100% Hydroxy powered Pickup!

[Bob]

 The title says it, that is what I plan to do !
In my head I think I have all the kinks and problems worked out, or at least have 2 or 3 alternitives for every one that may arise!
...
the Truck will be my 1995 Toyota 2WD 5spd Trans R-22 Fuel injected pickup truck
 I have had hydroxy generators on and off this truck for a few years now
my modifications include timing adjust,Mass air flow adjustment to 2 clicks on the lean side.
a "Tent-pole Condom" over the Oxygen sensor to seal it off from the exhaust gas but still leave it in the heat of the exhaust... and a "Matt Valve" that is a garden hose and inline valve that simply goes around the Mass air flow sensor, so more air can go by the sensor than it knows about and this allows me to lean out the gas very easily.
... other than that right now I have the standard Hydroxy generator of "IN A DIP" style, a long bubbler, a 300amp continuious duity Relay to turn it on and off with,a 40 or 50 amp circuit breaker in line with the cell, and a lighted toggle switch on the drivers side dash to turn on or off the cell. (this switch throws the large 300amp relay)
...
 the cell I'm running at the moment is an Old "Randy cell MKI"...(With the shimstock)
seams to be working well after being used for about 8 months and then cleaned and then removed and thrown in the shed for about 2 years... now its back in action and working fine
... I'm Running Lemonade Koolaid as the electrolyte... I have given up on KOH as it gets dirty too easy and coats the plates lowering production...
....
  So My plan is to make at least 8 cells (similar to the one I am using now).... put them each in their own container., Mount them on a rack to fit in the back of the pickup, along with their own bubbler.
 I plan to feed at least 2 bubblers from the 8 cells , I may need more bubblers I don't know yet, I'll feed the bubblers with 1/4" line from each cell but take 1/2" line from the bubbler to the intake manifold just infront of the throttle body... I will probably have a water trap in that line before the intake manifold.
... I'll have to invest in a 300amp altenator fairly soon if i am to get off the ground with this project  <GRIN> I'll run probably no#4 cable from the Battery to the line of cells on both the Neg and Positive sides... (an alternate to that is using Arc welder cable leads) but as long as they can handle 250~275Amps continiously I don't care what the cables are.
 from here it depends on what I find in the operation of the truck goes like
 I believe 8 cells with 2LPM each will make my engine run at 3000+RPM no load so obviously I will have to throttle it...
  I "SHOULD" be able to use the throttle body on the intake manifold to control the Volume of Hydroxy gas and have it controled by the throttle like normal... this is one of the big UNKNOWNS that I will have to figure out as I do it.
 I may be able to block off all outside air and just feed the intake with the 1/2" hose
(it will probably be sucked flat!) but only time will tell on that.
...
Next will probably come a Small storage container for the HHO and pressure switches to turn off cells when not needed...this may or may not come into play at this stage in time as I may make it first so I can control the cells automatically.
...
my goal is not to make enough Hydroxy gas to have the engine reach top RPM just 3000 to 3500RPM is more than enough for me . so there is a possibility that I might run out of gas while pulling a long hill or carrying a load or both...
....
I plan on starting the truck on gasoline and then turning off a switch installed in the fuel line going to the injectors, once its running on HHO... this may or may not be necessary
or even feasible if I have to cap off all outside air going to the engine... if that's the case then I'll just cap the fuel line for the time being. and start it on HHO alone.
...
thats the plan
 got any comments ?
fire away !
...
Bob...


 

[crb]

Bob,
What ever happened to running your B&S engine on hho?
crb

[randy]

I've thought about running on hho exclusively myself, here's my thoughts, eliminate intake manifold, just flat plate with a 1/2" hose barb for each cylinder is needed, hoses connect to a gate valve manifold, other side of gate valve goes directly to bubblers, each cylinder line and bubbler output has flashback protection, inline with bubblers is a low capacity boost storage, an ecu would need to be developed for controlling output of the cells, the actuator for the gate valve would also control the ecu, a spring loaded ball check valve with a filtered inlet would be connected to the inlet side of gate valve also, this would prevent the "suck flat" problem, and allow extra air intake if needed, when starting the gate valve would have to have a total seal, once the boost storage is up to pressure the engine is turned over then the gate valve opened to prevent charging the exhaust system with hho before startup,"this would be a bad thing". the best thing for the boost storage that comes to mind would be a hot water bottle, rubber enema type,hahaha make a surrounding container larger then the bottle, the bottle would inflate like a balloon, if a flashback occurred it would just pop like a balloon and not send shrapnel flying "hopefully"

[Bob]

CRB:
mainly I could not change the spark far enough retarded to get the engine to run....
all it wanted to do was fire, spin the engine backwards and pop the safty cap on the generator
...( didn't have a bubbler on it at that time, just a pop off cap on the generator)
...even though I had more than enough HHO to run the engine  I could not get the timing close enough to TDC in order for it to run...the closest I could get the B&S engines was about 8deg advanced (5hp) and about 12deg on the 8hp...  I needed about -2 to -5 deg ATDC in order for it to run...
  so i simply gave up on it for the time being... I didn't want to have to re invent the wheel to test the theory ! LOL
...
Bob....

[Bob]

Randy...
 I like the idea of the Innima bag for the Acculumator tank HAHAHA  may look funny but I bet it would work slick !
...
 Gate Valve ? interesting thought !  but all the gate valves I know of had like 3" of threads you had to screw in to get the valve to close... or open bunches of turns...
now that I think of it I saw a gate valve on a sewer-tank truck that just had a lever that pushed the plate back and forth... hummmm great idea that !
...
a single large ball valve (brass so you can adjust its tightness on the inside) would make the on off movement in 90 degrees....
...
 your "Suck-flat Preventer" could be just a filtered check valve... a large "foot-valve"
or something like that...
...
 personally I like the idea of high vacuum in the engine as long as its not too strong,
max vacuum is -20psi and I suspect it would reach that and stay there with the outside air plated off.... but vacuum acts like a Spring just like small pressure does.... it would push or SUCK the pistons up instead of having to be Pushed by the crank ... just the oppisit of normal ware and tare. open a valve and the Hydroxy gas would Rush in ...almost turbo-charged because of the vacuum ! ... so don't fight the vacuum....use it to your advantage! HAHAHAHAHHAHA
...
Bob...

[crb]

A 2" hole, gate valve, or butterfly valve will pass approximatly 300 cfm.
crb

[Bob]

I drew up a basic diagram for my 10 cell unit for 100% hydroxy on the truck
 it will take a Minimum of 200amps to run it correctly and get out the 20LPM for near full throttle operation of the truck
...
 this does not show how I will control the cells when I am Not using all the Gas being generated however.... its just the starting point
...
...
 here's the picture
Bob...
 

[Bob]

 I think what I will do is have a few cells that are on constantly and 1 or 2 stages that kick-in as the demand for HHO goes up.
 to arrange this I will need a few more relays controled by pressure switches, these Relays will control the power to the cells... in parallel with the line coming off the first relay
so I will probably have 3 groups of cells
which may be as follows...
4 cells for Idling and slow speed
3 cells for medium speed that kick in to assist the 4 starting cells
3 cells for the high speed that kick in to add to all the others
...
a Small pressure pot out of 4" ABS or PVC pipe with a 2" pop off cap for the pressure tank
this tank will have a pressure gauge on it and 2 pressure switches one set at 5~7psi the other set to 7~10 psi... that is to say when the pressure drops below 8psi the first set of 3 cells will kick on
in addition to the 4 starting cells that are already on.... when pressure drops below 6psi the 2nd set of 3 cells will kick in to the already running 7 other cells making all 10 cells being on .
as soon as the pressure comes back up to 6~7psi the 3 cells will Kick out leaving  the system running on just 7 cells  as the pressure continues to gain to 8~9 psi the other set of 3 cells will be switched off leaving only the 4 starter cells running the truck....
 I expect that the 4 starter cells will not be able to sustain the running truck very long by them selves  so that the 1st set of 3 cells will be turning on and off most of the time.
  Ideally I'd like to have an amp gauge on the dash for each set of cells , as well as a pressure gauge on the dash for the pressure pot.
a manual switch for each set of cells on the dash as well to give me extra control over the system
...
 I'll draw up a diagram for how I have it envisioned  so you guys can help me trouble shoot any problems before I build it <HEHEHEHHE> 
...
Bob...

[Bob]

heres a drawing of the Imagined setup...
it has 3 sets of 4 cells making a total of 12 cells instead of 10 but the idea is exactly the same
... I plan on injecting the HHO right before the throttle body on the intake manifold  and using the throttle body to control speed like normal.... this may work and it may not... all I can do is try it and see !
...
Bob...

[Bob]

 I just saw a problem with my drawing... it simply won't work unless I put a ball valvebetween the pressure pot and the bubbler because all the pressure made will just go out through the bubbler and never switch off the 2 sets of generators because no pressure will build up... I have to have a ball valve there... so it will have to be my throttle or linked with the throttle
...
Bob.......

[H²+O]

wondering if you could do something like this to save space? because that would be alot of abs pipe! something i was thinking is that the bubbles that come off the plates are super small, but  they form big bubbles that splash water and E/lite getting it in the line and then into the engine (which hasn't really been a problem as of yet for anyone). heat is the only problem i see form that...

taking a piece of ABS pipe, lets say 3" for that amount of gas, and then taking another piece of 3" cutting out strip all the way down it so it fits snug in the main bubbler. Then take some fine ss screen and cut the inner pipe every 1" or so so it filters out the bubbles and gives it much less splash.

me and my bro are buying a 78 volvo 240 DL (gas carbed, not diesel) with a SU Carb on it. he wants to test the hho on it so i'm ordering parts for 4 randy cells, with 2" washers. something i was wanting to do was (like in another thread) put a amp limiter to each cell, so each cell can only draw 20-25 amps MAX.

steve

[Manta]

Bob,

... I may be able to block off all outside air and just feed the intake with the 1/2" hose...

I can't see this part of the plan working.
The sheer volume of air that is sucked into the engine will collapse your system and try to pull it all into the bores.
Maybe some kind is spring -loaded flap that comes in when required will help.  I dunno though.

Randy, what do you think ?

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

Yeah, It's gonna need some kind of air inlet valve.

[Bob]

Yah I agree !
  looks to me like if I am going to use a small pressure tank then I have to have a ball valve linked to the Throttle body in order to get it to work... and if that's the case then Normal outside air can be let in through the air-cleaner like normal...
so I'll revise the drawing and see what it looks like.
...
Thank you for the INPUT !
...
Bob....

[Bob]

OK same drawing with a few changes...
 Planning now on normal intake setup (not blocked off)
feed of HHO to just in front of throttle body... that FEED is controled by a 1/2"~3/4" brass ball valve straight from the bubblers...
that ball valve will have to be linked to the throttle linkage to act as the accelerator... opening as the throttle valve opens... this means it will have to be adjustable in order to get the correct air/HHO mix as the throttle opens i.e. 1/4 throttle may mean 1/8 opening on the ball valve, 1/2 throttle may mean 3/4 open on the ball valve... no way to tell without testing but it is a certainty that adjustment will be needed.
....
starting on gasoline with the HHO system all off... once running turning on the HHO
soon as the pressure starts coming up turn off the gasoline by a toggle switch connected to an electric on off valve on the injector gas feed.
then your running on HHO and should run like normal operation.
it would be wise to turn back on the gasoline before shutting down the HHO to purge the system
and make it runnable on gasoline again for the next start... then kill it
...
here's the pic.
..
Bob.....

[Bob]

Steve:
 We tried that idea before and it didn't produce the HHO like it should have.
probably because of the limited amps I could give it at the time...
 I had a single container with 3 "Randy cells" in it.
I gave it 40 amps  but it needed 60 amps... the reason I could not give it any more was because I could not get any more Amperage out of the Electrolyte... it topped out at about 42amps at saturation...
so I ran 2 cells and only got about 3 3/4LPM  not 4 .... and to be honnest I do not know why there was a drop in the output.... there shouldn't have been it should have given me 4LPM but I never got that
(at least I don't think I did)
 Randy had 6 cells in a single container at one time if I remember correctly....
however his output was something like 4LPM was all as well ( he was limited by Amperage he had to pull at the time too)
....
 weather 4 cells in a single container will give you 8LPM output is the question here ...and I can say from experience that you cannot pull enough amps through the electrolyte to get that much production you would need to pull 80 amps ...and even KOH won't do that !
that is why I have gone to single cells in single containers....
although you can probably get 40 amps ok (2 cells) and that would cut the need of containers by half
I have decided that rather than risk lower production, I'll go with the more containers ! LOL
hehehehehe
....
great idea... and it looks like it would work... we tried it even.... but the electrolyte is the downfall of that plan...
...
Bob......
(great mod on the drawing too by the way ! <GRIN>)


...

