Manta's basic cell experiments

[Manta]

Ok,  here we go. And a surprise right from the beggining.
First,  my set-up.Dead simple.

A 200 gramm coffee jar. (the reactor cell)

Stainless Steel plates  Two 2" * 5" = 10 square inch of working area each side (below the water level)

Spacing 1.75 millimetre (68 thou)

I intend to increase number of plates etc as I go along.


The first test  result came as a surprise. The cell was filled with cold (14.4 C  57.9 f) tap water with a Ph of 7.5 .I connected an analogue  multimeter set on 50 micro amp fsd across the terminals of the plates and lowered it into the water. I honestly expected nothing to happen. But it immediatly showed a current of 5 Micro amp flowing.  This rose to 10 micro amp over the next 5 minute. It is now , half an our later,  still indicating 8.5 micro amp. I changed the multimeter for a straight 50 Micro amp meter just to see if it may have been the meter that was providing the current ,  but apart from a minute drop on current,  the result was the same.
There are no signs of any bubbles,  but I wouldn't expect it. But here is the battery effect showing. And I haven't got around to adding power or KOH yet.  Very interesting.

Manta

[Manta]

Next test came as more of a surprise.
I added 2 gramm of KOH to the water So mix is now 2 parts KOH to 700 parts tap water.

The current dropped straight away to 2 micro amp I was expecting an increase. I then filled another identical with straight tap water and just lifted the plates from the original jar into this. Current back up to 8 Microamp.  conclusion. increasing the adding koh reduces the battery effect drasticaly.
Question,
Do you guys find that this happens with the full sized cells ? more effect without koh I mean.

Also, there IS a massive capacitor effect.
I placed a 1.5 volt cell across the plates for around 5 second.  Removed the cell and reconnected the ampmeter.  Had to quickly change ranges to 50 milliamp range to stop needle pegging. Typical capacitor discharge drop followed.
I need to plot this curve.

Manta

[Bob]

Good info there Manta...  Thanks !
 I new the Capasitor effect was there... the darn thing bit me once !
but did not realise the KOH reduced the battery effect.... perhaps that is the cure to the Run-on-after-shutdown problem run a strong KOH soulution and a PWM and kill the heat as well as the run-on problem in one move !....
very interesting.... keep after it ! and thank you !

Bob..........

 

[Manta]

Bob,

Yeah, on further reflection I am inclined to think that it is more capacitor than battery.  Then increasing the conductivity of the electrolyte would tend to cause the current to pass more easily between the plates and leave less for the capacitor effect to store and to bite you. I think.

What has me wondering is,  all you have in my case is two ss plates dangling in water.  How do the plates decide which is to be positive and which negative ?  Any physists out there ?

Manta

[Bob]

its not the plates its the hookup wires , where you put them on the battery
 I can reverse the polarity in my Randy cell  and that helps a tiny bit in cleaning it up
I simply reverse the leads running to the cell so what used to be a positive plate is now a negitive plate and so on ...
...so the plates don't deside what polarity they want to be....You do by hooking them up!
...
Bob..........

[Cowboy]

The plates don't really decide which is which, the electrolyte does.  As you know, everything has an electrical charge to it, all the way down to the molecular level.  It is these charges that will make the decision.  An abundunce of protons will attached them to a negative plate and the electrons will go to the other plate.  It won't be causing electrolysis, but it will create a difference of potential as other molecules argue amongst themselves about what plate they get to go to.  It's just the natural order of things, like your hair standing up on your neck right before lightning kicks your ass.

[Bob]

Cowboy:
  Now Hold on there Buddy ! electrolite is a liquid... which means all the negitive stuff in it can go to what ever side it wants to with no problems... passing the positive stuff going in the other direction... just like ya said... BUT it only desides to go that direction because it is being pulled by the plate's charge... its a magnetic attraction and that magnetic attraction is due to the pressance of the charge on the plates by the electrical power put to it...
if you switch the wires the only change is the polarity of the plates and the electrolite will flow in the opisit direction  than it was before...
... so its the charge on the plates that deside which is which, and that is due only to the hookup wires and the power applied to the cell.
...
NO realy ! think about it
...
You can have the hair stand up on the back of your neck from a negitive charge or a positive charge
the polarity doesn't matter at all... and the lightning can still get you weather the lightning bolt comes from the clouds, or shoots up from the ground to the clouds !  eather way its  the same thing!
...
Oppisits attract in the Magnetic world so a + and a - are attracted... and if the plate is Positively charged by the battery it will attract all the Negitive ions/ molicules in the electrolite, while the Negitive plate attratcs the Positive parts of the molicules and the forces of the magnetic pull rip appart the Molicules of water seperateing the water into its seperate pieces
1 Hydrogen and 2 Oxigen atoms... so its no longer a Molicule and the gas floats to the surface
....
the big question is why to they float away if they are attracted to the plate in the first place ?
shouldn't they just stay stuck to the plate ?   ...maybe some do...and a PWM is a good way to release them eh ?
....
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

