Manta's basic cell experiments

[Manta]

Ok,  here we go. And a surprise right from the beggining.
First,  my set-up.Dead simple.

A 200 gramm coffee jar. (the reactor cell)

Stainless Steel plates  Two 2" * 5" = 10 square inch of working area each side (below the water level)

Spacing 1.75 millimetre (68 thou)

I intend to increase number of plates etc as I go along.


The first test  result came as a surprise. The cell was filled with cold (14.4 C  57.9 f) tap water with a Ph of 7.5 .I connected an analogue  multimeter set on 50 micro amp fsd across the terminals of the plates and lowered it into the water. I honestly expected nothing to happen. But it immediatly showed a current of 5 Micro amp flowing.  This rose to 10 micro amp over the next 5 minute. It is now , half an our later,  still indicating 8.5 micro amp. I changed the multimeter for a straight 50 Micro amp meter just to see if it may have been the meter that was providing the current ,  but apart from a minute drop on current,  the result was the same.
There are no signs of any bubbles,  but I wouldn't expect it. But here is the battery effect showing. And I haven't got around to adding power or KOH yet.  Very interesting.

Manta

[Manta]

Next test came as more of a surprise.
I added 2 gramm of KOH to the water So mix is now 2 parts KOH to 700 parts tap water.

The current dropped straight away to 2 micro amp I was expecting an increase. I then filled another identical with straight tap water and just lifted the plates from the original jar into this. Current back up to 8 Microamp.  conclusion. increasing the adding koh reduces the battery effect drasticaly.
Question,
Do you guys find that this happens with the full sized cells ? more effect without koh I mean.

Also, there IS a massive capacitor effect.
I placed a 1.5 volt cell across the plates for around 5 second.  Removed the cell and reconnected the ampmeter.  Had to quickly change ranges to 50 milliamp range to stop needle pegging. Typical capacitor discharge drop followed.
I need to plot this curve.

Manta

[Bob]

Good info there Manta...  Thanks !
 I new the Capasitor effect was there... the darn thing bit me once !
but did not realise the KOH reduced the battery effect.... perhaps that is the cure to the Run-on-after-shutdown problem run a strong KOH soulution and a PWM and kill the heat as well as the run-on problem in one move !....
very interesting.... keep after it ! and thank you !

Bob..........

 

[Manta]

Bob,

Yeah, on further reflection I am inclined to think that it is more capacitor than battery.  Then increasing the conductivity of the electrolyte would tend to cause the current to pass more easily between the plates and leave less for the capacitor effect to store and to bite you. I think.

What has me wondering is,  all you have in my case is two ss plates dangling in water.  How do the plates decide which is to be positive and which negative ?  Any physists out there ?

Manta

[Bob]

its not the plates its the hookup wires , where you put them on the battery
 I can reverse the polarity in my Randy cell  and that helps a tiny bit in cleaning it up
I simply reverse the leads running to the cell so what used to be a positive plate is now a negitive plate and so on ...
...so the plates don't deside what polarity they want to be....You do by hooking them up!
...
Bob..........

[Cowboy]

The plates don't really decide which is which, the electrolyte does.  As you know, everything has an electrical charge to it, all the way down to the molecular level.  It is these charges that will make the decision.  An abundunce of protons will attached them to a negative plate and the electrons will go to the other plate.  It won't be causing electrolysis, but it will create a difference of potential as other molecules argue amongst themselves about what plate they get to go to.  It's just the natural order of things, like your hair standing up on your neck right before lightning kicks your ass.

