new cell

[crb]

Need a design that will put out more than 1/4 lpm, 
What I have just tried is 11 3x6 plates +-+-+- etc/
I'm using a 12v battery on the bench fully charged.
The cell with just plain tap water is drawing 25amps @ 12.33v
It's only putting out about 1/4 lpm.
Any Idea"s?
I would think that it should put out a little more that that.
crb

[randy]

what's the plate spacing?, are the plates truly flat?, with it pulling 25 amps with just tap water I'd think there's an area somewhere with much closer surfaces, I had the same problem not long ago.

[Bob]

Seriously... drawing 25 amps on just plane tap water is very strange... perhaps your tap water is really high in alkily or something.... try using distilled water and see what it draws.... if it only draws about 5 to 10 amps that's about right for real close plate spacing... more than that ...i'ed havt'a say something is wrong somewhere.
....
do a continuity test with the cell first off.... when its dry and setting on a non conductive surface
use the Highest OHM reading setting you have , your looking for Mili-ohms! there should be absoultly NO CONTINUITY at all.... it sounds to me like you have a very large current leak somewhere due to continuity in the cell.
even 2 or 3 ohms will screw up a Hydroxy cell... No continuity is allowed!...
this sounds easy but many of the insulators used will give some continuity... a car inner-tube certainly will... most DARK colored gasket material will give some continuity, and only gets worse when it gets wet!
...
My last cell drew 20amps and gave only 1/4LPM.... but the plate spacing was real wide , about 1/4"
...
I expected better performance from the cell than that, but that is what I got....go figure!
...
 A "Randy Cell MK1" will make 2LPM at 20 amps.... that is documented by at least 3 people
yes their rather hard to assemble but Randy came up with another"stacking method" that makes them easier to assemble than the old way....
...
 You could get 14 wall switch plate cover plates and try to stack them 1/16" apart
...My old "Smack booster" used the neutral plate idea  which allowed the use of wall switch plate covers on nilyon rods as insulators... it worked and worked well ... but my threaded plastic rods broke in about 2 months of use, they got brittle with age and snapped !
i never did find the niylon bolts at the hardware store the plans called for... I believe you can still DL the plans for that cell too.... he also sells them , but their easy to build
...( I also used KOH in my "smack-booster"...that may be why the plastic got brittle with age.)
I am fairly confident that a strong concentration of lemon-aid would work in the "Smack booster"
....
the Typical DRY cell which I believe is what you have, will put out good as well, about 1.5 to 2LPM at 20~25 amps.... and if your not getting that  then something is definitely wrong.
...
problems that plague a Dry cell are many and varied... from not being able to get the gas out of the cell, to leaks , to gasket material problems, over heating and of course, not giving the cell enough amps! ( which is in MHO the number 1 cause for low LPM from Dry cells!)
...
Stacking the plates of a cell is all important ! you can use the Neutral plate method,or parallel hookup to the plates.... both work, I prefure the Parallel method, but as I said "BOTH WORK, and work well"   if you use the neutral plate method on your next cell, limit the number of plates to 5 or 6 plates and keep the plate spacing as close as possible. powering only the end plates and leaving the plates between them unconnected to anything, i.e.neutral. where guys run into problems is the over all width of the cell... because they use real wide plate spacing... the power just cannot travel that far without great losses... so keep the plate spacing small and it'll work fine.
...
 Parallel Hookup to me is by far the best but it is also HARDER to accomplish with close plate spacing
in a parallel hookup you can have many plates, as many as you have power to run. but be sure to keep your APSI (amps per square inch)(figuring only one side of each plate for the area)to between .3 and .5 amps per square inch...(amps total/plate area total in inches=APSI).(55sqr inches/20amps=0.36 APSI)
 this will assure that you get a good output from the cell.
if your parallel cell has A real LOW APSI, which could be the case here , as I haven't figured it out for you, you could have an abnormally LOW LPM output as well.
...
hope that helps
...
Bob....



 

[Bob]

CRB:
 I just calculated 3"x6"=18"ea. x11= 198 sqr inches
20amps/198=0.10101010 APSI
....
that's your problem !

either Reduce plate area by removing plates to get the APSI up
or raise the AMPS

18ea x 5= 90sqr total
20/90=.222222APSI.... this would only double your current output to 1/2LPM (est.)
...
198sqr in. total and 60amps
60/198=0.30303030.......or 1.25LPM from what your getting now (est.)

...
8 plates of 18sqrin.=144sqrin total
40amps/144=.27777 APSI
...
so as you can see what you'll need to do is remove plates and raise amps BOTH to get the cell to produce better.

