Real Time Scanning (OBD-II)

[H²+O]

I was talking with my brother about rigging up a new truck i bought with HHO and was going to put a few sensers in it so i could control the flow of A/F Ratio and temp as well as some other things. O and rig up a PWM for the single EFI Injector. then i got to thinking about how all those sencers were already in place and that a computer was already set up to control and read all the info i wanted and more!

So i started researching it on the good old WWW and found this; and bought(cheapest one i could find for US$39 after shipping lol)

http://www.lightinthebox.com/OBD2-Scanner-ELM327-USB---Plastic--SZC1970-_p88341.html


Now the problem is that my new truck is a
1991 S-10 2.5L (this isn't My actual truck but it is the same truck)


and OBD-II Scanners only work form 1996 on. my new truck has an OBD-I Scanner which the whole thing about OBD-II is that it is standardized across all automobile manufacturers (Meaning that what i have has it's own individual way that the code needs to be read).
I'm not even sure if i will be able to retrieve real-time data form this. Let's just say that i can though, My brother and his friend have found several programs that can manipulate the ECM therefor manipulating the way your car responds to the data it receives form the sensors. You can adjust the A/F when you HHO Production is turned on!!!

If this works like i hope (if not on this truck then i will sell it and get a 96+) then all the timing and A/F can be adjusted from a laptop in the cab! combine that with some sensors that you put in your HHO Production system 'heat, voltage, amp's, water level, so on' everything can be monitored and most of it controlled right form the cab while you are driving!!

No More guessing.

Steve

[Bob]

Great idea Steve ! go for it !
 I believe most OBDII scanners are backward compatible at least with the American model vehicles...
 I have a 95 Toyota and it is a breed all its own when it comes to OBD code readings
...
I am skeptical that you can completely control the fuel air ratio from the cab simply because they made the computer system in the fuel injection engines to where they cannot be CHANGED by the average person... although you may be able to change the numbers on the screen and all that it is possible that you can only go so far before it defaults to a setting that you do not want....
 getting it Not to default may take replacing chips , but without it I think the best you can get is just a few percentage points before it will trigger a default setting and run with it weather you want that or not....and the default setting is quite rich... not one you want to run for good gas mileage !
 keep track of your changes and a good running record of your gas mileage as that is the only way to tell if the system  pulls a "default" on you... some will tell you in the code read out but NOT ALL !
if you change the setting and your gas mileage drops by 2 to 5mpg you can be asured it went into default setting so you have to reset the whole thing and start over... and this time not go that far.
... A guy I know has the complete control of his laptop in the cab.... like you are suggesting it set him back a couple of thousand bucks if you count the lap top and the soft ware both.
...
Bob...

[H²+O]

well i canceled that order which was from china (20-30 day shipping) and bought it of Amazon.com for $30 and it's going to delivered by 3pm today!

Thanks for the info on the OBDII being backwards compatible, super good to know!! I'll have to ask my bro what programs he has for changing the actual ECM Programing. but we'll see how it does Saturday before i go to work and then Sunday and Monday on my days off. (i have several other vehicles that i can test it on as well)(have myself a quality junkyard that i've been cleaning up lol)

I figure it will only be a couple hundred for the whole setup for just the engine monitoring.
Can't wait till i have the time and money to build the HHO system!!!!

[H²+O]

Got that sensor Saturday! too bad the installation disk was shattered! lol.. i gave it to my bro and his friend so they can configure it. but i need to buy a $5 converter for the OBD-II to my truck..

