a Question about dry cells

[sibernetik]

Hello everybody

first  I'm sorry for my English

i now  basic electrolysis laws (1,24 volt for cell , reaction surface area , electrolytes(KOH Na OH vs ))

if we use 12 volt for our cell  basically we use 6 separate cell for best efficiency

Our water must be separate for others

But when i analyze tero cell or other dry cell units , all cell's waters contact others,finally can we tell this work like single cell or not ?

Only Bob BOYCE make 61 separated plate system and he add a water fill mechanism for his electrolyser unit.(not problem)

Similarly Joe cell have got separate cells too (not problem)

but i cant understand how,other dry cells work efficiency.How,combined cells act as separated cell ? ¿

i wait your answers

Thanks already

[Bob]

Well First off the tero-cell or what ever it is called where the water/electrolyte is mixed for all the plates is NOT as efficient as say the Bob Boyce cell where the electrolyte is kept separated.
 HOWEVER... the amount of LOSS is very small... and the amount of efficiency gained is so small by keeping the water/electrolyte separated is not worth the hassle when you consider how easy it is to have one tube to keep ALL the cells full
...
  when You have a positive plate at one end and a negative plate at the other and all the plates in between them the Voltage is divided between the plates, ok we know this already... but it is ONE cell
not 6 or 7 separate cells, simply because of Convention, or common use of the term... nothing more.
...
 I tend to count my Cells by their Hookup wires.... between the positive and negative hookup wires is one cell.... and yes that can be a HUGE CELL as in something like Bob Boyce's 101 plate cell... to me it is still ONE cell.... not 100 cells in series, (or what ever it is)
...
 Keep in mind that the 2 end plates are the only DRIVEN plates and that the plates between the end plates are Neutral plates... they have no power going to them at all.
 However each of the neutral plates are "Excited" by the end plates, the electromagnetic field generated powers each of the neutral plates regardless of their proximity to the end plates each of these "Neutral Plates" receives the same amount of power.
 this happens because of the FLOW of electrons, electricity like water will take the path of least resistance....but it will only flow as fast as it can through the medium....
 in this case the water/electrolyte.
  the Electrolyte has a great deal of resistance in it... and that makes it hard to draw say 40 amps in a Dry cell... it takes a Maximum concentration of electrolyte to achieve a good amp draw because of it.
....
 When you start considering "Efficiency" of a cell usually means how many Amps does it take to get 1 liter per minute HHO output. and that equates into "Efficiency" .... but Not everyone considers this , some people are concerned with "output vs Heat" or even "Heat vs amp draw" regardless of the output the cell makes.
 to me its simple Cell efficiency is simply "Output Vs Amps" the more hho output you have per amp used, the more efficient the cell is
....
years ago getting 1LPM output for 20 amps used was considered fairly good efficiency...
Now days its 2LPM of output for 20amps used is the Norm for good efficiency and I have yet to see any real concrete evidence that anyone has beat that 10:1 ratio YET !
 However getting that kind of efficiency out of a dry cell is not as easy as it sounds
the average is closer to 1.25 to 1.5LPM per 20amps... and that is considered a good Dry cell!
...
the "Randy cell" here on this forum is a Wet cell... or a cell in a dip ... yet it achieves the 10amp to 1LPM ratio every time.  
....

Another point is when the water/electrolyte from between 2 plates mixes with another area of between the adjacent 2 plates, does not keep the cell from operating,  it is said that Current Leakage Occurs at that point. which is supposed to go directly into generating heat. but I seriously doubt much heat is made because of current leakage. more than likely current leakage that generates HEAT will be directly to the ground from the positive terminal, not from the excited plates, that doesn't mean it cannot happen it just means its Unlikely to happen.
...
when You think of 2 metal plates as being 1 cell you start to get confused when you have 12 plates in a row.... is that 6 separate cells or simply one cell with 12 plates ?
 the answer is simple... its one cell with 12 plates
...
 you could hook up 6 separate 2 plate cells
or you could hook up 1 cell with 12 plates
...
its just on how you look at it Mostly <grin>
...
Bob


  

[Brad4321]

It has been a few years since I did anything with dry cells, and they were all 7 plate tero cells. They worked well except for their large tenancy to boil (no recirculating water or reservoir). Each plate was energized, there were no neutral plates. Having a small hole in the bottom of the cell keeps the fluid level equal for all plates. It does cause a small loss of efficiency as there is some current leakage, but not enough to be concerned about, like Bob said.

I have never done those huge monstrous cells and can't comment on those. I fail to see what benefit they have over multiple tero or randy cells. For what we known now, a few wet cells to get your LPM requirement is a more efficient setup than any dry cell. It is much easier to plumb a reservoir, or even recirculating electrolyte to keep them cool and full than a dry cell. One of my old dry cells to a randy cell in a container is about the same physical dimensions, but the randy cell has more stored electrolyte than the dry cell.