[Bob]

 I have been wondering if I should just make the 2" Randy cells instead of making them all out of 3" washers ?
 the 2" ones work but I have not built one using the new stacking method and I don't know if that new stacking method will change the output of the cell or not....
...
 Randy can you shed some light on that for me ?
is it worth making them from 3" washers ?
is there any real benefit other than fewer washers needed ?
...
Bob..........

[randy]

I'm sure the new stacking method would work with 2" washers, it may throw off the tuning though, might need to add a washer or two, You'd want to measure from the edge of the 1/2" hole to the edge of the washer and drill dead center of that area, the 5/8" hole on one side is only leaving 1/16" of metal on the close spots, that's not much.

[Bob]

ok thank you Randy !
...
 I just came back from town and spent $115.00 at the hardware store for container parts !
I changed my container design to suit the parts that were available... and make the fewest parts necessary.... I got ...
1-4"x5'ABS pipe for $15.27
5-4" test plugs (pop off caps) for $32.90 (it was far cheaper to go with these than the reducer fitting
     2" test caps and 2"ABS pipe to fit the fitting so the pop off caps fit.)
5-1/4"x1/4" Nilon barb hose fitting 90deg $6.90
5-4" ABS caps $41.85
1 4oz. ABS Cement black $3.38
1-2"x2' ABS pipe (for a bubbler) $3.89
 I went to 2 places Home depot which didn't have hardly any thing I needed so I left and went to Lowes and got it all there (at a higher price)
...total cost of $104.19 without tax of about $9.50
...
anyway that is About 1/2 the containers I need.... 5 of the 10 needed
 if I do what Steve was saying and put 2 cells per container  even at the worst senerio I shouldn't need any more containers than 10 of them !
but considering heat build up and Electrolyte having to be Maxed I think it might be better to go more containers...
... However considering the HEAT problem that may or may Not rear its ugly head...
if I have to have a recirculation tank for the electrolyte to keep things cool then I just as well run 2 cells per container anyway.... 1 cell per container Should not over heat at 20 amps...and that the plan at the moment but 2 cells probably would over heat on a long run
so I just as well figure a recirculation tank if I go 2 cells for 1 container...
but it adds allot more complexity, more parts and expense and all that.
....and I haven't bought the WASHERS YET !!!! YEOUCH!  heheheheh
...
Anyway... the containers will consist of a 12" chunk of 4" ABS pipe, a 4" Pop off cap, and a 1/4" 90deg hose fitting... purdy darn simple LOL ....only one part to glue on , and thats the cap on the bottom. 
 I'm guessing but that size of pipe will hold about 3/4 of a gallon of water at the running level (about 2" below the pop off cap, the hose fitting will be right at the bottom of the Pop off cap on the inside, so 2" below that will be the water level technically.)
... I don't like the containers being only 12" long, So,  I may make them 18" instead, they'll hold allot more Water that way. but I'll have to buy more 4" pipe ! LOL
...
of corse all this hinges upon the big 4" Pop off cap sealing up air tight ! if they don't I wasted about 40 bucks !  (Whimper!)
 I was thinking that the 4" pop off caps might split the end of the pipe so I may put a 4" hose clamp at the top to strap the container down with as well as support the plastic up there a bit.
...
 I want to make it real easy to take a single cell off... like a 7/16" end wrench for the electrical hookups, pull off the barb hose fitting , un clamp the top and pull off the cell
...this will be really important so I can pull off a cell that's giving me trouble and swap in another one just like it in good shape.   having 3 extra cells will allow me to ROTATE the cells through out the year and always have a good clean set up running
... I don't want to have to take the whole rack of cells out to work on one cell.
 a 2"x6" plank with "L" brackets screwed to it one for each cell will be bolted to the bed of the truck....
if need be I can add another Rack of cells and expand the system untill the truck runs on 100% hydroxy gas..... come hell or high water it will run on HHO ONLY ! LOL !
....
Bob.....

[randy]

hey Bob, I believe it was Brad that was working on running a small engine on hho, he got 2" washers with a 1/4" hole really cheap online, if you go back through his posts you might find his source, the new build would work great with those washers, I'd look for it for ya but gotta go to work.

[Bob]

Ahhh ...good idea on that Randy ! thanks !
I'll take a look see if'in I can find it ! <grin>
...I understand the problem with the large hole and the washer having a 1/2" hole in the center... sure don't leave much meat left to hold it together!...
with only a 1/4" hole in the center it would have allot more room on each side....
...I suppose a person could reduce the size of the bolt and nuts going through it by using 1/8" all thread in stainless steel but that could be harder to find than hens' teeth! heheheh
....
I'll see if I can find that post by Brad later
... THANK YOU !
Bob...

[H²+O]

I Ordered 2" ss316 with a 1/4" center hole form mcmaster.com
here is the link for the 2" 316 washers http://www.mcmaster.com/#standard-washers/=d2fube

nevermind lol,, guess it just takes you to where you can select the washers,, i really like that site.

[H²+O]

I must have missed something.. What is the NEW stacking method? the old was the MkI Right? (11 plates -+-+-+-+-+-)? what thread is it in?

[Weapon_R]

I must have missed something.. What is the NEW stacking method? the old was the MkI Right? (11 plates -+-+-+-+-+-)? what thread is it in?

http://www.hydroxyhut.com/index.php/topic,21.0.html

[randy]

Yeah my latest build is here;
http://www.hydroxyhut.com/index.php/topic,457.0.html
plate spacing ends up around .045" but works well with the 4" washers.

[Weapon_R]

Bob I think 20 Lpm is over kill. But I could be wrong. I don't see any reason to run vehicle over 3000 rpm for regular driving.
May I suggest a switch to turn gas on and off so gas is used only when required. You could then build unit using less parts and add if its required.

[Bob]

I hope your Right on that !
 earlier (years ago) I calculated how much I needed to reach 3000RPM on my truck and I came up with 12 to 15LPM was all... so as much as 20LPM should peg the RPM guage... if I want to ...hehehe
  But I am mostly guessing and I admit that, so having a bit of play room wouldn't hurt at all!
...
 I cut my 4" ABS pipe into 12" long sections, got 5 blanks for containers...then I had to go to town.
...still haven't filled up the pickup to see what I'm getting as far as MPG goes, I'll probably do that next trip in though.
...

 if I had say a 5gal pressure tank (or its equivelant) as a HHO gas Holding tank I should be able to get away with far fewer cells.... I agree completely with that Idea Weapon-R...in fact i may only need just the 5 I am in the process of making now... sense I am going to have to make a holding tank anyway... i just as well make it a larger one and just plan on using the "regulated pressure" method
for the volume needed.
....
 the more I think on that idea the more i like it.... its far cheaper ! LOL
.. although I doubt 5 cells will be enough ... but I may only need to add a few more and 5 cells may well get me into the 100% testing stage... the 100% testing stage will be the interesting part...I can't wait to get to that ! LOL
...
Bob.......

[Bob]

Years ago I designed a "Pressure Regulated" idea for using Hydroxy gas...
I tested the Holding tank idea and it did indeed work...  I had it switch on at 7psi or less and turn off at 11psi.... which was as low as I could get the Water pump pressure switch to work at.
... it worked automatically flawlessly.... turned on and off like it was supposed to and held 11psi
for as long as I wanted.
  ...I tested my torch on that system and it worked real good, once I got the hole small enough on the torch! HEHEHEHEH   I only had a 1" long flame and it would almost go out before the generator kicked back on .... but it did keep it lit...
 I wasn't sure what to expect from HHO burning so I had a flame lit and setting there that I just passed the torch tip through and it lit the torch with no BOOM ! hehehehe by then I was getting a bit jumpy with the HHO and FLAMES !  it does indeed go BOOM in a big way! HAHAHAHAH
...
 a bigger system than what I had is all I should need to run a vehicle.... but you will have to have a valve on the HHO gas line to regulate the HHO into the engine... I figured a Ball valve hooked to the throttle linkage of the throttle body should do the trick...
for idle.... a tiny needle valve from a  "T" in the line just before the ball valve  should give all the gas you need for idle control while the ball valve is closed....
 having an electric on off valve for the HHO gas line to shut off ALL gas period would be a great idea
as well.... if the engine quits and won't start you don't want the idle needle valve to fill the whole system with HHO.
...
now if I can find a White fiberglass "bed cover" for the bed of my pickup  I'll be able to keep it under lock and key as well ! hehehehehehhe.... better have some vent holes though ! HAHAHA!
...
Bob......

[Bob]

here's a pic of the Cell containers going together...
Bob....

[Bob]

the price for these parts are quite high, even using ABS instead of PVC (because its cheaper and tougher).
 the pop off 4" cap... the biggest I have seen yet anywhere was about $8.00 each and the end caps which should have been around $3.00 bucks was a whopping $7.00 something !  and the 4" ABS pipe that used to be about $15.00 for a 10ft length was over $21.00 so I bought half a piece and they charged me $15.00 for that ...geez ! obviously I would have been better off to buy the 20ft length but I went the more expensive short piece because I didn't have a saw and I didn't want the hassel of tieing it down in my short pickup.......not in 108 degrees ! LOL
...
Now I need cell components.... I'll figure 6 3" washers per cell and I have 5 cells so thats 35 washers
to be on the safe side I'll get 40 washers.... that's going to hurt !
I'll buy S.S. Threaded rod if it looks cheaper than bolts but I doubt it will.
I think its easier to just order everything on line and have them delever it to me than hunt for the parts in town... but we'll see how much that costs first ! LOL
...
Bob....

[Bob]

I took the pop off caps off in the last pic above and then filled the containers with water and let them set for a few hours.... I couldn't see any sign of leaking so I guess the end caps are on good enough <GRIN>
... I'm hobbling around like an old man because I fell off the bus slid off the hood and landed on my side on the ground , just missing a concrete Dragon with my back , but did hit it with my arm and leg...
I have a lump on my leg about the size of a baseball that is really sore... and my ribs hurt every time I breath! LOL  No broken bones though and I think that was quite lucky, a bit more velosity and I'ed have landed on my back on that concrete statue and that would have been painful... ok,ok I told the wife, next tile I will go get the ladder ! HAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH
only got a few scratches on my arm out of it  but I have a "Charley-horse" on my left leg just above the knee that really Smarts !  so I'm taking the rest of the day off... but trying to "Work" that leg or it will be so stiff in the morning I won't be able to move hehehhe
 I fell about shoulder high to the ground in a sprawled out position because I tried to hop from the roof of the bus to the hood... a good 4 feet and no hand holds anywhere.... and my feet slipped on the oxidized paint... and down I went bounced off the hood  and plopped to the ground like a wet rag
....  I could'a thought of a thousand things other to do than that ! HAHAHHAH
...
anyway.... I've been thinking sense I have probably 100 wall switch plate covers I really SHOULD try and get 2LPM out of one of those cells.... I may just put the Washers on hold a bit while I "try ,try again" to make a wall switch plate cover cell WORK again!
... I might try to make a Series cell out of the WSPC plates...after all I know the Smack booster uses them and it employs a duel neutral plate design... it barely fit in the 4" ABS pipe
but perhaps I can make a simple easy to make cell that puts out ok with them...
parallel is the way to go if I can do it .... we shall see I guess
...
....
Bob............

[randy]

Ouch!!, I busted my azz a while back, knee is just now getting back to normal, I need to go out and find them wall switch covers I have, I just know there's a way to stack them puppies parallel. getting the boat ready for a night trip tonight, wife and dog are going too, got a craving for some smoked steelhead so I guess I'll go shopping on the river for em. Summer's finally here.

[Manta]

Bob,

Fell off the hood !!  No wonder the younger generation call us old foggies.

