Automotive Alternators

[candyman55]

Hey guys,
I have been reading this thing over and over, and someone smarter than me is going to have to help. I am thinking that we can use something like this in conjunction with our existing alternators to help power our cells. I am not convinced that it will work totally but for the guys with the generators in the tool box idea, it may have some merit.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_4/8.html

I think I am going to try it out as soon as I can find another altermator (I only have one now)
Let me know what you think. I guess I could just be nuts. On the other hand i am pretty sure of it. 

[Bob]

Ummm "something like this" ... like what ? all I saw was a guy playing with altenators <grin>
what do you have in mind ?
...
Bob...

[candyman55]

If you have a second alternator, modify it as you modified the first one, connecting five of your own wires to the field brushes and stator line terminals, respectively. You can then use it as a three-phase motor, powered by the first alternator.

Connect each of the three-phase line wires of the first alternator to the respective wires of the second alternator. Connect the field wires of one alternator to a 6 volt (or 12 volt) battery. This alternator will be the generator. Wrap rope around the sheave in preparation to spin it. Take the two field wires of the second alternator and short them together. This alternator will be the motor:

Back to the picture: Is there anyway to make the generator ( possibly with the addition of a small 12V motor to start it instead of a rope) Power the second alternator ( motor) and produce any useable voltage?

[Bob]

You should ask Him Candyman  I realy do not know...
but I do know a generator made into a morot is a lousie motor.... it makes a better altenator than it does a motor......
so actually I see no sense in it...its not like you will be able to hook one altenator to the other and spin it and get enough electricity to power the motor to spin it more ect,etc...
the laws of conservation in this case will take their toll and your end results will be no spin at all.
yet alone be able to spin the altenator with the altenator motor and get extra power out of it
it just ain't going to happen....although you may experiment with it and find a way to get around the losses...
 I remember reading in a Popular Mechanics mag. years ago of an inventer who made such a device that was supposed to be able to make electricity 120vac and was vurtually self sustaining...
the Swiss inventer was all set to market the suitcase sized generator to the public and that was the last I hurd of it... it produced 5000watts of 120vac and needed no fuel...
a perfect answer for todays needs... but alas that is the way it goes... he probly got knocked off by the big oil companies or PG&E ...hehehehehhe
they were slated to cost a whopping $10,000 to $15,000 way back when.... so I figured no one would buy one even if they did mass produce them !
....< the greedy Human syndrome strikes yet again!>
...
I bring that up because the suitcase was supposed to contain one motor  2 altenators and a flywheel
and a DC to AC inverter.... I believe a small motorcycle battery was used in it as well but not positive... it was way back in the Mid 1970's if memory serves me correctly.
...
however the artical went on to explain that its impossable to do what he has clamed he has done, yet he done it ! HAHAHHAHAHA they also mentioned that they would do a follow up artical on it, but nothing like it ever showed up again.... probly like the Mayers thing and even though it worked just fine they down played it and made him look like a fool !
.... makes a person wonder who pays these writers uh ?
...
Bob.....

 

[numberonekiwi]

Hey Bob I think this is totally plausible we are looking at the near future of 100% hydroxy in a car so It could be said 100% hydroxy on a generator actually this is more possible in my opinion I am not sure what size engine  it would take to power a 10KW genny but about 13 HP would do the trick I think ( how many CC ) if we were to take 1.2KW of that power to an hho cell that 12v @ 100A could net us something in the region of 8 to 10 LPM enough I am sure to run 13HP engine I would imagine even a 500 CC engine would be easily able to do this job and feeding it 8 -10 LPM would almost mean 100% hydroxy

But then again running a genny 24/7 how long would it last - maybe you would need several units that ran at alternate times

just another theory

but as for the alternator theory I am thinking of something for hydroxy cells along the lines of 3 phases / 3 cell banks AC freq varied with motor speed ? thinking still brain clicking over   ROFLOL

[Tink]

Guys,
Can anyone refresh my memory as to what the difference between the old 'generators' used in the older cars and trucks and the modern alternator? Reason I'm asking is I found one out in the barn. It has 12V stamped on it and the alternator/generator guru in town wants $130 to rebuild it. I was wondering if it would be usable as a wind gererator or to use in our HHO production. I'm going to rebuild it myself, heck maby all it needs is new brushes.

 As to a previous post. In my experience a 10KW generator requires a 18 to 20 hp engine to produce 120volts. The portable ones ware out with continued use. You gotta get an industrial one to last 24/7. The better ones rev at 1800rpm and are desiel. These cost minimum $6,000.

Any coments are, as always, appriciated,
Tink

[hydrotinkerer]

The main difference is internal or externally regulated. What kind of alt. is it or vehicle it goes on(if known). Any part numbers on it would help.

[LarryW]

If I am remembering right, generators produce DC, alternators produce AC.  For what ever reason it is better to produce ac current and convert it to dc then  to produce straight dc.  I think it was the low rpms with the generators would allow the lights to dim.  Maybe AC voltage is easier to produce at lower rpms???  Or maybe easier to control a constant voltage???