[H²+O]

well i've used that ELM327 Interface scanner on several vehicles now and it's a pretty slick setup. but the real time data is ALL over the place! i can't get a steady read out on the 3 OBD-II vehicles i've tried! (98 Durango, 05 Focus, 00 contour)
 i was thinking to myself about the 'taking control of the ECU and changing the values' thought and have decided that i need more knowledge in the programming department. so i'm going to go a different rout if i can get the real time data to work correctly... I'm going to run a feed through the O2 sensor so i can see a digital readout on a gage and be able to flick a switch and take control of the voltage (thus telling the computer that it has plenty of fuel in the mix).
 now thinking about that i come to the conclusion that i will need to be able to control the inflow of HHO, which will then gain some pressure if i'm cutting back(danger without the correct arrestors). maybe have several reserve cells, controlled by the pressure, low=add a cell producing, high=turn a cell off. rather than having a hose running right into the air intake that lets just as much as the generator can produce into the intake, get a EFI for gaseous fuels.
=
a fuel system that is 100% controllable.

i'll still be able to monitor everything but the only thing i actually need to control i'll be able to..
this is going to take some work... and some producing generators lol

steve

[Bob]

Steve...
 what you were describing is a good method for Running 100% Hydroxy gas and no gasoline at all.
having several generators you may well need the ability to cut some of them off  too much HHO is not a good thing either! LOL
...
but as a supplement to gasoline you can pump in as much as you can make at this stage of the game....
at least till you get upwards to 8 to 10LPM then you'll start having run-away problems
...
so for now , don't worry about how much your cells will be giving the engine.... it will run just fine on it.... if you get some Pre-ignition you will want to retard the ignition a small amount. but other than that you should be just fine.
....
sorry to hear that the readings are "All over the place"  that makes it really hard to get any useful info from it !
 ... Keep after it you'll get it!
...
Bob.......

[H²+O]

I was doing some math, 2.5L engine uses 1.25L (because 1 round is 'air' entering, second is exhaust leaving? not sure..) of 'air' per Revolution. So if i'm running at 3500 RPM (most efficient output for my 91 truck) i'm sucking in 4375 L of 'air' per minute! now HHO can be run very lean but even at 100:1 that is still 44LPM. Is that right?

too tired to think lol, i'm going to the junk yard in 6 hours, have a huge list for 6 vehicles. i actually don't have any cars that don't run, which is a first for me.

steve

[Bob]

LOL ! YES Steve its late !
 You are making the same mistake others constantly make when calculating how Much HHO they need to run a car's engine...
  First off , a I.C. engine is basically a AIR PUMP... it moves HUGE amounts of air all the time..."IF the THROTTLE IS WIDE OPEN".....
.... Second and MOST important even though the Cubic inch DISPLACEMENT of the engine is available, it is very seldom ever all used.... (that's extremely important to understand!) the THROTTLE controls how much of that Total Displacement is USED...  so it is extremely hard if not impossible to accurately calculate how much HHO you need to run the engine....
 the way you started out is one way IF you run the engine at FULL throttle... simply take the engine displacement and  figure a 14:1 to as lean as 20:1 and you get the LPM you need to run the Engine at Full throttle on HHO ONLY.... with No gasoline at all.
 However, you hardly ever run the engine at Full throttle , I don't anyway... so I don't need all that HHO ....
 most of the time my throttle is about 1/4 open when cruising down a normal rolling hill road, as much as HALF open when accelerating  and as little as 1/16th when cruising on the flat...
...
without going deep into it again ( I have calculated it at length in different threads) its easier to say that for my 2.5Liter Toyota PU. I need 15LPM to 20LPM to go 100% HHO and no gasoline at all.
... this Will NOT be enough for FULL throttle operation !
 it will only be enough for Normal driving. ..... But it will be HHO alone and NO GASOLINE AT ALL !
....
 I am confident in my calculations enough to say that if I had 15 to 20LPM  I could drive my Pickup on nothing but Hydroxy gas...
...
this does NOT mean that it would be at TOP preformance by any means! say I'm driving along and come to a long slow hill.... the truck may well start needing more HHO than I am producing and start bucking because its running too lean... I'll either have to back out of the throttle and slow down or
it will run so lean as to cause engine damage....  but I can live with that as long as I don't have to pay over $4.00 a gallon for gasoline !  I'll just go slower than I usually go is all. or add another cell so I can make More HHO and go faster ! <GRIN>
....
So what amount is "Optimum" for the average car ?  about 2LPM per Liter of engine displacement !
 so if you have a 2.5Liter engine then 5LPM is about perfect for the engine when using as a "Suppliment to gasoline".......
  That said and done.... you will NOT see any improvement in Miles per gallon in that car unless you reduce the gasoline going to the engine...(technically you might see some slight improvement because the HHO makes the gasoline burn up more efficiently/completely. but the real gas mileage is in reducing   the now OVERLY Rich mixture going into the engine.
 believe it or not gas mileage can be improved up to a staggering 75MPG doing this from 12MPG to 75MPG
can be done.... even on a large V8.  so its NOT a pipe dream...
its just hard to obtain... reducing the gasoline making the engine run LEAN on gasoline isn't very easy to do now days.... but when done correctly the MPG can be really improved a great deal.
...
Bob....