Randy,

Sounds good to me.  Nearest I'll get is a trip down to the fish and chip shop.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

HAHAH Yah it takes tallent what can I say ! hehehehhe
 a bit less sore now so that tells me in a day or 2 I'll be back to normal
....
I wish ya Luck Randy !  keep that pup on a leash cuz if she/he falls in you'll never find her at night !
.... and Doggies need life vests too !  a mile is a long way to swim for a "couch-potato Dog!"
.... man a Nice Steel head fillet sure do sound good !....
 I took the wife out to Red lobster for her Birthday(56) a day or so ago... and we finished up the left overs last night... made fish sandwitches out of it from Sole fillets ...Man that was GOOD!
...
yah Randy we need a cell made from WSPC(wall Switch Plate Covers) their cheaper than Washers and have allot of area in them
... in all honesty I think my last attempt should have worked better but the plate gap was quite wide
I THINK.... if the plate gap was set at 1/16" to 1/8" MAX... it'd work good. not sure on that though
...and I didn't take the time to Tune the cell... so I really never completed it ... the cells not done unless its "TUNED" lol.
...
Any hoo... Best of luck on the fish'in trip...... don't forget the drain plugs! LOL
...
Bob......


 

[Bob]

OK I took the WSPC cell out of its container I had it in... tore it down... and re assembled it differently... using Randys stacking method...er well sorta no "O" rings in this thing....
I put the VTOM on it and it passed with flying colors... but the plate spacing was fairly ragged...
...still is in places, but its CLOSE to being uniform....
sense it was so ragged I decided to add Zip-ties in between each plate to even them out... that worked out fairly well....
 I haven't tested the cell yet for output but sense the plate gap is about 1/16" instead of the 1/4" it used to be it should produce a great deal better than it did before (only 1/4LPM)
....
 here's a pic of the finished cell
... 7 plates parallel hookup...
...
wall switch plate dim.
width=2 3/4"
height=4 1/2"
hole#1= 1/4"
Hole #2= 5/8"
Aprox area of holes per plate .5sqr in.
...
Area of plate
2.75X4.5=12.375sqr in. each plate
12.375-.5(holes)=11.875
x 7 plates=83.125sqr in. for the cell.
....
.35APSI=29.09 amps
83.125X.035=2.9LPM.....
so almost 3LPM for 30 amps.... a 10:1 ratio which is good enough for me!
....
THAT'S CALCULATED OUTPUT Only...
I have not tested the cell as of yet... last try with 1/4" spacing I only got 1/4LPM! quite a let down!....
The proof is in the testing ! <GRIN>
...
Bob.....

[Bob]

So ...Randy !
 did ya catch anything ?
...( tell us about your Fishin' trip!)
Bob.....

[Bob]

I discovered something interesting that worked...oddly enough....assembling this cell
I simply anchored one Stainless steel all thread to one 1/4" hole via Nut, washer,Plate,washer,Half-Nut.
on one side and the other side I had Nut washer,insulator,Half-nut,insulator,plate (which pushes down the insulator...covering the nut and insulating the plate all the way around it,insulator, washer,half nut.
and then continued to stack the rest of the plates like that in an alternating fashion.
 because I use the insulators I had made up previously, 1/4" hole in a 1"~1-1/8"diam.circle of the 4 pocket nylon  folder, it crushed well around the nut centering the plate hole and keeping the plate from touching the nut, then I added another insulator to keep the washer above it from contacting the plate and then the half-nut to hold it all down and lock the next washer/plate/washer/half-nut for the grounded side ....
 it worked great... although the plate separation was fairly ragged and not very uniform... but after inserting the zip ties between the plates everything started lining up real good.
... but no "O"ring or gas line or tube is needed this way around the nut on the insulated side because the plate just pushes the nylon disk around the nut... the nut pushes the nylon up through the hole of the plate and does the trick of centering the plate and keeping it from hitting the nut.
...kind'a strange but it does work ... and the cell passed the continuity test !
...
Bob....

[randy]

fishing was a bust, after sitting there for a couple hours shivering "wife and dog were snoozing in a sleeping bag" I went to reel up and check my gear and found I was hung up, there's a tree in the new spot on the bottom I found out, took my favorite lure and diver from me Waaah!!!, windy choppy COLD, so I bagged it and went home early. Shoulda fished where I always do I guess.

[Bob]

Ack ! well better you than me on that Randy ! HEHEHEHEHE
maybe next time you'll land a big'en !
....
...
I just came in from testing that cell....
Oddly enough it puts out exactly the same as it did before I changed it !....even tough the plate spacing is now much closer.... it still only puts out 1/4LPM at 20 amps !....1/2LPM at 45 amps
....so not very good at all !
I have enough room on the all-thread to add several plates more so I just might do that and see if that changes the output for the better....
 again that is using my big battery charger on the 40 amp setting ...straight from the charger to the cell, no battery in line... and I have a feeling that is part of the low output problem.
.... but so far that cell is a NO-GO.... because the output is far to low to bother with...
a Randy cell MK1 will make 2LPM at 20 amps .... that is 8 times better than this cell
...
....I am really curious as to WHY that is.... but I have no answers.... anyone care to guess?
...
Bob.......

[randy]

Looking at the pic it seems the spacing is kind of random I've had a couple cells with spacing like that, didn't work well until I corrected the spacing, it really matters from what I've experienced. I had a dented washer on one of my cells, didn't think much of it and used the washer anyway, fought with it for days, finally dismantled the cell and removed that washer, put a good one in it and it worked fine. ya just never know with these things, the big problem I remember with switchplates is that they don't nest flush, if they did their wouldn't be any problem using them. I actually cut some 1/4" steel rectangles that fit the shape of the flat area so I could bolt a switchplate in there and gring the angled edges off without distorting the flat surface, after grinding one edge off I figured it would take the better part of a day to do them all and gave up quickly, probably would have gone through a grinder wheel also.

[Bob]

Humm  I know what your saying is correct...in fact its CRITICAL other wise you get electron pooling
heating due to the resistance caused by the pooling. more output in the close gaps than in the wider gaps areas.... but over all dramatic drop in output ?  ....i suppose its possable ...but looks like its close enough to me ! LOL
...
I'm going to haul down the truck battery and put it on hte charger ,charge it up and then test that cell again... see if that makes any diference..... I bet it does... I have a feeling it has something to do with the DUTY CYCLE of the charger its supposed to be charging the battery with 12vDC but I bet it is not fully rectified voltage so what I have is a Pulsing DC...that might be the Main problem...
it may be Steves problem as well... unfortionately I have no knowledge on how to test it or fix it....
and I am guessing with a big battery in like it would smoothe out the pulses (fill in the gaps)
... that may well be all it takes!
 I ran a few Randy cells on a 30 amp charger and a battery but their peek output was very hard to figure out because output would slowly fall off as the battery lost its charge!
....
gott'a think on this one.... that cell should not be producing so poorly...
...
Bob....

[crb]

Bob, what e-lyte are you using?
Sounds like you have my problems. haha
crb

[Bob]

Exactly what I was thinking CRB ! ...I am using cheepo Koolaid 8c a packet...I put 6 of them in the container and got the amp draw up to about 44amps to 45amps max...
when I diluted the mix with the garden hose and got it down to 20~21 amps for a good test on the output
the output looked quite pathetic.... maybe this cell needs way more amperage in order to work ?
maybe 80 amps is what it needs.... doubt I can get it there though with Koolaid !
....
hehehehe
...
Bob......

[crb]

Bob, does your kool-ade have any sodium (salt) in it?
My kool-aid brand kool-aid has 10mg sodium, you might
try adding a little salt and see what that does.
crb

[Bob]

OOOOH ICK ! No salt CRB! Salt turns into green goo almost immediately....
I have tried just salt alone as an electrolyte and it works fantastic as far as making continuity in the water goes.... you can really get the amps up with salt... however when I tried that I had at least 2" of green goo on the surface of the water in a 5 gal bucket too.... that is a HUGE bunch of green GOO
 I ran Koolaid brand Koolaid before and never noticed any goo at all so the small amount may be ok in this case....
 salt is used to increase continuity... and I don't need that as I can draw the needed 20 amps with ease... it probably only took 2 packets but I kept adding all 6 to get as much production as I could and production was still down 1/2LPM at 45amps.... so I can almost be positive about the electrolyte...as long as it allows me to draw the proper amount of amps the electrolyte has done its job.... it serves no other purpose but to increase the continuity of the water... the Amperage does the production part.... although that amperage must be distributed to the plates evenly.... that too is a fairly sure bet....
.... If I was having trouble reaching 20 amps with this cheepo Koolaid stuff I'd just go buy the Koolaid brand.... but I'm not <grin>  I think a Dash of salt into the cell would do more harm than good.... sodium will (if left in the cell for a long time) coat the plates and block the water from reaching the metal...AND make copious amounts of green goo.... messy and nasty stuff if you have green goo in your cell, flush it out and clean it real good and start over because it will harm production.
... my cell seams to be running fine, it is putting out some heat as the water/Koolaid mix was warm
after about a 45 min run just before the LPM test....
...
   However, that being said I cannot figure out why production is so darn LOW.... according to ALL I KNOW it should not be..... yet it is !
... I'll try my battery in line this evening after I charge it all day and see what that does for production.... if it comes up that tells me a BUNCH !
....
Bob..........

[randy]

if you hook jumper cables from your running truck you'll get what you would with it in the truck, no doubts about amps or battery power that way, I started doing it that way when I discovered I couldn't adjust the cell with a heavy amp charger, when I put it in the truck it pulled way more amps then it did with the charger??. Like you said Bob, I don't think were getting a totally rectified supply from a charger, if hooked to a oscilloscope were probably getting a sine wave signal, though I don't have a oscilloscope. jumper cables will give you what you need.

[Bob]

GOOD POINT Randy !
....I'll give the charger & Battery a shot and see what I get... then I might move it over to the truck and see what I get with the truck running....
  My Truck wouldn't start this morning ! it just clicked the sylinoid !   I had it on the charger for 4 hrs today though and when I first started it it took 10 amps and then quickly started falling... I think its the cables.... looking a bit fuzzy LOL I'll put some battery stuff on them after I clean them up.... didn't do that last time.... I SEE hehehehhehe
anyway I should run the truck for a bit but it will take away from my MPG reading... can't be helped though ! HA!
....
 I was SMART though ...I'll have you know.... I disconnected the pos cable to the battery before I put the charger on it.... don't wann'a fry anything in that truck !  LOL
...doing that is a MUST on Motorcycles any more... never charge a battery on a bike with a big charger
unless you take off the pos cable or you will fry the Voltage Regulator.... did that 3 times on my 1100cc honda before I found out what was causing it ! ...chincie darn things! hehehehe
the motorcycle manuals now say remove the battery from the bike to charge it....on my bikes when I was going to school that was never a problem.... tiz now though !  that's progress for ya!
....
 I spent the afternoon ripping apart the wall of the trailer , going to make a pass-through into the living room instead of a small door... going to build a box around the door to make a pantry ... and when I'm done with that.......  HAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA     I got more Honey-doo's lined up than I can stand ! HEHEHEHEHE
...
Bob....

[Bob]

Ok just for the Record....
I charged up the old truck battery
connected the charger to it
connected my heavy jumper cables to the battery and cell
and did a LPM test...
the results were 1/2LPM at 20 amps
...
where before I got 1/4 LPM at 20 amps....
so it effectively doubled the output!
....
however... I continued to let it run for another minute or so and did the test again and noticed
a definite drop in LPM output (i.e. the battery was getting weaker)
this is to be expected as the way I figure it hooking the cell directly to the battery is like hooking a large Hose to a fire hydrant..... and opening the valve all the way
where as hooking the cell to the charger is (although it says the same amperage is being used )is like having that fire hydrant turn on and off 50% of the time.... the VOLUME you can get from the battery is much more than the Volume you can get from the Charger... EVEN though the meters say its the same amount .... it obviously is not !
....
so for "SHORT tests" a battery in line with a sizable charger should work but it will only work for a short period of time because the battery cannot hold that much volume
...
so my cell is producing 1/2LPM at 20 amps.... for all intents and purposes... I didn't hook it to the truck ,..... I might do that tomorrow though
so Now I am wondering if "tuning the cell to the AMPS" will bring up the LPM...
....personally I seriously doubt that it will come up to a 10:1 ratio because it just has too far to go..... but it is a possibility that it could... so... I should add 2 plates to the cell and test it again and see how much that changes the output !
....
Bob....
 