I agree with bob

[Bob]

Ok,OK but back to Manta's question....
if there is no wires connected and 2 plates are in an electrolite, which post is neg and which is positive ...before you hook them up ! ( is that about right Manta?)
...
and the answer to that, to me is Unknown.... Your right they will some how deside to start collecting on one plate their pressence makes more collect etc,etc,  maybe its just random I dunno... but if it started out say the left one is negitive and the right one is positive, wouldn't it be better to stick with that NATURAL SELECTION...instead of changeing it?  the output may well be inhanced a great deal because of that !
... thats a good question Manta.... but I don't have the answer !
...Probly why Cowboy said what he did... he saw the REAL question before I did ! <GRIN>
...if I had to guess I'ed say that which ever plate happens to have the most positive charge to it
would start collecting the negitive electrons, this would slightly induce a charge on the other plate and then a battery effect would take over... but as far as starting off from a clean slate and no charges anywhere... it would have to go way down into the molecular level to see the answer
...
its MAGIC Fellers !...... thats all it is !
HAHAHAHAHAHA
...
Bob.........

[Cowboy]

And now you're up to speed Bob!  You are correct in your first statement, but I was referring to Manta's question in regards to starting fresh with no electrical hook ups.  Remember, SS isn't magnetic, so it can't create the magnetic field w/o power.  Statement is provided with no scientific background.  SS could have a minimal magnetic charge just from being metal, I don't know, that's why I assume it's the natural current in electrolyte.

[KF-Puffin1]

not that my knowledge meens anything here.but i have been magnatizing all my plates as described in a article (by or about) bob boyce. 

QUOTE: from bob boyce article
A point wich is often missed by other people constructing electrolizers is the fact that electrolysis is not just an electrical process, but it is also a magnetic process. It is important for maximum operating efficiency that the plates are aligned magneticly. This will not be the case when the plates arrive from the supplier as each plate will have random magnetic characteristics.The easiest way to deal with this situation is to give the plates a mild magnetic orientation. this can be done quite simply by wrapping a few turns of wire around the stack of plates and passing some brief pulses of DC current through the wire.


sorry i cant find the picture to post for a better explanation of it.

[Bob]

I read that too KFPuffin ! but listen to Cowboy... when he said Stainless steel is NON magnetic he was correct... you cannot induce a magnetic feild into Stainless steel your wasteing your time trying!
stainless steel is invisable to magnetic feilds... it does not react with it in any way !
and Bob Boyce alwayse used very High quality Stainless steel plates in his cells.....
.... so that means Bob Boyce was out in left feild on that tangent.<GRIN> the rest of his info seams to ve very good however....
 Unfortionately we have to sift the BS from the good info all the time to get to the truth
even info from me sometimes ! I am no diferent than anyone else and even I make mistakes and asumptions that are wrong....
...
so far in my dealings with makeing Hydroxy gas I have not found a need to Add extra Magnetic feilds
I probly would if I were to try to seperate the Hydrogen from the oxygen but I like the hydroxy gas the way it is....why mess with it ! HAHAHHAHA
  But that does not mean that more magnetic feilds around the container would not help production
even the original JOE cell had a strong magnetic feild around it  which confuzed people and others later said it did no good.... but how can they be so sure ? HAHAHAHAHA
if the original builder put it in there and your copying his machine trying to get the same output you better copy it completely weather it makes SENSE to you or not !
....
Bob......

[Manta]

Hi all,
My broadband has been down for a few days,  so sorry for the delay in responding.
Just a quick scan through shows that everyone seems to be right on  at least one aspect of the question.

The selection of polarity on the plates must be random if no charge has yet been applied. After the first connection then there will probably be a bias towards the original connection. I have to admit that I did find something that probably influenced the situation.  After I had run the two plate cell for a few minutes I noticed an orangey-brown sediment on the bottom of the jar.  further investigation revealed that one of the screws that connected my terminal post strips to the plate was actually made of mild steel,  not stainless.  Hence there existed the probability of a micro current being generated due to the dissimilar metals.  This may have been enough to trigger a preference in direction of current flow through the cell.

Magnetism,  Stainless steel does exhibit magnetic properties,  but usually very small. Some ss has quite large capabilities,  depends upon the grade.  moving a compass across the plate will show this up.
As for current flow.  I found that connecting a 21 watt 12 volt light bulb in series with the cell serves two purposes. First it limits the maximum current to around 2 amp.  And due to this it works as a safety device in that if there is a short circuit in the cell,  this 2 amp is the most current that can flow. Adding extra lamps in parallel (to each other) will increase the current pro rata.

Back soon.

