The new ets cell....work in progress.

[Manta]

I've started out on a new test series (Put the titanium cell on hold until I get some titanium nuts and bolts) using some stainless plates I have had sat around for a while.

The plates are 2 mm thick and,  after allowing for the spacers and the cut aways for fixing etc,  they are about 5" square which gives me 25 square inch of surface area.

The support/terminals are 5 mm SS screws.

I've set the spacing at 1.5 mm simply because that is the thickness of the nylon washers I have.

First test will be in the grey plastic plant pot you see in the background. It will just be to set current draw to 10 Amp. The output measurements will have to wait until the measuring device is finished.

I am going to use a mix of PLJ (Pure Lemon Juice) and tap water and will take carefull note of the dilution.

The idea is to build three of these units to test series and parallel combinations.

More news later.

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

Now I'm not sure if it'll cause any problems but I believe the pure lemon juice will have natural sugars in it. If you'd like pm me your mailing address and I'll send you some lemon kool-aid.

[Bob]

Fantastic Manta !
glad to see you finally building a cell again ! <GRIN>
...
 the plate gap does seam quite wide however.... perhaps a plastic bottle from the trash can would provide you with thinner insulator washers.... 2 or 3 at a time would give you about 1/16" spacing
if ya want that much....
 other wise your output will be pathatic at best.... my 7 plate cell I made from wall switch covers had wide spacing and I am sure that is why the low output...
 ...try to find a clear ,see though plastic bottle or a plastic milk-carton which isn't the best as they are not very uniform, unlike plastic water bottles or 7up bottles...
...
 in theory you can get as good an output as the "Randy Cell" but in order to do that you need to keep the plate spacing real close together !
 if you have the same plate area and the same plate gap and the same amperage along with the same electrolyte... the same output is inevitable.... well so it says here in fine print...but we all know that Hydroxy gas generation has a way of throwing you curve balls when ever it can ! LOL
...
Bob......

[Manta]

Randy,

Thanks for the offer.  We probably have it over here but under a different name.  I'll have to have a look around the supermarkets.
 As far as I remember,  PLJ has virtually no sugar content.  My wife is getting me a bottle today,  so I'll check out the label and let you know. I used to drink gallons of the stuff when I was a kid.
What you could do,  if you would,  is copy down the ingredients list of Lemon Kool - Aid and post it so I can compare it with anything I find.

Ideally I need to call in at my old works and see if the lab rats have some citric acid they will sell me.
If I get really stuck I'll get back to you and we can sort something out.

Bob,

My choice of gap is a bit of a compromise. I chose 1.5 mm (about 1/17 ") as I have a batch of nylon washers that happen to have 5.5 mm holes. Fits my 5 mm nylon all thread that I am using to clamp the plates together. Also I have 5 mm nylon nuts,  so no risk of shorts between the plates there.

Also, when you get down to about 10 - 20 thou " it becomes very important to have the plates quite flat.  Too easy to get them touching if they are slightly warped,  even if you have 2 mm thick plates as I have.

So I decided to settle for a wider gap with lower current draw. I'll place a few in parallel to increase surface area to compensate for this. Also they should run cool.

Wasn't there something about bubble interaction that causes problems if the plates are too close ?
Maybe localised heating on the plates as the current tends to take the easy short cut ?

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

My lemon juice ingredients: lemon juice from concentrate,
sodium bisulfite, sodium benzoate, and lemon oil
crb

[Manta]

crb,

That was quick.  Thanks.

Dave
(Manta)

[crb]

Just happen to be up, pretty early here, Washington state.
The ph is about 3
crb

[Bob]

