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Author Topic: A completely different approach !  (Read 577 times)
Bob
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« on: March 29, 2011, 09:48:15 pm »

 In the file section here I posted a .PDF file, that of a young Man who clams to have licked the problem of running a car on water.... he Literally runs the car on water, or so he says !
...
 the whole idea as I see it is to use an inverter to generate 110vac and put that voltage into the spark plugs.... then simply open the main jets a bit in the carburetor and fill the tank with water!
..(the warming of the water tank by the exhaust is only superficial in my view, yes it should help but shouldn't be needed at all to run the engine!)
...
 so in essence what this Kid is saying is that he Zaps the water/air Mist with 110vac and it breaks apart the water molecules and ignites the gas in the same move....
...
My experiments thus far have not proven or disprove the idea... but it is looking unlikely !
... first off I can't get 110vac to make an arc on a plug at all ! perhaps with the addition of a large capacitor it might.... but I don't know.
and sense the whole idea rides on the spark plugs firing I am beginning to think its some Fella's IDEA that he thought out, but never built, but says he did so others would try it.
...
 Check it out in the file section, the title is the same as this thread.
...
please post your comments... its a Novel idea... perhaps it Could work under the right circumstances?
...

Bob....





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Bob
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« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2011, 09:54:51 pm »

I suppose the real question here is will a spark ignite water/vapor Mist ?....
it would have to break down the water vapor instantaneously, and then ignite the resulting gasses
.... I have never seen anything that would lead me to think that you could brake down water vapor into HHO by using a spark , no matter how large the spark is... but that does not mean it couldn't happen !
....
Bob....

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randy
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« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2011, 02:56:08 am »

hmmmm, I actually tried something like that, but only got as far as hooking wires to a sparkplug, plugged it into the wall socket, nothing happened, no spark.
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Brad4321
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« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2011, 08:33:23 am »

Hmmm, yeah, this one isn't happening unless we have missed a step....

You won't get 110v to arc a spark plug of normal gap (.040-.060). Your voltage (or electrical "push") just isn't high enough. Old point cars with low plug gaps, into the .030 and lower arced with about 15,000-20,000 volts. New cars with the large plug gaps of around .060 are arcing up to and around 80,000 volts. To say the least, on .020 plug gap, you are lacking about 15,000 volts to get it to happen. You can find sources saying you can arc as low as 5,000, but you won't find voltages that low since the 40's.

The amps running through a plug are small, into the millivolts, about .008-.010 are normal. The amps isn't there for many reasons, we aren't tig welding, but the voltage is needed to jump that gap.

Now, there is a possibility that he was taking 110v and putting that to the coil. This would work and would create a spark, maybe twice until the coil burned out. No 12v coil will last long on 110v. If you were able to get a 110v coil and rig it up, could you get a hotter spark? Probably. However, would that spark be (electrically) hot enough at 1/8" long inside the relatively large combustion chamber to create HHO and then ignite it? Most definitely not. The amps aren't there and our "plates" are two thin pieces of steel (the electrodes of the plug). Any HHO created that did ignite would do nothing but boil any water present, creating the HHO isn't a chain reaction like igniting gasoline is. Unless you got more information leading to some secret, I wouldn't loose a whole lot of sleep on this one.
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Bob
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« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2011, 12:41:57 pm »

Perhaps he omitted a part to allow him to get a patent later , who knows !
...
 Air is a very good insulator and doesn't transmit heat very well at all... so even if the volts and amps were there in the cylinder your chances are better at FLASH Steaming the water than turning it into HHO gas... (I believe in the process of FLASH Steaming water some HHO gas is produced but it is very little)
....
 I have no idea why a fella would write such an article if it wasn't true... perhaps he is just MEAN and wants to cause problems...maybe he gets his Jolly's thinking about all the people trying to make it work... I have met people like that, and thank GOD they are far and few between
... However this is the kind of thing that people are LOOKING FOR.... a easy solution to the gas problem
and I doubt there is an easy solution !
  ... but this has got me started on using 110vac with Hydroxy cells...  after thinking on it a while
using 12vdc is using the very lowest end of voltage to make Electrolisys work.... and we wonder why we have problems getting large volumes of HHO Huh?   sticking with 12vdc mandates using higher and higher amps to get the "WORK" done, where if we used more voltage you could use less Amps to get the same amount of work done....
 the down side of higher voltage is more heat.  THEY SAY that anything above 1.24v on a plate is wasted into heat.... I have trouble believing that  however in order for heat to take place work or transfer of energy must take place....
 using their logic if we  took 1000 volts and one amp it would all go up in heat and make very little HHO....  but the fact is there is only so much wattage you can get from amps and volts and that wattage is a measure of its heat producing ability...
  in my view YOU will get that heat no matter how you use it... weather High  volts low amps or low volts high amps .... its the same thing !
 however it is allot easier to get a great deal more power onto a cell using 110vac or 220vac
and because of that more HHO should be produced!
...
 Consider that the AMP barrier is a major problem with production we now face.... its hard to get over 30 or 40 amps in a cell..... PERIOD....
 so if you want to give the cell more power you are going to have to raise the VOLTAGE...
 ...
 say 40 amps is the limit on the cell.... you want more power than that because production is only 3.5LPM....... the only way you can do that now is to raise the voltage....
 because your putting more POWER into the cell you will definitely get allot more heat... that is a given.... so plan on a real good cooling system !
...
so maybe it is possible to get the 50LPM we need out of a SINGLE cell (with a good cooling system attached to it)  and it may be as simple as raising the voltage.
...
 I wanted 200 to 300 amps to a cell , but you cannot get there with the electrolyte... so the way around it is to raise the voltage and get the EQUIVALENT POWER to the cell instead
... then perhaps we will see Outputs of 50LPM from a single cell on a regular basis !
....

