new cell

[crb]

Need a design that will put out more than 1/4 lpm, 
What I have just tried is 11 3x6 plates +-+-+- etc/
I'm using a 12v battery on the bench fully charged.
The cell with just plain tap water is drawing 25amps @ 12.33v
It's only putting out about 1/4 lpm.
Any Idea"s?
I would think that it should put out a little more that that.
crb

[randy]

what's the plate spacing?, are the plates truly flat?, with it pulling 25 amps with just tap water I'd think there's an area somewhere with much closer surfaces, I had the same problem not long ago.

[Bob]

Seriously... drawing 25 amps on just plane tap water is very strange... perhaps your tap water is really high in alkily or something.... try using distilled water and see what it draws.... if it only draws about 5 to 10 amps that's about right for real close plate spacing... more than that ...i'ed havt'a say something is wrong somewhere.
....
do a continuity test with the cell first off.... when its dry and setting on a non conductive surface
use the Highest OHM reading setting you have , your looking for Mili-ohms! there should be absoultly NO CONTINUITY at all.... it sounds to me like you have a very large current leak somewhere due to continuity in the cell.
even 2 or 3 ohms will screw up a Hydroxy cell... No continuity is allowed!...
this sounds easy but many of the insulators used will give some continuity... a car inner-tube certainly will... most DARK colored gasket material will give some continuity, and only gets worse when it gets wet!
...
My last cell drew 20amps and gave only 1/4LPM.... but the plate spacing was real wide , about 1/4"
...
I expected better performance from the cell than that, but that is what I got....go figure!
...
 A "Randy Cell MK1" will make 2LPM at 20 amps.... that is documented by at least 3 people
yes their rather hard to assemble but Randy came up with another"stacking method" that makes them easier to assemble than the old way....
...
 You could get 14 wall switch plate cover plates and try to stack them 1/16" apart
...My old "Smack booster" used the neutral plate idea  which allowed the use of wall switch plate covers on nilyon rods as insulators... it worked and worked well ... but my threaded plastic rods broke in about 2 months of use, they got brittle with age and snapped !
i never did find the niylon bolts at the hardware store the plans called for... I believe you can still DL the plans for that cell too.... he also sells them , but their easy to build
...( I also used KOH in my "smack-booster"...that may be why the plastic got brittle with age.)
I am fairly confident that a strong concentration of lemon-aid would work in the "Smack booster"
....
the Typical DRY cell which I believe is what you have, will put out good as well, about 1.5 to 2LPM at 20~25 amps.... and if your not getting that  then something is definitely wrong.
...
problems that plague a Dry cell are many and varied... from not being able to get the gas out of the cell, to leaks , to gasket material problems, over heating and of course, not giving the cell enough amps! ( which is in MHO the number 1 cause for low LPM from Dry cells!)
...
Stacking the plates of a cell is all important ! you can use the Neutral plate method,or parallel hookup to the plates.... both work, I prefure the Parallel method, but as I said "BOTH WORK, and work well"   if you use the neutral plate method on your next cell, limit the number of plates to 5 or 6 plates and keep the plate spacing as close as possible. powering only the end plates and leaving the plates between them unconnected to anything, i.e.neutral. where guys run into problems is the over all width of the cell... because they use real wide plate spacing... the power just cannot travel that far without great losses... so keep the plate spacing small and it'll work fine.
...
 Parallel Hookup to me is by far the best but it is also HARDER to accomplish with close plate spacing
in a parallel hookup you can have many plates, as many as you have power to run. but be sure to keep your APSI (amps per square inch)(figuring only one side of each plate for the area)to between .3 and .5 amps per square inch...(amps total/plate area total in inches=APSI).(55sqr inches/20amps=0.36 APSI)
 this will assure that you get a good output from the cell.
if your parallel cell has A real LOW APSI, which could be the case here , as I haven't figured it out for you, you could have an abnormally LOW LPM output as well.
...
hope that helps
...
Bob....



 

[Bob]

CRB:
 I just calculated 3"x6"=18"ea. x11= 198 sqr inches
20amps/198=0.10101010 APSI
....
that's your problem !

either Reduce plate area by removing plates to get the APSI up
or raise the AMPS

18ea x 5= 90sqr total
20/90=.222222APSI.... this would only double your current output to 1/2LPM (est.)
...
198sqr in. total and 60amps
60/198=0.30303030.......or 1.25LPM from what your getting now (est.)

...
8 plates of 18sqrin.=144sqrin total
40amps/144=.27777 APSI
...
so as you can see what you'll need to do is remove plates and raise amps BOTH to get the cell to produce better.

5 plates at 18 ea=90
40amps /90=0.4444 APSI    this should give you 2LPM +~-

that's what I'd do I think.... reduce to 5 plates and up the electrolyte to get 40 amps
should get you 2LPM for as long as your bench battery can hold up!

...
 Hope that helps !
Bob....

[crb]

.020-.025 plate spacing, No continuity dry, I'll try some distilled water today.

crb

[Bob]