Manta 

[Manta]

Well,  here it is.  After much delay I present you with the Manta Meter.
As you can see all you need is a few feet of copper wire aka 'the shunt') and a basic panel meter.  I was intending to use a 1 milli Amp meter,  but couldn't find it;  so I used a more sensitive 50 micro Amp movement.  The principle of construction is the same. You don't need to know the internal resistance of the meter movement to make this device.

I decided to make it a simple 5 Amp meter as that is all I need for the time being. You can make it for any current you want. So on my meter full scale = 5 amp.

So here is how it's done.

First,  get a 6 or 7 foot length of about 1.5  Millimeter (about 60 thou")  diameter copper wire. Mine came from a length of twin and earth domestic power cable.  I used the bare earth conductor.
Refering to the drawing,  this is the green wire.

Next, disregarding the panel meter for now, and using using either an analogue or digital DVM and a 12 volt 21 Watt auto light bulb ( the load), connect up as shown in drawing.  You should get a current reading of around 2 Amp on the DVM (or multimeter).

Disconnect the battery.

Connect two wires about 8 inch long to the panel meter terminals.  Make sure you know which is positive. Any thin connecting wire will do as it only carries 50 micro Amp at most.

On the shunt wire (green) At a point around 6" from the  multimeter end,  solder the free end of the panel meter positive lead.

Now,  the calibration.

reconnect the battery, light should be on.Aprox' 2 amp showing on multimeter.

Take hold of the end of the negative lead from the panel meter and,  starting about half way down the bare copper wire, press the end of the lead onto the wire while watching the panel meter reading. slide the wire (press it on hard,  you won't get a shock) along the wire until the panel meter reads the same as the multimeter. i.e. say your panel meter is marked 0 to 50 , and the multimeter reads 2 amp, side until you get to 20 on the panel meter. This equates to 2 amp.Twist the bare end tightly around the copper wire, make sure nothing has moved,  solder the joint.

You can now remove the multi meter.The current will stay the same.
Make a little former (mine is about 2" * 4" out of ply wood or similar (Dont use metal) to wind the finished shunt onto.
 
Put it all in a suitable box.

And you have your meter.  For heavier current use slightly thicker copper wire.  The method is the same.

Enjoy.

[Manta]

try again.

[Manta]

Got it.

Note that the meter and shunt etc are just sat on the piece of board for the photo.  The object to the left is my two plate test cell.
Manta

[Manta]

A further observation was made during the first tests of the two plate cell.
During the very first test,  using tap water,  the current (with the current-limiter lamp in series) was just under 1 Amp.  When I placed the cell in the KOH solution,  the current went straight up to 2 Amp.  Maybe it would have drawn more, but 2 Amp is tops for this limiter. This increase was expected due to the increased conductivity of the KOH.
Question:  If,  as indicated,  the KOH gives such vastly superior current flow and gas production,  why do some of you guys insist on using tap water ?

Second question:  If you are trying to use massive amps,  say 200 Amp, and this equates to 12 volt* 200 amp = 2400 Watts,  where is all the heat going and why are you not boiling the cells dry ? My electric kettle is a 2.2 Kw version,  and it boils very nicely.

Manta

[randy]

I will only use distilled in my cells, tap water has a lot of unwanted stuff in it, really fouled up my cells, a good washer "randy" cell will pull 5 amps with just distilled water at 70 deg Fahrenheit

[Bob]

Thanks Manta !
 I have a few questions for ya now....
 I take it the wire that now exhists between the  pannel meter leads ( the shunt) is the working part of this.... that its resistance makes the electrons branch and flow through the meter  making the meter movement work, and the movement is adjustable by the position on the Shunt wire... and after calabration the lightbulb is no longer needed and the meter can be used to complete a curcuit as a stright through wire would be used... right ?
...
thats a very interesting way of doing it ! never seen that before.... thank you !
...
so if I wanted to use that same setup to make a 50 amp meter instead of a 5 amp meter all I would need to do is find a load of 50 amps that the VTOM could read use a wire as a shunt to get the meter to react to where I want it to be on the meter ( in this case full scale)
...
therotecially any load would work as long as I matched the meter to the VTOM right ?
say I used a starter motor to make a big amp meter with the vtom ( if it could handle it which I doubt)
in line say it pulled 25 amps, actually set the pannel meter to 25 amps(with the shunt) and it could then read 50 amps on full scale !
...
cool I think I got it !
its the resistance in the shunt wire that is doing the meter adjustment ... has to be...
if its a small meter then very small wire would be needed.. if its say a 0 to 30 amp meter what size of wire should I use as a shunt ?  you don't want the shunt to heat up  so the bigger the better, but too big and you'ed have to have 500ft of wire just to get enough resistance to move the meter !
...
I'm thinking of doubleing the amp range of the 0-30 amp meter I have now, that would be a bunch more use than off the scale all the time ! HAHAHHAHAHAH
...
and whats this about the current limiter light bulb ? you lost me there...
I don't see the light bulb on the board with the meter so I assumed it was not needed after calabration ?


do I have this all correct ? or am I way off ?
Bob.......