5 plates at 18 ea=90
40amps /90=0.4444 APSI    this should give you 2LPM +~-

that's what I'd do I think.... reduce to 5 plates and up the electrolyte to get 40 amps
should get you 2LPM for as long as your bench battery can hold up!

...
 Hope that helps !
Bob....

[crb]

.020-.025 plate spacing, No continuity dry, I'll try some distilled water today.

crb

[Bob]

On the bright side.... with plate spacing as close as that you should have no trouble getting 50 to 60 amps draw.... by adding electrolyte to the water !
...
 as I see it, you have 2 choices, up the amperage
or...
reduce plate area drastically to get to the 0.3 to 0.5 APSI area
 or you could do a combination of both.
....
 strange as it may be, having allot of plate area does not mean allot of output...
having allot of amps ALONE does not mean allot of output either.
it takes the right amount of each to achieve allot of output
...
having close plate spacing also does not mean allot of output... but it helps Drastically!
because it is one of the 3 things that is needed for high output...
1. plate area
2. Amps to do the work
3. enough continuity in the electrolyte/water to do the work
 each of these things are dependent upon the others... meaning you won't be able to Draw enough amperage if your plate AREA is real low, no matter how much electrolyte you add.
which rules out enough amps to do the work.
....
 Plate area sets the amount of AMPERAGE you have to have in order to get the APSI high enough to have high output... so you have to have a certain amount of plate area, not too much not too little.
... in the same way Amperage effects the workings of the cell, too little amperage and the output is low, too much and the cell will over heat, although high output is almost assured with a moderate amount of plate area, you can't have just 2 plates and achieve really large output it takes mutipal plates.... although in THEORY if the 2 plates were large enough you could achieve the same output as with a multi-plated cell, but the plates would be unreasonably large, so by all intents and purposes it takes a multi-plated cell.
 All the plates in the world will do you little good if you cannot get the Electric power to transfer from plate to plate through the water.... that is where the electrolyte comes in at.
the electrolyte sets the amount of amps the cell can draw, not the "plate area".... the PLATE Area just makes that task EASIER.
it is far easier to draw 20 amps through plane water with many plates at a small plate gap than it is to draw 20 amps through a few plates with a large plate gap., in fact as you saw in many cases a small plate gap may or may not require electrolyte at all.... in most cases however adding just a pinch of Lemon aid or KOH will make a Huge increase in the ability to draw more amperage. and output will sky-rocket !
...
Under Normal circumstances even with very close plate spacing, the use of
 "Distilled-Demineralized"water will only draw a few amps by itself... maybe as much as 4~5 amps... HOWEVER, this ability to draw amperage is due to the cells PLATE AREA, and if you have allot of plate area you may find you do not need any electrolyte at all to draw 20 amps....But because of the large plate area the output at that 20 amps will be quite small..... the cell "WANTS 3 to 4 times that amount!"in order to operate at top output.
....
 Your Cell , CRB... Sounds like a very good one.  don't give up on it !
tune it to best output by taking a LPM reading at the Amperage you wish to use on it... then remove a plate or two, and do the same test again, and again, and keep doing that till you notice the LPM output start to go down, then back up and put the previous plates back on... then your cell will be tuned for max output at the given amperage.
....
 The "Randy Cell Mk1" used 11 washers of 2" in diam.... that's actually a very small amount of plate area all totaled... I seam to remember 55 sqr.in. total.... that's about 1/4 of your cell !
 that cell used 20 amps , your cell fed with the same amount would be around 80 amps !
at a rough guess...
...
 If you have an AC/DC Arc welder and feel like testing the LPM output at 80 amps/DC to confirm my figures Please do ! .... and your output should be about 8LPM !!!!!!!!
...
...
For what its worth....you probably already know all that anyway, I'm just re-affirming it is all.
...
Bob.....



 

[crb]

The plate are pretty flat.  The spacing is also fairly consistant .020-.025
Tried distilled water, the amperage went down to about 3-4 amps, didn't let it get very warm.
It is a plate in a dip type of cell.  Not a dry type cell.
I will be completely covering the sides of the cell, with hopes of no current leakage (trying to figure that one out)
I'm using 4" ABS pipe.
crb

[Bob]

