if your running an older Auto... carberated....

[Bob]

if your running an older carberated automobile you might give some serious thought
to making something like this....
I have fiddled with gasoline vaporization extensively over my life and have discovered that it does INDEED WORK.... the problem is keeping it Vaporized.... for me anyway.
...it takes a good Heat riser to make one of these things work.... believe me I know!
 however you can achieve 80mpg or better! I got that much from a copper coil on a manifold
and a needle valve controlled by a rod through the dash !  Super simple! but at the time I was over looking the heat riser.... I now know better ! you must keep the intake air above 110 deg in order to keep the fuel vapor vaporized!
.... the picture below shows a Pogue carburetor... one designed to actually turn the gasoline into vapor... not a mist of droplets
they boast of a 200mpg  achievement  I myself would be happy with 100mpg! LOL
...
Bob....

[Bob]

in this carberator (above) the exhaust gasses were used to Heat the coils of tubing
in which the gasoline traveled before being emitted into the air flow of the intake.
...
 much simplier methods can be achieved...  a copper coil around an exhaust pipe
will be plenty of heat to vaporize the gasoline.
...
 my latest method was to wrap a long length of copper tubing around the exhaust headder pipe and  add a large heat riser to the other side of the engine
 I started the truck on a needle valve of raw gas... which I pre set to give me idle when it was cold.... it worked quite well.
once the engine had warmed up it started running too rich because it was getting vapor as well as raw gasoline, so I had to turn off the idle curcuit. then the engine ran super smooth .... best I ever hurt that engine sound! (318v8 Dodge)  I checked the tempitures and everything seamed OK  I was getting 115~120 deg from my heat riser off the other exhaust pipe on the other side of the engine... so I tried to drive it just using a needle valve on a rod through the dash....  as expected , I had to increase the amount of vapor it was getting by opening up the vapor valve....for more RPM... as the RPM increased however the intake temperature started to drop.... and as I got about a block away from the house it was obviously running on half vapor and half raw gasoline....
I parked and let it warm back up, turned around and went back to the house.... by then it was staggering again... it had cooled down too much to maintain the vapor state.
....
 All it needed was a better heat riser ! and I am sure it would have ran on pure vapor !
 How many MPG's I would have gotten is unknown but I have no doubt it would have been over 100mpg ! ... possibly over 200 mpg to as much as 400mpg as reported by some vaporizer experimenters .

 However... I can't do this on a fuel injected engine ( I don't think anyway)
and my Toyota R22 is F.E.  the old Dodge I was experimenting on is still out there
and I have built a Wood burner for it ... that I have yet to test completely.
so its more or less in a different configuration now!.
...
I KNOW that fuel vaporization really does WORK... you can get as much as 6 times as much MPG that you are getting now... usually more... but that is the expansion rate of gasoline when it turns to vapor... 6 times the expansion !
 vapor retains its explosive power as normal gasoline with only a slight drop in HP due to the Leanness of the fuel load.... rich'en it up a bit and it would be the same!
....
once a good solid vapor "Maker" is obtained, and a heat riser that will maintain the needed 110deg no matter what the RPM is... you can put on a propaine carberator and  adjust the main flow for the perfect blend of air and vapor and you will not have to fiddle with a needle valve !
....
 the ground work has been done... by ME and many others... all it takes now is for some fella to finish the task....
 I have taken way too long to "Get around to it"  so Please feel free to take over !
...
Bob

[janmarsh]

Bob, Keeping the blowlamp design in mind always helps me on this subject !  Having a small quanity of fuel under pressure is obviously required.


Belated Happy New Year to you & the rest of the guys !