[Bob]

I think the most obvious SHOCK that comes to people is that the realization that in the cylinder of the engine  there comes a wide range of explosions... their not ALL big huge bangs... some are little bangs
and some are medium sized bangs.... its the throttle that decides these, and when and where....
you can have a Huge explosion on cyl no.1 and a split second later have a small explosion on cylinder no.4.... and that is NORMAL operation !... even in a V-8 also the same happens in a 2 stroke engine
big and small explosions all the time happen in the engine.
 sense we do Not have to have the largest explosion possable in every cylinder at every firing, it really changes how you start to think about Econemy and fuel mileage.
...
back in the 1950's there was a trick going around that was supposed to save you lots of gasmileage !
it was a piece of 2x4 cut to the right size and screwed to the floor Under the gas peddle... so the gas peddle couldn't be pressed down all the way....
 strangely enough the simple "FIX" worked extremely well.... although acceleration was slow gas mileage was vastly improved.... God help you if you had to get out of the way of someone in a hurry though! because you Couldn't!
 this "Fix" stopped the engine from making BIG EXPLOSIONS in the cylinders ever... and only allowed medium to small explosions to take place... obviously...
  Today we look back at that as being a silly way to get better gas mileage but it did work!
...
  Adding HHO to the fuel air mix going into the engine does indeed make a bigger BANG !  by quite a bit !... the preformance increase of even 2LPM on my 2.5Liter truck was easy to tell from the start!
the engine ran smoother and accelerated faster.... the increase in MPG was only about 2mpg when I first added the HHO generator... from 22mpg to around 25mpg somewhere in that area.
However when I leaned out the Fuel ( by using a Matt valve, and MAF box adjustment) the gas mileage went way up to over 40MPG ! 
....the only modification I did was to put a "tent-pole" piece of tubing over the Oxygen sensor to stop it from sensing the exhaust....  and I never have got a red light on the dash saying my Oxygen sensor isn't working either!  I am guessing because it is still getting warm in-place where it should be!...
...
 I have never put an OBD-1 or OBD-2 scanner on the truck to see what it says but it may well have pushed the Computer to go into default settings sense that very first day of covering the sensor...
if so that's fine with me because I have been getting over 40MPG sense then  with or without the HHO generator....(I attribute the gas mileage increase to the leaning out of the fuel... and I'm fairly certain I would be getting 45 to 50MPG with a decent HHO generator in there!
... but at the moment I have the Hydroxy cell off the truck and on the bench!
...
fwiw
Bob....

