Measuring improvements.

[Manta]

I was sitting here thinking that the problem with the HHO scene is that it is so very subjective.
Someone carries out a mod and it seems to make the car run better.  But does it actually do so. ?
If the people who are on this site say it does I don't hesitate to believe them.  But it be nice to have some objective way of indicating that things have improved.

In amongst these thoughts I was looking at my old BMW and thinking that it would probably have to be the car I used to try out hho.  It is the only petrol car I have.
The it dawned on me that the BMW has a 'miles per gallon' meter.  It is just a vacuum guage that is calibrated in mpg. 0 to 50.  The principle is simple.  The less you press the throttle pedal the less fuel you use,  and the more depression you have in the manifold. At idle it shows me to be doing about 45 mpg. The instant I touch the gas that rapidly drops away. In the ideal world you aim to feather-foot it along and keep the reading as high as possible.

So, if you add a vacuum guage to the inlet manifold of your car you can use it to get an idea of the improvement (or otherwise) of your latest modification.

Procedure:..

Without the hho turned on,  drive at a steady speed up a slight grade.  Note the vac guage reading.

Now turn on the hho.  Do the same run at exactly the same speed and again note the vac reading.  Hopefully it will be higher as you should be able to back of the pedal and still maintain the same speed.

Just an idea.

Dave
(Manta)

[Weapon_R]

Wonderful idea Manta.
Another option would be to measure injector duty cycle using a capable multimeter.
I am working on a way to track improvements instantly. Once I have decided on the method I will build a generator.

[Bob]

Yep that's Manta for ya...wanting NUMBERS ! HAHAHAHAHAH
(hurrass,hurrass!)
.....
 I used to have a Vacuum "MPG Gauge"... dunno what happened to it over the years but it was calibrated in MPG instead of PSI of vacuum...
 All I can say is that those gauges are IFFY at best not very accurate at all, they in them selves are a RELATIVE Gauge. sense they monitor the Vacuum not fuel flow. you said it yourself at Idle you are getting 45MPG...when your not getting ANY MILES at all...
 I think that the seat of your pants  is as good as that <GRIN> the human body is a very sensitive instrument when properly tuned and can tell the slightest change in performance.
but you are correct... it is still very much subjective !
...
I think if you want Accurate MPG reading you need to measure the FUEL FLOW...not the air
after all we are trying to conserve the fuel, not the air , so we need a gauge on it !
....
but the funny thing about fuel flow in todays autos is this... there is a certain amount of fuel that is pumped through the engine weather it needs it or not... they designed the engine system like that for a reason, and its not JUST to keep the engine from running too lean.
  You'd find that just like the Vacuum gauge your fuel usage is least at Idle and goes up
as the throttle opens, but more than that, you'ed see that lugging the engine is a major waste of fuel, much more than your vacuum gauge would tell you (although it would indicate a loss...) 
  I have experimented recently with my HHO gen going on the way to town on keeping the RPM down to a certain extent, while trying NOT to lug the engine and the preformance has really improved ... or at least I THINK it has <GRIN> and I reason that it is because I only have a small amount of HHO going into the engine , that the higher the RPM the thinner that amount is spread out over the fuel.... the Lower the RPM the more there is for each combustion.... granted we are talking a very small change but it is enough of a change that I can feel the change in the truck... it runs better, stronger !
... this tells me one major thing.... I need MORE HHO !
....
 If we were trying to market these things to sell to the public then you would need the numbers to SHOW the improvement. but we're not. but past experiments and MPG raits were substancially improved to the point of doubling my gas mileage alone.
when improvements are that big you don't need numbers to tell you, you can tell because you havn't had to go tank up the truck in 3 weeks instead of every week... just like Randy was saying !
...
 Yes it would definately would be nice to have a standard by which we could gauge "Improvments" but its really not practical to do so... at least not without expensive equipment!
...
  I don't remember where I saw the thing but there is a "MPG Computer" that plugs in to the fuel line and air box on fuel injected vehicles and will give you "Instant Readings" on your present MPG... this  to me would be the way to go monitoring both the air and the fuel is what is needed to be Accurate (it also attached to the speedometer)... if I remember correctly the "MPG Computer" was around $99.00 at the auto parts store... way over priced, but I have to admit it would be nice to know that information!
   It would also show the improvement of the HHO in improving your MPG because there is no connections to it, it runs the engine separately, and would HELP the gasoline do its job
...
 I saw one of these small 2"x6" LCD screen computers for MPG on a Big Dodge Recently and I admit I have been considering getting one for the Truck... it had memory of the best MPG
it had read outs for the air flow and fuel flow separately and even an alarm when you were running low on fuel !
 all in all it looked to be a very valuable addition to the HHO experimenter!
 do you NEED one .... NO but it would help Quantify the improvements !
...
Bob....

[Weapon_R]

Bob I believe the easiest and cheapest way it to use a multimeter.