                                                Marshall.

http://medlem.spray.se/blowlamp/Function/function.htm

[Bob]

funny you should mention the blowlamp... or Blow torch as I called it...because I have been looking for my old one for a few weeks now... I can't seam to find it and I hope I didn't leave it at the old place ! it was a antique ! ... it ran on gasoline and had a filler cap/pump arrangement... took me a day or two to get the old pump working but after I replaced the leather washer in the pump it worked fine...  my blow torch had a pan under the burner for lighting and it was a very reliable tool ! I used it quite often... in fact that's why I was looking for it, I got a job for it! LOL
I guess I'll have to use the propane torch for now though!
...
I had no idea that they could reach 2000degrees though man that's HOT ! ...
...
running your car on vaporized gasoline isn't quite as easy as a few pumps and light it ! but it does certainly work !
 Myself I achieved 80mpg in my ford Pinto back in the 1980's early 1990's  I made 3 or 4 vaporizers 2 were hot water powered and 2 were ran directly off the exhaust manifold for the heat...
 in order to get the fuel to vaporize using  the water in the engine block I had to change the thermostat to the hottest one I could find (115deg.) but it did vaporize the gasoline very well no droplets of gas at all sprayed out... just vapor!
on that one I followed instructions my brother in law gave me ...where he found them I am not sure. but the guy had a ford pinto just like mine and he was calming 120mpg !
so I copied everything he did... but unknown to me the bottom half of my heat riser on the pinto was missing... so I was doomed to failure from the start! ... the most I ever got with the pinto was 80mpg... but it was a fairly consistent 80mpg... once the summer hit and the weather was warm...  
I found if I wrapped everything in insulation and then wrapped tinfoil around that it helped a bunch.... almost all the staggering went away just by insulation!
...however the original guy's plans said that he lived in Seattle and had no hills to speak of where he drove back and forth to work.... I had a Mt. pass to traverse every day!
.. after a few months of having to fight the needle valve I just gave up and ran the valve in the richest setting so I wouldn't have to keep playing with it.... my gas mileage went down to 40mpg to 45mpg or so.... not bad when the stock pinto got 22mpg !
 I ran it like that for a few months and then the cold weather set in... my gas mileage dropped to 15mpg or so and I took the unit off !
...
 A patented design of fuel vaporization that I have always Loved was simply a box over the exhaust pipe and  a float and needle valve  in the box and a fuel line to it...
 from the top of the box was a pipe to the air cleaner  it had a butterfly valve in there that was controlled by the driver.... that's all there was to it he got over 400MPG !
the auto was an old Ford model A with an up draft carburetor on it.
many people tried to copy it and failed... I am not sure why except to say that the vapor
in the box would pressurize the gas line and shut off the fuel because  those old mechanical fuel pumps could not pump much pressure ! they had rubber flapper valves in them and they stuck all the time!... so today you'd need a fuel pressure regulator to make up for the Older Ford Fuel pump that just happened to stop working at anything over 4psi  LOL
....
the problem with the box around the exhaust pipe idea is the gasoline in it.... when the temperature rises up enough to vaporize the gasoline , ALL the gasoline in the box will vaporize.... that will open the float valve and put in more fuel to be vaporized...
so you can see the problem... unless you have some way of controlling the amount of fuel going into the box when its hot it will keep dumping in fuel till hell freezes over !
... that didn't happen to the inventor.... why  I have no idea but I suspect it was the ford fuel pump that saved him!
 the box is open at the top to the hose or Pipe that goes to the air cleaner so pressure
could not build up in the box... the engine simply drew all the vapor it needed from the box as it ran he controlled how much vapor it got by the butterfly valve near the air cleaner.
...
 its either the fuel pump he used OR the exhaust wasn't hot enough to ever vaporize ALL the gas in the box... just sort of an Ambient heater that allowed gasoline to vaporize when it got close to it...  this is quite likely as well
how he kept the vaporized gasoline in its vapor state all the time even while drawing in large quantities of outside air isn't mentioned at all!  (and that's the part I have trouble with!)  it is a very very old patent but it is a very simple , down to basics design
...
  I am wondering if I could feed vaporized gasoline into the fuel injectors could I get it to work on my R22 FIE ... more than likely it would run way too lean to even RUN!
simply because the volume of vaporized gasoline is much larger than un vaporized gasoline
like 600 times bigger... this means 1/600th of the gasoline needed would be getting into the cylinders to run it.... and I seriously doubt it would even run! ...
 it would be an interesting experiment though! ... I could make a exhaust heated vaporizer and a bigger hot air riser for the intake (its thermostatically controlled on that truck) ....but instead of trying to lean out the gasoline like I have been doing with the Hydroxy generators I'd have to find a way to Richen it up ! LOL
... but if there is a chance for 200mpg I think it would be worth trying!
...
what do you guys think ? could I just plug vaporized gasoline into the injectors and get the thing to run
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Bob,

