Protection from FREEZING !!!!

[Bob]

Winter is soon upon us guys and from the looks of things KOH and Lemonaid will freeze solid !
and we have to come up with an Antifreeze for the Hydroxy cells or risk splitting both the bubbler and the cell itself to pieces !
 Randy has tried Denatured Alcohol, and I have put KOH and water in the freezer to see if it freezes...
it does... at Randys request I also put Muratic Acid in the freezer...it does not freeze even after a week ( I forgot it in there!) but I don't think it can be used in the Hydroxy cell even if we want to
not totally sure what they use it for in swimming pools but i think its an Acid Killer or Clorine killer
to bring the clorine down after shock treetment !
...if thats the case it will neturilise the KOH... and thats lible to kill conductivity !
...
I dunno... but we need a good anti-freeze !
anyone got any bright ideas
Bob
 

[randy]

Hey I forgot to let anyone know, the denatured alcohol works, but you've got to start over with the electrolyte mixture, seems the 20% denatured alcohol and distilled has some conductivity, thought it messed up my cell so I drained it and opened it up, everything looked great so I sealed er back up and reinstalled, I mixed the alcohol and water then added the koolaid until the amps were up to snuff, hasn't had a problem since.

[LarryW]

I thought I heard something about running windshield washer fluid.  I do now it will run off of it, but.. not sure if it hurts anything???

[geezer]

I must be missing something .But how do you expect to keep the alcohol from evaporating. I have seen too many fruit jars filled not to know that when you warm up the mash the alcohol is the first to leave.

[geezer]

  P.S.forgot but on one of the other fourms there was a guy said he was using the yellow antifreeze dex with no problems next time i go to town will try to remember to pick up some.

[hydrotinkerer]

I'll look tomarrow when I get to work, I believe w/washer antifreeze is alcohol based. I believe any alcohol added to your gens would have to be added frequently due to evaporation. Better than the alternative(frozen, broken, bent generators). I don't know anything about it but would RV water tank antifreeze work? Is it the same as regular coolant?

[randy]

when I need to add fluid I've been adding 50/50 distilled & alcohol.

[Bob]

Kool !
well that helps SOME !
...I have a storm comeing in wensday or thursday and the temps are fairly low so I may get snow... man I sure hope not ! I got too much junk to move still !
HAHAHAHHA
Bob.......

[murf26]

I'm using 2oz. of isopropyl alcohol in my Mason jar.  Works like a charm and seems to enhance starting my car in the morning(we've had freezing temps here in western NC).

[hydrotinkerer]

I was fooling around with litmus paper today. I was looking to see what different PH levels some stuff I had around the shop. The scale for my paper is 1-14. 1 being acid and 14 a base.
Koh was 14
Naoh was 14
Isopropyl alcohol was 7
methyl alcohol was 7
w/washer fluid was 7(contains methanol)
green antifreeze was 11(contains electrolysis inhibitors)
muriatic acid was 1

My thinking was whatever your using for catalyst you don't want to use something the opposite PH to keep your gens from freezing. I didn't have any koolaid to test.

[Bob]

Hummm...
OK, good point...
so how does this PH thing work... is there a acid scale and then a anti-acid scale or what?
is there more than one PH type ? or is acid of any kind, still an acid ?
...
something I've played very little with is Chemistry,

Please elaberate , have no fear you'll teach me something because I know noting on the subject !
HAHAHAHHA
Bob........

[hydrotinkerer]

Bob
Everything has a PH level even the human body. The scale from 1-14. 1 (muriatic acid)is the most acidic and 14 (Koh)the most caustic. All the other stuff falls in between.

A good example would be your gen using koolaid for electrolite. I will give it a (4 on the scale)if you mix green coolant with it (11 on the scale) by mixing the two together they would negate each other out. They would in turn be neutral and not produce any gas in your gen.

One more example would be koolaid for catalyst(4 rating) and you add Isopropyl alcohol(7 rating)for cold weather resistance. The alcohol would just dilute the koolaid lowering production and not stopping it.

Hope that helps with how PH levels work.

[randy]

it went the other way for me, my cell was very stable, just added water through the summer months, then it started getting cold this fall, the cell "actually 6 washer cells" used about 2 cups of water every 100 miles so I figured I'd just start adding denatured alcohol when I needed fluid, with each application the amps climbed about 2 amps, by the time I had 5 cups in there it started dead cold pulling 32 amps where before the alcohol it started cold at 20 amps.

[hydrotinkerer]

From a PH level the production would be lower. I wonder if the alcohol affects the water tension affecting your production? Does the alcohol evaporate at a fast rate? I wonder if electrolites that are neutral or lean to the acidic side produce better? You still would not want acidic gas passed to the engine so I wouldn't want to try that. So many questions and in my case so little time.

To bad you don't have any litmus paper to test the gas coming out of your gen. I would be curious to see if the reading would be acidic. I'll test mine but they all have Naoh in them so their going to be caustic(base).