[Bob]

Hummm I see your point on the 2400watts of heat ...
I was hopeing to use a radiator of sorts on my 200amp cell but I havn't crossed that bridge yet!
...in other words Air cooled !
...
I quit useing creek water  for reasons that Randy pointed out ...its dirty !
i use distilled water only now...
...
Bob......

[Manta]

You got it..
 The bulb is only for calibration. As for ,say, a 50 amp meter.  All you need to do is set up say a ten amp load' Maybe 5 bulbs in series.
 If your meter is to read 50 Amp then 10 amp will appear at a point 20% of the full scale on the meter. You simply adjust the position of the panel meter wire to a point on the long shunt wire that gives you the same as when the multi meter reads 10 amp.
 NO NEED to set up a 50 Amp load. If you now did provide a 50 amp load you meter will read full scale at 50 amp.  Don't forget to remove your 10 amp multimeter first.

The important thing to remember with the shunt wire is that the thicker it is the more easily it will carry current. You don't want your shunt to get hot. 
So use thicker wire.
If you had a 1 Milliamp meter then all but that 1 milliamp is going through the shunt wire. you can
only let 1 milliamp go through the meter.

I'll try and post a sketch of the limiter

bulb.

Manta

[Manta]

In the sketch hat should appear below I have used a 12 Volt 21 Watt car light bulb.  This limits the current to the amount that can be passed by the bulb.
If you want 4 amp then simply put two bulbs in parallel.  This will double the current that the cell can pass before it hits the bulb limit.
If you had a cell set up that draws a small current when cold you will see the bulb glow dimly at first,  then brighten up as the cell passes more current, When the cell is drawing so much current it is acting effectively as a short then the bulb will be brightest;  but still limited to the most current that the bulb(s) can pass.
Manta

[Bob]

Ahhhh I get it now !
thanks Manta !
 with a 20 amp bulb in Series with the cell only a maximum of 20 amps can go through the circuit
which effectively throttles the cell to 20 amps or less because no more amprage can flow through the wires than the maximum of 20 amps ...even if the cell is shorted out the light bulb will limit the amount of flow through the ciruit !  hense the name current limiter !  very ingenious!
...
so if I wanted to Limmit my cell to a maximum of 40 amps all I would have to do is put a 40amp light bulb in series with it....when the cell is switched on and cold , drawing 15 amps the lamp and the cell togatherwould add up to bea 40 amp load from the start.... as the cell warms up and takes more amprage the bulb would get brighter as the flow increases getting to the bulb.... its a FLOW thing
so I could in effect enritchen the electrolite to 40 amps cold and have a bright light bulb to start off with but it would never go above that no matter what the tempiture of the cell ! ...
 there Randy your cold amp problem is solved !
...
now what else can be used in series as a current limiter ? would a ballast resistor work ?
or something that won't burn out on rough roads as a light bulb would have a tennancy to do?
...
thanks for takeing me back to School Manta ! I needed that ! <grin>
...
Bob........

[randy]

Hey now, there's something I'll have to mess with, that just might be the answer lots of us are looking for, test, test, test.

[hydrotinkerer]

Thanks Manta that's interesting. So many thing to test and play with, Not enough time.

[Bob]

HAY think about this....
Using Manta's Current Limiter circuit we can run extream Hi electrolite concentrations...
this will do 3 things...
REDUCE HEAT....a very good thing...
and start off with a consistant LPM output, even on short trips
and  NOT FREEZE !!!!!
...
Manta Your a Genious ! thank you !
 now How do we figure a light bulb's amps draw so I can set up a current limiter for  30 and 40 amps ?
...
P=I.E  power in watts equils amps times volts
I=P/E  Amps equils Watts/ volts
E=P/I  volts equils Watts/amps
....
Do I remember my formulas correct Manta ?
...
so a 23watt back up light bulb is.... 23/12= 1.916 amps ?  or say 2 amps.
a 75watt headlight bulb is 75/12= 6.25 amps
...
but when the bulb burns out the generator stops....
...
I need something with 30 to 40 amps draw...no more, 35 amps would be perfect

so I need something on the order of 400watts to make a current limiter for 33.33 amps
.... what runs off 12 vdc that draws that much power ?
ACK !
...
Bob

[Manta]

Bob,

re,....Do I remember my formulas correct Manta ?...

Spot on.  Move ( back ) to the top of the class. Basically those formulae are all you need to know. Especially the one to calculate power which means heat which melts cables etc.

True,  if the bulb blows then the cell stops producing : safety feature 
 I haven't tried any other kind of load.  The load has to dissipate the heat it generates and a bulb does this well. but,  as you point out,  it's not very rugged.
Something for you guys to work on.