[randy]

I have the option to shut off the generator with a switch in the cab, I've got the thing so leaned out the Idle gets rough when I switch it off, I have noticed the idle actually drops a little when I switch it on, but the engine smooths out when the hho gets to it, with it off the truck is jerky with a big stall when I depress the gas pedal to accelerate, with it running it's even acceleration, there is definitely more bottom end power as Bob said, I have done another test recently, there's a hill that I come down regularly, with the cell off it rolls down the hill at 35 mph without touching the brakes, with the cell on it will roll on past 50 mph requiring me to use the brakes.

[Bob]

Weapon-R....
 whatcha' mean use a Multi meter ? on what, for what ? ya lost me ! (hehehe my attention span is kind'a short ya know!)
....
  Randy... My truck isn't as lean as yours... but its close .... going out our dirt road I have the HHO gen off because it is so rough.... and the truck will surge if I let the speed get slow enough...so it is too lean at idle to run properly without the HHO... if I turn on the HHO generator it doesn't do that at all....
sense I live in the Valley now my commute to town is rather short compared to the 90 mile round trip I had when living in Shingletown....now my round trip is just 60 miles LOL
I was going to tank up tonight but I only had 50 miles on the new tank of gas so I figured I'd wait till I have at least 100miles ! HAHAHAH
the problem is most of my driving is in town now and that has to be hard on gas-mileage!
....
 I haven't noticed any increase in speed when coasting yet Randy but I don't have any long hills to go down any more... there is a few places that I have to watch my speed at though that I didn't have to before, so I think that qualifies ! HAHAHAH
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Weapon_R,

I see where you are coming from,  but I don't see how the duty cycle of the injectors can be measured with a multimeter. Unless you can use the AC range to display an average of the square waves. I would use an oscilloscope,  but it would be a bit awkward to operate and drive at the same time.
Also this method wouldn't work with carburated engines.
But that does lead to another idea,  could you use a fuel injector to inject the hho into the manifold ? This lends itself to various control possibilities.

Bob,
Agreed,  you don't need a meter to tell you that things have improved. But if you want to plot how much difference each twiddle makes,  you need something to refer to.
And lots of pilots have been killed by using their butts instead of the instruments.   By the way,  any progress on the gyro ?

Randy,
That 'running-on' when coasting down hill could be a problem. It does show that gas is drawn past the butterfly (or what ever you have) when you have your foot off the throttle.

Maybe the injector as mentioned above will give better control.

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

I'm sure the running away down hills is due to the constant supply of hho, it mixes with the fuel air helping for complete combustion of the fuel, using an injector would require pressurizing the hho, just messing around with balloons and fuses I have no desire to store the gas compressed hahahaha I had a previous cell mounted and introducing the gas directly into the intake manifold, by inspecting the spark plugs I could tell the gas wasn't being distributed evenly, the vacuum barb I hooked it to was in a central location on the manifold, #2 and 3 cylinders showed evidence of getting most of the gas, those two plugs looked perfectly clean, the outside 1 and 4 plugs had light carbon deposites, doesn't seem like it should work like that but it did. the 2 lpm of hho mixed in with the volume of air fuel going into the engine is like a fart in a wind storm but it still has a profound effect. what is really helping me with my results is the carburetor I've got, it's off a 1978 model and has adjustments for pilot air, primary main, secondary main and idle speed, very few carbs have those adjustments available, most have fixed mains, idle air and idle speed. with the fixed mains you don't have much to work with. the old Datsun 240z and 260z had su carbs, one of those would probably work well, they gave what I thought was too much adjustment with the mains, many people holed the pistons by setting the mains too lean on those cars, I remember rebuilding a few after this happened, after I'd get one running I'd go down the highway a bit, push in the clutch and shut down the engine, coast to the side of the road and stop, remove a spark plug and look at it, if it was brown it was fine, if it was white I'd remove the large diaphragm slide assembly and move the circlip down to richen the mix or up to lean it out, there were about 10 positions on the venturi needles, had two carbs on them and did this to both.

[Weapon_R]

Bob,

The multimeter would be used to measure injector duty cycle.
As Manta said will only work with fuel injected vehicles.
An oscilloscope would be perfect for the job but a automotive meter would also work.
Automotive meter can be had for about $50 up. Here is a good but overpriced meter.

http://www.amazon.com/Fluke-88VA-Deluxe-Automotive-Multimeter/dp/B0002SRIMI/ref=sr_1_7?ie=UTF8&qid=1309375630&sr=8-7

Automotive meters measure frequency, duty cycle, dwell and temperature etc.
If funds is not a issue then go for a oscilloscope.

Randy the closer to the cylinders hho is injected the better.

As for using an injector to inject the gas a regular injector would not be suitable.
There are special injectors used for vapor type fuel.

For carburetor vehicles is there a flow gauge we could use. Another option that I am looking into is to use and alternate fuel tank.
Plastic container which holds a known amount of fuel. Used fuel pump from scrap yard would be used and return lines would lead back to the plastic tank.
This would be a temporary setup. Smaller tank would certainly provide quick feedback.