[Bob]

Bob
Everything has a PH level even the human body. The scale from 1-14. 1 (muriatic acid)is the most acidic and 14 (Koh)the most caustic. All the other stuff falls in between.

A good example would be your gen using koolaid for electrolite. I will give it a (4 on the scale)if you mix green coolant with it (11 on the scale) by mixing the two together they would negate each other out. They would in turn be neutral and not produce any gas in your gen.

One more example would be koolaid for catalyst(4 rating) and you add Isopropyl alcohol(7 rating)for cold weather resistance. The alcohol would just dilute the koolaid lowering production and not stopping it.

Hope that helps with how PH levels work.

I hate Quotes but sense I was slow in answering this I think its nessarry...<GRIN>
Hydrotinkerier:
You said that Muratic acid (sp) is the most Acidic and KOH the most Caustic.... ummm ok whats the diference between acidic and caustic ? acid desolves stuff , that I know already,
and something that is caustic will Kill ya... ( i read lables too!)  but is Caustic a form of acidic action ? are they closely related or at oppisit ends of the scale ?
if we are trying to rip water apart, what is better to do that to water, Acid  or caustic stuff ?
Acid will break stuff down into its smaller parts, isn't that what we are after ?
..as far as I know the KOH does NOTHING to the water but increase its conductivity... does it do any thing else ?
...
I understand what you mean by adding the wrong 2 things togather you could get netural.... kind'a like 7up and Coke.... BLEAH!!!!!! they cancle each other out and your left with water of a diferent sort!
....
so I defiantly don't want to neutralize my cell by adding something that may keep it from freezing but un-does the conductivity at the same time !
... As per Randys Trial test there with the Denatured Alcohol its obvious that it didn't neutralize the cell , and its such a small amount that it shouldn't delute it too much...
... but the big question is how fast will it evaporate when in use....
I suppose if his water consumption goes up he will know that a portion of that additional loss is the alcohol being evaporated, and burned in the engine.

[candyman55]

Would not Methanol be a better antifreeze than Alcohol for our generators. I am not sure of the percentage it would take to keep the water from freezing but Methanol electrolizes at a lower voltage than water. And makes more hydrogen it the process. I haven't tried this yet but I have a idea that by varying the percentage of water to methanol in the mix one may be able to control the percentage of Oxygen to Hydrogen produce. (Just a thought)

[hydrotinkerer]

This is going to open a can of worms.

Bases and acids are at opposite ends of the scale. I think an acid is a better conductor that is why it is used in auto batteries. I have never put an acid in a gen. but I have to ask why? Would not a tiny bit of acid vs a tiny bit of base? They are equally toxic in their own way and would destroy an engine given all things equal. Bob said muriatic acid produced like crazy. I have been using Naoh "base" because I was told to use it. I know of people using sodium citrate(acid), people here are using koolaid it is considered a acid because of ingredients. Nasa uses cobalt phosphate(contains Phosphoric acid, cobalt(2+) salt (2:3)). That is on the acidic side what do they know we don't.

Bases can be thought of as the chemical opposite of acids. A reaction between an acid and base is called neutralization. Bases and acids are seen as opposites because the effect of an acid is to increase the hydronium ion (H3O+) concentration in water, whereas bases reduce this concentration. I like to think of these differences in acid(eats metal) and base(corrodes metal).

Methanol is alcohol(methyl alcohol) I think it is a better choice over isopropyl alcohol.

[Bob]

I said Muratic Acid produces like crazy ?  I don't remember saying that !...
I might have turned on the cell with the acid in there just to see what it did though ! HAHAHAHA
...
...its a bitch when your memory gets do dim that you have to do everything twice before ya remember it! .... time to take more vitimans I guess ! HAHAHHAAH
 
Bob...

[candyman55]

I have tried citric acid it seems to loose something after a while. I only tried it once and can't remember in which generator design. The initial production was quite good as i remember. I have quite a bit left and may give it another go.

Citric Acid seems to be mild compared to most of the others. I think that if you were going to use them in our electrolizer you may want to be very careful. Strong Muriatic acid will eat your nylon connectors rather quickly. Not sure what material the packaging containers are made of but you may want to use it for washers and spacers.

[geezer]

Question  Would a hydrometer or antifreze tester be of any value testing koolaid & alcohol or KOH?

[charley]

I might have fixed our problem.  I mixed KOH and distilled water at 25% solution by weight(2.5 ounces koh 7.5 ounces distilled water) and turned the freezer down to 10 below Fahrenheit.  It didn't freeze.  It has been in the freezer for about 14 hours now.

Hope this helps.

Charley

[Bob]

that will work for guys with PWM Charley but not for guys without one....
that will draw way too many amps on my unit if I tried that...
...I tried KOH and creek water and it froze solid by the next morning, dunno what the freezer is set at but it is very cold !
....
Bob..........

[hg2]

I might have fixed our problem.  I mixed KOH and distilled water at 25% solution by weight(2.5 ounces koh 7.5 ounces distilled water) and turned the freezer down to 10 below Fahrenheit.  It didn't freeze.  It has been in the freezer for about 14 hours now.