[randy]

Bob; I think you need to go the other way, remove a plate and see if it comes up any.

[Bob]

lol same thing I was thinking after that post.... thanks fir da help Randy!
.... I'll remove 1 and see what that does.
...
Bob.......

[Bob]

A bit of clarification here...
I used the timer on the charger turned the charger on and let it ALONE run the Hydroxy cell in order to warm it up... it ran for over an hour... Amp draw started out at near 15 amps and wound up at 20~21amps warm.... when I plugged in the battery AND charger to the cell and turned it all on I was surprised to see the amp draw jump up to just under 25 amps....i figure the extra amperage was going back into the battery <grin>
....
with a good solid 1/2LPM at 20amps reading ( just because I did the test about a dozen times)
I have a good place to start from now...
later today I hope to pull a plate off that cell and re test it.
...
Bob...........

[Manta]

Bob,

...the VOLUME you can get from the battery is much more than the Volume you can get from the Charger...

You can work out the volume (in Coulombs) as 1 Coulomb = 1Watt per second.

So a cell pulling 20 Amp for 1 second at 13 Volt across the terminals will use

 20 x 13 = 260 Coulombs

Or 15,600 per minute.  936,000 per hour.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Kool thanks Manta....
 now Why don't they tell ya in the chargers manual How many Coulombs it puts out ?  LOL
...
Bob......

[Manta]

Probably for the same reason they don't put it on your electricity bill. Because only nerds like us ever wonder about those things.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

LOL !
 SO TRUE !
...
Bob...
hehehehehhe

[Bob]

Ok something interesting however not very good!
 You all know I've been bragging about my little pickup getting 40MPG...
well after putting the Hydroxy cell in the truck and replacing the "Matt-Valve's" Valve...
I have been waiting to get a good accurate MPG reading from it...
 I put on 246 miles on the truck and it took 9.4 gal to fill it. that makes 26.17 MPG...
Way WAY Down from what I WAS getting....yet the truck seams to be running really good!
...
 I'm fairly certain that there is some solenoid/ electric-valve DO-Hicky under the Hood that is bad... but I've never got any engine warning flashes or stuff like that...
but the truck DID have a tendency to Surge on Idle.... it just all of a sudden started doing that ... so I figured one of those "Thingies" under the hood was sticking.
but after adding the Hydroxy cell and replacing the "Matt Valve" it hasn't done the Surging at Idle thing . but Obviously its still messed up because of the huge drop in MPG
... one indication is that When I first put on the "Matt Valve" I could open the valve all the way and the truck would barely run... it was running so lean... missing real bad irritiac idle and so on... but Now, when I open the Matt valve the idle just increases.
.... so something is Amiss under the hood but I have no idea what component it is!
and the only way I know of finding it is to start replacing each one of those valve/solenoids , until it runs better... you know ..."the Proccess of elimination"
and that could take hundreds of dollars before I finally stumble upon the right one!
...
 there's gott'a be a way to tell what component is bad short of taking it to a shop and having them put it on their $30,000 dollar machine...but I am at a loss as to what it might be!
....
 Does anyone have any bright ideas on how or what I might do to find which thingie is bad under the hood of my truck ? .... if it was a 1972 ford  I could fix it with no problem
but this silly thing has more hoses and wires than a Hardware store under the hood!
...
maybe I could disconnect the components one at a time and see if it changes the running,
but I doubt it because half those things only work at certain times while driving down the road.
...
 Right now the truck is running real good...better than usual in fact ( the Hydroxy cell really helps)... the idle is a bit fast and the Idle /air-screw on the intake manifold just before the throttle body has no effect at all .... it used to but does not now...
...
 I am certain all the vacuum lines are on and no air leaks  anywhere that I know of.

 ConfoundedHighteckpieceofexcrament.... !
hehehehehe
...
any help you can throw at me is much appreciated !
...
Bob......

[Weapon_R]

Bob does you truck have a map sensor?

[crb]

Bob, Do you have a handheld vacuum pump? Give your egr valve a test.
crb

[Bob]

ummm not sure on the MAP sensor at all....
and no I don't have a hand held vacuum pump but I can pull the EGR valve and clean it up and make sure its working good !...
...
thanks guys for the help ... I need all the help I can get on these new fanged contraptions !
HAHAHAHAHA
Bob....

[H²+O]

that S-10 was having a problem with the egr.. so i took it off and sprayed it with wd40 and it started working, BUT then after a minute It started opening ALL the way!! NOT GOOD! so to fix the problem i had to rob the erg off my bro's fiero the day before he sold it!! lol

but to test the problem, if i took off the vacuum line to the ERG then it would run normal (maybe a little rich but i couldn't tell, but with it wide open it was running too lean and letting in way too much exhaust making it run terrible.)

steve

[Bob]

Thank you !
... I believe everything under the hood is lubed with WD-40 fairly well ! <GRIN>
but as you know the EGR valve gets very hot and will burn off the WD-40 rather fast...
before I use the truck again I will make it a point to lube the EGR valve again and make sure it Moves... you can see the rod in there that moves the butterfly and press it and it moves... or it should... shortly after I got it the EGR valve got stuck in the winter I just doused it good with WD-40 and worked it back and forth to free it up... been working fine sense... but more than likely  that's the culprit....I for got all about that silly thing ! ...
all those vacuum lines put me off when I open the hood ! its plane scary! LOL ! My wife's car is worse
and I have had it's head off 3 or 4 times.... its a nightmare to get them all back in the right place
...but I have never had the truck engine apart.... 300k plus miles and still going strong.
....
I'ed dearly Love to put an older R-22 engine in there that is carberated and not F.I. but California Smog people wouldn't let me liscnses it if I did ! ... I get so sick and tired of people trying to Help you weather you need it or not! LOL...so they make more laws on top of laws and make us all miserable!  LOL
...
perhaps that EGR valve is sticking again.... we shall see !  thanks for the tip ! I forgot all about that thing!
...
Bob.......


 

[Bob]

Recently I have been giving allot of thought to handling the heat on all these cells I plan on running in my truck, Originally I was thinking of a 5gal Propane bottle, fitted with a Pop off cap for gas collection and as a recirculation tank for the electrolyte. but this may just result in a 5 gal jug of boiling electrolyte if there is no cooling going on...
 Fins or large washers welded around the tank would provide a great deal of air cooling, 100 washers welded to the tank would make it bristle with cooling fins, but even that may not be enough
if not then a radiator is going to have to be employed...perhaps one from an old refrigerator or freezer unit would do the trick
...
back to working on the house !
...
Bob....

[Weapon_R]

Best to try a transmission oil cooling kit or small ac radiator. If there is sufficient space a used radiator from a small vehicle would be perfect. This could be had for very little money from a junk yard.

[Manta]

Aren't these usualy made of aluminium these days?  Not the best material to have around electrolyte.

Dave
(Manta)

[Weapon_R]

Aren't these usualy made of aluminium these days?  Not the best material to have around electrolyte.

Dave
(Manta)

Did not know about the aluminum.

[Bob]

Yup,Yup 99% of the trans coolers are aluminum now days...
and if I were running KOH it would dissolve that in a second or two...<grin>
however I'm running lemon aid.... strong lemon aid I'll grant ya but still just lemon aid...
I have 2 or 3 old heater cores out of some older vehicles here, copper and all that they may work
for a time.... dunno how the copper would effect the lemon aid or the cleanliness of the system but it probably would really mess it up bad !... so I'll probably just stick with cooling fins on the 5gal propane bottle....once I get a hole cut into it for the pop off lid !
....
 Last hole I cut in a propane tank was done by filling the tank completely full of water and drilling a zillion 1/8" holes in the form of a circle.... it took for ever and I figure there has to be a better way!...
 a Hole saw would be nice if it would cut through the steel, but i don't know of a hole saw that would do that .... any ideas ?
...perhaps a diamond dust covered hole saw for cutting massonary ?... a 4" one would set me back a goodly chunk of change but i think it might be worth it... has anyone tried to cut metal holes with one of those
...
Bob......

[Weapon_R]

Regarding the cell running hot. Best option may be to go with the 4 inch washer design.

[randy]

I honestly don't think it's the 4" washers keeping the heat down, but the amp limiter, without the limiter the cell did get hot.

[Bob]

Hay Randy... doesn't it seem odd to you that even though the amp limiter holds the amp draw at
21 amps and you get no real heat build up, but without the limiter and at 20~22amps it does get hot?
how do you account for that ?
the higher concentration of electrolyte or perhaps without the limiter the cell is drawing far more than the meters say ?.... like maybe its that duty cycle thing again ?
....
Bob.....

[randy]

I think it has to do with the voltage drop, the cell reads 6 volts and the limiter reads 6 volts, the amps read the same everywhere. the cell doesn't get hot but them bulbs sure do.

[Manta]

...the cell reads 6 volts and the limiter reads 6 volts,...

This was what I was trying to get at with my enquiries.

6 Volt at 21 Amp is only 126 Watt.

12 volt at 21 Amp is 252  Watt.

It all seems to come back to the voltage across an ideal cell being around 2 volt.

What we need to know now is ,  what is the gas output (Litre per Minute) for 126 watt and for 252 watt. ?

Dave
(Manta)

[Weapon_R]

I agree with manta. I would love to know the output.

[Bob]

Yah ! ME too !
in THEORY the voltage above 2v does not aide at all in Hydroxy gas production....this is a perfect chance to check that !
... they say that anything above 1.25vdc in a cell goes to making heat... they were also talking about series cells and the voltage between the plates , but the truth should be the same weather its a parallel cell or a series cell....
...
Randy can you put your jumper cables around the Amp limiter and do a few tests for us ?
you wouldn't even have to disconnect it, just put a jumper around it
.... If I remember correctly you already did that though , a LPM test before the limiter and one with the limiter and there was only a slight drop with it in-line.... but how much is a slight drop?
...
...
  Yes Manta ... it took a while but you finally got the voltage reading you wanted uh ! LOL
I didn't understand that you were looking for a voltage drop.... you have to be in line for that don't you ?...or just to ground anywhere?
  but yes ... that stands to reason that there would be 6vdc between the cell and the Limiter, and 6vdc between the limiter and ground... because their in series and the voltage is divided equally between the two units... 12vdc total... probably 14vdc with the truck running.

...
if the LPM readings are close enough to being the same then dropping them to 3 vdc is probably even better as far as heat is concerned.... hummmmm
....
seams to me you could even play with the Amps portion of it with the voltage dropped real low
run the Electrolyte to max saturation and let it pull as much as it can say 45~50amps...at 3 vdc
your total wattage would be lower than if you were running 12vdc
....
this opens up some new ground to me  as I previously thought only series cells could benifit from lower voltage.... this may not be the case at all and we can get more LPM per Watt than we could before because of the heat restrictions ! .... HUMMMMM !  Interesting!
...
Bob.........

[randy]

In order to test without I'd have to change out the 30 amp breaker and relay, tried to do a lpm test after setting the thing up with the amp limiter, but it pops the breaker too quickly for a test, what I'd have to do is dump the electrolyte and refill with mixture to pull 20 amps.

[Bob]

OK now you guys got me wondering about building a purpose made voltage dropper.... with no limit to the amperage...or at the very least real high amperage capabilities. (like 75amps perhaps)
 
....
 if units in series divides the voltage ,then 3 units would get the cell down to 3v each 2 for 6v etc.etc.
 the Amperage in a series circuit is the sum of the amperage of the units divided by the number of the units .... I THINK...
 if this is true then the units used in my Voltage Dropper will have to be very high amperage capabilities...

A1+A2+A3/3
20+20+20=60/3=20
...
 I'm thinking  cell=20amps, current limiter1=20amps, current limiter2=20amps,...
 3 units =3vdc (from 12vdc)
 the cell would see 20amps max.
...(if I wanted higher amperage capabilities I would have to raise the amps in the 3 units)

 Manta does this look right to you ?.... I'm just going by instincts here and am probably way off !
.hehehehehhe
...
Bob.......