Ok that is as I suspected... you have hard water there ! heheheheheh
... wrapping the sides,(as long as you leave the ends open) may well help stop current leakage around the sides of the plates.... but I am not sure that is a good idea. simply because the magnetic field goes in all directions from a charged plate, and its that magnetic field that breaks the molecules apart, you may lower production by doing that.
  a cell in a dip is far superior than a dry cell I think, although that is just an opinion and I have no figures to back that preference... <GRIN>
...
using Distilled water and the amp draw dropped to 3~5 amps.... that is a good sign !
now add your Lemonaid or KOH or what ever you choose to raise the amperage up to 20amps and check your LPM output once again.... it should be quite a bit higher than it was like about 3 times higher
.... that should put you at 3/4 LPM for 20 amps... if not have no fear.... it'll all come out in the wash cycle ! ....
...
we still have the over abundant plate area to amp problem to deal with. that should fix the output completely.
 either reduce plate area (if your like me you don't want to do that after going to all that work to get them there in the first place!), so the only other alternative is to up the amperage. just to get the APSI up where it can do some productive work.
the problem here is HOW much Amperage can you afford to give it ? if you have the standard altenator in your car of say 65 amps you need at least 35 to 40 amps to run the car  in all weather conditions.... lights, heater, fans,injectors... etc,etc, all take their toll on the amps.
so at the very best you can only get 30 amps from your standard alternator, and still keep the battery charged up for starting the engine ! ....
..... that's not very much !
 so unless your willing to go out and buy a 100 ~ 300 amp alternator and put it in place of your old standard alternator... your going to have to reduce plate area. because you don't have the amps to play with....
 On the bench you have even less options.... you need something to work with , and a single battery just doesn't give you much.
...
What kind of car are you planning on putting this cell in anyway CRB
... that might help some ...
...
Bob.........

[crb]

Using my test mule, 5,  2 x 3.75 plates,  using your method of counting only 1 side of plate = 7.5 sq in.
and using roebic drain cleaner (naoh) I really don't want to use naoh. 
The best I have been able to get is 3/4 liter in two minutes.  That's with my bench battery 12.3 volts,
drawing 15 amps.

It seems like everybody in world gets close to 1 lpm drawing 10-15 amps. Is this my dilemma?

Oh, I will be putting this in my 85 mustang 5.0.
I know this is not the best test vehicle, but it's what I have.

I wish I had a 4 cyl. pickup.

crb

[Bob]

ok on the test mule.... 5 plates at 2"x 3.75"...

2 x 3.75= 7.5   TIMES 5 plates= 37.5 sqr inches....
15/37.5=0.4 APSI.... so your in the ball park on APSI  GOOD !
....
whats the plate spacing on the Mule ? is it the same as the other or wider ?
...
in this case I think we have too little plate area.... the randy cell has 55sqr inches I believe ( 11 2" washers minus a 1/2" hole in the center and minus about 1/2" for the holes on each plate)
...
if you add 3 more plates to that cell for a total of 8 plates
thats 7.5 x8 =60 sqr inches
15/60=0.25 APSI.... fairly low....
raise the amps to 20 amps  and that gives us...
20/60=0.33333APSI, on the low side but should be fairly productive...

its actually ODD that the mule puts out so little ! it should do better than that I'ed think
... like 3/4LPM....  not in 2 minutes.... I find that very strange!
....

Remember, too little of plate area is just as bad on production as too much plate area
it has to be just the right amount in order to do the work its designed to do !
....
Yah I don't like naoh at all.... your plates are probably dirty by now from using it
in fact that in itself could be ALL your problems! SERIOUSLY !
.... about all you can do now is take the cells apart now and buff the plates on a wire wheel to get back to the metal and then re assemble them
...or perhaps an acid bath... but you have to eliminate the possibility of the plates being dirty ....
.... I suspect that your bench battery is lieing to you.... and the meter
more than likely the battery is not giving you 15 amps for 1 full minute
I had that problem once I was using the battery out of my old dodge truck and the output when I first hooked it up seamed ok but as time went on it very slowly dropped off and it was REALLY hard to tell that it was doing that... I finally borrowed my Dads charger and that made a huge difference ! the cell was working just fine but my battery and small charger just could not keep up ! even though the battery was strong enough to start the v8 in the truck it could not handle the 20~ 30 amps I was using on the bench !
.... more than anything else I think that is your biggest problem.
....
I too was plagued with constant low LPM output too and it was indeed the power I was using...
if you can test that cell from your car by using jumper cables from the battery with the engine running  you should see a big increase in output...if I am right...
the power dropping off real fast would no doubt account for all the low readings you've been getting
....
I know its bad news, but I think you will find that is the major problem now
...
 I had a VTOM on my battery as well and a trickle charger going all the time but it was indeed not enough amperage... it said I was getting 20 amps but when I hooked it to the truck it not only pegged my amp meter on the truck but when I re adjusted the electrolyte it started bubbling big bubbles ! something I had not seen up to that point! just the little misty bubbles...
... its a process of elimination go through your setup and eliminate any possible problems one by one starting with the cell, check continuity with it dry AGAIN ! don't assume it is still the way you left it a while back..... things change !
...
hope that helps !
...yes thats a big motor to put a single cell on but any cell is better than none... and you should have no problems tuning the engine to make the most of the Cell either ! and that's 90% of the problem !
with that big engine I hope you get the bigger cell going with all the plates on it and put out 5 to 8LPM ! that should push your MPG up to near 75MPG!  ... well, we can dream anyway !   but Higher than your getting now for certain ! LOL
...
Bob....