Hope this helps.

Charley

  I tried the same thing only with 30% koh and freezer around O deg.F and it froze solid overnite.I put it in a 2 OZ plastic shot glass.

[charley]

Yeah Bob if you don't have a way to control the amps you will have a runnaway.  I'm also having trouble with my pwm getting really hot if I turn it above 20 amps.  I about smoked it the other day.  I'm going to try a really heavy duty rheastat I got from a friend the other day.  I don't know if it will work or not but I don't know why it won't.

As far as the KOH is concerned,  I just took it out of the freezer and it's still liquid.  The freezer is a 10 below.  I'll mix another batch when I get time.  Maybe I've got it stronger than I think but I don't think so.  I used a digital scale.

[charley]

I mixed another batch 1 oz koh 3 oz water and put it in the freezer.  It hasn't froze yet after about 5 hours so I don't know what I'm doing different. 

[Bob]

I do... your mixing the concentration so strong that it cannot be used !
at least not by me ! <GRIN>
 your mixing the concentration by weight... we go by teaspoons per gallon of water !
ours is so weak as compaired to yours its like water !
....
so KOH in the concentration that I CAN use freezes solid...  that will split my Hydroxy tank!
...
Humm gott'a be some way !
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Hydrotinkerer,

re.
...o bad you don't have any litmus paper to test the gas coming out of your gen. I would be curious to see if the reading would be acidic. I'll test mine but they all have Naoh in them so their going to be caustic(base)....

You could put some universal indicator in water and bubble gas though it. That will give you the Ph.

Manta

[hydrotinkerer]

The litmus was reasonable (reasonable to me is free). I forgot all about testing that. I'll add to my list and check that out. It is a little tedious because I have vinegar in the last bubbler and I don't want that giving a false reading.

[hg2]

  I saw a post on another form about a guy that lives in Alaska and he stated that he used 99% Isopropyl Alcohol at 20% volume and said it has worked down to 28 deg.F below zero.

  Another idea they had was using Isopropyl Alcohol at 20% volume in their bubblers so they wouldn't crack from freezing.

[Bob]

COOL Alaska Has my vote then ! but not acitone ! that will desolve my ABS pipes!
...20% Isorb--- whatever Alkihall <GRIN> is easy to come by... I shall pick up a gallon next time i am in walmart... ( if they got it !)
....
thank you for your Help that should cure the Freezing problem for me !
...
Bob.......

[hg2]

COOL Alaska Has my vote then ! but not acitone ! that will desolve my ABS pipes!
...20% Isorb--- whatever Alkihall <GRIN> is easy to come by... I shall pick up a gallon next time i am in walmart... ( if they got it !)
....
thank you for your Help that should cure the Freezing problem for me !
...
Bob.......

  Yeah Bob you're right that acetone will have an adverse effect on ABS,that thought never crossed my mind when I read it.If I remember right acetone is used in the ABS cleaner and does make it soft as soon as it's applied.

  I think it would be a good idea if I edited that part out so no one trys it and ruins their generator.


   Thanks for pointing that out.

                           Rusty

[Bob]

well, thats probly not nessarry as it may work fine with PVC pipe I dunno !
...Acitone is so mean that it will eat the handles off of puddy knifes left in a pan of acitone OVER NIGHT ! ....My Dad ans I use allot of Acitone in cleaning up after useing bondo or fiberglass
...its good stuff, but I'll pass on it as an antifreeze myself !
...
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

I'm looking at some pvc cleaner(purple) and acetone is one of the first four things listed that it contains.

[Bob]

Ugh... not a good idea to use acitone on PVC then is it !

...do what ya feel is nessarry I figure if the guy is that dumb he needs to have to replace his container! HAHAHAHAHHA < ahem.... sorry!>
...
Bob.........

[Tink]

Sorry I posted this somewhere else on this fourm. So here it is in the correct place:

I but some distilled water and 20% rubbing alcohol (99% isopropyl) in the freezer and the next day at 5 degrees I had a firm slush.

Tink

[hydrotinkerer]

I'd rather have slush than froze rock hard(broken container).

[hg2]

I'd rather have slush than froze rock hard(broken container).

  Gota agree there,slush is better than solid,it won't take long to thaw after the power's turned on.

[hydrotinkerer]

Now that I have thought about it. It would be my opinion that the water (for the most part)is what freezes first. That would make whatever electrolite/catalyst more concentrated. That would make your gen pull more amps thereby thawing it out that much faster. I thought I would also tell you guys it got really cold here last night. 45*F Brrrrr 

[Bob]

dat ain't  cold yet ! I still have Frozen Hail on the ground from about 4 days ago...because it hasn't been above freezeing here all week !   My shivers have been shivering !... I got more cats and dogs on my bed than any man should have to put up with ! but they are warm little monsters!...
I wonder if you can hook a heat pump to a box full of pussycats ?  now there's an idea!
...
man I wish I was moved off the mountian top right now ! its the bananna belt down at the ranch compaired to this !....
...
burr.... Fuss ...grumble....  complaine....
...
anyone want to by a nice lot with a year round creek ? HAHAHAHAHAHA
...
Bob........