Manta

[Bob]

a Specially ordered ballast resistor clamped to a heat sink ? hehehehe
...
cool thanks fer the confirmation.... been a while, never was any good at algebra, I never could get my head around changing formula around... I can do the formulas but can't swap them around, I've never seen any logic in it ... I suppose thats why I can't do it very good ! HAHAHHAHAH
...
I did some calculations last night while My ISP was out-to-lunch  (8 hrs worth!)
and want to post it here...
this is a good opertunity so here goes....
....
...
..
.
I am writing this off line and will copy and paste it to the board when My ISP provider is back up and working, they've been down all night! "sigh"
...
I did come calculations and came up with some interesting figures
at 55 sqr.in. each Approx... a Randy cell is very small...
so I got to thinking that LTCFisher might be on the right track of useing switch plate covers instead....
a switch plate cover is 2.75"x 4.5" =12.375 Sqr.in. each.
fisher is using 30 switch plate covers in his cell aray and that equils
371.25 sqr.in.... or the equivalent of 6.75 Randy cells in plate area.
...
we know from Randy that it takes 120 amps to get 12LPM from his 6 cells(330sqr.in.)330x0.0365=12.045
...(each sqr in of plate area produces.0365LPM at 120amps)
if LTCFisher puts 120 amps into his cells with 371.25sqr.in. x 0.0365 = 13.550LPM
....that is assuming the same Output of the Randy cell is attained... more than likely it will be less than 13.55LPM because of the close spaceing in the Randy cell.( closer spaceing does seam to produc more).

....
...
..
.
 Well thats all I came up with .....
Any comments ?
...
Bob.....

[hydrotinkerer]

Hey Bob with your ISP out that long was there any symptoms of with draw. lol.

[Bob]

Actually Yes...
I had to take a pill, My hands were shakeing real bad... started sweating  but I was cold all over!
but the symtoms went away when I started writeing in a text file <grin> I figured I could just post it later and then I felt better !
.... maybe I shouldn't drink so much c.c.c.c Coff...coffee !!!
Blink,Blink !
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Bob,
Been thinking about the problem of breaking the bulbs.

So today I bought a 750 watt electric fire element (the kind that has a coil of resistance wire inside a silicon tube) and pulled out the coil.

 The calculated current through the element is 750 watt/220 volt = 3.401 Amp.

This gives a resistance of 220 Volt /3.401 Amp = 64.68 Ohm. So I now have a high wattage resistor.
I calculate that the bulb (12 volt 21 watt, current 1.75 amp, nominal) rad a resistance of 12 volt/1,75 Amp = 6.8 Ohm.

So. I cut the element into 6 pieces each about 11 Ohm each. I now have 6 smaller high wattage resistors.

I replaced the bulb with one of the pieces in the same configuration as I had when calibrating the Manta meter,  and adjusted the length of the new resistor wire until I had 2 amp on the meter.
Replacing the bulb with the resistor in my test cell circuit gives exactly the same results as using the bulb.  And it wont break..BUT,  it does get just as hot as the bulb did.

Manta 

[Manta]

Carrying on the tests.
The following observations were made. In the drawings side A is using just water (you reading this Randy ?)
and side B was the 10% KOH solution. Temperature in both cases was down around 15 C (59 F) and the tests only ran for 1/2 an hour each.

Notice the radically different voltage drops across the cells for the different electrolyte . This indicates that the plain water has a much higher resistance than the KOH. This is,  of course,  to be expected.

But also shows ( by observation only) that the KOH cell is passing much more current than the water cell and is producing much more gas for less amps.
Bear in mind that I have the plates very close together.  Less separation means less resistance = less effort for the current flow.
I suspect (still need to try this) that using distilled water will need even more amps.

More follows.

Manta

[Bob]

INteresting !   Thanks Manta!
...
Question: Whats the box in the drawing ?
 I'm not following what you were testing to be perfectly honnest....
I take it there is Only 1 cell in the test and not 2...

...
Bob.........

[Manta]

Bob,

It's the same two plate test cell.  The left hand sketch is the current and voltage drop figures obtained using only tap water as the electrolyte.  The right hand sketch uses a KOH solution (0.03 %).
The point behind this test was to show the much larger current flow from the KOH solution.
As the thinking is that more amps = more gas, which seems to be born out by everyone,  and amps have to come from somewhere,  the battery/alternator,  then It begs the question,  why use plain tap water when you can get nearly twice as much current flow (1.35 against 0.8 amp) by using a mild (0.03 %) KOH solution.

The box on each sketch represents the bulb or resistor current limiter.  It's tedious in the extreme drawing using Paint.  Boxes are much simpler than the old zig zag resistor symbol.

Manta

[Bob]

AHHHH ok Very good !
Thank you very much for your work !
every little bit helps !
<GRIN>
Bob........