 

[crb]

Well I tried 5 3 x 6 plates -+-+- with my bench battery.  It's a very good battery.
I let it draw 45 amps for a couple of minutes with lemon juice,
the best it would do 1/2 liter in a minute.  Pretty rotten, POS
I'm starting to get pissed.

I think 10-15 amps and 1lpm is just a pipe dream or I need a completly
different design.

crb

[Bob]

well, I havt'a admit I think I'd be getting Pissed at this point too  GEEZ !
...
by chance can the plates be painted with a clear paint ? have you buffed them with a wire wheel yet?
...
 its acting like you have no plate area at all.... or the metal you are using has a high resistance to it....
...
  stop what your doing and build a "Randy cell Mk1" and test it just like you have been doing with the other cells ...if you don't get 2LPM at 20 amps there is something drastically wrong somewhere!
... heck we already know that... "there is something drastically WRONG!" they don't friggin' work!
...but what the heck is it?
...
 What are you using to measure your AMPS with ?   exactly
I have a few Auto amp gauges that register 1/2 the amps actually used...their old and from the 1950's
 perhaps this is the case here ?
 what wire size are you using to get the power to the cell ? a single strand of #12 electricle wire ain't going to cut it.. 4 strands per side might be enough... but i'm guessing here.
 I use #8 wire from the hardware store and made my connection loops out of the wire itself and soldered them up...  they have held up well for years now and handled over 40 amps at times
...
 saying its a good battery isn't good enough , sorry but you have to eliminate it as a possable problem.... chances are you are correct and it is a good battery.... but is it discharged a bit?
 a battery on a small charger doesn't really work very well, it works to a certain extent, but no where like the battery and altenator in the car.
 the altenator alone can power the cell  so it gives the battery all the power it needs to KEEP UP with the demand.... a 10 or 15 amp charger on the bench can't do that.... it would be lucky to handle 5 amps continiously....  if your charger is thermially protected you can hook it directly to the cell and see what I mean... it will throw its internal circuit breaker and stop working at about 10 amps if its a 15 amp charger, you could fry your charger so don't do that...<grin> its very hard on a charger when you do that!
...
  IF we assume that the electrical power is fine and can handle 30 amps continuesly for say 10 minutes before it starts dropping.... (I KNOW it cannot handle it over night so don't try it!)
 ... that means that we have to look else where for the fault...
 plate spacing is close, RIGHT ? on the Mule cell ? and no continuity through the cell at all when its dry... then it has to be the PLATES....
 it usually is a for gone conclusion that if your DRAWING say 20 amps that the plates are in contact with the electrolyte... that is OBVIOUS !  however it is possable that the plates are coated enough to stop production.
...
 let me assure you that I have seen 2LPM at 20 amps with my home made "Randy cells" I made 3 of them and they all put out purdy much the same....
 I tested them with a fairly weak 12vdc battery and a 30 amp charger.... the output was good at first but would drop off about 45 seconds into the LPM test... after each test I had to let the battery re-charge.... which took about 2 hrs.
...
 Every cell I have made except the "Smack Booster" and the "Randy cell mk1" has and I admit FAILED
due to extreamly LOW Output !   why ?  I have NO idea to be completely honnest!
 I made many out of plane steel because of the lack of Stainless steel and they usually only gave me about 1/4LPM at 20 amps...no matter the plate area high or low in plate area didn't seam to change a thing!
....
  Question, is your Stainless steel plates Magnetic at all ? will a magnet stick to them or be drawn to them even a little ?
...
 I made a cell here recently using stainless steel wall switch plate covers... used wide spacing and only got 1/4LPM at 20 amps... Abimisial output !
I THOUGHT it was because of the plate spacing... it may well be something else I am not aware of
as you are using very close to the same size plates and have close spacing and are getting the same results ! !!!!!!!
  WHY ?
 that doesn't make sense !
...
I'm thinking  !
...Bob...