[hg2]

  Bob sounds like you need to put the lawnmower and electrical generator experiments on the back burner and get that hydroxy house furnace going to avoid the three dog nights,at least till spring gets here!!!! HEHHEHHEH   Down here in Florida we can do that with just a couple of smacks booster running full blast and not have to use the hydroxy just the heat they generate !!!!!!! hahahaha.

[Tink]

Well, it was 9 degrees here last nite. It will get to -15 a few times this winter here in northern Arizona. So firm slush may not be the ticket. Last nite I did the same experiment (20%) but with denatured alochol and this morning at 0 degrees in the freezer no slush at all! Randy's right again. Go with the denatured alochol.
Tink

[Bob]

Tink: I've found that Crazy Fisherman to be fairly smart on a bunch of things, never sell that guy short ! HAHAHAHAH  I think that feller has more bulbs lit in his house than most of us could hope for !  <GRIN>
...
ya just need a way to check the alchol content of the water as time goes by  I think the denatured alchol will evaporate slowly... with use, if so the freeze protection will drop
.... I don't know , but maybe a Home brew wine makeing store will have a alchol meter that we could use ? .... like a Hydrometer ?
...
Bob........

[hg2]

  My wife makes wine(drinks her fair share too ha-ha) and I asked her if a hydrometer would work and she said that the hydrometer was only used to check the sugar content of the wine not the alcohol content.I guess one sure way would to occasionally draw a sample and put it in the freezer.

[hydrotinkerer]

Why wouldn't a refractometer work. Automotive use them for measuring antifreeze and battery acid. I think with the mix your going with then use a refractometer and record your readings. When the readings change you know to add your type of "antifreeze".

[hg2]

Why wouldn't a refractometer work. Automotive use them for measuring antifreeze and battery acid. I think with the mix your going with then use a refractometer and record your readings. When the readings change you know to add your type of "antifreeze".

  They might work but there're about $100 on e-bay.I think I'd go with the sample and freeze method.

[hydrotinkerer]

I would like one for work but didn't want to pay for it. I was hoping someone might have one.

[Tink]

Anyone,
As far as using alochol in any form to keep from freezing I think to actually get rid of the alochol you have to flame it. That is what I used to do in cooking to retain the flavor but get rid of the alochol content we burned it off with a flame. I don't plan on flaming my HHO generator but I'll be checking my mix periodically though just to be sure the alochol content doesn't disapear. I'm using 4 1/2 tespoons of KOH in a 1/2 gallon of 20 % denatured alochol and distilled water to get 19amps. Does that sound right?
Tink

[Solarz66]

 Hi, Guys, nb here, followed youse guy's from 'Hy Gen", I,m gonna
try this electrolyte solution this winter, as I started with a "Smack
GenII" 20plate cell.,, this past July,,,
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=ZcMww00to5w

,, Made a mix of the solution 2 days ago, put 1/2 cup in my frezzer
 at -5*F, and it's still liquid with a a little frost at the top of the
closed jar.

[Bob]

I used to have a Cheepie Anti-freeze tester cost about $3.00 if I remember right
it was a tiny seringe with floating balls in it... what ever ball floats tells ya the temp the anti-freeze is good for.... dunno what they work off of though , probly glycol
...a person might find something to check the alchol level in the autoparts store I dunno.
...
... I added Isorbical (rubbing Alchol) to my generator yesterday. in the bottle it comes in its 70% by solution... so I put in quite a bit, probly 2 to 3 cups worth, and added some to the bubbler as well sense mine mixes the bubbler with the generator half the time ( on shut down) ( no check-valve)
...
its been reaching freezeing every night this week but the Lemmonaid hasn't froze yet that I know of... but I wanted to be sure so I added some of that stuff...
we'll see what it does... its allot cheeper than denatured alchol...
...

Bob

[Bob]

Solarz66:
Welcome to Hydroxy Hut ! good to have ya with us !
...
I dunno what that Cell configuration is actually... I have no idea !
... but it is important to remember that a KOH solution strong enough to NOT FREEZE will draw a bunch of amps  and probably melt your hook up wires if you don't have some sort of Control over it. ( like a PWM) but be very careful if you have a PWM and that strong of a solution as you can fry the PWM in a hart-beat by adjusting it too far!
....
I know You gave the link to the Youtube video on what your cell is , but I am on a Dial-up
connection and those things take forever to load...
can you describe what the cell consists of Please ?
thanks !
...
Bob..........

[Solarz66]

 Bob, thank's for the welcome.
 The video is from "sm0ky40", showing his gen cell solution for
winter driving, which consists of backing soda, alchol, hydrogen
peroxide snd ditilled water.

 My "Smack Gen II" is 20, ss304, wall plates, that fit into a4"
acrylic tube.
 (I 'attached' 2 pictures of the cell)
   

[Bob]

AHHHH !
thank you for the pictures !
I see its almost identical to a smackbooster in plate design !
 I love the acrilic tube ...must have cost a fortune ! HAHAHHA
... thank you for showing us !  don't think I have ever seen that design before !...
...
Bob.........