[Bob]

Manta !
so what have you been playing with recently ? any more experiments for us ?
...
I have been thinking of your "resistance wire" Current limiter and was wondering where you thought I might find a 30 or 40 amp section of wire like that ? 
how about a electric water heater element ? or a electric stove element ?... maybe a piece of them or something like that
...
I want to have a 30 amp current limiter on my truck so I can run a HIGH concentration of electrolite and get away from the heat generated... 90% of the heat in our cells comes from the resistance in he electrolite.... if we run a High concentration of Electrolite the heat generated becomes almost a non ishue !....
  this is a Must for a few reasons.... higher concentrations won't freeze nearly as easy...
start up LPM should be much improved (when cold)  and you can use it as a hand warmer on cold days!
...
<GRIN>
...
Bob......

[crb]

Bob, I believe you would want to use "Nichrome wire"
I also think inconel would have the same effect.
Probably 1/16" wire. as to how long? that's a experiment!

crb

[Manta]

Bob,

crb is right. Those are the high resistance wires used.  You would have to experiment a bit to find the right length and diameter.  maybe google the names and see if there are some standard tables published.
I think that some kind of PWM is a better idea.  Not as wasteful  on power. As I don't intend to use big amps I haven't really looked into that side of things yet.

As for experiments.  Nothing recently as I am still down with this virus attack.  I just hope the good guys are winning. I can't afford to be off work much longer.

Manta

[Bob]

Howdy CRB ! you do know how to post after all HAHAHA !  Happy thanksgiving to you and Yours!
...
Yah but Nicrome Wire is very hard to find and gets very brittle after its been used any length of time
...
I'm thinking it might be better to Order a Ballast resistor of the correct ohms and amp raiting
to handle the task... might last longer too...
I have repaired many electric heaters in my day and they are buggers to get and keep working because of the Nicrome wire... you can't solder the wire as it melts off ,(perhaps silver soldering would work though, or brazeing it.)
over the years when I run into an electric heater that has Nicrome coils in it I've discovered that
overlapping the coils say 4 or 6 of the coils pushed togather  will get it to work again for a short period of time... but even copper crimp strips will eventually loose contact... as the heat of the wire is so very high... I have not found a way yet to make a good contact LAST on a electric heater !
... I'll intertain any sujestions you have on the subject though !
....
Bob.......

[Bob]

Manta:
Perhaps a PWM would be better...less wastefull on energy no doubt but  they are brake down prone with so many parts in them... the current limiter idea of yours is a simple and easy  "BRUTE FORCE" idea that really appeals to my "Simple side!"<GRIN>   with it I can run a High concentration of electrolite
and get the most efficiency from my cell without burning up my  65Amp. altenator... thats worth quite a bit to me ! hehehehehe
...
I noticed on cold mornings that the Hydroxy cell is reluctant to ever warm up at all...
I drove all the way to the ranch ( about 55miles away) and checked the amp draw when I got there and it was at 12amps , when it started at 11 amps... so the entire trip was on very low output...

I think the Higher concentration of electrolite will help Output... but probly REDUCE heat in the proccess due to the lack of resistance in the electrolite...making it slower to heat up...
but with the current limiter in-line  it would be drawing MAX draw from startup regardless of the tempiture.... and at the end of the trip it would still be drawing the max... this is a great deal better than hopeing the cell heats up on a cold day ! HAHAHAHA
...sense we are only concerned about the cell temp to get the amp draw correct if the amp draw is forced to be correct to begin with , I don't have to worry about it unless the water begins to boil away ! HAHAHAHAHA
...
but having correct amp draw on startup is worth its weight in gold to me !..
and even though its wastefull doing it that way the benifits are well worth the waste in heat of the little coil.
   Old Mercadies Benz diesel cars have a Resistor about 1" in O.D. that glows when the glow plugs in the engine are hot enough to try to start the car... it may well be a perfect load for the Hydroxy cell
to have in-line  as a current limiter...dunno, need to test one!
...
Bob........

[Manta]

Bob,

If I remember correctly the old Merc heater coil was in series with the glow plugs in the engine. Unlike the plugs in my XUD that are all in parallel . I once had a period of battery going flat that turned out to be due to a faulty heater relay holding on the plugs when the engine was shut down.  With a Merc I would have seen the glow.
Maybe a simple relay or two controled by the current will do the trick. When the current reaches,  say,  20 amp,  then the relay knocks of the supply to the cell.

May work.  and it would be rugged.

Manta

Who went back to work today.