[Bob]

Ahh ok gotcha Randy !  that's a problem !
...
Bob.......

[randy]

Been using what little free time I have to catch fish lately, been doing pretty good, pulling the boat let me know I had my fuel leaned out a bit too much, took a couple miles to get up to 55 mph, bout a quarter turn out on the jet cured it though lol. soon as I get time I'm going to build an amp limiter for 40 amps and build a cell with those 2" washers to use it with, I plan on mounting a second alternator and wire directly to the cell with no battery and see what happens, I don't see why it wouldn't work, other then the output may be low at idle and rise with the rpms, but then the alternator may release that magic smoke also hahahahaha

[Weapon_R]

Previously I stated that I will be building a cell with no neutrals. One of the tests I intend to perform is to use a 2 volt power supply on each plate.
I do not believe voltage has anything to do with heat build up. Meaning if current was controlled at any voltage we would have no heat.
I will be needing a pwm to accurately test this. Saves having to mess with electrolyte. A pwm works by controlling the delivered voltage
hence it should be possible to take voltage measurements on the output end of the pwm to arrive at the desired voltage.

[Bob]

Well I have had periods of high heat in my cells that has done damage (melting those expensive pop off caps).... but no other damage that I know of... more than likely I am burning up a large amount of water vapor when its that hot (boiling point)... but my experience has shown me that I can have water vapor in the engine all the time and it does no damage at all , Water droplets on the other hand are like gains of sand and do hurt the engine! but the vapor simply flashes to steam and is gone out the tail pipe.
...so keeping the heat down would help me allot so I am seriously wondering if I can reduce the heat output of the cell by dropping the voltage through a current limiter... as Randy has done
... the current limiter seams to provide 2 functions
1. dropping the voltage because it is in series with the load
2. limiting the current that can pass through the cell
... Both of these things are great things to have!
the Dropping of the Voltage lowered the heat generated by the cell...
(or its simply the drop of over all power available to the cell that reduces the heat)
the Limiting of the current helps in 2 ways allows you to run a more concentrated mix of electrolyte
therefor reducing the resistance in the water and increasing its continuity which allows more amps to be ran... i.e. its easier for the cell to produce its gas.
 the second good part of the current limiter is at cold start ups you will have a regulated amount of current going through the cell at all times... no thermal run away on hot days either...this alone is worth the current limiter!
....
 the question remains however, weather the cell is still producing as much HHO as it was before all this extra stuff was added to it....
  this is an ambiguous question, because your no longer running the cell the way it was ! its better now... less heat, and controlled current...so does it really matter ? probably not!as long as the output of the cell is STILL good ... who cares what it was ?
...
 we know without a doubt that the heat is less in the cell, Randy reports that much, and its obvious that lowering the resistance in the water will give you that result....regardless of weather the voltage drop is responsible for it or not... which in my mind I think has to be , cutting the voltage by 1/2 should reduce the heat by half,because less over all power is being used then.
...
 I suspect that if the over all power is reduced by half the end results will be that of 1/2 reduction in LPM output....   However this may not be the case because of the 1.24 volts used to produce HHO on the plates, if that is all that is needed then the output would remain the same as if there was no voltage drop at all... so in effect you can run your Cell at half power and still get full HHO production.... which SHOULD be attractive to everyone...sense these cells gobble the power in a big way !
....
Bob.......

[Weapon_R]

However this may not be the case because of the 1.24 volts used to produce HHO on the plates, if that is all that is needed then the output would remain the same as if there was no voltage drop at all... so in effect you can run your Cell at half power and still get full HHO production.... which SHOULD be attractive to everyone...sense these cells gobble the power in a big way !
....
Bob.......

Bob if you remember I had asked randy to run his cell at half the power and post results. This was my line of thinking.
Possibly less heat same output or it may show that running two cells at the same total power will yield more or same output with less heat.
Here is a link to that post I made mention of.
http://www.hydroxyhut.com/index.php/topic,450.msg6665.html#msg6665

[Manta]

Bob,

....(if I wanted higher amperage capabilities I would have to raise the amps in the 3 units)..

The current drawn by the limiter is the controling factor.  You can saturate your electrolyte and close the gaps up to give you as much current draw as you want,  but the whole thing won't draw more that the limiter will allow. In fact,  as mentioned,  you can short out the cell with a wire and still you will only get the limiter current. It will behave as if the cell(s) not there.

Look at it this way.

Let's assume that the ideal voltage across a cell (two plate +- or three plate +-+ or -+-) is two volt.  And our supply is twelve volt.  And we want to run 20 Amp.

Set your electrolyte so one cell draws 20 Amp;  noting how much Koolaid you use.  then use the same mix in all the cells. They will all draw 20 Amp each.

If you have six cells all connected in series then you will have two volt dropped across each cell and each cell will be drawing 20 Amp. It has to be as they are all in series and the current must be the same at any point in the chain.
So,  each cell uses 2 x 20 = 40 Watt.  Giving a total of 6 x 40 = 240 Watt.

Once you know what any one of the cells produces in Litre per Minute,  you can just multiply by six to get the total output for the chain.

Just what effect putting the limiter in series with this chain will have I'm not sure,  but I suspect it will just reduce the voltage across each cell by about half a volt. Which should be a good thing.

Note  This is six seperate cells in a series chain all connected pos to neg.  NOT one big cell with two power connection plates and four neutrals.

People seem to accept that you have to run huge current and the full voltage and just ignore the heat problem.  I have never been happy with that approach.  I suspect that the ideal way to go would be to re-jig an alternator to supply 2 Volt.  Then a 200 Watt alternator would be able to give you all the Amps you need.

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

For my latest tests, I have been using 2  1 ohm 300 watt resistors for my current limiter
hooked up in parallel.  Seems to be doing the job. 
I have adjusted to about 23-25 amps.  Bypassed the resistors and to my suprise
the thing pulled 90+ amps with koolade. Boy did the wires get hot quick.  hahahaha
Only about a 1/2 second or less.
Too bad I'm still getting garbage output.
crb

[randy]

are you still using neutral plates in there? I had issues with neutrals and koolaid, when I tried -nnn+nnn- I could visually see there was no production between some of the plates, not sure if it was caused by the koolaid or what.

[Manta]

crb,

Interesting.

So,  you effectively have a 0.5 Ohm 300 Watt resistor passing 24 Amp as your limiter.

That gives us a voltage drop across it of E = I x R = 24 x 0.5 = 12 Volt.  And it dissipates 12 x 24 = 288 Watt.

Good job you have the two in parallel as it gives you a 600 Watt capability.  Otherwise you probably would have fried it by now had it been one 300 Watt 0.5 Ohm resistor.

It also tells me that these resistors are dropping virtually all the voltage.  So assuming that your alternator is giving out,  say,  13.5 Volt,  your cell only has 1.5 Volt across it. That makes for a cell wattage of 1.5 Volt  x 24 Amp = 36 Watt.

I bet it runs very cool.

Am I right ?

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Thanks Manta !  I'm probably slowly coming around to your way of thinking on that...
if you ignore the heat issue you're going to have problems, I'm proof of that !....
but How would you "re-jig" the alternator ? bet that wouldn't be very easy ! LOL
...
CRB has the Distinction of being the only builder that has defied the rules of OUTPUT!
I wish I could figure out WHY that is ! hehehehhehe... although thats not technically true because my own "Wall switch plate cover"(WSPC) cells have done Squat for output as well... and I have no idea WHY!
....
... sounds like a super easy current limiter CRB... thanks for the info on it ! how hot do they get in operation ?  super hot or just warm ?
...I am surprised that your electrolyte allowed you to draw that many amps that's QUITE SURPRISING!
...
I've never got anything above about 45 to 50amp draw with any of my cells... which makes me think there is something amiss there.... dry that cell off and do a continuity test between the plates and see if there is a few ohms between the plates.... if there is you found the problem for the low output
...
Bob......

[Bob]

Randy that visual  check on the plates not producing at all is more than likely caused by "Magnetic Plates" the Stainless steel isn't high enough quality for neutral plate use.
I bet if you check the plates a magnet will stick to the plates a bit.... it don't have to be much  any amount will muck it up !
...
Bob...

[Bob]

Ages ago when I was into ham radio and building electronic circuits all the time, I tried many times to make voltage dropping circuits... to no avail !  for some reason they never worked for me...
even a simple "T" shaped set of resistors with the correct values failed to work.... and I needed the lower voltage to power a switching transistor, I eventually gave up and went with a IC chip that did the trick for me ... but I've never forgot being so frustrated because such a simple thing defeated me so easily ! ... I did the math  and bought the resistors and still it wouldn't work.
Hense Forth I have been very Leary of Voltage dropping circuits !  LOL
 I'm not sure but I think it had something to do with AC vs. DC in its use !
...
Bob........

[randy]

Yeah, that could very well be, tested with cheapo washers from lowes and home depot, I just have better luck with parallel designs so I'll stick with them. the limiter seems to have conquered the heat problem, I really want to test with a 2" washer cell, then I'll know for sure, not sure what is having the most effect, electrolyte saturation, voltage drop, whatever but the cell doesn't even come close to getting hot

[Manta]

Bob,

If I remember correctly you also have a copy of that little booklet on alternators that I bought some time ago.
I don't have mine to hand,  but I'm sure it involves removing the normal voltage regulator unit from the alternator and building an ajustable one to replace it.  You then can set the output between about zero (not much use) to 120 volt.
If I can find my book I'll dig out the relevent info.

Dave
(Manta)

[Manta]

Hi Randy,  Hows the weather where you are.

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

hot, around here 75 and up is hot lol

[Bob]

Oh Yah ! that booklet.... now where did I put it.... so I wouldn't loose it ?
its probably with my car books in the back room ! ...yah that's probably it !  LOL
...

 I'm interested in seeing the output from your new stacking method Randy , compared to the old method
that may be very interesting indeed.
...
Randy Did you ever do a LPM test on your 4" cell with the Limiter in line ?
... I don't remember I think ya did but not sure.
...
I am worried about the limiters dropping production now.... cutting the voltage in half may have that effect.... however it SHOULDN'T.... for all we understand about HHO production says it should be fine but these things have a way of doing what they shouldn't !
...
its over 100 deg here again today ... too hot to do anything outside and definitely to hot to do anything under the hood !
I think Randy has the right idea.... go fishin' !   HAHAHAH!
...
Bob......

[crb]

I'm using -+-+- 5 plates for this test.  With 22-24 amp draw battery was at 12.4 volts.
When I bypassed the resistor bank and went to 90+ amps the battery voltage at the
battery was about 11.8 volts.
Does it get hot? YES, however, I put a little fan on it and it works fine.  150-200F
I am planning on putting it in front of my radiator, It should be fine there.
I tried 3 plates -+- dismal output.
I think my next POA (PLAN OF ATTACK)  will be cutting out some s/s into 3 7/8 discs
The s/s on my 3x6 plates are 316 nonmagnetic.
crb

[Bob]

Humm that's odd that WITH the Current limiter the cell gets Hot....
 NO REALLY.... without the Limiter I would expect it to get hot in about 15 min or running in about 1 gal of electrolyte... my Old "Randy cell" does that much...
but With the current limiter it shouldn't get hot at all .... I wouldn't think, even though you have it really cranked up with the electrolyte.(that should only aid in its staying cool)
 getting Hot FAST is a good indicator that you have an internal short... more precisely a "current LEAK"
which means the insulators your using are showing (very slightly) a small amount of continuity.
perhaps it only shows Up when wet  I don't know... but putting the cell in de-mineralized distilled water, should show no continuity  between the plates....
Now strangely enough I had a cell I fought for a long time that I made up with rubber gas line as insulators, turns out the rubber gas line was conductive, but the continuity did not show up between the power terminals , even on the lowest setting on my VTOM.... ONLY when I tested from one plate to another did the continuity show up.... I had something like 15 ohms between each plate, (most were lower than 15ohms, but the highest was 15 ohms....)
it wasn't till I replaced the black rubber gas line with vinyl hose that I cured the problem....
I only got about 1/2LPM from that cell at 20 amps but it was made of electrical box cover plates
4"x4" in size.... I had something like 22 plates on it ... I had originally intended to SILVER PLATE the steel plates.... and I left them in a bucket dangling with a silver fork from the Kitchen (shhhh don't tell the wife!) and left it on the charger for 2 days....( the plates were on the neg side.)..
and they came out Silver ! I thought I was done ... but within minutes of running as a Hydroxy cell the plating went away.... it would take a good week or Month of that kind of plating to do any good at all ! .... and I had green goo from the start with that cell it never went away !
...( I wonder if I had used lemonade would the goo have been so bad ?)...
 Nylon washers are USUALLY great for insulators, I haven't seen one that was conductive yet
but that does not mean the ones you got don't conduct! ...manufacturers have been known to change their formulas for reasons unknown ,from time to time...what works fine one week may not work at all next week even from the same Manufacturer.