[randy]

after forgetting about them for about a month OOPS I noticed these little cups in my freezer today, luckily I wrote the mixture concentrations of distilled white vinegar and water, at 10% it was not frozen but contained ice crystals=slush 20% and above showed no freezing at all, I went right out and made a mixture of 25% vinegar and distilled water for my improved test cell, it's been running all day at 12 amps, the vinegar and koolaid seem to work well together, the denatured alcohol seemed to neutralize the koolaid, I had to add a bunch more koolaid to get the amps back up, it seems to work the other way with the vinegar, less koolaid for the target amp draw, hope this helps someone.

[Bob]

YAH that will help Randy ! thank ya !
I didn't like the alkahol idea at all ...vinegar I can live with that !
...
Bob.........

[randy]

what the heck, with the lemonaid it freezes?? remixed at 50% vinegar, trying that, I'll let ya know.

[Bob]

Man thats weird...why would adding liminade in the water and vinegar make it freeze ?
...perhaps giveing something for the ice crystles to form on   man I dunno !
...
let us know what ya find out Randy cuz if it don't freeze I'll use that !
...
Bob...........

[janmarsh]

Seems like pure vinegar with a typical 5 to 8% acetic acid content freezes at approx. -2 degrees  C  (28F)
Watering down 50% may give little advantage as antifreeze.

[randy]

yeah, it gets even worse after use in a cell, back to the drawing board.

[randy]

I'm kinda thinking along the line of heat tape, just plug it in and forget it, that's probably what I'd do, drive off and drag an extension cord down the road. hahahahahahahaha

[janmarsh]

As a child, I remember my mother placing a few drops of glycerin into a saucer of water for the birds in our garden during the freezing weather.

 Yet to look into it.

[janmarsh]

FREEZING POINTS OF GLYCERIN-WATER SOLUTIONS.

% of Glycerin by weight.

20% = -5   degrees C

30% = -10 degrees C

40% = -17 degrees C

[hydrotinkerer]

Janmarsh,
      You wouldn't happen to know what the PH of glycerin is?

[janmarsh]

Uncertain at the moment.......sorry.     Something is bound to crop up & make it a bummer.

[randy]

OK ran down to Mallwart and got some of the blue wiper fluid, poured in test cell and added k-aid, will let it cook all day and see if it still doesn't freeze after that.

[randy]

UH OH things aren't looking promising, big bubbles are being made, I suspect it's the methyl alcohol being cooked off, we'll see.

[janmarsh]

Chemical formula for Glycerin is  C H (OH)
                                            3 5      3

I'm not sure whether it's composition may possibly be torn apart by the H & O separation process.

Anybody know a good chemist ? 

[janmarsh]

Randy,   Be optimistic ......... Could be causing Mega production.

[randy]

I'll find out, at last check it's only pulling 8 amps but making some serious gas.

[randy]

OK here's what I'm talking about, still only pulling 8 amps, temp is 146 deg. I'm noticing some discoloration on the plates.

might add another packet of k-aid and see if I can get the amps up a little more.

[randy]

something is diminishing rather quickly, I've only had the thing running for an hour and have added 2 cups more washer fluid?

[candyman55]

Randy when you add the washer fluid does the production pick up substantially?

[randy]

yes it does, I just dumped another pack of k-aid in there, wow scary production at 10 amps, before I dumped it in there I shut down the cell and lit some bubbles, OOPS!!! no bang but I might as well have lit a container of gasoline hehehe, I just put the lid on it to extinguish.

[randy]

Shoot; put up a makeshift table in front of my garage, going to do a LPM test, filled a cooler with water and was submerging a 2 liter bottle in it when it happened, crack SPLASH I'm wet from the naval down, hahahahaha cooooold sportin a turtleneck now, gotta go get dry stuff on.

[randy]

OK that's enough, I think the huge bubbles are caused by the methyl alcohol evacuating faster then the water, the sucker's down another cup, no leaks, I'm sure the alcohol is leaving the mixture in a hurry, I'll just add water for the rest of this test, at the end of this test I'll take a sample and try to freeze.

[Cowboy]

You guys are all worried about freezing...  Why?  When you turn your gen on, you create a heater.  It will melt any ice in there.  Granted, the expansion may break your unit, but that's only if you don't leave enough room.  Just leave room.    Or park in a heated garage.

[randy]

Trust me, It freezes where I'm at, arn't most cowboys from Texas?

[randy]

OK added 2 cups distilled water and another packet of k-aid, 142 deg. pulling just 10 amps.

WOW I turned it off for a second there.

[candyman55]

Randy,
I think that when you electrolize the methyl alcohol you are producing Hydrogen and co2 instead of hydrogen and oxygen. Depending on the mixture that would account for the bubbles not exploding like with koolaid and H2O only. It would be more of a pop, and the burning is the alcohol burning on top of the mixture.