I need to ponder on this one for a while.


Janmarsh,

All the best to you marshall,

Hope you had a good break.

Dave
(Manta)

[Weapon_R]

Bob

Glad you brought this up.
Finally someone else has seen the way. I have been looking at this for a while. I believe its superior to hho.
Here is why. If you are using this system it works well with a fuel injected system.
Pull the fuel pump fuse and feed vapor via intake. This will not trigger the engine check light.
Car runs perfectly and takes nothing from the engine. Awesome!
One downside is that the additives (added to prevent this type of thing) in the gasoline will gunk up the vaporizer.

[Bob]

Manta...
Being the skeptic that you are  (grin) I'll give you some of the detractors ideas that they have against  fuel vaporization...  just because I KNOW you'll be thinking along those lines... and rightly so !  that way we can get down to the meat of the ishue faster !
 LOL
....
first off they say that you can only get so many BTU's out of a given amount of gasoline
and the way the cars are now they do a fairly good job of milking out as much work as possible for every little BTU they can get!...
but this view point forgets about expanding the VOLUME of gasoline as much as 600 times
does it also expand the BTU ability along with it or not?  
and who is to say that turning gasoline to vapor allows the engine to run on much less BTU's than normal ? (which I am sure is the case)
....
Another thing they say is that turning the gasoline to vapor then burning it in the engine
will make an OVERLY LEAN fuel air mixture and harm the engine....
 this may not be far from the truth, as when I have ran vapor the few times I have I did notice a color change on my spark plugs.... however the engine did not over heat
...
 the people that are for Fuel vaporization point to the early Jet engines as a good example of vaporization.... at first Jet engines ate so much fuel as to make them almost useless ! however when they started vaporizing the fuel it stretched the fuel so much that it made the jet engine a viable engine... they have been vaporizing jet fuel in Jet engines from shortly after the jet engine was invented... they did this to make it run farther on the fuel it had.... the same thing we plan on doing for the automobile ...more mileage .... and the jet engine had been doing it for decades now as a way to stretch every drop of fuel they have.
  so why don't we use this method in our cars today ?    GOOD QUESTION! its old technology! ....and it definitely works.... but you won't see it on new cars because it does work!
....
  Its important to understand that when you turn gasoline into vapor by heat and expand it 600 times you loose some of its explosive ability.... approximately 15%~20% so there is INDEED a slight drop in Horse power.... although I did not notice a lack of power in my Ford Pinto when I got the 80mpg. if anything if felt like there was more power not less
but that is probably because of the smoothness of the engine ...that pinto never ran so good as when it ran on vapor! LOL
...
now when you expand the gasoline to vapor and get 600 times more fuel for the same buck
you also loose some because it takes MORE vapor to run the engine....
not by the standards of taking the same amount of gasoline mist that is in the cylinder and expanding it to vapor , you have allot of vapor there you won't need now.... but
by running my car on the needle valve on vapor and on raw gasoline  I found that I had to have the needle valve open almost 2 times as much as with raw gas.... this is because it is EXPANDED and it takes more of it to make up the same amount.
 you still come out with a gain over all because it expands so far i.e. 600 times the normal volume when you vaporize gasoline.... I expect that is why some guys clam 400mpg
and 200mpg because they are expanding the gas at 600 times but it re-condenses so extremely fast that it is very hard to get it into the cylinder and have it still be vapor and not droplets !  this is where having hot air going into the intake is so important! it keeps the vapor in a vapor state....
....
 before I forget, the major argument against vaporization is that the efficiency of an engine is the heat in to the heat out.... in other words cold air in , hot air out and its more efficient than hot air in and hotter air out....
 and this is very true... but we are not trying to make a 1000hp dragster here we are trying to stretch the gas as much as possible.... who cares if its less efficient ? as long as it gets 200mpg who cares if its "Efficient" or not because the temp in and temp out are closer together... and you loose 20% of the HP in the process ?  I certainly would give up 20% of my HP for 200MPG ...any day !
...
so that's about it
 Form your own conclusions as I know you will, and tell me what you come up with as I value your opinion allot !
...
 I don't Want you to agree with me for the sake of agreeing <GRIN>
...
I believe when all is said and done that 400mpg can be obtained  from fuel vaporization
I say this mainly because that is what the old patent  with the box around the exhaust pipe calmed that he got.... I think his unit worked and worked well.... it is a shame however that nobody has ever been able to replicate his unit.... why I don't know
but I have my suspicions. hehehehhe