[Bob]

I'm not sure I understand what your saying there Manta...
can ya draw me a quick picture of the diagram idea ?
...
glad to hear your feeling better... if not that, at least you feel good enough to go back to work <GRIN>
...
I hope I pass on the Flu this year... the last time was enough for a long time... I was down for a week in bed and was sick for 2 weeks... worst I ever had from that stuff... its MEAN
and nothing to fool around with !
...
I've got the place at the Ranch almost live-able now... I still have to hook up the water,
mount the torlet, and Hook up the Kerosean heater to the Kerosean tank...( gott'a place the tank first though!)...still no phone there or beds but its getting closer
.... still have a long way to go !  and I had hoped to be moved in by today ! but doesn't look like thats going to happen for a while !
 Sense I still need a fenced in yard there to keep the Doggies in, and the price of fencing is so high....  its going to have to wait I guess !
...
 I've been wanting to build a large Dry cell ... and draw up plans on how I do it for everyone ... and even that has been put on hold !
...
so looks like I'll just start moving my tools into the Kitchen here and maybe I can get
the Randy cells rebuilt ! HAHAHAHAH
...
Bob........

[Manta]

Bob,
I'll have to re-think the above idea.
It was simple enough.  Worked on the principle that as the current draw got high this would pull down the voltage.  If you measured this voltage drop and noted what it was when you reached your desired amperage then you could set up a simple(ish) device to trigger a relay that disconnects the cell. Problem is that as soon as you disconnect the cell the voltage would go back up.  Your detector would see this and re-connect your cell.
In principle this may seem fine,  and it may work,  but I worry about using a relay to act as a 'chopper' at, say,  20 Amp.  Can't see it doing the contacts any good.

I suppose that,  with a Randy type cell, you could could use sa similar to switch in extra plates that would allow you to reduce the current gradually as the temp went up.
Say, the optimum 11 plates when cold and bring in extra pairs as the temp (and thus current) went up.
Using the temperature as the control medium would give a smoother control as it takes time for the cell to cool down.

I'm not sure that someone hasn't already suggested this though.

A sketch follows.

Manta

[Manta]

Here it is.

[Bob]

Ahhh !
I gotcha Now !
 I see no reason why that wouldn't work, I think Randy used an independant cell to do practially the same thing ( in the same bath)
 You could use say 2 cells in parallel,...to get it warmed up fast, and switch in 2 more cells off of those 2 in series so you would wind up with 2 parallel sets of 2 cells in series when hot.
...
... I think complete cells rather than plates would be easier to manage and the results are the same , just bigger jumps is all.
...
Bob.....

[Bob]

Manta:
 I have a Electric bar-b-q element out there  probly 5KW and a few other things like Electric dryer heating element coils ( nicrome wire I am sure)
How would I go about makeing a 30 amp current limiter for my cells out of say the dryier coil ?
... every inch of the coil will have a certain amount of resistance, that I understand.
...but I want 30 amps at 12vdc... for my current limiter
... I'm not making the connection here <GRIN> take me back to school one more time please ! HAHAHHA
...
Bob.......

[candyman55]

Bob,
I'm not sure what the dryer coil looks like, but the grill element probably won't work. I tried an electric oven element (probably the same as a grill emement) if you hook both ends on the meter you get 12volt through. But the way the electric elements are made, the solid wire only extends a little ways into the element itself and then there is a smaller coiled wire slipped onto the ends and as you said this wire is very brittle and you cannot get it out without breaking it.

There is a small resistor inside of delco alternators that may work, and tractor supply also has one in the tractor electrical stuff that may work. I got em both but haven't tried to limit my amps that much (yet)

[Manta]

Bob,

If you treat the element as a simple resistor you would get, for 110 volt 5 Kw

Current =         5000/110 = 45.45 amp

Resistance =     110/45.45 =   2.24 Ohm

So the useful characteristics of your element are :-


Volt  (E)          =  110
Amps (I)          =  45.45
Watts (w)        =  5000
Resistance (R)  =   2.24

Now,  if you put the same element across 13.5 volt you get;-

Volt =   13.5
Res  =   2.24
Amps =  13.5 / 2.4 = 5.625
watts =  13.5 * 5.625 = 75.94

You need to know how long the element is to be able to work out the Ohm per Inch . It will be small,  fractional even.

Let's say it was 10" long.  This works out at 2.24/10 = 0.224 ohm per inch.

So we want a resistor that drops 13.5 volt at,  say,  20 amp.

For this we need

volts  = 13.5
Amps =  20
Res   =  13.5/20 = 0.076 Ohm

Power  = 13.5 * 20 = 270 watt

Length = Ohm per inch * resistance required  = 0.224 * 0.076   =  0.078"  ( 78 thou)

This is unusably small.  But it is based on a fictional 10" coiled element. If the wire was straightened out it many give you a short but usable length.

But you get the idea.

Do a short basic prog and run a few 'what if' type entries for different values till you come up with a working size.  Even a spreadsheet.  I love spreadsheets,  but I prefer my own programs.

Enjoy.

Manta

[Bob]

WOOO HOOO !
THANK YOU !
that is what I wanted ! now I can do it !
thank you very very much !
...
Bob........