The Alcohol electrolizes at a lower voltage than water, about 2/3rds. less. this could account for the increased production. but with the mixture using 30% alcohol you are cutting you o2 production by 1/3rd and increasing your hydrogen production by about 1/2. I think that this could create a more stable mixture, but when mixed in the manifold with O2 could possibly give the same or better results.

I am gonna trun around now in case I have to take a whipping.  

[randy]

no whippin here, I haven't a clue what's goin on, just checked it a second ago, output's goin through the roof, yet the amps are still at 10. freaky to say the least. I'm running this thing on a 10 amp charger that kicked out on the original cell after a short time, this modified cell hasn't kicked it out yet, ran it all day yesterday and most of today,

[randy]

must be running out of booze, production's starting to slow, I've added 4 cups of water now just to keep it at the level where I started.

[Cowboy]

Oddly enough, I was born in TX, then moved to NorCal/Oregon when just a baby, then back to lower NorCal, now I'm in OK. 

But, I think you should put your gen in the freezer overnight, then hook it up to electricity tomorrow and see how long it takes to thaw.  I'm going to guess at less than a minute.

[randy]

I'm determined to find an antifreeze that'll work, I've read about cells that froze and blew up when activated, the freezing fluid will bend plates and crack containers, I don't want that.

[Tink]

Randy,
I got one of those 6' heat tapes that plugs in the wall and ran an extension cord to it. I wraped it around the HHO genny and then covered that with that thin insulation that has shinny metal surface like tin foil. Then taped that with black electrical tape with the plug end coming out one side that sticks nicely out from under my hood. I plug it in before going to bed and in the morning it is a nice 60 degrees. I have it set to pull 15amps at that temp. This is safe and even give you a head start in the AM. It doesn't pull much juice either which is important since I'm totally on Solar Power.
Cowboy,
Here in AZ we'll get a few mornings around -15 degrees and a lot in the single digit above 0 degrees. I didn't do well with the denatured alochol at 20%. I gave up on it.
Tink

[Bob]

Well So far It don't look like anything is going to work worh a darn...!
...
Cowboy:
  I have a ABS sewer-pipe container another words stright sides.. if that electrolite freezes it will split the Pipe wide open the length of the container!
even if I was to weld up a steel container after about 4 freezes and thaws it would eventually rupture the container...
if it were a Conical chaped container and had room at the top then yah it could freeze and rise up a little with no ill effects... but that won't happen in a Dry cell or a sewer pipe container ...it will split it wide open the first solid freeze... in fact it may not even have to freeze solid... just a couple inches in the top will bust it easily
..
Tinks Heat tape idea is a good one... and you'ed be in good shape driveing along in sub-zero temps as long as its operateing... but unless you have a plug in at work your going to have problems!
....
...
A retractable extension cord  would be the thing to mount under the bumper, you know the ones at Harbor frieght with a truble light on them ?
that way you can pull up grab the cord and plug it in and walk away !
...
its a thought anyway !
...
Bob.......

[randy]

yeah I don't think the washer fluid is going to work either, turned really dark, looks like it fouled the cell up, on to the next experiment, glycerine, heard that somewhere recently hahahaha never know till someone tries it, gotta go flush out that cell and run my mix of good old k-aid to get it spotless again.

[randy]

onteresting, when I dumped the cell container it looked like a layer of coffee grounds in the bottom, guess I won't be running washer fluid anytime soon.

[Bob]

with all that shop equipment ya got there Randy fire up the steam cleaner and blast that sell real good !...
HAHAHAHAHA
Bob........

[randy]

I would but my washer would destroy it.

[Bob]

Chicken ! where's your sense of adventure !
as long as it ain't real hot  so it will melt the insulators !... turn off the burner !
HAHAHAHAH
 bet it will get that brown coffee color off there !
....
Bob...

[randy]

OK the winterized washer fluid failed after use in my test cell, sample froze solid. heading down to get some glycerin.

[Cowboy]

I have some de-icer washing fluid I just found.  I don't know if it's what you just tried, but it took the ice off my windshield this morning with no effort.  Ice didn't even reform.

[randy]

If it has alcohol it doesn't work with my cells anyway, just added 25% glycerin, seems to play well with my mix of vinegar, k-aid, distilled water, no noticable change in amp draw, with the washer fluid amp draw went down.

[randy]

OK cell is fully warmed, pulling 12 amps, no adverse effects noticed YET.

[randy]

gas check "BOOM" good gas, hahahahahah, gonna let it run a little while longer, get a sample of fluid for freeze test.

[Manta]

One of the important differences from the experimenters point of view is that they each attack metals in a different way.  This was (is) very important in the bio-diesel world as it effects the parts of your fuel pump.

Manta

[janmarsh]

I've copied & pasted the following paragraph. Anyone aware of what this suggests will happen  ?
           

 Glycerin is a potential feedstock for hydrogen production because one mol of glycerin can produce up to four mols of hydrogen. However, less attention has been given for the production of hydrogen from glycerin. The objective of this study is to develop, test and characterize promising catalysts for hydrogen generation from steam reforming of glycerin.