...
something to think about is "Leanness" of the fuel air Ratio...a normal car runs around 10:1 to 14:1 in air to fuel ratio... gasoline will still Ignite and explode as lean as 20:1... but any leaner and it gets harder and harder to ignite it. with the difficulty of ignition starting around 18:1....
... now Vapor is a different story all together. 25:1 to as much as 28:1 will still ignite
... this is VAPOR not atomized gasoline... there is a big difference!
... if we can run a car engine at 28:1 fuel to air ratio Plus expand the gasoline 600 times so you have that much more gasoline in your tank...what kind of MPG's do you think we could get ?.... its a 2 fold gain that is what is so neat about it !
 that is Why the figures vary so wildly on clams of MPG

...
Bob....

[Bob]

Weapon-R
 
 I was not aware of any "stuff" in the gasoline that would make it "Gunk Up" but it would not surprise me in the least!
  the extensive use of Alchol however only helps the gasoline to vaporise easier as it has a lower vaporization temp than raw gasoline...
....
 the coil or LOOPS of copper tubing I used on the ford Pinto's exhaust manifold I used or had it in place for over 2 years.... ran the vaporizer in summer mainly
it rattled around under the heat shield for a long time and never did spring a leak... and I never noticed any gunk formation inside the tube but that doesn't mean much ! LOL
...
 I think by injecting the Vaporized gasoline into the fuel line that feeds the injectors
you'd get NOTHING because its going to take about 2 times the volume they normally give out in order to run on vapor..... I think anyway!
which means a new chip or something in the electronic fuel injection to lengthen out the time the injector is on! ... if we could do that its easy as Pie to change to vapor!

... still have to have hotter air into the intake to keep it vaporized... at least 110 deg
and then you have it.
 the vaporizer could be exhaust powered or electric or what ever as long as it can maintain 110deg it will vaporize the gas
....
completely off the subject but a guy made a electric Vaporizer one time by using a electric motor and a squirrel cage blower half submerged in gasoline... this wasn't actually a VAPORIZER just a real real good atomizer... he got over 124MPG with his set up and tried to market it, and they (the big oil companies) squashed him like a bug.
... one thing for sure ...if you do make a vaporizer give the plans away don't try to sell it and get rich on it because then your a prime target!.... Pogue had the same problem and there are many others in the dirty laundry list!
...
Bob.....


 

[Weapon_R]

Bob

Here is an experiment for persons to try. Take a cotton rag and wet it in gasoline.
Then bunch up the rag and stuff the rag into the intake manifold.
You could also lightly spray gas on the air filter.
Disconnect the fuel pump and try starting the vehicle which should start.
300+ mpg is easily attainable using a wicking material like thick cotton dipped at
one end in gasoline so the gas makes its way up the material and is vaporized.
This method can also be used to vaporise water.