[Bob]

Cowboy:
  Now Hold on there Buddy ! electrolite is a liquid... which means all the negitive stuff in it can go to what ever side it wants to with no problems... passing the positive stuff going in the other direction... just like ya said... BUT it only desides to go that direction because it is being pulled by the plate's charge... its a magnetic attraction and that magnetic attraction is due to the pressance of the charge on the plates by the electrical power put to it...
if you switch the wires the only change is the polarity of the plates and the electrolite will flow in the opisit direction  than it was before...
... so its the charge on the plates that deside which is which, and that is due only to the hookup wires and the power applied to the cell.
...
NO realy ! think about it
...
You can have the hair stand up on the back of your neck from a negitive charge or a positive charge
the polarity doesn't matter at all... and the lightning can still get you weather the lightning bolt comes from the clouds, or shoots up from the ground to the clouds !  eather way its  the same thing!
...
Oppisits attract in the Magnetic world so a + and a - are attracted... and if the plate is Positively charged by the battery it will attract all the Negitive ions/ molicules in the electrolite, while the Negitive plate attratcs the Positive parts of the molicules and the forces of the magnetic pull rip appart the Molicules of water seperateing the water into its seperate pieces
1 Hydrogen and 2 Oxigen atoms... so its no longer a Molicule and the gas floats to the surface
....
the big question is why to they float away if they are attracted to the plate in the first place ?
shouldn't they just stay stuck to the plate ?   ...maybe some do...and a PWM is a good way to release them eh ?
....
Bob.......

[scratch1676]

I agree with bob

[Bob]

Ok,OK but back to Manta's question....
if there is no wires connected and 2 plates are in an electrolite, which post is neg and which is positive ...before you hook them up ! ( is that about right Manta?)
...
and the answer to that, to me is Unknown.... Your right they will some how deside to start collecting on one plate their pressence makes more collect etc,etc,  maybe its just random I dunno... but if it started out say the left one is negitive and the right one is positive, wouldn't it be better to stick with that NATURAL SELECTION...instead of changeing it?  the output may well be inhanced a great deal because of that !
... thats a good question Manta.... but I don't have the answer !
...Probly why Cowboy said what he did... he saw the REAL question before I did ! <GRIN>
...if I had to guess I'ed say that which ever plate happens to have the most positive charge to it
would start collecting the negitive electrons, this would slightly induce a charge on the other plate and then a battery effect would take over... but as far as starting off from a clean slate and no charges anywhere... it would have to go way down into the molecular level to see the answer
...
its MAGIC Fellers !...... thats all it is !
HAHAHAHAHAHA
...
Bob.........

[Cowboy]

And now you're up to speed Bob!  You are correct in your first statement, but I was referring to Manta's question in regards to starting fresh with no electrical hook ups.  Remember, SS isn't magnetic, so it can't create the magnetic field w/o power.  Statement is provided with no scientific background.  SS could have a minimal magnetic charge just from being metal, I don't know, that's why I assume it's the natural current in electrolyte.

[KF-Puffin1]

not that my knowledge meens anything here.but i have been magnatizing all my plates as described in a article (by or about) bob boyce. 

QUOTE: from bob boyce article
A point wich is often missed by other people constructing electrolizers is the fact that electrolysis is not just an electrical process, but it is also a magnetic process. It is important for maximum operating efficiency that the plates are aligned magneticly. This will not be the case when the plates arrive from the supplier as each plate will have random magnetic characteristics.The easiest way to deal with this situation is to give the plates a mild magnetic orientation. this can be done quite simply by wrapping a few turns of wire around the stack of plates and passing some brief pulses of DC current through the wire.


sorry i cant find the picture to post for a better explanation of it.

[Bob]

I read that too KFPuffin ! but listen to Cowboy... when he said Stainless steel is NON magnetic he was correct... you cannot induce a magnetic feild into Stainless steel your wasteing your time trying!
stainless steel is invisable to magnetic feilds... it does not react with it in any way !
and Bob Boyce alwayse used very High quality Stainless steel plates in his cells.....
.... so that means Bob Boyce was out in left feild on that tangent.<GRIN> the rest of his info seams to ve very good however....
 Unfortionately we have to sift the BS from the good info all the time to get to the truth
even info from me sometimes ! I am no diferent than anyone else and even I make mistakes and asumptions that are wrong....
...
so far in my dealings with makeing Hydroxy gas I have not found a need to Add extra Magnetic feilds
I probly would if I were to try to seperate the Hydrogen from the oxygen but I like the hydroxy gas the way it is....why mess with it ! HAHAHHAHA
  But that does not mean that more magnetic feilds around the container would not help production
even the original JOE cell had a strong magnetic feild around it  which confuzed people and others later said it did no good.... but how can they be so sure ? HAHAHAHAHA
if the original builder put it in there and your copying his machine trying to get the same output you better copy it completely weather it makes SENSE to you or not !
....
Bob......