 Randy and I searched for insulators years ago and He came up with the Nylon back to school folder that worked great.... its a pain to make your own washers out of but they definitely do insulate well!
...
If you have the time "TUNE the cell" to the amperage... by that I mean add or remove plates and take another LPM reading.... follow the output, if LPM went up because you took off a plate , well, take off another plate and LPM test it again! do that till LPM readings drop off and then put the last one back on. (that should be Peek output)
...
the APSI figures I have on here should remove allot of the guess work but they are yet to be proven
till they are "Tuning the cell" to peek output is the best way to get the most output from your cell
...
Bob........

[Bob]

Also your battery is not holding your charge all that long....( I have the same problem with my big truck battery)even though I have a large shop charger now capable of 200amps...a battery simply cannot keep up with the demand...
 As Randy says ... "Hook it to the car" its the only way to know what you'll be getting anyway!
....
Bob.......

[crb]

I was referring to my resistor bank getting hot, not the cell.
The cell only got to about 70 degrees, ambient temp.
No internal shorts ohm meter didn't budge.

[Bob]

Ok Kool !
 well I can see no reason for the low output at all then....
 are you sure your doing the LPM test correctly ? do you have a 1 Liter bottle to test it with?
32oz. if my memory is correct.... doing the test with a larger 2 liter bottle is misleading sometimes
I was sure I was getting under 1/2 LPM but I found a 1 liter Pepsi bottle so I tested it on that  and the silly thing made more than one liter before time was up, I got to looking closer and my 1/2 way mark was way off.... I filled the 1 liter bottle and put it in the 2 liter bottle , marked the level , put another in there and still had an inch or two to go to the top... strangely enough a 2 liter bottle holds about 2 1/8 liters ! or a bit more !
.... that might make a difference in your measurements !
Also start your timer when you see the first bubble come into the bottle not at the same time you turn on the power... some times that can be 15 to 30 seconds later as it has to push the water out of the line before the gas can escape... and that depends on how long your hose is.
...
the Bottle in a dip method isn't hard to do but you have to have the right equipment
I use a 5 gal paint bucket to hold the water, and a 2 liter soda bottle... although I have yet to measure out 1 liter an mark the soda bottle with a felt tip pen I know where the mark should be...more or less and its not at the half way mark on the bottle ! hehehehehhe
... anyway some pointers that may help  good luck I hope you can beat that cell into cooperating!
LOL
Bob....

[Manta]

Randy,

We don't get that kind of temperature over here.  Today is dull and around 18 C.  Quuite pleasant.

crb,

What is the voltage drop across the cell  when it's running with the limiter resistor set up in series ?

I'm trying to get a picture of the way your set up is operating.

Bob,

The booklet was called 'Alternator Secrets'.  I've found my copy and if you can't find yours and ever consider the 2 Volt alternator option I will be happy to scan the page and send it to you.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

No problem Manta ! I still have it here I'm sure ! I never throw anything away !  LOL especially good info like that !
...
Bob.......

[crb]

Manta,  I did check it butt........
I think it was about 11.5 volts. hummmmm
I kind of thought it would have been a bit lower than that,
I just didn't pay much attention to it.

[Bob]

11.5 across the cell ? leaves only a few volts across the limiter...!
 Manta shouldn't the voltage be ...say we start with 12v,.... 6 v for the cell and 6v for the limiter sense there are 2 loads in series... doesn't it divide the voltage between the 2 loads, or can it be varying amounts,  like 8v and 4v  and the amount of voltage taken is a product of the work done ?
...seems to me I remember that being the case, its "not always split in half" ...if ever.
man its been soo long ago I was in Electronics at college
....
Obviously if you have a resistor in line with another resistor that terminates in ground
the amount of voltage at the 1st resistors end to ground... can be anything less than the supply amount
figuring out the voltage at the end of the 2nd resistor is simple its zero because its connected to ground ,so it is taking all the input voltage it see's and putting it to ground through resistance
.....
but at 11.5v the cell is consuming almost everything that is thrown at it.... leaving almost nothing for the limiter... which is ok I think... the Limiter should last a long time that way
...
what in the cell consumes voltage ?  number of plates ? (in a series cell yes, in a parallel cell the plates all see the same voltage, in a Neutral plate cell it acts like a series cell even though the plates are neutral)
....
ugh the more I think on this the more cornfuzilated I get ! LOL
...
Bob.....

[Manta]

Crb,

there is something wrong here.

Let's take the earlier bit about the resistor first.

..So,  you effectively have a 0.5 Ohm 300 Watt resistor passing 24 Amp as your limiter.

That gives us a voltage drop across it of E = I x R = 24 x 0.5 = 12 Volt.  And it dissipates 12 x 24 = 288 Watt...

Ok,  if your battery is fully charged and  you have 12.4 across the terminals then when you subtract the voltage drop across the resistor from the total voltage available you are left with..

12.4 - 12 = 0.4 volt.

The total of the voltage drops must add up to the battery voltage.  In this case,  12.4 volt.

So you can't have 11.5 Volt across the cell.  That would leave only 0.9 Volt across the resistor.

0.9 volt across the resistor would give you..

I = E/R  = 0.9/0.5 = 1.8 Amp. That's only 1.62 Watt.  Virtually no heat at all.   This, of course,  doesn't tie in with your measured 24 Amp.

Time to dig out the mutlimeter and do some re-checking.

Bob's right when he says that the total voltage divides across the cell and the limiter. It can be 6 - 6 or 8 - 4 ,  or something else.  It depends upon the (what I call dynamic) resistance of the cell due to the material,  plate spacing and electrolyte. But it has to add up to the voltage available at the battery terminals.

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

OK, I double checked my measurements,
Voltage across battery before any load 14.1 I charged the battery yesterday.
Battery underload 13.0 volts
Voltage across the cell 5.3 volts
Voltage across resistor bank 7.5 volts
Amperage draw 24 amps
Sorry for the confusion, hope this is more accurate.
I only let it run for about 2 minutes probably the difference in the
13.0 and 12.8 volts
crb

[crb]

Oh, and it timed me out again

[Bob]

without power hooked to the cell can't we measure the resistance of the cell with the VTOM and  use that resistance in the calculations ? or would the Resistance go up as the work is being done ? we always see a climb in Amps as the cell warms up so I'd say that a Resistance reading of the cell(with electrolyte in it ) would be a starting resistance only ...subject to change as it were!
...although the Amp change as the cell "warms up" is usually only about 5 amps  it would take me hours of trial and error mathematics to come up with how many ohms that 5 amps works out to be ! LOL
....
 I remember taking a Ohm reading on one of my Randy cells one time when I had 3 cells in one container
it was easy to see which one was the lower output of the 3 .... the bottom one was !  because its resistance was less than the others in the same solution.  if I remember correctly it was somewhere around 75ohms but I could be way off. it was a long time ago !
...
E=I*R   20amps*75ohms= 1500
        20A*71ohms=1420
      14.2vdc or is that 1420vdc ?
...
at any rate I am sure it was a fairly LOW reading because it caught me as kind'a odd, that all that work is being done through such a small resistance
so 68~70ohms or so I guess  not sure anymore
...
Bob.....

[Bob]

I think the timing out is your ISP not the site as I take hours sometimes to type out my posts and it does not time out on me  !
 I even have my screen set to blank out in 15min if no typing is done and it blanks out often enough to remind me I was doing something DUH !
yet it doesn't drop me because of it....
 Some ISP's are a Pain in the butt no doubt about that... sense we switched to hughes net I have had no problems at all except my Kid hoggin' all the bandwith at 2:00am ! LOL
...
Bob......

[Bob]

interesting....
*****
 Battery underload 13.0 volts
Voltage across the cell 5.3 volts
Voltage across resistor bank 7.5 volts
Amperage draw 24 amps
*****
to me those numbers tell me the cell is in good shape....for no other reason I suppose than it just "looks Right!" LOL
...
what are you using for electrolyte again CRB ?
...
Bob....

[crb]

Three plates -+-
koolade unsweetened
crb

[Bob]

Ok take an LPM reading... a good honest one...as close as you can get with the battery and all
then add another plate to the 3 plates you have now.... do another LPM test
the LPM reading should be better than the last one... if so add another plate and test again
as you add plates you'll have to adjust your electrolyte mixture to maintain the correct Amps
more than likely your amps will climb as you add a plate so you can delute the mix with distilled demineralized water to get the amps back down
... this is what we call "tuning the cell to the AMPS"  and should bring your LPM reading up...
...
I remember when I was tuning the Randy cell the first time there was an area where I added a plate and the output almost doubled... a tad less, but it was real impressive as I kept adding plates the LPM kept going up, so I kept adding  the plates after all I had 22 of them I just as well use as many as I could ... I started with 5 if I remember correctly and ended up with 11 plates  the 12th plate made the lpm go down by almost 1/4LPM  so I took it back off.   I was all happy about my findings I got 2LPM at 20 amps and was all smiles and couldn't wait to tell Randy about it...  Randy was doing the same thing and came up with the same number of plates !  we had a good laugh at that !
...
I seriously think, this long arduous path is the only way you will get your Cell to produce now
I think you've done everything else in the book <GRIN>...
if that doesn't do it then buy some stainless steel washers ! lol !
 because those plates you have Just do NOT LIKE YOU AT ALL !!!!!!
...lol

Bob.......

[crb]

Boy, that ain't no S#%t
crb

[Bob]

LOL   
 Hang in there CRB you'll get it !
...
Bob.....

[Manta]

crb,

Yes,  those figures look a lot better.

The voltage drop across the battery will be pretty rapid when your not charging it and drawing 24 Amp.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

It is really surprising how fast a cell will take down a good battery....
for instance... I could crank the V8 in my dodge truck for about 10 minutes ( till things started smoking under the hood and I stopped !)  yet the battery was still going strong
( I pulled the distributor lead to do a crank test on the battery!)
I did this 3 times with only about 5 minutes cool down time before the battery was so low that it could barely turn over the engine any more.... (don't do this it is extremely hard on your battery and starter!)
.... I took the battery and put it on a 30 amp charger for 24 hrs... when I got up the next day it was drawing only about 2 amps.... I left it there till night fall
and then ran my cell on the same battery.... it didn't last more than 10min at the most.
and the amp gauge was showing a steady drop of power right down to 5 amps....
so I charged the battery again and thinking that I probably KILLED the battery doing the cranking test earlier  tried it on the truck again.... after 5 solid min of cranking I decided that the battery was fine and stopped and gave up using a battery and a 30 amp charger to power my cell !
 the funny thing was,  was as I was using the 30 amp charger AND battery fully charged,after about 15 to 20 min the charger would Kick OUT.... its heat protection circuit would turn it off ! .... and I was only drawing 20 amps with my cell, I used 3 different meters to check that and they all said around 20 amps plus or minus about 2 amps.
  SO rather than destroy the charger by working it too hard I decided to give it back to my Dad before I broke it ! LOL
...because it was obvious to me by that time that the 30 amp charger could not handle 20 amps continuously...
....
Now I have a bigger charger... a 200amp capacity one... that should be able to handle 20 amps continuously... but I am not going to bet my life on it ,,,as it seams chargers are not what they claim to be !
....
I run the charger now on the 40 amp scale to a battery then to the cell.... this seams to be working fine ...no drop in output that I can tell...but Like CRB  my output is quite low... at least on the WSPC cell... the Randy cell I really haven't given a LPM test yet sense putting it back in service... I keep meaning to but haven't yet.
 so learn from my mistakes and save your self some headaches ! LOL
...
Bob.....