Bob what type of gasoline were you using with your vaporizer?

That illustration is excellent. I find you design looks very close to my own.
I have not built the unit as yet but its in the works.
Few things I want to point out.
Vaporized gasoline burns much cooler. In fact if fuel is leaned beyond 20:1 the result is a much cooler burning mixture.
This is contraty to what we have been told.
Vaporized gas can also be used to supplement gas in an ice similar to hho.

[Bob]

humm never thought about using it as a "Suppliment" to normal gasoline LOL
...
I ran regular... leaded gasoline at the time... now they don't have leaded gas
until relitively recently the old Dodge had the vaporizer on it and I was using unleaded regular gasoline in it... it worked great when the truck was just sitting there not moving
... it smoothed out, quieted down and just purred along nicely
but try to move anywhere and it started breaking down the vapor back into normal gasoline
... I don't think it was in the Vaporizer itself as I had almost 25feet of 3/8"copper tubing wrapped around the 2.25" exhaust pipe near the exhaust headder pipe connection
I covered it with tin foil...
 I fed the bottom end of the coil with gasoline from my electric fuel pump...
I think I had a check valve on that end as well but I'm not positive ...its a good idea at any rate! ...  so the vaporizer was large enough to supply 2 or 3 trucks with vapor !
so I don't think it was the vaporizer running out of capacity... I am almost certain it was the cold air entering the intake, that caused the vapor to re-condense...
 its easy to tell if its re-condenseing simply because the engine starts to run crapy misses and staggers because of a too lean condition. 

...
 Yes in many ways the Gasoline vaporization method can and may over shadow the Hydroxy gas method. the gains are higher by far... the only thing that will save Hydroxy gas is getting the vehicle to run on 100% Hydroxy gas ...so no gasoline is needed at all  THEN it will be by far better than gasoline vapor! <GRIN>
 ...

 Thinking about making a vaporizer as a SUPPLIMENTAL unit could be interesting indeed!
I've alwayse tackeled  it as 100% vapor ...not an additive... but there is no reason why you couldn't do it that way... in fact it may well be far easier to accomplish!
...
 However in order to do that you need to reduce the raw gasoline the engine is running on normially... just like in Hydroxy gas!   
 if I leaned out my little pickup to barely run normially you know....stagger around type lean... then add a vaporizer to make up the difference the gains should be significant!
...
...
My truck has a Long "Snorkel" intake tube from the air cleaner to the intake horn
and it would be easy to Pipe in a "vapor En richer" to the intake.
however the intake on my truck is vurtually un heated.... no hot air riser to speak of... it has one but its rather pathetic! LOL
...
so in hansing the hot air riser and adding a Vaporizer  shouldn't be all that dificult!
...
 I wonder if you could use a Randy cell to BOIL gasoline ?
boiled gasoline = vaporized gas !

 or perhaps a Coffee cup warmer hooked to 12vdc would heat up enough to make vapor ?
or a heater coil.... obviously
...
 its an interesting idea  I may have to test it !
...
Bob...
 

[Bob]