On the bright side.... with plate spacing as close as that you should have no trouble getting 50 to 60 amps draw.... by adding electrolyte to the water !
...
 as I see it, you have 2 choices, up the amperage
or...
reduce plate area drastically to get to the 0.3 to 0.5 APSI area
 or you could do a combination of both.
....
 strange as it may be, having allot of plate area does not mean allot of output...
having allot of amps ALONE does not mean allot of output either.
it takes the right amount of each to achieve allot of output
...
having close plate spacing also does not mean allot of output... but it helps Drastically!
because it is one of the 3 things that is needed for high output...
1. plate area
2. Amps to do the work
3. enough continuity in the electrolyte/water to do the work
 each of these things are dependent upon the others... meaning you won't be able to Draw enough amperage if your plate AREA is real low, no matter how much electrolyte you add.
which rules out enough amps to do the work.
....
 Plate area sets the amount of AMPERAGE you have to have in order to get the APSI high enough to have high output... so you have to have a certain amount of plate area, not too much not too little.
... in the same way Amperage effects the workings of the cell, too little amperage and the output is low, too much and the cell will over heat, although high output is almost assured with a moderate amount of plate area, you can't have just 2 plates and achieve really large output it takes mutipal plates.... although in THEORY if the 2 plates were large enough you could achieve the same output as with a multi-plated cell, but the plates would be unreasonably large, so by all intents and purposes it takes a multi-plated cell.
 All the plates in the world will do you little good if you cannot get the Electric power to transfer from plate to plate through the water.... that is where the electrolyte comes in at.
the electrolyte sets the amount of amps the cell can draw, not the "plate area".... the PLATE Area just makes that task EASIER.
it is far easier to draw 20 amps through plane water with many plates at a small plate gap than it is to draw 20 amps through a few plates with a large plate gap., in fact as you saw in many cases a small plate gap may or may not require electrolyte at all.... in most cases however adding just a pinch of Lemon aid or KOH will make a Huge increase in the ability to draw more amperage. and output will sky-rocket !
...
Under Normal circumstances even with very close plate spacing, the use of
 "Distilled-Demineralized"water will only draw a few amps by itself... maybe as much as 4~5 amps... HOWEVER, this ability to draw amperage is due to the cells PLATE AREA, and if you have allot of plate area you may find you do not need any electrolyte at all to draw 20 amps....But because of the large plate area the output at that 20 amps will be quite small..... the cell "WANTS 3 to 4 times that amount!"in order to operate at top output.
....
 Your Cell , CRB... Sounds like a very good one.  don't give up on it !
tune it to best output by taking a LPM reading at the Amperage you wish to use on it... then remove a plate or two, and do the same test again, and again, and keep doing that till you notice the LPM output start to go down, then back up and put the previous plates back on... then your cell will be tuned for max output at the given amperage.
....
 The "Randy Cell Mk1" used 11 washers of 2" in diam.... that's actually a very small amount of plate area all totaled... I seam to remember 55 sqr.in. total.... that's about 1/4 of your cell !
 that cell used 20 amps , your cell fed with the same amount would be around 80 amps !
at a rough guess...
...
 If you have an AC/DC Arc welder and feel like testing the LPM output at 80 amps/DC to confirm my figures Please do ! .... and your output should be about 8LPM !!!!!!!!
...
...
For what its worth....you probably already know all that anyway, I'm just re-affirming it is all.
...
Bob.....



 

[crb]

The plate are pretty flat.  The spacing is also fairly consistant .020-.025
Tried distilled water, the amperage went down to about 3-4 amps, didn't let it get very warm.
It is a plate in a dip type of cell.  Not a dry type cell.
I will be completely covering the sides of the cell, with hopes of no current leakage (trying to figure that one out)
I'm using 4" ABS pipe.
crb

[Bob]

Ok that is as I suspected... you have hard water there ! heheheheheh
... wrapping the sides,(as long as you leave the ends open) may well help stop current leakage around the sides of the plates.... but I am not sure that is a good idea. simply because the magnetic field goes in all directions from a charged plate, and its that magnetic field that breaks the molecules apart, you may lower production by doing that.
  a cell in a dip is far superior than a dry cell I think, although that is just an opinion and I have no figures to back that preference... <GRIN>
...
using Distilled water and the amp draw dropped to 3~5 amps.... that is a good sign !
now add your Lemonaid or KOH or what ever you choose to raise the amperage up to 20amps and check your LPM output once again.... it should be quite a bit higher than it was like about 3 times higher
.... that should put you at 3/4 LPM for 20 amps... if not have no fear.... it'll all come out in the wash cycle ! ....
...
we still have the over abundant plate area to amp problem to deal with. that should fix the output completely.
 either reduce plate area (if your like me you don't want to do that after going to all that work to get them there in the first place!), so the only other alternative is to up the amperage. just to get the APSI up where it can do some productive work.
the problem here is HOW much Amperage can you afford to give it ? if you have the standard altenator in your car of say 65 amps you need at least 35 to 40 amps to run the car  in all weather conditions.... lights, heater, fans,injectors... etc,etc, all take their toll on the amps.
so at the very best you can only get 30 amps from your standard alternator, and still keep the battery charged up for starting the engine ! ....
..... that's not very much !
 so unless your willing to go out and buy a 100 ~ 300 amp alternator and put it in place of your old standard alternator... your going to have to reduce plate area. because you don't have the amps to play with....
 On the bench you have even less options.... you need something to work with , and a single battery just doesn't give you much.
...
What kind of car are you planning on putting this cell in anyway CRB
... that might help some ...
...
Bob.........

[crb]

Using my test mule, 5,  2 x 3.75 plates,  using your method of counting only 1 side of plate = 7.5 sq in.
and using roebic drain cleaner (naoh) I really don't want to use naoh. 
The best I have been able to get is 3/4 liter in two minutes.  That's with my bench battery 12.3 volts,
drawing 15 amps.

It seems like everybody in world gets close to 1 lpm drawing 10-15 amps. Is this my dilemma?

Oh, I will be putting this in my 85 mustang 5.0.
I know this is not the best test vehicle, but it's what I have.

I wish I had a 4 cyl. pickup.

crb

[Bob]

ok on the test mule.... 5 plates at 2"x 3.75"...

2 x 3.75= 7.5   TIMES 5 plates= 37.5 sqr inches....
15/37.5=0.4 APSI.... so your in the ball park on APSI  GOOD !
....
whats the plate spacing on the Mule ? is it the same as the other or wider ?
...
in this case I think we have too little plate area.... the randy cell has 55sqr inches I believe ( 11 2" washers minus a 1/2" hole in the center and minus about 1/2" for the holes on each plate)
...
if you add 3 more plates to that cell for a total of 8 plates
thats 7.5 x8 =60 sqr inches
15/60=0.25 APSI.... fairly low....
raise the amps to 20 amps  and that gives us...
20/60=0.33333APSI, on the low side but should be fairly productive...

its actually ODD that the mule puts out so little ! it should do better than that I'ed think
... like 3/4LPM....  not in 2 minutes.... I find that very strange!
....