 

[Bob]

I've been thinking about the Low Output on your cells CRB.... and it just don't sound right !
...
 I think the plates are coated with something now....its the only thing I can think of !
 that means take the cells apart again and buff them real good with a wire wheel or hand sand each one with sand paper  and then try not to handle them that much after words, pick them up by their edges not on the flat sides.... you don't want to put finger prints on them !
...
NAOH is probably your biggest problem... although I can't be positive because other people have used that and had no problems at all ... but sense I am GUESSING now I'ed guess that the NAOH is part of the problem...  if you don't have Lemon-aid  then you might try straight vinegar.... it might help clean up the cell too!
...
5 3"x6" plates, -+-+-  should work great ! that's 90square inches

45 amps /90in. =.5 APSI    that should net you 2LPM Plus a bit!  (guessing at 2.5LPM)
...
the results you are getting are way low, which makes me think your amp meter is not reading the amps right.... can you check it by referencing it with a VTOM capable of high amps?
or can you get another amp meter and swap it out ? and see if it reads the same ?
...at this stage I wouldn't be surprised at all if you said it was reading 45 amps and it was actually 10~15 amps when you checked it by another meter!
 it is acting UNDERPOWERED.... are the wires your using able to handle the amps without getting warm ?  if their getting warm they are reducing the power getting to the cell!
....
   SERIOUSLY... its acting Underpowered... I don't care what the meters say <grin>
...
you have to have a good power-source to test the cells lacking one try using the Mustang your planing on using it on.... you need to set it up anyway, with a relay and curcuit breakers.... and don't forget the bubbler....
....
 Your probably using the battery out of the mustang on the bench, but you need its ALTENATOR
more than you do its battery ! LOL !
or use one of the other vehicles you have there as the power source  all you need is a pare of good jumper cables to reach the cell with so You can do your LPM test
...
I'd try that first, if there is no change then you are going to have to clean the plates
...
wish I could be of more help
if you can't get it to work Please let me know ! its possible we are missing something here
if so, I want to know what the heck is going on ! LOL !
...
Bob...

[crb]

Using 5 - 3 x 6 plates +nnn- (the magnet falls off the plate) I was able to get 1 liter in 1 min 20 sec. 
Too bad it was at 20 amps.  I figure a .27 apsi.  Is this right?

I am using a Balkamp 700-1704 clamp-on ammeter

I tested it with 4 plates at 30amps yielding  1 liter in 1 min 15 sec. .57 apsi?  Still pretty lousy!!

crb

[Bob]

 5 3"x6"plates make 90 square inches of plate area.(18sqr.in. each)
taking the amps used (20) and dividing the plate sqr inches gives you the amps per square inch
 so 20/90=0.22222 APSI.... fairly LOW actually
....however the output is still less than 1LPM
4 plates of 3"x6"=18x4= 72 sqr inches
30/72=0.4166 APSI....  and it took over a minute to get 1 liter ?
...
 that just doesn't make sense !  you SHOULD be getting over 2LPM from the last test setup
...
Your Amp meter Should be about the best Money can buy there Congrats on that... but it doesn't mean its accurate ... take a reading on a light bulb or something you can use ohms law to get the amps from to double check... more than likely its more accurate than anything used to manufacture things with ! LOL !
... that doesn't leave much else to be wrong... is the plate spacing still .020"~.025"
.... what is that anyway about 1/32" ?
...or is it closer to 1/4" in spacing... i seam to remember you saying it was .20 to .25 ... and to me .25 of an inch is 1/4 inch and that is really WIDE plate spacing if that is the case.... the output almost matches my latest cell with 1/4" spacing ... lets understand exactly what you have in spacing shall we I'm confuzed now ... I thought we were talking about real close spacing like 2 100's of an inch apart thats close... but in decimal I think that's .020 .... tenths, hundreds, thousandths, etc,etc.
...
if your plate spacing is close to 1/4" and not near 1/32" or 1/64" .... that's the problem
(or so I say in fine print here LOL)
....
I've been up all night and not thinking real clear here hehehehhe
...
magnet falls off the plate so chances are the metal in the plates is good and not causing you undo resistance....
....
using the neutral plate design idea to make it easier to test should equate to be a close fascimily of the same thing... but it doesn't always work out that way... large plate spacing  changes the results from Parallel to neutral plate hookup...
...
so clarify the plate spacing for me one more time please do you mean .20"~.25" or .020"~.025" ?
...
Bob.....