[Manta]

Hi all,
My broadband has been down for a few days,  so sorry for the delay in responding.
Just a quick scan through shows that everyone seems to be right on  at least one aspect of the question.

The selection of polarity on the plates must be random if no charge has yet been applied. After the first connection then there will probably be a bias towards the original connection. I have to admit that I did find something that probably influenced the situation.  After I had run the two plate cell for a few minutes I noticed an orangey-brown sediment on the bottom of the jar.  further investigation revealed that one of the screws that connected my terminal post strips to the plate was actually made of mild steel,  not stainless.  Hence there existed the probability of a micro current being generated due to the dissimilar metals.  This may have been enough to trigger a preference in direction of current flow through the cell.

Magnetism,  Stainless steel does exhibit magnetic properties,  but usually very small. Some ss has quite large capabilities,  depends upon the grade.  moving a compass across the plate will show this up.
As for current flow.  I found that connecting a 21 watt 12 volt light bulb in series with the cell serves two purposes. First it limits the maximum current to around 2 amp.  And due to this it works as a safety device in that if there is a short circuit in the cell,  this 2 amp is the most current that can flow. Adding extra lamps in parallel (to each other) will increase the current pro rata.

Back soon.

Manta 

[Manta]

Well,  here it is.  After much delay I present you with the Manta Meter.
As you can see all you need is a few feet of copper wire aka 'the shunt') and a basic panel meter.  I was intending to use a 1 milli Amp meter,  but couldn't find it;  so I used a more sensitive 50 micro Amp movement.  The principle of construction is the same. You don't need to know the internal resistance of the meter movement to make this device.

I decided to make it a simple 5 Amp meter as that is all I need for the time being. You can make it for any current you want. So on my meter full scale = 5 amp.

So here is how it's done.

First,  get a 6 or 7 foot length of about 1.5  Millimeter (about 60 thou")  diameter copper wire. Mine came from a length of twin and earth domestic power cable.  I used the bare earth conductor.
Refering to the drawing,  this is the green wire.

Next, disregarding the panel meter for now, and using using either an analogue or digital DVM and a 12 volt 21 Watt auto light bulb ( the load), connect up as shown in drawing.  You should get a current reading of around 2 Amp on the DVM (or multimeter).

Disconnect the battery.

Connect two wires about 8 inch long to the panel meter terminals.  Make sure you know which is positive. Any thin connecting wire will do as it only carries 50 micro Amp at most.

On the shunt wire (green) At a point around 6" from the  multimeter end,  solder the free end of the panel meter positive lead.

Now,  the calibration.

reconnect the battery, light should be on.Aprox' 2 amp showing on multimeter.

Take hold of the end of the negative lead from the panel meter and,  starting about half way down the bare copper wire, press the end of the lead onto the wire while watching the panel meter reading. slide the wire (press it on hard,  you won't get a shock) along the wire until the panel meter reads the same as the multimeter. i.e. say your panel meter is marked 0 to 50 , and the multimeter reads 2 amp, side until you get to 20 on the panel meter. This equates to 2 amp.Twist the bare end tightly around the copper wire, make sure nothing has moved,  solder the joint.

You can now remove the multi meter.The current will stay the same.
Make a little former (mine is about 2" * 4" out of ply wood or similar (Dont use metal) to wind the finished shunt onto.
 
Put it all in a suitable box.

And you have your meter.  For heavier current use slightly thicker copper wire.  The method is the same.

Enjoy.

[Manta]

try again.