Remember, too little of plate area is just as bad on production as too much plate area
it has to be just the right amount in order to do the work its designed to do !
....
Yah I don't like naoh at all.... your plates are probably dirty by now from using it
in fact that in itself could be ALL your problems! SERIOUSLY !
.... about all you can do now is take the cells apart now and buff the plates on a wire wheel to get back to the metal and then re assemble them
...or perhaps an acid bath... but you have to eliminate the possibility of the plates being dirty ....
.... I suspect that your bench battery is lieing to you.... and the meter
more than likely the battery is not giving you 15 amps for 1 full minute
I had that problem once I was using the battery out of my old dodge truck and the output when I first hooked it up seamed ok but as time went on it very slowly dropped off and it was REALLY hard to tell that it was doing that... I finally borrowed my Dads charger and that made a huge difference ! the cell was working just fine but my battery and small charger just could not keep up ! even though the battery was strong enough to start the v8 in the truck it could not handle the 20~ 30 amps I was using on the bench !
.... more than anything else I think that is your biggest problem.
....
I too was plagued with constant low LPM output too and it was indeed the power I was using...
if you can test that cell from your car by using jumper cables from the battery with the engine running  you should see a big increase in output...if I am right...
the power dropping off real fast would no doubt account for all the low readings you've been getting
....
I know its bad news, but I think you will find that is the major problem now
...
 I had a VTOM on my battery as well and a trickle charger going all the time but it was indeed not enough amperage... it said I was getting 20 amps but when I hooked it to the truck it not only pegged my amp meter on the truck but when I re adjusted the electrolyte it started bubbling big bubbles ! something I had not seen up to that point! just the little misty bubbles...
... its a process of elimination go through your setup and eliminate any possible problems one by one starting with the cell, check continuity with it dry AGAIN ! don't assume it is still the way you left it a while back..... things change !
...
hope that helps !
...yes thats a big motor to put a single cell on but any cell is better than none... and you should have no problems tuning the engine to make the most of the Cell either ! and that's 90% of the problem !
with that big engine I hope you get the bigger cell going with all the plates on it and put out 5 to 8LPM ! that should push your MPG up to near 75MPG!  ... well, we can dream anyway !   but Higher than your getting now for certain ! LOL
...
Bob....


 

[crb]

Well I tried 5 3 x 6 plates -+-+- with my bench battery.  It's a very good battery.
I let it draw 45 amps for a couple of minutes with lemon juice,
the best it would do 1/2 liter in a minute.  Pretty rotten, POS
I'm starting to get pissed.

I think 10-15 amps and 1lpm is just a pipe dream or I need a completly
different design.

crb

[Bob]

well, I havt'a admit I think I'd be getting Pissed at this point too  GEEZ !
...
by chance can the plates be painted with a clear paint ? have you buffed them with a wire wheel yet?
...
 its acting like you have no plate area at all.... or the metal you are using has a high resistance to it....
...
  stop what your doing and build a "Randy cell Mk1" and test it just like you have been doing with the other cells ...if you don't get 2LPM at 20 amps there is something drastically wrong somewhere!
... heck we already know that... "there is something drastically WRONG!" they don't friggin' work!
...but what the heck is it?
...
 What are you using to measure your AMPS with ?   exactly
I have a few Auto amp gauges that register 1/2 the amps actually used...their old and from the 1950's
 perhaps this is the case here ?
 what wire size are you using to get the power to the cell ? a single strand of #12 electricle wire ain't going to cut it.. 4 strands per side might be enough... but i'm guessing here.
 I use #8 wire from the hardware store and made my connection loops out of the wire itself and soldered them up...  they have held up well for years now and handled over 40 amps at times
...
 saying its a good battery isn't good enough , sorry but you have to eliminate it as a possable problem.... chances are you are correct and it is a good battery.... but is it discharged a bit?
 a battery on a small charger doesn't really work very well, it works to a certain extent, but no where like the battery and altenator in the car.
 the altenator alone can power the cell  so it gives the battery all the power it needs to KEEP UP with the demand.... a 10 or 15 amp charger on the bench can't do that.... it would be lucky to handle 5 amps continiously....  if your charger is thermially protected you can hook it directly to the cell and see what I mean... it will throw its internal circuit breaker and stop working at about 10 amps if its a 15 amp charger, you could fry your charger so don't do that...<grin> its very hard on a charger when you do that!
...
  IF we assume that the electrical power is fine and can handle 30 amps continuesly for say 10 minutes before it starts dropping.... (I KNOW it cannot handle it over night so don't try it!)
 ... that means that we have to look else where for the fault...
 plate spacing is close, RIGHT ? on the Mule cell ? and no continuity through the cell at all when its dry... then it has to be the PLATES....
 it usually is a for gone conclusion that if your DRAWING say 20 amps that the plates are in contact with the electrolyte... that is OBVIOUS !  however it is possable that the plates are coated enough to stop production.
...
 let me assure you that I have seen 2LPM at 20 amps with my home made "Randy cells" I made 3 of them and they all put out purdy much the same....
 I tested them with a fairly weak 12vdc battery and a 30 amp charger.... the output was good at first but would drop off about 45 seconds into the LPM test... after each test I had to let the battery re-charge.... which took about 2 hrs.
...
 Every cell I have made except the "Smack Booster" and the "Randy cell mk1" has and I admit FAILED
due to extreamly LOW Output !   why ?  I have NO idea to be completely honnest!
 I made many out of plane steel because of the lack of Stainless steel and they usually only gave me about 1/4LPM at 20 amps...no matter the plate area high or low in plate area didn't seam to change a thing!
....
  Question, is your Stainless steel plates Magnetic at all ? will a magnet stick to them or be drawn to them even a little ?
...
 I made a cell here recently using stainless steel wall switch plate covers... used wide spacing and only got 1/4LPM at 20 amps... Abimisial output !
I THOUGHT it was because of the plate spacing... it may well be something else I am not aware of
as you are using very close to the same size plates and have close spacing and are getting the same results ! !!!!!!!
  WHY ?
 that doesn't make sense !
...
I'm thinking  !
...Bob...