Ahh ok Manta... they just looked much wider than that in the picture, that's all
1/17" should be close enough to do the trick ! if not I'll always think so ! LOL
...
yes the plates need to be very parallel to each other.... in the extreme ! otherwise Electron Pooling will occur at the closest points between the plates.... what this does is rob the other areas of the plates from having good production and the results is slightly very slightly... reduced output.
... I seriously doubt you could calculate how slight the reduction would be on 2 plates with enough amps to make them operate fairly well.... but you never know.... that's the theory anyway.
...
there used to be an Old wives tail about "too close of plates traps the bubbles and they can't excape"
but its just a myth and nothing to worry about. the bubbles coming off the plates are so very tiny they look like a Cloud in the water... not real bubbles, just a cloud..... its only after they are a ways above the plates that they Accumulate into larger bubbles. the density of the cloud effects how many big bubbles form and all that...
 Bubbles in the water/electrolyte can and will displace a great deal of water as well...
I ran a test to see how much ages ago and in the container I had in the truck and with 3 cells running but only fed with 40 amps it displaced a good 1" of water in the 1 gallon container....
so ALWAYSE leave room for that displacement! LOL
....
 Your going about it in a good way Manta... a bunch of cells ran in parallel will work very well indeed...
 I wish you luck !
...

 OH HAY ! I saw on the news a bit ago that gas prices are supposed to be Dropping some....
(I'll believe that when I see it!)
...
Bob....

 

[Manta]

Fuel prices coming down !! Now you are pulling my leg.

Our went up to £1.40/Litre  (Diesel) which at an exchange rate of 1.64 Dollar/Pound gives us about $10.42 per Imperial gallon.

I've just made up another pair of plates identical to the first set. And the measuring device is about ready to roll.  So I only need to make up a couple of cases for the cells and I am all set to measure.

I tested my lamps and they draw 4.2 Amp each at 12.3 Volt. 

Just got to make the cells draw as close to the same apmerage as I can.

An aside:  Has anyone tried using Sulphuric acid as an electrolyte ? I was thinking of battery acid.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Oh OUCH ! (Wince)
that's just WRONG!  no fuel price should be that high! that is just as high as Rocket grade Hydrogen Peroxide!   GADS!
....
Never hurd of anyone using Sulpheric Acid.... but I have used KOH  also knows as Potassium Hydroxide.
with good results... many people use Sodium Hydroxide, (drain cleaner) but I would never do that.
I've used Vinegar and it worked great and stayed clean but the amp draw was on the weak side
... stay away from anything with Salt in it as it will make a GREEN GOO that floats on the surface of the water.... this GOO will also coat the plates and seal them shut to the water and render them useless  giving it enough time.
... personally I'ed go with lemon aid Koolaid...  or a similar product baring that then KOH (potassium Hydroxide) ...
  as long as you have close plates the Lemonaid will work real good... if you have a wide gap there just isn't enough continuity in the lemonaid to draw that many amps...so you'll have to go to KOH...
 ...
 KOH is MEAN Stuff treat it accordingly if you mess with it!
...
Bob....

[Manta]

Bob,

Yes, both KOH and NaOH can be nasty.  I have used both of these in my biodiesel production.  I have a small amount of KOH,  but tend to use NaOH as I have 25 Kilo of the stuff.

I don't intend to use either of these alkalis in my cell for the very reasons you mention. The idea of having to strip the cell down every few week doesn't appeal to me.

The reason I mention Sulphuric acid (H2SO4) is that,  being used in batteries it is readily available,  and,  as far as I can see,  unlike Hydrochloric acid (HCL) it doesn't give of chlorine gas or anything other than hydrogen (as it does in car batteries).
So,  as it is a much stronger acid than lemon juice it may be a way around the wide spacing problem.

I have a large bottle of dilute H2SO4 and intend to experiment with it,  but wondered if anyone here had already tried it.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

yah it may well be viable for use in Hydroxy cells.... I do know it acts as a natural antifreeze to... but only to a certain point... car batteries can and do freeze solid in extreme temperatures...
....
All in all I think Randy found the perfect Electrolyte... plain o'l lemonade Koolaid  it works good
although not very strong, but it stays clean ! and that is very important!
...
Bob...

[Manta]

Got the PLJ.

Ingredients are Lemon Juice (80%), Vitamin C, Natural Lemon Juice, Lemon Oil and sulfphur Dioxide.

So not as pure as I hoped.  But I'll give it a try and see what happens.

Then maybe try dilute H2SO4.

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

lemon k-aid ingredients;
citric acid
calcium phosphate
maltodextrin
sodium 10 mg
lemon juice solids
ascorbic acid
vitamin c
yellow 5