[H²+O]

So i downloaded a different program, several of them... and finally i found one that works 100%! all the reading that the car gives out!! it's totally sweet! all i have to do is work with the EFI or the O2 sensor (would changing the voltage on the O2 sensor change the fuel feed? seeing as how it sends a reading to 'adjust' the fuel intake,). I can't do the Matt valve because my truck doesn't have a MAF. but i just picked up a 2000 ford Contur v6 2.5 for a good deal (ran the codes with my computer before i bought it) and the only problems with it is it need a transmission speed sensor and it needed the spark plugs and wires changed! 154k miles, it had the original wires on there!!!!
there is way less room in the engine compartment but it sure  does seam like the better option to go with for the HHO because of all the sensors that it has. only problem i see coming is that it has 6 injectors and 3 O2 sensors. so that being the area i need to regulate the fuel from it might be a little bit more complicated... but i'm sure with enough money (and knowledge) I can get this working.
i just need to be able to run some kind of limiter so that it takes the current reading and then reduces fuel a % at different points of Load on the engine (there is a sensor for that lol) (and depending on the production of the Generator, Have it set to adjust the HHO injection). Recording all the data so that we can discover actual numbers for hho/gasoline/air.

that's a cool trick! lol. but from what you said i'd say it's like poshing a scooter, first couple have to be powerful, then they get less and less to keep the speed.

I read like 2 years ago on here that someone (wasn't it LTCFISHER ?) got his 12mpg Ford to get the 72mpg? He was using a much older truck (like my 85 dodge W250) but he didn't need any computer mods! just some brain power and engineering to get it to run lean on gas and make up for it in hho.

sorry for asking for the explanation about the air use, I've seen the places where you've explained it out quite will, but i figured that i didn't want to go searching the whole site for it. lol laziness setting in.

I have to get a better paying job! i'm barely making it by right now even with my stuff on the side.. Anyone know of a job in the oil fields? i know there are plenty of them but i'd rather get in with a personal recommendation for myself and for the company.. need to do something where i can work my butt  off for a year or 2 and come out of it sitting pretty.

steve

[H²+O]

it might seam like I'm going at this backwards with the HHO, working on the car before actually building a Generator, but i figure that i want to get the car getting the best MPG I can without using anything extra THEN I'll add HHO and actually see the increase in MPG (like bob's matt valve was giving him 10+MPG increase without the HHO) then he added the HHO and got 40mpg)

what i really want to do is take a bottle of Hydrogen and a bottle of Oxygen form Norco or some place, and start an engine on it. put the engine under X load and see how long it takes to run out of fuel (obviously not big bottles). Then see how much gasoline it takes to run under the same load for the exact same amount of time.
Do some simple math and you have your conversion! do this on several different sized engines and then you have a graph, so you know for every CI or CC you divide [MPG by [speed + times start&stop]] = how much HHO you need per mile/min to travel your regular rout/driving style.

just a thought,

Steve

[Bob]

Steve...
 you almost got it right ....about my truck and the HHO setup and MPG I got... but not quite...
there is a suttle difference...
 after all the mods and then removing the HHO generator for the winter... I had to re adjust the Matt valve again (and it took 2 or 3 driving tests to get it right too I might add)...once that was accomplished I took a MPG test again and I was getting a constant 40mpg WITHOUT the HHO generator....
which is simply amazing if you think about it.... However the truck was running a bit TOO LEAN as it would stagger slightly coming up the long hill from town... so I re adjusted the "matt valve" a bit richer once again and the MPG changed only slightly to 39MPG or so but for all intents and purposes it STILL GETS 40MPG all the time now....if i keep it below 70mph ! LOL
....
so from the start of 22~24MPG  I went to 40MPG  without the HHO generator....
I was getting very close to 45MPG with the HHO generator but by then the generator was acting up badly and its output dropped to about 1/4LPM...
...
Now,... I think I can get an easy 50 MPG out of the truck by adding a 2LPM cell to it...  I certainly can't get any more MPG out of the truck than I'm getting now without the risk of dammage to the engine....but when you ADD HHO you can remove gasoline at the same time.
  What I will do is put on a new cell again and then take a LPM reading of it... and then a MPG reading..... then try adjusting the Matt-Valve again to get as Lean as I can before it starts staggering on the hills... in that order... because the information I will get from the tests will guide my steps...
 so when I add the 2LPM "Randy cell" Again... I can lean out the engine just a bit more than it is right now....