[Manta]

The following may be of interest.
I found a piece of perforated stainless steel that came from the outside of a truck air filter element.
It's only a bit,  but if I remember right the original was about12" high and 10" diameter.

Could be a useful source of ss. Check your truck service stations;  they probably throw them away when they change them.

Manta

[Bob]

OH yah ! Dumpster diveing at the truck stop may be a good way to get 12" to 18" preferated SS that way ! ... might be a pain to get the steel off the filter but it can be done !
 good thinking !
Thanks !
Bob.........

[crb]

Found this on hho forums,
I'm running brute force systems with an inline 1 ohm 225W resistor as my "current limiter" circuit. This clamps my current at @ 14 amps and divides the voltage so I get @ 3 vdc (14A) at the cell.

Thought this might be a little food for thought!
 

[Bob]

Howdy CRB !
thanks for the info !
sounds like if I wanted a higher amperage "Current limiter" all I would have to do is use 2 of those resistors in parallel and I'ed have a 28amp current limiter..... er I think anyway!
...
or would I have to use 1/2 ohm resisters in parallel ? 225w ?
...
...
I really like the idea of using a Current limiter on the system because of the ability to run Higher
electrolyte concentrations it would give me ....
any comments on that ?
...
Bob.......

[crb]

Bob,  Just a guess on my part,  Maybe!!

crb

[Manta]

crb,

Yes,  there are both good and bad sides to using a resistor to limit the current. The good side is that you can do it easily,  the bad side is the voltage drop. With a resistive limiter you are never going to get all the voltage. I don't know how this effect things practically;  leave that for you big amp men to test.

You could try putting the resistor after the cell.  I.e  between the cell and ground.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
I thought that is the way you'd have to hook up the current limiter into the system... AFTER
the cell....  there are other ways Perhaps ?
...
 I'm working up the currage to try and make a resistance coil, from a old Electric dryer heating element
or perhaps a electric water heater element.
but before I do that I need to get my cell back togather and back on the truck <GRIN>
...
its getting too darn cold to be outside very long up here and my tinkering is very limited now !
HAHAHAHA ... Panzy! I guess!
HAHAHAH
Bob......
 
 

[Bob]

Manta:
  Ok I let it slide for a while but Now I really need to understand it... <GRIN>
your saying that if I put a resistor after the hydroxy cell to ground... as a current limiter.
that the voltage will drop on the cell ?
 I am guessing that is because they are in series and the voltage in series is divided among the elements of the series chain...right ? 
...
or is how much voltage the elements see Dependant upon their absorption of the power/amperage
I seam to remember that it was a messy formula and you had to take the inductance of the element into consideration... like 1/r1+1/r2+1/r3 or something like that.

My problem is if I have a 2 Ohm resister, able to handle say 2000watts ( glowing white hot!)
after my Hydroxy cell... what will be the voltage to my cell ...
the resistor will stop any more amprage from going through the cell than can go through the resistor
I got that through my head now... but what about the voltage ?  now much will it drop ?
will it simply be devided by 2 ? because there is 2 elements in the chain ?
or is it more complicated than that ?
...
My cell needs at least 3vdc per plate and sense their hooked in parallel to the power source what ever is on the line will go to each plate... so reduceing it from 12vdc to 3vdc isn't a bad thing at all
...so if that main line was reduced to 6vdc because of 2 elements in the line  that wouldn't be a bad thing ....
... do you see my confusion ?... I'm not sure I understand this current limiter idea completely.
...
I understand that with a current limiter in line that is going to slow down the electrons through the cell to the max the current limiter can pass... so no more than the current limiters rating can pass
 ...
but dropping voltage ? whats that all about ? hehehehe
Bob.......

[candyman55]

Bob,
I don't think that the resistor no matter where you put it will decrease your voltage, only your amperage.
If you put he resistor after the cells would that not make the cells act as a large heatsink and increase your cell temp? If you want to decrease the voltage you have to either run more cells in series or use a 6 volt system.

[Manta]

A cautionary tale.

As some of you may know I bought a multi channel data logger.  A Pico ADC-11. It looked like a very good instrument for gathering details of the experiments.. BUT

If anyone is contemplating getting one of these do first check with Pico that it will work with your computer.
I am having to send mine back as it wont take reading for more than three minutes without crashing the computer.  Pico acknowledge the problem and say they don't have an answer to it. It only occurs on certain computers. The ADC-11 I have is a usb version.  Maybe the parallel port version is better. At least they have offered to refund my money,  about $200.
They do other loggers,  maybe a different one will work.

You have been warned.

Manta

[Cowboy]

Bob,

  It doesn't matter where you put the resistor, it will create a voltage drop.  The total of that voltage drop depends entirely on the resistance of your cell.  Being a 1 ohm resistor I doubt it will use more than one or two volts off of the circuit.  That being said, you may need to drop a cell on your series design to continue production.  it will still be a 12V drop from + to -.