[Manta]

Sibernetik,

Hi,

I've never seen a dry cell,  let alone built one.  But the answer may be that with a dry cell there is no way for 'leakage' of current around the edges of the plates.
I would tend to believe that ten (12/1.2)  seperate units would be best,  and it is one thing I'd like to check out when I eventually get around to it. The problem would be the physical size of the complete unit.

When Is a cell not a cell ?  Here I tend to disagree a bit with Bob.  I still consider a cell to consist of a pair of plates (either one of each or pairs of inter meshing plates as long as each pair is conected to one pos and one neg supply;  like two interlocking hair combs) A set  of separate cells connected in series is a battery.  Very similar to a standard car battery.

We've been chewing this over for a long time and still can't agree on it.

By the way,  where are you located ?

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Ok Manta ...do you consider the Randy Cell one cell or 6 cells ?
after all each pair of plates are connected to power.... because the plates are in Parallel rather than in series like most dry cells?
...
 I consider it One cell because it has only 2 connections to power , pos. and neg.
 but I tend to Disagree that a bunch of SINGLE cells in a group would probably do better over all
and here's why...
...
Say we had 12 plates made into 6- 2 plate cells and their spaced 1/32" apart, each pair of plates
connected individually to power. each cell in their own bath.
 done this way  there is only 2 working surfaces in each cell...
...
if they were hooked in parallel , i.e. +-+-+-+-+-+-  every plate in the group would be using both sides of the plate except the 2 end plates.... so more surface area is being used .

 Now if the surface area was increased to match the same amount in the individual cells
there would probably be no difference in the output at all...
...
 but as Randy would say "I've seen cells do some mighty strange things and its really hard to tell exactly what the cell is going to do till you test it!"
...
 A Dry cell can suffer from Current leakage simply because the electrolyte feeds all the plates from left to right... the holes in the plates allow electrolyte to come in and HHO gasses to excape.  this allows stray electrons to flow  to the wrong direction sometimes...
 for example .
 a dry cell with a hole in the plate on each plate on the bottom right of each plate to allow electrolyte to flow in and a hole in the top left to let gas out has all the holes lined up and its easy for current leakage to take place...
 on the other hand if you alternate the holes so that path is twice as long  almost no current leakage will take place...
  ...
I remember reading where a fella made a Dry cell and had trouble with it over heating...
in fact it got so hot that it boiled the electrolyte. come to find out he did have all the holes lined up top and bottom of each plate.
by simply re stacking the plates in an alternating fashon the heat problem was solved, but another problem cropped up, his output increased to the point that the pressure inside the cell forced leaks to appear all over the thing... he then drilled out the holes to a larger size and that solved his problem . last I hurd he had achieved 4LPM at 43~45amps with that cell and that was the best dry cell I have ever hurd of ! (he used max concentration of KOH)
...
 Current Leakage takes place in a cell all the time its part of the game , you can't get around it
especially on parallel connected cells,  you can eliminate it however  but it takes Isolated electrolyte pockets to do it... and that is usually more trouble than it is worth.
if you are not running a Maximum concentration of electrolyte then your current leakage will be very low indeed.... simply because the electrolyte is too weak to carry much current in itself
...i.e. the resistance in the electrolyte is too High.
if you use a max concentration of electrolyte and your Resistance in the electrolyte is fairly LOW  then you can experience a great deal of current leakage...
...
 Current leakage can rear its Ugly head, but in most cases you'll never even notice it.
...

 But its always good to hear differing opinions , as it makes a person think ! <GRIN>
...
Bob...

[sibernetik]

i think  pure water can be bad conductive but if we use any electrolyte with water, I'm sure its very good conductive SO if we don't separate cells,current leakage is inevitable and Bob tell true,current leakage cause of heat.

meanwhile (by the way) what do you think about High voltage units like Ravi cell,Meyer cell,Aaron cell etc...

are this units  or this techniques  are myth or true ?

1 year ago i worked on ravi cell.it worked bad because my  2 x 555 Dave Lawton PWM circuit is wrong    

when i have got an oscilloscope,i can see my bad waveform.

Near time i try it again.

Thank you.i follow you    

[sibernetik]

Manta i am sorry

i am from TURKIYE  between Europe and Asia,between iran,greece,iraq,syria,russia   

[Bob]