[Manta]

As glycerine is a byproduct of the biodiesel reaction it would be interesting to find a use for the tubs that are accumulating by my shed.
But you do need energy to make steam.  So what would be the net gain,  if any ?

Manta

[randy]

so far the glycerine has had no visible effect on the test cell, one big bonus in my eyes is that there is no countereaction with my preferred electrolyte, as far as more production it doesn't seem to have bettered or worsened the output, have a sample in the freezer now, just put a very small amount in a paper cup, should have results within the hour.

[janmarsh]

Manta,  A World glut of the stuff because of this.
 You pee on your exhaust pipe..... What do you get ?

[Cowboy]

Manta,  A World glut of the stuff because of this.
 You pee on your exhaust pipe..... What do you get ?

Rust

[randy]

OK sample should have frozen by now but hasn't, pointed my infared temp gun at the fliud in cup, 19 deg. I think we've got a winner, I got the stuff I used at a health food & vitamin shop, It's called NOW personal care vegetable glycerin 100% pure, there's a website on the bottle, URL is www.nowfoods.com I'm really liking these results. you'll find it under body bath and personal care. creams oils & clay listing.

[janmarsh]

More pasted babble......



Increasing biodiesel production has resulted in a glut of glycerin that has led to a precipitous drop in market prices. In this study, the use of glycerin as a biorenewable substrate for hydrogen production, using a steam reforming process, has been evaluated. Production of hydrogen from glycerin is environmentally friendly because it adds value to this byproduct generated from biodiesel plants. The study focuses on nickel-based catalysts with MgO, CeO2, and TiO2 supports. Catalysts were characterized with thermogravimetric analysis and X-ray diffraction techniques. Maximum hydrogen yield was obtained at 650 °C with MgO supported catalysts, which corresponds to 4 mol of H2 out of 7 mol of stoichiometric maximum.

[randy]

great all I gotta do is get my cells running 650 deg C and I should have great production hahahahahaha

[randy]

Well so much for my purdy new test cell container from Mallwart, it's developing cracks all over, probably from the heat. the glycerin is still being good, thanks for the suggestion janmarsh, I believe it's the answer.

[randy]

OK now the sample in the freezer is showing some slush, but way better then a hard freeze.

[Bob]

So at what concentration is that Randy ?
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Janmarsh,

Sounds like a job for someone with free energy.  I hope all you guys in the Mojave dessert are thinking about this and working on your mirrors.

Manta

[Bob]

Speaking of Mirrors... One time in the dead of winter in Vinton.Ca. about 25miles north of the nevada border where we drove to Reno every day for work... out waterpipes froze solid
and we were left without any water for about 3 days...  I had a heat tape on it but it evedently burnt out and quit working... anyway..I was desperate to thaw the silly thng out
and the pipe was thawed from the ground up but the pipe came out of a pored concrete slab...
and I couldn't heat it enough to get it to thaw out......after running out of propane in my propane torch and the pump quit working on my old gas blow torch... I was left to wondering how to get the thing thawed out... the sun was out and very intense but in the shade it was a good 11 degrees !....
It so happened that the wife and I had purchased about 5 boxes of mirror tiles and were going to put them on the bathroom wall... so I got the idea of sticking the mirrors on the ground and focuseing the sunlight on the cement slab...
after putting out all the mirrors and re ameing them about every 15 minutes I noticed the snow on the concrete starting to melt... I went in the house and got a cup of coffee and warmed up a bit and then went and re amed the mirrors again... this went on for about 2 hours and then Woosh I finally got water to flow again...
After turning it off , re hooking it and hooking up the NEW heat tape I gathered up the mirrors and went in the house to warm up... the wife came home and wanted to know how I got it thawed out and I took her out to the concrete slab that was still warm to the touch and she said You did that with those mirrors ? I said Yep... but I think I'm sun burnt !
HAHAHAHAH
....
it realy is amazeing how much heat you can get just by doubleing the sunlight then trippleing it , then quadroopleing it etc,etc....and with 50 mirrors all pointed on the same spot it was too hot to hold your hand in there ! HAHAHHA
...never thought I'ed make a solar heater in that method but despret times calls for despret measures ! HAHAHAHHA
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Bob,

I can believe it.  Solar is THE way to go if you get lots of sun.  The outside air temp doesn't matter as long as the thing you are heating is insulated from the cold air.
Over here we are only seeing the sun once in every eight or nine days. As I look out now the cloud cover  is a little brighter in one place;  that's it. Pretty miserable really. When I retire (soon) I hope to move out to an island in the Aegean.  Lots of sun there.

Manta

[Bob]

I have a great big 13' satilite dish and I alwayse wondered what that thing would do if I covered it in mirror mylar and put a 2 gal tank painted with high heat black paint on it and tracked the sun.... I bet that would make enough steam to run lots of goodies !
heat the house and a bunch of rocks in the day time and let them radiate the heat at night for the house... run a steam generator... not to mention heat a swimming pool ! HAHAHHAHA
... thats almost as good as the pile of mulch with the black PVC pipe layered in it and left to decompose.... free heat all winter ! HAHAHAHA
....
Bob.........