 

[Bob]

I've been thinking about the Low Output on your cells CRB.... and it just don't sound right !
...
 I think the plates are coated with something now....its the only thing I can think of !
 that means take the cells apart again and buff them real good with a wire wheel or hand sand each one with sand paper  and then try not to handle them that much after words, pick them up by their edges not on the flat sides.... you don't want to put finger prints on them !
...
NAOH is probably your biggest problem... although I can't be positive because other people have used that and had no problems at all ... but sense I am GUESSING now I'ed guess that the NAOH is part of the problem...  if you don't have Lemon-aid  then you might try straight vinegar.... it might help clean up the cell too!
...
5 3"x6" plates, -+-+-  should work great ! that's 90square inches

45 amps /90in. =.5 APSI    that should net you 2LPM Plus a bit!  (guessing at 2.5LPM)
...
the results you are getting are way low, which makes me think your amp meter is not reading the amps right.... can you check it by referencing it with a VTOM capable of high amps?
or can you get another amp meter and swap it out ? and see if it reads the same ?
...at this stage I wouldn't be surprised at all if you said it was reading 45 amps and it was actually 10~15 amps when you checked it by another meter!
 it is acting UNDERPOWERED.... are the wires your using able to handle the amps without getting warm ?  if their getting warm they are reducing the power getting to the cell!
....
   SERIOUSLY... its acting Underpowered... I don't care what the meters say <grin>
...
you have to have a good power-source to test the cells lacking one try using the Mustang your planing on using it on.... you need to set it up anyway, with a relay and curcuit breakers.... and don't forget the bubbler....
....
 Your probably using the battery out of the mustang on the bench, but you need its ALTENATOR
more than you do its battery ! LOL !
or use one of the other vehicles you have there as the power source  all you need is a pare of good jumper cables to reach the cell with so You can do your LPM test
...
I'd try that first, if there is no change then you are going to have to clean the plates
...
wish I could be of more help
if you can't get it to work Please let me know ! its possible we are missing something here
if so, I want to know what the heck is going on ! LOL !
...
Bob...

[crb]

Using 5 - 3 x 6 plates +nnn- (the magnet falls off the plate) I was able to get 1 liter in 1 min 20 sec. 
Too bad it was at 20 amps.  I figure a .27 apsi.  Is this right?

I am using a Balkamp 700-1704 clamp-on ammeter

I tested it with 4 plates at 30amps yielding  1 liter in 1 min 15 sec. .57 apsi?  Still pretty lousy!!

crb

[Bob]

 5 3"x6"plates make 90 square inches of plate area.(18sqr.in. each)
taking the amps used (20) and dividing the plate sqr inches gives you the amps per square inch
 so 20/90=0.22222 APSI.... fairly LOW actually
....however the output is still less than 1LPM
4 plates of 3"x6"=18x4= 72 sqr inches
30/72=0.4166 APSI....  and it took over a minute to get 1 liter ?
...
 that just doesn't make sense !  you SHOULD be getting over 2LPM from the last test setup
...
Your Amp meter Should be about the best Money can buy there Congrats on that... but it doesn't mean its accurate ... take a reading on a light bulb or something you can use ohms law to get the amps from to double check... more than likely its more accurate than anything used to manufacture things with ! LOL !
... that doesn't leave much else to be wrong... is the plate spacing still .020"~.025"
.... what is that anyway about 1/32" ?
...or is it closer to 1/4" in spacing... i seam to remember you saying it was .20 to .25 ... and to me .25 of an inch is 1/4 inch and that is really WIDE plate spacing if that is the case.... the output almost matches my latest cell with 1/4" spacing ... lets understand exactly what you have in spacing shall we I'm confuzed now ... I thought we were talking about real close spacing like 2 100's of an inch apart thats close... but in decimal I think that's .020 .... tenths, hundreds, thousandths, etc,etc.
...
if your plate spacing is close to 1/4" and not near 1/32" or 1/64" .... that's the problem
(or so I say in fine print here LOL)
....
I've been up all night and not thinking real clear here hehehehhe
...
magnet falls off the plate so chances are the metal in the plates is good and not causing you undo resistance....
....
using the neutral plate design idea to make it easier to test should equate to be a close fascimily of the same thing... but it doesn't always work out that way... large plate spacing  changes the results from Parallel to neutral plate hookup...
...
so clarify the plate spacing for me one more time please do you mean .20"~.25" or .020"~.025" ?
...
Bob.....

[randy]

It might be in the build configuration, I'm not sure how you've assembled the cell but if the plate spacing is .025" and somewhere on the build, threaded rod with nuts insulators and so forth has closer then .025" then it'd be trying to pull most of the amps at that point. I had that problem with my current build, I had glued small spacers to the plates to keep even spacing, the glue I used was conductive, the dead giveaway of this problem is it'll pull heavy amps with very little electrolyte added to the water, in my case I went from a tiny pinch to pull 20 amps to 3 whole packets, guessing around 1000% difference here. hahahaha take a close look at your connections, if their closer then the plate spacing, that might be the problem. just guessing here.

[crb]

It is not 1/4 inch spacing.  It is .020-.025 inch.  Less than 1/32".
I cleaned the heck out of the plates this morning. wire wheel.

Put it back together this morning +nnn-,  mixed the electrolyte to be drawing as close to 10 amps as I could and fired it up.
It was drawing 9.0amps @ 12.5 volts on the bench 1 liter in 3 min and 10 sec.
put it on the car 10.4amps at 13.8volts.  1 liter in 2 min and 45 sec.
pretty S***ty.

crb

[Bob]

CRB can you post a pic or 3 of the cell please !
...Randy has a very good point... and what he is saying is very true, I did the same thing one time
I used S.S. washers under the plates and over the plates in a Parallel config and only had one nut
to tighten the whole stack down on each side... spacing was great but the output was Really poor
because the electrons were POOLING at the washers and not spreading out to the rest of the plates because they were the closest point on the plate stack.... I just as well could have left the plates out because it wasn't using them hardly at all... output was like 1/8 LPM...horrable output
then it dawned on me what was going on .... I took the washers out but then had no way to ground the one side or the other and had to scrap the whole idea of stacking that way.
...
 I think Randy's Method of stacking with the large hole on the one side to go around the nut is about the best method...it allows for one half nut on each plate to hold the plate down and leaves no LOW or High spots  for the electrons to POOL at...
.... can you draw out or show us how your stacking the plates CRB ?
...
the poblem with that method of stacking with my plates was that they are all concaved plates and they touch at the cornors, unless I put an insulator strip on each plate on each cornor that method won't work.... normal flat plates 3"x6" would be perfect for that method! but you have to leave out the washers completely, just tighten the half nuts down on the plates and then cover with a insulator
...A very ingenious method Randy came up with !  but because its only held down on one side they do need insulator spacers on all 4 cornors.... just be sure your glue is NON conductive! LOL
...
Bob......

