant future....
Hydrogen embrittlement doesn't happen over night, and the question is does any embrittlement take place at all if the hydrogen is being burned as a fuel source ?
... yes Hydrogen embrittlement is a fact, but what conditions have to be met before the embrittlement takes place and for how long ?
...
  for instance , a storage tank of hydrogen ( steel) is good for aprox 15 to 20 years before
the metal is degraded to a point that the metal is suspect.
and that is holding Pure hydrogen under high pressure.
....
 so if my car lasts ONLY 15 years due to Hydrogen embrittlement so be it. Chances are that burning the Hydroxy gas will remove all the Hydrogen effects or so close to all of them that it could last 100 years!  pluss the fact that its not Pure and not under those extream High pressures.... the effects on your engine can be and probably are neglable.
... My opinion only...I don't know that for a fact!
so underatanding exactly what Hydrogen embrittlement is important to US who use Hydroxy gas on a daily basis.... but the question is...does it even play a part ? or is it just Hype ?
....
my 2 coppers!
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

well I am still waiting on the spare time so I can work on my little motor setup I have put together.  Maybe in a month or so I will get some free time.  I dont have all the cold weather you guys have but I have 22 rent houses that I have to keep up and some times it gets away from me.  Oh, yea dont forget I have a full time job at the boiler house too.  I still want to experiment with this stuff even though the results so far are not that encouraging.  I am waiting on Bob's big cell.  I know you have it in you Bob, just let it out.  :-)

[Bob]

Ahhh... Money is my only obstacle....but it is a major problem most of the time ! HAHAHHA
...I remember hearing Ritta Davenport say" if money will solve it ...its NOT a problem!" but
for some reason it never works out that way for me ! HAHAHAHHA
after all... all you need do then is just get the money...and there are thousands of ways to get the money ...right?   
... hehehehe
...
I have so many "Irons in the fire" at the moment I don't know which end is UP !
I've been at the ranch 6 out of 7 days in a row and still didn't accomplish very much !
...
oh well such is the way it goes ! first ur money then ur clothes ! HAHAHA!
...
Bob........

 

[H²+O]

Ok I think BOB is right when he thinks that we can run an engine on 100% hydroxy gas. because we aren't 'making' hydrogen we are simply removing it from storage..

think of a water fall power-plant (can't think of the name right off the top of my head). that is taking water and turning it into something totally different, electricity. But when we 'make' hydrogen from water we are getting something that is already there.

 (not sure if this has been said in another form somewheres)

Steve

[Manta]

Steve,

But the hydro plant is only using the weight of the water.

To get the hydroxy you have to add power to the water in the form of electricity to crack the h2o. So the whole thing boils down to ' do you use more power to extract enough gas to run the process',  or do you have a net gain. As I mention occasionally,  I don't see 100% hydroxy as viable. But I'd like to see someone prove me wrong.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:   I understand your reluctance, simply because Nature doesn't give anything away...usually!
but the real ishue here is not is it Efficient to run a car on 100% Hydroxy gas...the question is CAN IT BE DONE,... OR NOT....  (obviously I believe it can be)....
  I really could care less if running a car on 100% hydroxy gas is EFFECIENT... or not.. simply because Hydroxy gas is really cheep to make..... not like gasoline !

when Stan Mayer powered his VW Dunebuggy with 6 of his tube cells, he wasn't concerned about breaking the laws of science by doing it... its just a diferent method of fueling the engine...
.... the electricity used to make the Hydroxy gas is way less than the total electricity the engine COULD make under perfect conditions.... so running into Intropy problems isn't an ishue here...... yes it takes some HP to generate the electricity, and we are not working with an unlimited amount of HP, so there is some concern there.
....I guess time will tell..... you may be right.... its hard to say
 but I'll put my money on the 100% Hydroxy gas powered car....<GRIN>
...
Bob...

[H²+O]

Ok this  Hydrogen-Powered Turbo Prius Test Driving a Hydrogen-Powered Turbo Prius
(If you watch the vid) It can go 75miles of 1.6Kg compressed hydrogen gas. well i opened up the calculator on this computer and did a little figuring.....
..........
.......
....
..
.