Well, pure water is about the best INSULATOR out there.... meaning it won't conduct electricity worth a darn!
 ok its also not usable to us in its pure form because of that. adding KOH or Lemmon aid to the water will raise the conductivity of the water.  (that we already know)
 the problem is there is always a great deal of RESISTANCE in the electrolyte...
 I Mixed up a Max saturation batch of KOH one time just to measure the resistance in the electrolyte
and to my surprise it was still very high in resistance... (I don't remember exactly what it was now but I think it was something like 27,000ohms ,)
  it is this resistance that gives us most, if not ALL the heat in the cells... lowering the resistance  also means you are able to draw more amperage through it.... that in turn raises the heat again.
  Keep in mind that when work is being done Heat is being made, there is no way around that
but you can try to make sure the heat that is being made is ONLY being made from the work... not from "current leakage", internal shorts and such like.
...
 High voltage cells are dangerous to mess with. however they do indeed seam to work very well indeed.
 Bob Boyces 101 plate cell used 220vac rectified into DC to operate his cell the output was supposed to be something like 40LPM  and it must be true, because many welding shops have built Bob's cell for welding/cutting purposes... and a torch takes a bunch of LPM !
...
 Stan Mayers's cells were tube cells that were tuned to harmonic frequency of the input voltage
supposedly it worked very well because he drove a VW dune buggy around his place on HHO gas alone for about a year before disconnecting it.  
  ...
  All in all I really do not know what to think on HF voltage in a cell, on one hand it makes sense that Radio frequency voltage oscillations may well break loose the molecules easier than the brute force method...
  simply using a higher voltage source , say from an inverter to jump the voltage up to 110vac , rectify it and feed the cell with that, has allot of promise as well but you will be limited on the amperage you can push at the cell...
 if you consider calculating everything into Watts then you can get a better picture of what is going on   on one hand 110dc and 20 amps equals 5.5 watts....( p=i/e )
 12vdc and 20 amps equals  0.6 watts   so raising the voltage raised the usable power a great deal.... but you can't always do it that easy...
usually, raising voltage takes away amperage big time... so if you raise the voltage to 110vac you only have a few amps of 110 that you can use .... not 20 any more..... and that is the major problem of going to high voltage.
 is it worth it ? probably not. but done correctly you can get a Massive amount of power into the cell using High voltage. more power means more work can be done and that means more gas production
... using High voltage to operate Hydroxy cells is still in its beginning stages, I think we will see major changes in this direction in the future.
...
Bob....

[Manta]

Sybernetik,

I'll come back to the question on cells later as I'm just passing through at the moment.

I've visited your country back in the eighties.  I drove through it when traveling from Iraq to the UK; where I live.  It took me the best part of two days.

Catch you later.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Manta must be heading out to fix the muffler on his car again ! LOL !
 Come on Manta lets hear what you think on the subject, regardless of what I say... I value your opinion even if your exhaust pipe doesn't ! hehehhehe
...
Bob....

[sibernetik]

Manta i  am a music teacher.i am working this winter season(now)  but when i will be in holiday (2012 summer ) i can quest you  ( you can visit me )     Bob and u together so u can see TURKIYE again.

Please type my nickname right  Manta

Thank you very much your answers.


Bob i think this equality is wrong on your post
"on one hand 110dc and 20 amps equals 5.5 watts....( p=i/e )
 12vdc and 20 amps equals  0.6 watts " 

P=V.I   so 110 volt x 20 amps = 2200 watts     

i am sorry  sometimes i cant understand your some words and sentences.

Thanks again

[Bob]

LOL  Humm your correct ...sorry about doing the math wrong. half the time any more I choose the wrong formula to try and get the values I want , and then can't figure out why the numbers are so LOW! HEHEHHE
 However , obviously you got my point, so that is what matters
....
  Thanks for the offer, but you'll never catch me in that country. as I never go more than 200 miles away from home it seams LOL
...
 I am sorry for my Poor English, it makes it very hard to translate... but I really can't help you much in that as this is the way I speak <GRIN>   I know 2 languages, Morse code and bad English. and my Morse code is so rusty I doubt I could go 5 words per minute any more HAHAHAHAH!
...
  As you have caught me in a mistake already, you must realize I am no expert in the field of Hydroxy Cells, just a guy that likes them and uses them and loves to experiment on stuff.

...
Bob...

[Manta]

sibernetik

My apology for the spelling error.

Thanks for the offer,  But I spend my holiday time in Greece.  I have come to the conclusion that Turkey is not a good place for European women to be in. My wife won't go near it.  I do know that this is not a problem everywhere,  but it only takes one 'bad experience' to ruin the whole holiday.


Dave
(Manta)

[sibernetik]

Yes you are true Manta . Nowadays TURKIYE is not safe.We are change.Radical religion and fascism  change us : (

[Manta]

Sibernetik,

Firstly my sympathies to all the people who have been effected by the latest earth quake. I have only ever felt two very small quakes;  no damage from either. So I can only imagine what a really big one is like.

As for the problems that are caused by the radicals,  there is little you can do as an individual.  just lead a good life and hope that things will settle down again.

Are you starting to build a cell at the moment?  And is there any kind of Turkish hydroxy gas website ?

@Bob,

...i am sorry  sometimes i cant understand your some words and sentences...


Don't worry about that,  sometimes we can't understand him either.

It gets easier with practice.

You'll notice that we are easily distracted and will shoot off in a non - hydroxy direction at the slightest excuse. Feel free to join in.

What kind of music do you teach,  Western or Eastern?  I like classic Arabic misic but can never find out the composers or the players.

Dave
(Manta)