   

[crb]

Bob,
It's tough enough to get a message on here for me, If I don't haul-ass and get
it typed down it times me out and I have to start all over again, that has happened
twice so far. 

I'll try to figure out how to get a picture on here no promises.

crb

[randy]

Wow, that's odd, I've started to post something, got distracted, came back to it an hour or more later, still there?? CRB, type it on a notepad on your desktop, then copy and paste it to this forum.

[Manta]

Hi all,  Back from vacation.

crb,  if you can manage a picture it will help a lot.

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

I"ll attempt It, no promises.
crb

[Bob]

Are you on Dial up CRB ?  some of the ISP providers have like a 30sec or 60 sec disconnect time out
if your idle that long they will Kick you off....
 its rude and aggravating ! 
....
 I know of no timeout setting here on the site....period... nothing I have control over anyway
Pair network is our Host and I am sure they do not disconnect because of idle time... I have been idle over an hour before and not disconnected.... but when we were on dial up I got disconnected many many times for being IDLE.... and typing some times is considered being idle because the site does not send the characters to the boards until you hit send!.... so its real easy to get kicked on dial up....
broad band/cable modem people some times do that as well.... it gives them more room for others by kicking some people off !
....
  I have been thinking about this problem for days and I think Randy probably hit the nail on the head
... I suspect that there is "Low spots" in each plate... not because they are not flat but because they are touching a washer, in direct contact with it , so electrically the electrons will pool around the washer...and avoid the plate because the electricity will "always take the easiest path"
... lets face it ...its fairly hard to stack plates real close without using something conductive
but if its conductive it may well be causing "Low spots"....
  but having the APSI as High as you have had it should have INDEED made them work regardless of washers.... at least I THINK SO !  lol .... like filling each plate with electrons , and not leaving any room for anything else.....
 but electrons being lazy will wait their turn to take the easiest way out !
...
...
by the way...
 Picture size was increased a while back so you guys wouldn't have such a hard time re sizing them
....
Bob........

[Bob]

Hay Manta !
glad to have ya back !
hope your vacation was a good one !
 we've been getting rain here for the last 4 days or so... today was the first sun shine I've seen in a week so I went out and started to make another Pulse jet.... new design with 2 exhaust pipes and one intake .... dunno if it'll work but it SHOULD ! LOL
...
Bob.

[Manta]

Bob,

Thanks,  it went quite well.  But it did remind me that I am getting a bit old for clambering around volcanoes.

Time to settle back into the garden and the workshop.

All my plants survived the week.

Talking of plants,  take a look at this news item.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/%E2%80%98exploding%E2%80%99-watermelons-perplex-chinese-farmers.html

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

ACK !
 exploding water millons !
gadzooks ! that would give my deer hart attacks ! LOL
...if that weren't bad enough they went on to say....
"The government is increasingly anxious about food safety issues after a string of scandals that include melamine-tainted milk, meat that 'glows in the dark’, steroid-laced pork and poisonous beansprouts."
...
meat that "Glows in the dark " is just WRONNNNNG !
...sounds like China has its hands full... a point where REGULATIONS are a good thing !
unfortunately they have none and everyone is out for the fast buck !   ya can't win for the loosing!
...
Bob......

[crb]

Bob,
I don't have a clue on how I can do the picture thing.
Only thing I can do would be to Email the pic to you.

crb

[Bob]

CRB:
 OK that's fine.... no problem there at all
send your pic's to "bob@hydroxyhut.com"...... (address is the stuff between the quotes)
....
I've done this many times for many people, so don't feel like a dummy because you can't figure it out
its a very COMMON PROBLEM ! <grin>
...
so ... yah send me the pic's.... more than 1 is fine too... up to about 10 at a time is ok....  more than that makes the DL rather long at times....
....
so if you have to send them at more than one setting that's fine too
....
 "THIS GOES FOR THE REST OF YOU GUYS TOO, IF YOU WANT ME TO POST A PIC FOR YA , JUST SEND IT AND TELL ME WHERE YA WANT ME TO POST IT !"
...
 It's the least I can do for people who are trying to help us all out... not a problem !
...
Bob....

[crb]

Tried to email pic no luck I'll try again.

Sooo, if I assume correctly, If I pump 15 amps into a cell, and if I have a .4-.5 apsi,
Using 36 sq. in. of plate area 3 3x6 plates +-+, what kind of output should I be able to get.
I am still lucky to get 1/4 liter in 2 minutes.

crb

[Manta]

Assuming you still have the nominal 0.025" spacing you mentioned before,  this is strange indeed.

Just wondering if you have a leak somewhere ?