[randy]

Bob the mixture is 25% glycerin

[randy]

Ok test test test, started cell up at 5:30 this morning, going to run all day, so far I haven't seen any junk forming, this is good, after a good long run "all day" I'll take another sample and see if any of the antifreeze properties have been lost. also I upped the ratio of glycerin to 30% this mixture has no vinegar, just distilled water, glycerin, and Koolaid.

[Manta]

Bob,

You've got about 14 sqr yard of reflector there.  So you should be good for about 10 Kwatt of heat into your focus point.
Track the sun with that thing and add a pipe or two and a little pump and you can be heat-rich.

Manta

[janmarsh]

Janmarsh,

Sounds like a job for someone with free energy.  I hope all you guys in the Mojave dessert are thinking about this and working on your mirrors.

Manta

Manta,       You may be familiar with the French  Solar Furnace..........Wikipedia - Solar Furnace.


                                                    5430 Degrees F        Jesus.

[Manta]

Janmarch,

I take it you mean the Odeillo in the Pyrannes. (sic)

I also watched an item that is running on the BBC by James May showing a solar furnace run by a group in,  I think,  New Mexico that they are using to crack hydrogen for the making of petrol from CO2.  The demo shows it burning through a mild steel plate in about eight seconds.  Pretty impressive.

In California they are using parabolic mirrors to run Stirling engines.  Santa Barbara I think.

Solar is the way to go if you get enough sun.

Manta

[randy]

Well I'm SOL here, if it aint raining it's fixing to.

[Bob]

25%... thats 1/4 Glysern... thats a bunch ! 30% is even more !
...
I'ed need a quart of Glysern for my cell...where do you get that much ? drug stores sell it in pints at $5.00 a bottle
 !
HEHEHE
Bob..........

[Bob]

Yah.. Randy lives where the people grow webs between their toes like ducks do cuz its so wet!
....I lived north of where he does about 30 years ago in Port Tounsand Wa.... and I remember 3 sunny days... the rest were rainin'
it even snowed up there on me... something it hadn't done for 50 some odd years...
when I moved to Florida it snowed on me there too something it hasn't done there in 100 years
... so I gave up and moved to the mountians and at 5000ft I get snow all the time  HAHAHA
...just as well ... it follows me where ever I go anyway ! HA!
...
Bob........

[Tink]

You should all come to sunny Arizona if yo want sun. we didn't have enough sun to charge my battery bank once for almost 3 days and I paniced and ran the generator. Turns out I didn't have to since the sun came up the next day and I'd been fine. That Smack Booster sitting under my hood where the battery used to be gets up to 80 degrees by the time I get off work at 3pm. That's when it had gone down to 17 degrees overnite. It is a different story when the sun doesn't shine. Even when it gets to 15 degrees below 0 it will go up to over 50 degrees above 0 in the afternoon. I love it.
Tink

[charley]

Hey Bob,

A couple issues back in popular mechanics they had a little article on a guy who took his old satelite dish and made it into a hot dog cooker by covering it with a bunch of little mirrors.  He said it would cook a hot dog in a few seconds!  How's that for redneck engineering?

Charley

[Bob]

HAHHA yah a small one would do great for that... but my big 13 ft' deep dish would incenerate it in seconds ! I'm sure of that !...
the problem with big dishes like that is the wind... and if I cover it with something and plug all those holes in the screen-like skin of the dish it will catch the wind real bad
and probly blow over ! up rooting the post !
...I think it would be need to have it heating a big trench of Rocks all day and then use the hot rocks at night to heat the house ... but that will take a SUN-tracking  device...
which shouldn't be too hard to come up with sense it has a motorized skew anyway.
...
I saw a fella that made a solar oven out of cardboard boxes and tin foil...
and it worked very well indeed !
...
Also a "HOT BOX" is realy Invaulable in the winter time if you have Sunlight....
at the ranch I will have sunlight , here I don't, too many trees on the neighbors property!
... I made one while I lived in Vinton,Ca..some 25 to 30 years ago and I got 110 degree hot air out of it durning the day and I closed it off each night.... worked great !
it was a 4'x8' piece of plywood with Alumimun trailer skirting as collectors on the plywood bent into a deep "V" shape and nailed to the board , painted flat black covered with Hog wire to support the Plastic cover it worked very well and heated the house durning the day
where I used to have to have a fire in the stove to keep the chill off, after the Hot box I didn't have to ... !
... these things are worth their weight in gold as far as I am concerned... I will have a bunch when I get sunlight  once again ! AHHAHAHAHAHAH
...
Bob.....
 

[charley]

That's pretty cool.

By the way the guy used a big dish and had it rigged to follow the sun.

Charley

[hg2]

  Only on the hydroxy hut forum where the thread can go from protection from freezing to hotdog cookers.HEHEHEHEH.Nobody can say we're not versatile that's for sure.hahahahahaha

[Bob]

HAHAHA got that right !
...
Bob......