BAM!!!!
BOOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
And i came up with an answer, it takes 237LPM (Don't freak! that is Liters Per Mile) Ok but you can freak now cause I sent them an email (haven't gotten a responce yet) asking how they drove it on there test.. Because If they drove it like regular then more gas would have been used up PER MINUTE, But if it took them 10minutes to go 1 mile = 6MPH then they would only have used up (hope I'm right on the figure lol) 23.7 LPM!! (Liters Per Minute)

I have this book i got from the library (for some reason this typing thing right now isn't letting me look ant what I'm typing below the scroll, which is the last line  two lines up..)ANYWAY,, It is the 11Th edition and there are several people in the book that  have converted completely to Hydrogen,  Which is stored in hidride (spell check!) tanks, I'll get the name of the book later.
what do you guys think?? BOB especially you!

[Bob]

H2+0.... Steve !
...
  Manta is correct in most things, and this is probably Not the exception...he could be Right here too!....
here's why I say that...

Imagon the smallest 4 stroke engine you can get/make or Obtain... more than likely it will be very small on the order of 1/2inch c.I.D.  so small as to hardly have any HP power at all...
now imagon the largest Altenator that it can turn and still run.... again very small, probably on the order of less than 5 amps....
  Now you can start to see the problem. can that small altenator generate enough electricity to make enough Hydroxy gas to power the tiny motor....
   and as Manta suggests ...the answer is NO.   there is just not enough electrical power there
even though the LPM is very small,  even with a Hydroxy cell that gets 1.5LPM at 10 amps,
scaleing it down to the available power looses efficiency in a big way.
... HOWEVER... the larger the engine is the more effecient its running can become, and the same thing goes with the Altenators....
....
lets take a example... a 10hp Briggs and Stratton, hooked to a 100amp altenator, powering 4-20amp cells that put out 2LPM each....
 with this setup it is far different than the smallest unit you can imagon,because it is of KNOWN VALUES....
  the motor can turn a 100amp altenator at full load ( and we are only loading it with 80 amps not 100amps...)  the cells we know can produce that much hydroxy gas,for a total of 6LPM
the big question now is can the 10HP motor be powered with a mear 6LPM at 100% hydroxy gas...
and its a toss up.... it should be able to, but it may not be able to because its just too lean.
....
with that example we have a MARGINAL system... it might and Might not work.
...
One more example, a 2.4Liter engine turning a 300amp Altenator, powering 4 Cells at 50amps each
getting 5LPM each...
 thats a total of 20LPM for only 200amps and in theory it is more than enough to power my truck engine, even under load.
...
the next step up would be a 5LTR V8 turning 2-300amp alternators powering 10cells at 50 amps each
.... is 50LPM enough to power a big V8 on 100% hydroxy gas ? I dunno but it should be!!!!!
can the engine turn 2-300 amp alternators.... yes obviously!
....
so you can see that as you get bigger in size with the units we begin to have EXCESS horse power and excess electrical power, and excess HYDROXY GAS.....
but everything has to be perfect to do this.....
....
 Most people calculate the Hydroxy gas NEEDS for an engine all wrong... they go by engine displacement and then times the RPM.... and thats totally wrong.... simply because the engine is ONLY useing all that displacement in a FULL THROTTLE siduation.   
most of the time your only pushing on the accelerator a tiny amount.... so how much LPM is that going to take ?   your only useing say 40hp of the available 150hp.... how much hydroxy gas does it take to make 40hp..... not 150hp, because I don't drive at full throttle!
so what I need is some sort of storage tank, to capture the un used HHO and save it for when I accelerate!....

... I'm sure it will work !
...
Bob........

[Bob]

Steve...
I dunno what Hydrite is yet alone what it takes to store that !
... but 23LPM is very wastefull according to my calculations, My pickup can do that good ! LOL
...
the car manifacturers are complicateing up the works so badly that it will take a machanic in your hip pocket to drive the thing....
  it doesn't have to be that way !
...
Bob....