 

[Weapon_R]

Bob excellent info posted in the file section. More on that later.

[Bob]

thanks !
Hope its of some use to someone !  I use that one all the time...hehehehe
...

 That fella's experiment on running an engine on a large balloon was very informative... on the amount of HHO needed to Idle the 4ltr engine as well as how long it ran.
 for "IDLE only" I was surprised that it took so little to just Idle the engine... a 4 liter engine is big.... my engine in my truck is just a bit bigger than HALF that size.... which means I should be able to Idle my truck on almost HALF of what he did........<GRIN> that means aprox 1.5~2.0LPM to Idle my truck on 100% HHO....
... Take note that that is about 150%less than Learned scientists have said that it will take to run an engine !.... (for some reason those guys are fighting us all the way !)
...
Hooking a big weather balloon full of HHO to the carb and running the engine was not only a stroke of genius but a very "brave" thing to attempt! but they did pull it off !
... the Amount of HHO used is not very accurate because its simply "Guessed at" by looking at the diameter of the balloon and then estimating its size. then calculating its volume.
 but it wouldn't be too far off.
...
 this is further proof that a car will run on 100% HHO and a very good estimate on how much it will take to do it...
...
  I am thinking that 10LPM per 1LTR of engine displacement "SHOULD" run an engine on 100% HHO under reasonable conditions.
even if its  20LPM to 1LTR of displacement it is still viable... just allot harder to get there is all
but I seriously doubt it will take that much HHO... 10LPM to 1LTR displacement should do it!
....
with that idea My truck would need 25LPM to run on 100% HHO...more than I am planning on giving it at first .... but I can work my way UP to that much !  LOL
...
with the cells holding their own in the lemon Aid now and not fowling up....the cells become a almost set it and forget it type unit....making maintenance very minimal.
... so 13 to 14 Randy cells should do the trick for my truck even under full load !
.... and no gasoline to buy EVER !
 I wonder how much money that would save Randy if he never had to buy gasoline for his truck AT ALL ?
hehehehehehe $2000, $3000 a year  Perhaps ?
...
Bob...

[Weapon_R]

An engine has a very small volume between the pistons and the head. That said 20 lpm sounds like a lot.
The balloon experiment does not say how the hho was added or injected. I am pointing this out because the injection
point makes all the difference. If hho is injected directly into the intake manifold just in front of the butterfly the required
amount of gas would be less. Better still would be to inject into the intake runners thus requiring even less hho.
Gas engines are extremely inefficient. When hho is added to the engine users
experience additional power and lower exhaust temperature which I am sure is a result of the proper burning of the fuel.
The temp must drop as there is no unburnt fuel in the exhaust manifold to create heat. The hho ignites all fuel present and this is what gives
the power. Now if add too much hho the ignition has to be adjusted as hho ignites many times faster than gas.
The above effect is also observed when gasoline vapour or any combustible vapour is added to an engine.

[Bob]

Correct !
 I believe the Balloon experiment went as simple as possible , although I read the artical with intense interest many times years ago, Memory has a way of changing what a person remembers as the truth... but I remember it as so... they took a large weather balloon filled it with HHO from a rather small HHO generator , it took days to fill it ...it was if I remember correctly about 6ft in diameter and they simply put a small ball valve on the outlet of the balloon and vented the balloon through the valve directly into the intake of the carburetor.... I am not sure if they put a bubbler between the balloon and the engine or not but I don't think so .... I sure would have !!!!! one back fire and your beading from the ears and searching for your shorts ! if not dead from the concussion!
...
they however never did try to throttle up the engine as it was an Idle test only ... they were intent on only one thing with the test and that was finding out how much HHO it would take to run a V8...
 I believe the engine was on a test stand... and the shop this was done at was in Florida somewhere
...
there is a Mark of truth about what you said about the INJECTION point, John (Hydrotech) made his own injectors by drilling holes in the massive intake manifold on his Dodge/GMC Truck pressing in tubes and then connecting the tubes to his generators.... the  idea was to get the HHO as close to the intake valve as possible...which he succeed in doing very well.
at the time he had something around 8LPM from his 3 TUBE CELLS under the hood...it helped so much that he got a wild hair and decided to try to run the truck down the block and back with no gasoline at all (he has a in line switch to turn off gas to the injectors)
he then fired it up and did actually go to the end of the block and back , but "it ran like SHIT" he said! LOL there just wasn't enough HHO for his big engine ! but it WAS CLOSE... that's the thing!
... He is the man that has achieved the 75MPG mark in his big dooly truck ... he definitely Knows what he is doing <GRIN>  he says"Unless you lean out the gasoline in the engine you are fighting a loosing battle!" (or there abouts !)
...
...
However Lest you get the idea that only filling the compression area is all you need, I would caution you on that line of thought.
 the reason the internal combustion engine works so well is because of the compression, not the explosion itself that takes place in there... ...
 Keep in mind that COMPRESSION increases the explosion many times.... without that very important COMPRESSION the engine would be very lucky to turn its self over on its own accord and run.
...
Sure an engine will run if the fuel is volatile enough, or less volatile and allot of it crammed into a small place , like gasoline /air mix ... but we are not working with super explosive stuff here
yes its more volatile than gasoline /air in some ways, but its end results are almost the same, gasoline/air having just a bit more Kick to it than HHO.
...
Bob.....
 

[Weapon_R]

However Lest you get the idea that only filling the compression area is all you need, I would caution you on that line of thought.
 the reason the internal combustion engine works so well is because of the compression, not the explosion itself that takes place in there... ...
 Keep in mind that COMPRESSION increases the explosion many times.... without that very important COMPRESSION the engine would be very lucky to turn its self over on its own accord and run.
...
Sure an engine will run if the fuel is volatile enough, or less volatile and allot of it crammed into a small place , like gasoline /air mix ... but we are not working with super explosive stuff here
yes its more volatile than gasoline /air in some ways, but its end results are almost the same, gasoline/air having just a bit more Kick to it than HHO.
...
Bob.....
 

Correct you are Bob. I am aware that compression is what makes the engine work. I am also aware the dilution affects hho. The vehicle you spoke of ran like crap due to timing.
If high mileage is all that is required one needs to look into vaporizing fuel. This will easily achieve 100 mpg and modifying the ecu is unnecessary. If there is concern about
additives then this can be addressed by distilling the fuel first. At 100 mpg+ it would be worth the trouble. 
I am currently acquiring equipment to carry out my own experiments.
Bob or Randy can you confirm the MKII 4 lpm @ 20 amps.

[Manta]

Bob,

Re the General Infomation File (which I cant reply on.)

...A Randy cell has 11 2"washers, 5sqr in each washer=55sqr inches for 2LPM at 20amps.

If the washers are 2" x 2" then surely you have 4 sqr",  not 5. which would give 44 sqr "

If they are round then you have 3.142 x r squared (1) = 3.142 sqr ".  even smaller.

Where am I misunderstanding this ?

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Weapon-R
No the MKII only gave 2LPM at 20amps ...just like its predecessor... at least that's my understanding
...
Manta...
  GOOD.... PLEASE fix my Math ! the washers are 2" in diam. with a 1/2" hole in the center.
I have tried for Months to figure out the area of 11 of them suckers and have failed!
 .... I had a feeling those figures were Wrong ...but i HAVE been using them for eions!  so you now know why I said the Randy cell had 55Sqr inches in it! LOL    
 I did the 2"*3.14159 and got 6.28~ then took off 1" for the hole in the center...
if that's wrong please show me the correct way and I'll fix that post !
....
thanks Manta ! very MUCH !
...
Bob.....

[Weapon_R]

Bob thanks for the correction.

I was referring to a statement you made here:
http://www.hydroxyhut.com/index.php/topic,144.msg1920.html#msg1920

[Bob]

Ahhh thank you for showing me ....!
 well, that's what I was told at the time, but that number was later revised to 2LPM but on that cell the LPM output varied wildly for some odd reason and he never did figure it out and eventually gave up on it...stating that it was too inconsistent to bother with ! <GRIN>
...
I edited that post by the way... thank you !
...
Bob....

[Manta]

Bob,

2" dia with 1/2" hole. (0.5")

So the hole has an area of Pi x R squared. Radius is 0.5"/2 = 0.25"

we get 3.142 x (0.25 x 0.25) =0.196sqr "

The overall area being 3.142 x 2"/2 = 3.142 x 1" = 3.142 sqr "

If we take away the hole we get 3.142-0.196 = 2.946 sqr " Per side.

this doesn't include any area lost from the insulated area for bolts.

11 plates (=10 gaps) gives you 10 x 2.946 = 29.46 sqr" in total if you only count one surface. twice that if you count both.

At least that's what I get it to.

Randy,  what do you get ?

Dave
(Manta)

[Weapon_R]

I think that the results were due to electrical connection failure.
But I could be wrong.

[Bob]

Ok FANTASTIC ! thank you Manta !  YOU DA MAN !
 heheheheh
ok I see where I went wrong and you were right on the button till changing the 11 plates to 10 ....because of the gap I would just mutliply the 11 washers (one side) by the area of one washer
which is 2.946"*11=32.406 sqr inches in a Randy cell MK1 ...Not counting the mounting holes and insulating washer coverage....
32sqr inches is much smaller than I had first imagened!
so that throws off my A.P.S.I. (Amps per Square Inch) figures a very long way....
....
so lets re figure it real quick....
...
32sqr.in.
2LPM
20amps
...
how many amps do we have here on this cell per square inch...
20amps/32in.=0.625 APSI
this is a great deal higher than the 0.4~0.5 of my previous estimates ( I hope your reading this CRB !.... this may well be the reason for your low output !) 
.....
this means if you have 100sqr inches of Plate area in your cell you'd have to give it
100*.625= 62.5amps to give the cell the same amount of POWER as that of the Randy cell
... (electrolyte strength may prevent reaching that high of amperage!)
Thank you very much Manta.... that changes allot of things for me!
...
and my Apologies to those that I have screwed up with my bad calculations!
(blush)
...
Bob......

[randy]

I still think the apsi depends on the type of cell being used, design characteristics change everything from what I've experienced.

[Bob]

Yah ! that does seam to be the case .... I was hoping for a Rule of thumb idea with the APSI figures
but it looks like the 3rd finger rule instead LOL
...
Bob......

[crb]

OK, I'll try 2 plates 3x6 for 36 sq in. and see what that does.
Been side tracked lately, putting a headliner in the 85 mustang.
Boy, did it need it.
crb

[Bob]

I seriously Doubt that will do much , but ya never now... there is a big difference here
32square inches divided up 11 times in the cell giving every bit of it the ability to produce gas
only the top and bottom plates are only using 1 side so that's 9 plates using both sides
...
where at 36square inches in just 2 plates, half of each side is not being used....that's a major difference !
....
it should be a good experiment though,...... I'd be interested in the outcome
....
I have NEVER put in a head liner in a car before.... I imagine its a real pain in the butt !....just like upholstery! LOL
....
try 11 2"washers CRB ! seriously.... if that don't work for ya nothing will !
....
Bob.......

[Manta]

Bob,

...here at 36square inches in just 2 plates, half of each side is not being used..

I'm not so sure about that.

If you envisage the multiplate cells as a series of gaps then it seems to me that as the current has to pass across the gaps,  it shouldn't matter how your total area is made up.

In any gap (between any two plate), one face gives of the hydrogen and one gives of the oxygen. As you know.

The one thing that may make a difference is having the total area made up from having two gaps as in two seperate two plate cells,  against two gaps from one three plate cell (still two gaps) of the same area.

There may be something about having the middle plate use both faces that reduces output.

These are some of the problems I hope to look into.

I now have three more small two plate cells made up and am almost ready for some serious testing. A new 50 Amp digital meter is on it's way from China and the rest of the equipment is completed.

As I am back at work full time I haven't had time to do much recently. But I will be going back part time soon and hope to be able to clear up some of these questions.

Randy probably has it right;  it's all in the design.  Now to find the best one.