[Bob]

LOL well the next time I plan on buying a $400.00 meter will be a very very long time from now ! HAHAHAHAHAHA
the Duty Cycle of the injectors on my F.I. Pickup varies by what the sensors tell the computer.... it then sets the injector fire rate ...the on off time of the injector would not varies because the addition of Hydroxy gas into the air flow except that the sensors would sense more Oxygen... assuming that is air alone the sensor would signal the computer that it is getting too much air and ritchen up the mixture the engine is getting...increasing the gasoline usage.
this is a common problem that we all must fight on these things because when you add a Hydroxy generator to a Fuel injected engine the computer tries to negate its effects completely. and your improvement from adding the HHO goes down the drain.
...you either have to fool the computer into thinking its getting the right amount of air or lean out the running of the engine from the get-go... which on todays engines isn't very easy... but it can be done in most cases if you know what your doing.
...
there are FLOW meters on the market that measure Hydrogen, Oxygen,Acetylene,propane and just about any other gas you can think of EXCEPT Hydroxy gas or Browns gas.... however properly calibrated the Hydrogen flow meter should be able to measure the flow of Hydroxy gas quite accurately... but it would have to be set for it....i.e. re-calibrated.
...flow meters are normally fairly cheap, below $20.00... as all they ARE is a plastic tube with an orface and a light piff ball that floats in the vacuum.  but these are not really suited for automotive use. I have seen flow meters at welding shops before so if your in the market for one you might start looking there.
...
 I Would caution anyone thinking about carrying a container full of Hydroxy gas along with them as they drive.... DON'T DO IT! Hydroxy gas is extremely explosive... fill a balloon and  light it with a match on a long stick and you will see that it is no laughing matter!
even one gallon of Hydroxy gas would be very dangerous...
 I have contemplated using a constant flow method from a small 1 gallon storage tank and have the hydroxy cells just keep the 1 gallon tank full to a certain pressure say 10psi
but this storage container MUST have a "Explosive pressure relief valve" on it... and it must operate at all times without sticking or you have a Bomb on board !and I seriously doubt that could be achieved with a plastic tank, I'd want a steel tank myself like a spent 1 gal. Freon-container with a 4" hole cut into one end and a relief valve put on it.
...I am convinced however that it could be done safely and relatively cheaply too.
...
as far as measuring the performance increase when using HHO I think the best way would be to pay and put the engine on a Dyno.... before and after...
but who has the extra money for that ?
hhehehehhe
Bob........

[randy]

on the light a balloon thing;
1. make it a small balloon 3"-4"
2. use a long stick match
3. wear ear plugs "trust me"
4. don't do it inside the city limits
5. prepare for all your neighbors to come see what happened

[Bob]

lol   Amen TO THAT !
...
 Who would'a thought that breaking water Molecules apart would result in a gas that is PERFECTLY set to explode at its maximum potential ?  Hydrogen alone will make a Poof but when you add just a little bit of Oxygen to it it goes BOOM in a big way
...
that is one thing that fastenates me... its almost as if it was purposely hidden in the make up of water for man to find when the earth runs low on natural resources !
its like finding  the ultimate softness in a hard object... the exact opposite of what you think you might find...from water, something that has been putting out fires and dampening heat sense time began, by using electricity in just the right manor you can turn it into one of the most explosive gasses ever found... its quite bazaar really !
it is SO strong of an explosion that it can run a car engine by itself... it is not stronger than gasoline/Air at the perfect ratio but its not far from it...
... I have read where Hydrogen alone running a car is like a 25% decrease in HP....
but if you add the other 25% from the Oxygen that they removed from the test , that Hydroxy gas has in it I bet you they would find that there is No drop in HP at all from using Hydroxy gas instead of gasoline/air....
its just a gut feeling I've has sense I started messing with this stuff...
....
Bob....
 

[Bob]

Randy , Sounds like the SU carbs on the 240z and 280z were a half breed between a motorcycle carb and a car carb  hehehehhe.
 Back in the day when I worked on bikes all the time I did the jetting on almost every bike I touched because they we almost always set up WRONG !... i remember vividly that the Kawasaki 175cc Rotary disk valve bike came stock into Reno with the wrong jetting... it ran so rich it wasn't even funny... so when ever I got one in to work on I always checked that jetting...
what a difference it made on the bikes performance !
...
Bob....

[randy]

yeah they are but instead of a cable the datsuns had a vacuum diaphragm to pull the slider, they were side draft and ran 2 cylinders in the 240 and 3 cylinders in the 260.

[crb]

Randy,
Seems like you have a lot of time into your carb.
Can't you move your fuel pump?  They make some small, universal, electric fuel pumps.
crb

[Manta]

The Stromberg carb is a better idea than the SU.  Both are variable main jet carbs,  but the basic setting of the Stromberg is achieved by raising or lowering the main jet body. unlike the SU where you have to alter the needle position.

Maybe you could find an old Stromberg laying around somewhere.

Dave
(Manta)