I've been thinking of a Smaller "Supplemental Vaporizer" for gasoline vaporization
and I think the best approach would be a metal box that can be sealed air tight
an electric heating coil or two, a float valve (brass w/brass float) and a gas line fitting
and a larger hose to the intake.
the idea is not to boil away all the gasoline in the box but keep it boiling all the time
as vapor is used up fresh gas will be added into the can so a level of gasoline will be maintained.
... Plumbing the box would be simple... a gas line to supply gasoline and a larger hose to take the vapor to the intake of the engine.
...
Assuming all parts and hoses are insulated and covered with tin-foil real good, vapor should remain in the vapor state till the intake manifold or Hose... at that point the intake air has to be 110 degrees or more to keep the vapor in its vapor state !
 it all hinges on the intake air being 110 deg or more other wise the vapor will "Flash condense" and not be vapor any more and you've lost what you have gained!
... if you consider that doing this to my toyota truck (R-22 EFEI,5 spd 2wd) the only real obstical is the "heat riser" ...
 My experience on my Dodge's heat riser showed me a good way to gather allot of hot air
by clamping copper tubing on to the exhaust pipe...with large hose clamps and funneling up the hot air from these tubes to the intake....
...
if you can manage to keep the vapor in the vapor state all the time in all driving conditions including winter travel... then there is no reason to run any Raw gas any longer... but that's another problem, throttling vapor!
...
if I did this to my truck and rationed back the raw gasoline the injectors are squirting into the engine all the time I could see a large gain in MPG
...
...
...
 Cold vapor is another method as Weapon-R mentioned... but its not as efficient as heated
however it may cure the heat riser problem completely !
...
 I was thinking a large box in the back of my truck with about 20 cooler pads in it
 soaking up gasoline that is in the bottom of the box (Float level controlled )
drawing air off the top of the cooler pads would be giving you vapor so you could pipe that right to the intake...just remove the air filter and use the box as your air-filter!
 ... you could seal the box and add aquarium air stones to help bubble the gasoline by drawing air through the gasoline ...
if you went crazy with that idea you could do away with the cooler pads! LOL
 I don't know if you could get ENOUGH vapor using the COLD method but you Should be able to ...at least on hot summer days! LOL
...
Bob....

[janmarsh]

Bob,  I've thought of using one of those dip in your coffee mug heater elements to supply the vapourising heat.   The type that plug in to your lighter socket.

                                                              http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/12V-HOT-WATER-HEATER-KETTLE-ELEMENT-NEW-TEA-COFFEE-VOLT-/370532066790?pt=UK_Car_Accessories_Touring_Travel&hash=item56456ea5e6

[Bob]

great idea Marshal ! ...
some of those if not all however are thermostatically controlled and will just heat the water to just below the boiling point...
and I also think your going to need more volume than a little heating element can make.
but I can well be wrong on that !
...
when heating something like gasoline to the vaporizing point  I think most of you would find it very interesting ! the gasoline will absorb the heat to the point of vaporization
and it will do it very well up to that point but once it "Flashes into vapor" (and it does this in nano-seconds....very fast) the heat the vapor absorbs is done so very very slowly after that... therefor getting vapor Hotter than the vaporization point is not an easy task, it takes a bunch of heat and time to do so !  and there is no need to get the vapor HOTTER than the point of vaporization either. except as a way to keep it in the vapor state.


Another major problem that I ran into with gasoline vaporization is the "icing effect."
You can have Icing of a carburetor on a hot summer day if the conditions are just right
and the same thing goes for Vapor in fact it is easier for Vapor to cause Icing than raw gasoline ... anytime you lower atmospheric pressure you lower the temperature this is a known law  and it applies to vaporizers as well...

so if you have a -20.lb intake vacuum pressure  and you put your Hot vapor into that manifold it will instantaneously drop temperature... and re condense and you loose your vapor just by entering a vacuum.
...
 its very possible that this is the main reason that Automakers have abandoned vaporizers.
...
 
 THIS IS A MAJOR problem  ! and will make or break a vaporizer system.
 I tried to super heat the vapor on the Dodge to get over this temperature drop... and it worked fine at Idle but not at 3000RPM
...
 this problem makes some engines better for vaporization than others... as I have worked on many engines and have noticed a running vacuum pressure from as little as -8 lbs to as much as -20.lbs
...

so  Anyone thinking or working on Gasoline vaporization needs to consider the vacuum of the engine ... it can and Will undo all your hard work before the vapor gets to the cylinder!
...
Bob....

[Manta]

Bob,

...although I did not notice a lack of power in my Ford Pinto when I got the 80mpg. if anything if felt like there was more power not less...

So my question has to be,  why don't you still use this system ?


Dave
(Manta)

[janmarsh]

Ultrasonic foggers !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hzgqxEU0sVc