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Way back on my earlier postings on the Randy cell... I calculated the output of cells using the Randy cell as a starting point....
 this in itself may be the wrong approach because the Randy cell puts out better than so many other cells its not funny... but your plate spacing is close to that of the Randy cell  so that is your closest example of what it SHOULD be doing...
 (God help me if I'm wrong here!_)  I THINK the plate area of the Randy cell is 55sqr inches...going from memory.... if memory is wrong then this all could be way off!
 55sqr.in. and it puts out 2LPM  using 20 amps.
Guessing what its output would be using 15 amps... probably 1.5LPM
so 1.5/55=.0272 Liters per sqr inch
so your 36sqr.in. should put out a max of (0.0272x36=0.9792) 0.9792 LPM
so just shy of 1LPM
and your getting about 1/10th that....
...
sense this is NOT a fair estimate of the output lets lower it to .5LPM for those 3 plates you have... and that should be close enough to actuality.
...
but your not taking measurements in the PER MINUTE .... your going to 2 minutes because output is so low.... its safe to say your getting about 1/8 LPM at best
... and that ain't very much !
....

 the question is WHY !

and your the only one there to see it being done... I can't tell from here! LOL
...check
 heating of the wires.... or anything that would reduce the amps getting to the cell
 leaks in the tubing to catch the HHO... in doing your LPM test (1 L bottle in a bucket?)
 (if your using a store bought LPM gauge.... that's your problem right there!)
 I still suspect your Power is the problem.... the battery is probably only filtering
the charger a small amount and although your Fluke Amp meter should tell you the exact amount of amps being used  it may not be in this case...
a Hydroxy cell acts like a Capacitor when connected to power.... a capacitor that leaks allot.... so it shows resistance as well as capacitance.... your meter may only be working on the resistance portion of the readings.... and most all amp meters need to be IN-LINE not clip on's.... so forgive me if I am skeptical !<grin>
....
Bob....

[crb]

manta,
You might be correct on the leak factor.  Will attempt to remedy that next week,
going to Reno.

Bob,
I have two types of ampmeter, in-line and clamp-on both indicate about equal.

I've used my jumper cables directly to the plates and my normal 10 gage wire
with crimp on ends, same output.

I'd like to see .5 lpm at least I would be going in the right direction.

crb

[Bob]

Ok well good for you you are narrowing it down  slowly but surely.... when you finally do find it you'll be kicking yourself in the butt saying why didn't I notice that before !
... HAHAHA!
...
 Reno ! that's only about 189 miles away from here ! We lived there for a good 15 to 20 years
we lived in Fernley Nv. just east of Reno, and drove in every day for work and we lived north west of Reno in Vinton,ca.  that was a long commute, about 45miles one way
... its a nice town, I've lived in worse places... one thing you don't do there is piss off the Cops ! LOL !  they will take you down ! ... their police force is small so they have to be extra tough and they will not take any lip from anyone....not like California at all ! LOL
...I've never ran afowl of the law over there but I read the paper and saw many that did !
...I've considered moving back there many times but I doubt I ever will.... 3" of ice on the freeway in the wintertime ...turns me off.
...
  I'm re-building a bridge over the creek next to the house and I need to get back at it...
using Oak logs and lots of Uumph ! HAHAHAHAHA
...
Bob.........

[randy]

crb; yesterday I dialed in my cell, just for kicks I assembled with 3 plates, amps were good but output was dismal, I ended up with 5 plates, but that's with an amp limiter, I'm thinking you might need to dial in that cell the way I did, it should work.

[Bob]

Randy...
 the method of your "Dialing in" on the cell...wasit like as follows ....?
...
remove all but 3 plates hook up the power and set the electrolyte to 20amps
check the LPM reading
...
remove the cell and add another plate, re set the electrolyte to 20 amps
check the LPM reading to see if it went up or down from the last reading...(it went up so add another plate)
...
remove the cell again add another plate, re set the electrolyte to 20 amps
check the LPM reading again to see if it went up or down (it went up again so add another plate)
...
Remove the cell add another plate to check the LPM output and see if it went up or down...(it went down so Remove that last plate.)
and your done.

or did you just leave the Electrolyte extra Strong and use the 21 amp amp limiter in line each time...
I'd think that would have been easiest.  <grin>
...
was that the step by step method ? (so others know how to do it !)
...

and have you got a MPG reading on that truck with the new cell in there and the modified carb ?
or even a rough guess ?

Bob....

[randy]

No Bob, I started with too many plates with the limiter and a couple cups of extra strong electrolyte in a tupperware bowl, removed plates one at a time and checked amp draw, the amps stayed the same until I got to 4 plates, the amps dropped to 18, so I reassembled the cell with 5 plates, put it back into it's container and poured the electrolyte back in I captured when I drained it, even dumped the hot mix in there, added more k-aid until the amps were maxed as per limiter, but before I reassembled it I completely dismantled it and examined the plates and insulators, tried it with 3 plates without the limiter in the hot mix, drew good amps but visually output was low, and it heated up the electrolyte quickly.

[Bob]

HAHA ooook as long as it works ! HAHAHA!
odd that 3 plates heated the water quickly... I wonder whats up with that ?
...
Bob...

[crb]

I've tried every plate configuration you can think of.  3, 5, 7
Thought sealing the edges of the plates might be the cure.  Not any difference.
I'm trying to stay as close to 10-15 amps as I can for testing.
I am using lemon juice as E-lyte.
The only time I got even close to what I am looking for was with the naoh.
Even with that It was pulling 30 amps. Not acceptable for 1lpm.

crb

[Bob]

 I bet its the lemon-juice as your electrolyte !
there are sugars in natural lemon-juice  they will coat the plates as fast as you turn them on !
once the plates are coated you'll play heck getting any meaningful output from the cell
....
 try a 100% load of vinegar see what you get from it ...probably about the same or less
but leave it soak OVERNIGHT in an attempt to clean up the plates and then dump it the next day and flush with distilled water... then use Lemon-AID Koolaid  un sweetened , just dump the packets into the distilled de-mineralized water, and watch the amps come up...Don't dump it on the plates.. you can pre mix it if you want in a cup of distilled water then pour it in.
...
 you might also try increasing the plate gap if you have additional insulators... double it is all
and see if that helps.... normally with the washer cells the super close plate spacing is a good thing
However... you may have them too close, I doubt it, but it may be possible to trap the bubbles if the plate spacing is too close.... rendering the plates almost useless... widen out the spacing to 1/16"
at the widest and try that.
... I used my .004  feeler-gauge and found that the Mk1 Randy cell worked fine at that spacing
I would think just plane flat plates would be even better than the washers...but that doesn't mean its true!
...
wish I could be of more help.... if you can find some KOH (potassium Hydroxide) (flakes is what I used)
I got it from "AAAA Chemicals" in Texas in 2lb containers.
 Personally I think Lemon-aid Koolaid is better, but KOH is my next choice. it will only take a pinch of KOH .... not even a teaspoon if your plate spacing is real close.
...
Bob....