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

Tried the 2 plates with koolade the most it would draw is 15 amps
need to get more koolade.  It had output but was minimal.
I think Manta is correct, design (round plates).
crb

[Bob]

Howdy Manta ....
sorry to hear your back to work FULL time ! HAHAHAHHA but I suppose that is a good thing for you eh ?
....God how I love being officially RETIRED!LOL
if you think about the Many gaps of a Randy cell opposed to just 1 gap of a 2 plate cell it is obvious
which cell will produce more HHO.... the one with more gaps... this is because each gap has close proximity to BOTH plates of opposite polarity.... that's where the "WORK" of electrolysis gets done at,
in the GAP.... so.... it follows that More gaps should mean more output.
so a Bunch of TINY plates as opposed to larger plates should be the answer to more output.
......
Say you had a bunch of 1" square plates.... and you some how managed to mount 100 of them in a parallel fashion .... you would have 100 sqr inches but 98 gaps.... (because of the 2 end plates in the string)
... this idea should put MORE metal in close proximity to its polar opposite plate than any other method
... how much amperage it would need is unknown, but an approximate value can be figured by using the .6 APSI of the Randy cell....say 60amps and it should put out 6LPM.... (till it boils the water)
but that's just a guess....
...
Now if you figure 2 large plates of 50sqr in each.... and put them together as one cell you still have 100sqr inches but only ONE gap.... the electrolysis has less area in which it CAN do its work to produce HHO..... in this case 50 sqr inches of GAP.... as opposed to the other of 98sqr inches of gap
so it stands to reason that the 2 plate cell will produce less HHO than the other 100 plate cell, even though the plate area is the same on each.
....
Bob......

 ( humm perhaps figuring plate gap for output is a more reasonable approach ?)

[Bob]

CRB and that is the other problem with only 2 plates... drawing enough current !
sense there is less surface area on the plates (as compared to many plates)the continuity of the electrolyte really comes into play then.... and its not easy to get very high continuity in the liquid
because there is a point where adding more Koolaid changes nothing...that is the point of saturation
... but you can add more plates and that will allow more current to be drawn
...
 
Bob...

[Manta]

Bob,

...you would have 100 sqr inches but 98 gaps..

99 gaps.  It's always the number of gaps + 1.  Has to be.

By connecting them in parallel do you mean having 50 plates connected to the pos line and 50 plates (interspaced between the pos plates) connected to the neg line in a +-+-+-...  configuration ?

.God how I love being officially RETIRED!LOL

I'm officialy retired.  But working allows me to get payed twice. My pension AND my wage.  Helps to pay for new Amp meters etc.

And indeed it is good for me;  up to a point.

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

The 15 amp current draw was with my limiter set at it's lowest setting.
My resistors have an adjustable center tap, I forgot to adjust it (CRS).
I'll adjust it today and get up to 20-24 amps.
crb

[Bob]

Manta:
  Yah electricaly Parallel...+-+-+-+-+.... all the way through the stack...
its just that you'd have a bigger percentage of the plates doing their job , making HHO than if you had only 2 plates with the same area...
.... you lost me on the 99 instead of 98 gaps....I was thinking starting and stopping on a positive plate  (if that's even possible on 100 plates LOL) ...anyway the 2 end plates work only on one side...towards the GAP next to the negative plate...  that leaves 2 sides of the plates "UN COVERED"
and therefore 2 gaps that don't exist... so 98 gaps instead of 100 gaps,with 100 plates.
...I'm just thinking out loud here , trying to explain how I think the thing works...
to me that's the reason Multi-plate cells work better than just 2 plate cells...its More of the percentage of the plates are actually used for making HHO
...

CRB:  well... that'll do it ! HAHAHA   nice to have that adjustable ! that's really neet!
....
Early On I did some experiments on plate SHAPE in an attempt to see if it was the EDGES of the plates that made the HHO as some people claimed it was.
I tried this on a tube cell.... it made about 1/2LPM at 20amps.... not a real great cell as I had hoped so it was a good canadate to destroy !...
 after getting the readings on the cell of 1/2LPM at 20 amps I took the tube cell appart and drilled a gillion holes in it on every tube.... I was sick of drilling holes by the time I was done let me assure you ! LOL
 after the holes were drilled I cleaned up the tubes again and then re assembled the cell and re tested it.... the output was almost identical to the first test , if anything it was a bit less in output... so that told me it was not the edges that HHO is produced on its the surface of the metal
... although the added holes would have aided in cooling the tube cell I suppose , the reduction of METAL that I drilled out had to be the results of the Tad less of output!
(and believe me I had a Pile of metal shavings when I was done around my drill press ! HAHAHHA!)
...
I saw a cell made with Star-shaped plates.... the fella thought that points aided hho production
but his output was only 3/4LPM at 20 amps so it was not the answer either.
...although Round plates (washers) do work well, I have seen square plate cells work just as good as the Randy cell.... ( although I have not made one myself <grin> )
So I am fairly certain plate shape means Nothing as long as all the plates are the same (so they cover one another good )
 some guys have made cells out of stainless steel Screen and had good luck, a few tube cells made of screen worked very well indeed.... they had no neutral plates in the design but were parallel electrically in design .
...

Bob.....

[Manta]

...anyway the 2 end plates work only on one side...towards the GAP next to the negative plate...

Doesn't the negative end plate face across a gap towards the positive side of the next plate ?
The outer (unused) faces of each end plate are at rhe same polarity as the inner faces

You can't have a positive at both ends.

Dave
(Manta)

[Manta]

Additional.

With 100 plates you would have 99 gaps,  but you would have 98 working surfaces due to the none working outers at each end.  Is that what you meant ?

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

....God how I love being officially RETIRED!LOL
Amen

[Bob]

yah that's what I meant Manta... er... I think anyway  HEHEHEHHE!
and you can have pos. or neg. on both ends, just add another plate if it turns up the wrong polarity ! LOL
.... even or odd positive or negative... just depends on which one you start with ! that is why the Randy cell ended up with 11 plates and not 10... just to cover that last neg plate.... after all its there ya just as well use it ! HAHAHAHAHHA! I believe the Randy cell starts and ends on a positive plate
... not positive as its been a long time sense I looked at it, and you can swap the wiring to have it just the opposite if you want... so the point is actually mute  <grin>
...
but the whole idea is to get as much use of the plate area as possable ... that rules out super large plates like 12"x12" unless its just easier to go that way for ya ! because the smaller the plate size the more efficient the use of the metal.... (more coverage is taking place)
....this is where the Neutral plate design excells, the neutral plates act as both positive and negitive faces in the same plate.... how it can do that is because they are excited by the electromagnetic fields... and because of that excitement the electrons flow to their respective sides in the same sheet of metal.... a good trick if you ask me ! LOL ...half positive half negative.
I seriously doubt you could get any real power going through a neutral plate but I suppose that's not true either, as Bob Boyce accomplished high output on a neutral plate cell... so it can be done!
 ...
Bob.....

[Weapon_R]

Bob I agree with the plate size and gaps theory. Personally I believe 5x5 or less for plate area.

[Bob]

Agreed!
... Problem is it all depends on how much Output you are going after...
take Bob Boyce's 101 plate series cell... it has 6"x8" plates if I remember correctly and has 101 of them, fed with 220vdc and all the plates but the 2 ends are neutral....( evidently raising the voltage extends the distance the end plates can be separated, because their almost 3 ft apart!)
...so this is a case where larger than normal plates do indeed work well because the cell puts out something like 70LPM.... He goes on to say that his control circuit  accounts for a large portion of that output.... which may or may not be the facts.
....in comparison Bob Boyce's cell is a small Plate cell,"for its size." its just BIG all the way around. LOL
...
For normal Hydroxy Cell use however, smaller plates seam to be the way to go
I can imagine a 12"x12" plate cell like that of Bob Boyce's the length of a pick-up bed fed with what ever High voltage it takes to make it work and producing enough to power the truck on 100% hydroxy gas
with no trouble at all.... even a large V8 truck use for pulling trailers !
 It would have to devote allot of the space under the hood for large alternators, and the electronics of such a setup would break the bank to be sure ...but one day it may well be a standard option when the gasoline is no longer available... not till then however.
...
Bob....

[Weapon_R]

Yes Bob higher voltage does change things I believe.
For some unknown reason I don't pay much attention to Bob Boyce.
Not sure what to think of him.

[Manta]

101 plates would give you 220/101 = 2.178 Volts across each gap.  Which is pretty close to the ideal.

If you bring that down to the smaller size we use then you would have 13.5 Volt/2.178 = 6.12 gaps.
As you can't have a fractional gap then I suppose you would go for 6 gaps = 7 plates (2 power and 5 neutrals) and accept 13.5/6 = 2.25 Volt per gap.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Very good Manta !  except that in reality, hardly ANYONE runs 7 plates because the extremely low output
they remove a plate or 2 (as most of them do) and then finally have a usable output from their cell
 WHY it worked for Bob Boyce I have no idea... he says its because of his electronics the big toroid coil and other goodies he has to try and reach the Waters resonant frequency ... but in actuality I doubt that part. anyone that mounts a huge Toroid coil on their cell isn't playing with a full deck in my book ! LOL... I cannot see where a strong magnetic field will "Enhance" production if it has no way to contact the water.... just the field being there isn't going to do a thing.... I think...
...
Strangely enough 7 plates SHOULD be the perfect number.... I've done the math too and it SHOULD work
but I have never herd of a 7 plate cell that was worth a shit ! to be quite honest !
I tried 7 plates on my first Randy cell and it was only a moderate output...... I thought 7 plates would be the magic number.... even in parallel but it sure wasn't !
... A while back on another forum I read where a guy made a 6"x6" neutral plate DRY CELL he stacked the plates to 7 plates like you'd expect him to do , tried it and the out put was terrible!
he fought it for weeks and finally took the other fell'as advice and removed a plate... the output came way up... it came up so much that he decided to remove another plate to see if it helped... and it did.... he then took off another, and production took a nose dive , so he put that plate back on and used it that way.... I think he wound up with something like 4LPM at 50~55Amps... but he was after more than that but settled on that much, put it on his ford F-100 and gained 8mpg right off the bat with his 390 V8....  he got all enthusiastic about it then and was in the process of making another cell just like it to get 8LPM total.... and I haven't been back to that site sense LOL
...
Bob....

[Bob]

been a while sense I posted on this thread... but not because I lost interest !
I just didn't have anything new....
well Now I do.
... I've been reading D16.PDF  and although there seams to be a few things that just don't make sense , like making all the HHO required on just plane water... a really good trick! and just making all the required HHO in the first place... and he says he does it at about 10 to 15 amps or so... which to me is impossible....
because As Manta figured if he made 24LPM to run his engine any conventional way of making HHO would require hundreds of amps ! not a mear 10~15amps....
 but be that as it may, he claims to have done it and it works well for him  at speeds up to 85mph on the HHO and the Hydroxy cell or "Water splitter" as he calls it kept up with the volume... which tells me he got it right.
... I want to do what this man did because I'ed not have to buy gasoline at all for my pickup ! what a god send that would be!  although I haven't driven it sense November if I didn't have to buy gasoline for it I'ed park the other car and drive the truck ! LOL
....

Now more than ever I believe it is possible to run my truck on 100% HHO...
and I found that it may be easier than I first thought by simply supplying the injectors with the HHO instead of gasoline... this would cure a bunch of problems... and make it straight forward
 if I can just supply the injectors with HHO and that takes care of the fuel delivery, then the only other problem is making the large volume of Hydroxy gas... I figure I need 15LPM to 25LPM ...20LPM being the ball park figure I think...
 but that is a Huge amount of HHO to produce ! ...
I could copy his cell and see if it gives me that much but I already know it wouldn't not without feeding it really HIGH AMPERAGE...... perhaps his PWM does make 50% more HHO than it normially would...anything is possible ! LOL
...
even if I had to get a 300amp altenator to supply the needed power it would be well worth it...
but I am not sure by any means that that would give me the needed 20LPM.... if I was sure I'd buy one tomorrow!  to heck with eating for a month ! LOL
....
  I am leaning toward trying his cell design out... but I expect I'd only get something like 4LPM at 20amps from it... if that.... I'd need the 120+ amps to show if it really will produce enough Gas to run my truck or not.
... so there I set.... not knowing what to do....again!
it seams in this business that nothing is certain, everything is an unknown and the only way to know for sure is to just DO IT!
...
LOL

Bob.....