with this method close plate spacing will not be good because at some point the Electricity will ARC between the plates.....  the close spaced plates will LIMIT the amount of voltage you can have.
...
this tells us that there is a Limit to the amount of HHO output you can get with Electrolysis
... that limit is far above what we are currently getting however.
....

Bob


 
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Bob
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« Reply #5 on: March 31, 2011, 02:46:16 am »

HEHEHE !
Well I got my Hydroxy cell and put it in the shed and hooked a cord to it and plugged it in
... the plug in made some funny noises and the cell hummed a bit... the cord got hot so I un plugged it and went and dumped out the Koolaid and added tap water and took it back to the shed... hooked up the cord... and nothing... barely even tiny bubbles ! ... I sprinkled some koolaid in the cell and then it started working.... added a bit more and I could hear it starting to hum... after a few minutes it was putting up a good cloud of HHO in the electrolyte but only a tiny bubble every once in a while...
 so my thoughts that it would work real good on 110vac were shattered quickly !...
 it did produce HHO but not that much at all, even with the original Koolaid mix in it which was a bit too strong... it was dimming the lights and heating the cord real fast... but it didn't produce as much as when I had it connected to the truck battery... so I cut back on the Koolaid and it really didn't do much at all....
...I'd have thought putting 110vac on the cell would have made up for the wide gap on the plates... but it doesn't look like it helped that much.... all in all that cell is probably one of the worst ones I ever made ! ...I can't seam to get it to produce by any means.... the only thing I haven't tried is using the arc welder on it.... and sense I can't put the arc welder in the truck there is little sense in trying that ! LOL
....
...
  its just like this Hydroxy stuff to throw ya a curve ball  when ya think you know what it will do !
... LOL 
...
Bob.....



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randy
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« Reply #6 on: March 31, 2011, 03:02:27 am »

rectify that 110vac and see what happens. with the ac the plates are alternating between anode and cathode and are too confused to do much. kinda like me at a buffet. hahahaha
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Bob
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« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2011, 03:47:06 pm »

LOL you might be right there Randy ! I know I get confuzed at a buffet too, so putting only one plate in front of the hungry electrons makes allot of sense ! LOL
...
I'll have to scrounge up some high amp diodes and see what I can come up with...
thanks for the help !
...
Bob......

...
 Oh on a side note... My battery kept going down in my little truck.... come to find out the radio was on.... after trying a dozen times to turn it off it simply wouldn't so I tried to un plug the darn thing... RIGHT... couldn't get my hand up there so I just cut the dern wires to it.... it went silant !  LOL
 I bet my battery stays up now ! ....Aurgh !
...
c ya !



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Brad4321
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« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2011, 11:20:39 am »

Quote
Consider that the AMP barrier is a major problem with production we now face.... its hard to get over 30 or 40 amps in a cell..... PERIOD....
 so if you want to give the cell more power you are going to have to raise the VOLTAGE...

On my guesstimation, you have nailed it.

110v and 5 amps is 550 watts. 14v and 40 amps is 560 watts. The higher voltage can move the same amount of watts (measurement of power, work done) with considerably less amps. 110v and 15 amps, the typical home circuit is 1650 watts. 220v and 60 amps is 13200 watts. To get this same amount of power on 14v, you would need about 945 amps.

I don't know if watts is really a proper measurement for hydroxy production, but I bet that it is since it works for everything else electrical, mechanical, or otherwise (a car engine is about 100KW, or 100,000 watts).

Don't be surprised if our cell designs and number constants do not work or need tweaking on the higher voltage, especially our measurement of voltage per cell.

This is the exact reason I was looking into a 24v alternator for my car. 26v and 40 amps is 1040 watts, or just about double that of a 12v system. However, I have pretty much given up on that idea due to 24v alternator cost.
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Bob
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« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2011, 04:11:47 pm »

Yes you could  put a High amp say 200amp alternator on your car and run a 4000 watt DC to AC inverter and produce more Wattage than just about any other method....
...
Yes Wattage is a measurement of power and can be used on HHO generators.
...
however when you start raising VOLTAGE you do increase the possability of internal ARCing.... which is not good at all.... at some point as you raise voltage  an arc on the typical cell will be inevitable
but I think that will be way too high of a voltage for us to have to worry about
...
Bob...
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Manta
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« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2011, 07:14:54 am »

Sounds a bit too much like a simplyfied Stan Miers job to me.

Dave,
(Manta)
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