[crb]

The only thing I'm sure of, is that the lemon juice keeps everything very clean.
I'll look for lemon-aid unsweetened kool-aid.

crb

[crb]

Found some lemonade koolaid unsweetened.
Building a new container with pop-off lid, might be a while on this one.

crb

[crb]

I configured my 5 small plates into a dry cell with 1.5 x 3.25 sq. in. of wet plate area.
Visually the cell puts out as well as any you have seen on utube.
Unfortunately it only puts out 1/4 lpm, Thats using my 12v fully charged battery.
The cell was drawing 22 amps +-+-+ using kool-aid.
Going to Lowes this morning and get some 3/8's fittings and tube for the
output side and see if that helps.
Maybe my method of checking my lpm is faulty. 4" tube with a bottle in it?

crb

[Manta]

crb,

So,  basicaly you have a set up as the sketch below with 0.025" spacing between plates ?

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

Manta,
I am using shower liner, about .040" before compressing.

crb

[Manta]

crb,

Ok.

What is the voltage across the cell when it is drawing 22 Amp ?

As it does't use much material,  I was thinking of replicating it and seeing what I get.

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

Manta,
12.5 volts on a fully charged battery.
crb

[Bob]

That would help immensely Manta !
because I cannot figure out why that cell puts out so little !
....
 CRB..... are you using a 1 Liter bottle in that 4" pipe ?   
 your just doing the bottle in a bucket LPM test Right ?
...
1.5"x3.25" =4.87" per plate x 5 = 24.375 square inches.... which isn't very much plate area at all.... hummmm
....
the way I test my LPM is simply get the cell ready and its output going to a hose/tube
( I use 1/4" vinyl tubing most of the time.)
fill the 1 liter bottle (Pepsi bottle if I can find one in 32 oz)with water completely full and invert it in a bucket of water and stick the hose from the cell inside the Pepsi bottle under water.... the idea is to trap all the gas coming out of the hose, so the bottle floats. start the cell and start timing when the first bubbles appear in the Pepsi bottle, and time it for 1 minute and pull out the hose or turn off the cell or both...
if the bottle is half full you have 1/2 LPM , completely full 1LPM...
 or 1/4 full only 1/4 LPM...
 Keep in mind that there is about 1" of air above the liquid when filled normally to  1 liter with Pepsi.... so I leave a few bubbles in the bottle to make it float!
if you have the wrong size bottle you will no doubt get a wrong reading
you can use a 2 Liter bottle as well , its just a bit less accurate is all.
...
if your making a dry cell chances are that you have small holes in each plate to let the gas out from between the plates.... this is a common error when making Dry cells as the hole needs to be as big as the hose being used to pipe the gas off
... I remember a guy that made a 7 plate dry cell that had 3/16" holes in the top left corner of each plate  and a 3/16" hole in the bottom right for the electrolyte to equalize
.... and he was plagued with leaks when the cell ran...  it did produce very well but the holes were too small.... he increased the hole size to 1/4" and it cured the leaks because the pressure didn't build up between the plates !.... his amp draw went up a tiny bit due to
current leakage as he put it...but at least his cell was usable then. he tilted the cell on the vehicle so the top holes were straight up and the bottom holes were straight down
he made a recirculating tank for it and a bubbler  and it worked like a charm he said he got 3/4LPM at 20 amps so that's not too bad.
...
Bob....

[crb]

I am pretty sure I have the bottle lpm checker correct.
I switched my koolade electrolyte to roebic drain cleaner.
At least my lpm went from 1/4 lpm at 22 amps 12.5 volts to
1/2 lpm @ about 10 amps at 12.5 volts.  +nnnnn- will be changing
it to +nnnn-nnnn+ and see what that will do.

crb

[Bob]

LOL well that doubled the output and halved the amps I'ed say that was the cure !....
seriously get some KOH  you'll really be glad you did!
... Lemonade in "Parallel Plate cells" works ok but in "Neutral plate cells" it SUX ! to put it mildly.... there just isn't enough stuff in there to make the continuity strong enough to do allot of production !
...
Bob....

[Bob]

CRB...
Actually that output is about on par for dry cell production 1/2 lpm for 10 amps
which should be a bit over 1LPM at 20 amps.... (and allot of heat)
its not the greatest output but definitely good enough to use!
... I would try that change in wiring however but I would go with -nnnn+nnnn- instead of the positives on the end.... just gives you one more negative plate is all...each of your Neutral plates will actually be duel polarity, having positive on one side and negative on the other side...."on the same plate!" strange I know , but that is how it works! hehehehhe
... having 4 or 5 neutrals is good as well, any more than that tends to loose production slightly, (most people go with 5 neutrals )
...
check your "connections" to the PLATES... these are places where you will encounter problems
as the electricity going through the plates will slowly eat away at the connections making them prone to have resistance through the connection and poor production because of it.
if you simply have a No# 10 wire with a soldered on eyelet on the end screwed to the plate
that is going to be a major problem area for you.
 the answer is to beef up the wire size say to an No# 8 Multi-strand wire with eyelets to fit that wire. heat sink conductive greese will help reduce problems as well.
...
a good test to the cell is to start it, do a LPM test and let it run for about 5 minutes and then check for HOT SPOTS.... warm wires are a great indication that larger wires are needed.
you will almost alwayse get a better LPM reading after the cell has warmed up ... some times as much as 1/4LPM more when the cell is warmed up ...
 I realise this is hard to do "OFF the vehicle" so you might just wait till you mount it in the car! 
... Never run the cell on the battery alone as it is a Huge drain on the battery !
and its really hard on a car battery to do that.... I always have the engine running and some times I even put a twig under the accelerator arm to raise the RPM a bit.
...
fwiw
Bob.....