 As Randy said in the other thread this evening, his truck was running poorly with the Generator out of it... and he had to adjust the carb to give it more gas so he could drive it again without the generator in it.... that is when you know you have it about perfect... about as lean as you dare go
....
  Nothing wrong with getting the Leanness down pat FIRST.... its just as necessary as the generator!
 there is no set order that you have to do this stuff in.... just do it ALL and don't give up half way through ! LOL
...
  Personally , if I were looking for an automobile to put a cell in I would look for a Carberated engine with very little smog stuff on it.... like as OLD a vehicle as I could afford to get !
... my 1968 Dodge P.U. is a real good canadate but it gets about 15mpg and I never drive it because of that.... its a great canadate for 100% HHO but it has a 350CID V-8 in it.... and it would take around 20~50LPM to make it go on HHO alone... and I can't make 5LPM yet! LOL so I'll stick with a small engine .... HAHAHHA
...
Bob.......

[H²+O]

I have to say that the OBD-II scanner and program (the one that works lol) are the coolest things ever! I don't feel like going outside right now and doing some screen shots but i will and there is so much info that i didn't think about.

But the main thing about my question earlyer about how much air goes through an engine.. Well one of the buttons on this tool tells you some actual consumption, which answers my questions about engine consumption that bob has explained, but in detail.

The consumption on AIR was 1.5LB per minute. Which = 535.19 liters per minute
                                         ^ this is probably where i am wrong   
(something is wrong here because when i calculated it earlier it came out to 130 lpm......) but anyway let's say it's what i got earlier and i'll post the actual reading in the morning. so 130lpm @ 34:1 = 3.82LPM HHO for average every day driving at 0-45MPH!!!!

maybe i should post these things before i'm falling asleep standing up lol.

Steve

[Bob]

KOOL
I wish I had that setup for my truck but I don't have a lap top...
... might invest in one though for that stuff ! LOL
....
Bob.......

[H²+O]

Alright, so i gave back the inverter to the friend i was borrowing it from so no more data while driving down the road . (until i break down and spend the $15 to get on lol)..
So i decided to just do it while it was sitting there after i had warmed up the engine. i'm putting some pictures in here of the actual reading from the car as well.

Idling: :814 RPM = .43 lb/min air intake
   :1500 RPM = .60
   :2000 RPM = .84
   :2600 RPM = 1.30 (I was doing increments of 500rpm from the dash but the computer said this so i went with the computer)
   :3100 RPM = 1.60
   :3600 RPM = 2.07
   :4000 RPM = 2.50
   :4557 RPM = 11.22 (this is where the limiter kicks in so i just pushed my foot all the way to the floor for 10 seconds till it bounced around and hit this peak)
Now what you do is multiply the lb/min by 13.35345 to get the CFM, then you multiply the CFM by 28.32 to get the LPM

so the bottem line is that if you are sitting there idling with no load, (i just realized that there is a load sensor in there! i'll have to redo this soon lol) well in the picture at idle it says 29% load. So you are sitting there at 29% load doing :814 RPM sucking in .43 lb/min of air, meaning you are using 153LPM then take into account that you only need a 34:1 A/F and you get the calculation that at idle you need 4.5lpm HHo to idle the car!! And 27.81LPM to do everything you want, 100% HHO!!


alright so lets figure out if that is plausible;
A generator that is 2hp will put out 800 steady rated watt's.

the car i am using is a "2000 Ford Contour SE 2.5-liter 170-hp, 130amp alternator"

to get 28LPM you need 280amps @ 14.7volts = 4116watt

taking the 4116 and dividing it by the efficacy of a generator (the only thing i really have to go off for
efficacy), you get 10.29hp needed to produce the needed LPM of HHO.

this all boils down to the fact that it should be more than easy to produce enough HHO from the vehicle to power it with no issues!!

steve