[crb]

I ran it with -nnnn+nnnn- and +nnnn-nnnn+ seemed about the same output, I'll check it more today.
Output was was 1lpm at 12.5v@18amps, I was hoping for closer to 14-15 amps.
Actual wet plate area is 2x5 inches.
crb

[Manta]

What interests me is that you have a variety of plate configurations drawing a variety of currents from 10 Amp to 22 Amp and these give a variety of litres per minute.

But the battery voltage is the same for all of them.  I.e  12.5 Volt.

This is most unusual.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Well at least your making progress ! 1LPM at 18amps is acceptable...
its no where the "Randy cells" 2LPM at 20 amps but it IS something to work with !
....
My wife went on vacation with her Mom so I have been trying to get a bunch of the Honey-doo's done around here before she gets back....LOL not making too much progress on that....hehehe
...
 I have yet to try the "Randy cell" , just got it in its container and got derailed on other stuff....
......
 it turned HOT here... it went from 70 deg last week to 106 deg. today.... too hot for me so I'm hiding under the swamp cooler and waiting for sundown ! LOL
...
Bob...

[Bob]

Hi Manta!
 Not when you consider he was running the plates in parallel ... those would have the same voltage on all the plates... its only when he switched to the series cell....i.e. the neutral plate configuration, that the voltage will change....
 more than likely he just hasn't measured the voltage on the series cells...
the voltage reading between each plate I think is what interests Manta, CRB....
 the reason it is so important is that it takes 1.24v at a minimum to operateas a Hydroxy generator in a series cell... too many plates in line will drop the voltage too low as well as plate resistance.   having the cell +nnnn-nnnn+ you would measure the voltage between each plate individually all the way through the stack... the sum of all those voltage readings will add up to the total voltage being applied.
...j.f.y.i.
...
Bob.......

[randy]

106 wow, I think I might enjoy that kind of heat, for a couple minutes anyway hahahaha, nothing new to report on my current cell, still running daily with no problems or changes, my wife screwed up my mileage check, she put gas in it lol, been really nice only needing to gas up once a month instead of weekly. Got the upgrade kit for the extra alternator, just need the time to install it, still have to get another ammeter, relay, breaker, and heavy wire before I can install it, then I'll add plates to pull more amps. ran into a problem with my carburetor modification, the adjusting screws will hit the fuel pump, might have to go without a spring under the screw head, maybe adjust and set with silicone or blue locktight , gonna be tough to adjust anyway.

[Bob]

make a 1/2" thick raiser plate for the carb Randy... you'll probably have to pull the studs and put in longer ones or use bolts but that should cure the hitting problem.
...1/2" alum plate or 2 1/4" alum plates ... I think you have the equipment there to cut that fairly easy... might take some time  but it'ed be worth it... come to that you can probably just go buy a riser plate from the parts store... save all the work !
....
only tank up Once a month instead of 1 a week ? man that's like 4 times the usual gas mileage !
WOOOO HOOO !... if you were getting 20mpg that's 80mpg !.... even at a low estimate it should be OVER 40mpg !   GOOOOOOD WORK !

....
Bob......

[Bob]

Oh hay ! I found some Amp meters at a real reasonable price...
 50 amp amp meter 2" round at Harbor freight tools for $3.99 each I got one just for having it on hand!
...
I took my Motorcycle out for a ride today , had dinner out and went to Harbor freight tools afterword... had a good day ! LOL found all kinds of goodies in there but didn't get anything... I wanted to get a 150lb anvil and try to take it home on the bike but FORTIONATELY...they didn't have any ...said probably back in stock this winter!
... heheheheh
...
Bob.....

[crb]

Checked the lpm last night for some reason the current draw went from
18 to about 28 amps,  maybe the plates are getting conditioned.
I'm not very good about preliminaries.  Will have to dilute the E-lyte.
I might try my 1 ohm, 240 watt power resistor, to limit the current
draw.  I did get my 1 liter in less that 1 minute.
Over 25 amps seems to over drive my 3/8 discharge and 1/4 inlet hoses.

crb

[Manta]

Bob,

...Not when you consider he was running the plates in parallel ... those would have the same voltage on all the plates... its only when he switched to the series cell....i.e. the neutral plate configuration, that the voltage will change....

It wouldn't matter how the plates were configured if he was measuring the voltage at the battery terminals.

I was wondering why the voltage stayed so steady when he is only using the battery,  not a battery that is being charged from an alternator.
I would expect there to be a differrent voltage figure for each different current draw;  even if it was only a few tenths of a volt.


Everyone,

  When you are running your cells on lemon juice,  do you find that a cotton wool like substance seperates out from the electrolyte ?


Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

Manta; I haven't seen any cotton like stuff in my cells?

[Manta]

Randy,

It may be the stuff that I am using;  PLJ (Pure Lemon Juice).

But it's not so pure when you read the contents.

Lemon Juice (80%)
Vitamin C
Natural Lemon flavour
Lemon oil
Preservative (Sulphur Dioxide)


I have made up a series of dilutions.  As my little test cell holds 700 cc I am using 1,  2,  4  and 8 cc PLJ to produce 1, 2, 4, and 8 % mixes.
By keeping the mixes in separate jars I can try different plate configuration using the same strength mix and get a good set of current draw figures for each.

I have obtained some lab grade Citric acid,  and will re-run the tests with the same strength mixes but using the acid instead of PLJ.

Just need to get around to doing it.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

nor me ...but I never used lemon JUICE either ...just koolaid
...
Bob.....

[Manta]

Here is how I see crb's cell in +nnnn-nnnn+ configuration.  Is this correct ?

[crb]

Yes, that is how it is configured except -nnnn+nnnn-
When I ran the cell the last time, the the current draw went back down
to about 22 amps.  Tried the power resistor,
That will take more figerin!!
When I hook it up, the way I want it, It only feeds it about 5 amps.
It is a sliding clamp design type of resistor, when I adjust it to get around 17-20 amps,
it starts getting pretty warm over 200 degrees F.  Not sure on how hot to let it get.
 
I didn't notice any fir balls in my lemon juice.
Maybe it's the pulp in the mix?

crb

[crb]

Manta,
I'll try to be more exact on the voltage checks.
crb