[Bob]

Hay Tink !
I too have a Old 12vdc generator ( not an altenator)  it is perfect for a wind generator because it has Perminant magnets in it and will charge by just spinning it.
as Hydrotinkier mentioned it needs a Voltage regulator  in order to work right...
I was in the process of hooking it to my water wheel in the year round creek but never got it done!
...got the water wheel but nuttin' else done ! HAHAHAHA
...
you can make a wind generator out of that Old car generator fairly easy by mounting 4 to 6 blades on the pully but that is usually fairly ineficient as it takes a real strong wind to get up enough RPM so
useing a idlier shaft and mounting the blades on it and then drive the generator with a conventional v-belt for a step up in RPM seams to work the best ! a 3 or 4:1 ratio works good with 6 ft blades
this is a big unit but charges very very well !
the unit needs to spin 360 degrees on its horozonal axis to face the wind so slip rings are usually used and brushes just like in the generator...
the voltage Regulator ( found in a wrecking yard now days)  can be mounted in the battery shed
...
its a big project... but well worth it if you have allot of wind... unfortionately I don't on the ranch and will probably go with a wind turbine instead. vertically oriented so it catches wind in every direction. sort'a like a wind speed gauge <grin> geared way down so even the slightest wind moves it is the way to go with these type !
...
an Alternator requires power to energize the electromagnets inside it
a generator Has perminant magnets in it so no outside power is needed....
all in all a Alternator is by far a better charger than a generator
if I were to build one today I'ed go with 2-200amp alternators ( GM type) and hook them to 12 ft Rotor blades mount it 100' up on a tower and charge a bank of Home made batteries...
and buy the biggest DC to ac inverter I could find .... but that all costs money which I havn't got so I am reduced to dreaming about it ! HAHAHHHA

[LarryW]

an Alternator requires power to energize the electromagnets inside it
a generator Has perminant magnets in it so no outside power is needed....

Hey Bob,
  GM has a 1 wire alternator that is self energizing.  If I dig around I think I can find out how to convert any gm delco into a 1 wire alternator.  I do believe there was a problem with it not energizing with racers using the power pulleys that slow everything down.  I remember something that can be done internally with the alternator to make it energize at a slower rpm too though.

[Bob]

hehehe OOOK goes to show ya I don't know everything ! HAHAHHAHA
thanks for the info !
these things change so fast anymore.... that or i'm just getting old and can't keep up ! HAHAHHA!
Bob.......

[LarryW]

OK, found the site.  Lots of alternator info.    

http://mightymo.org/Proj_OneWire.html

[LarryW]

I had some problems once with the starter/generator on my Internation Cub Cadet.  It is both the starter and a generator.  Anyways I believe the generator stuff is pretty much the same for all generators but here are the links to both the starter/gen. and the 3 pole regulator.  It may/maynot help but it give you an idea of the workings behind the generator.

Starter/generator
http://www.simpletractors.com/service/electrics/starter-generator.htm

3 pole regulator
http://www.simpletractors.com/service/electrics/3_pole_regulators.htm

How its all wired up.  This is the schematic for whole tractor but...
http://ihregistry.com/wiring/C33.pdf

[randy]

built a waterwheel for a buddy years ago, he's still using it, chopped up an old 10 speed bicycle and used gears to get the rpm"s right, he says it's still working great.

[geezer]

just a thought take it for what it is worth. visit some wind gen sites seams like some of them use low rpm 800 to 1100 rpm 12 to 24 V DC motors for generators.

[hydrotinkerer]

an Alternator requires power to energize the electromagnets inside it
a generator Has perminant magnets in it so no outside power is needed....

Hey Bob,
  GM has a 1 wire alternator that is self energizing.  If I dig around I think I can find out how to convert any gm delco into a 1 wire alternator.  I do believe there was a problem with it not energizing with racers using the power pulleys that slow everything down.  I remember something that can be done internally with the alternator to make it energize at a slower rpm too though.

I forgot all about those. I took the generator off and got a one wire alt. on my lincoln welder

[Bob]

You can buy those generators Geezer... if you have enough money... they are perminant magnet super strong magnets and charge at a very low RPM but they are spendy
the Alaska site that someone pointed us to a while back had them and the complete wind generators,Inverters, ( not very large though) and a bunch of other stuff...
the cheepest wind generator they had was a 2500watt for about $700 bucks if I remember right
...
At the Ranch I'ed rather have Solar cells to charge batteries myself as the sun is alwayse strong there....I plan to make a Hudge Hot air box to heat the house with most of the year and supliment with wood till I can get a Hydroxy furnace figured out!
hehehehhe
at this location  where I'm at now way up on the mountian , there is hardly ANY Sun shade everywhere
because of all the tall pine trees and the property is not wide enough to cut trees down to give sunlight ... so I'm stuck with wood heat or Kerosean.

Bob..........

[janmarsh]

"Windblue" permanent magnet alternators are the way to go.  30 % approx. less energy demand compared to conventional alternators.  The DC-500 is designed to be motor driven.  Very efficient.

You can modify your own Delco 10si or 12si alternator to save cash.....Rotor $114, Stator $69 from Windblue.

They are on ebay from a US seller for $239 US........   I'm in UK & the exchange rate makes them expensive for me but you U.S. folks should keep them in mind.   

[Bob]

Hummm that has potential ! thank you
at over $200 bucks thats a bunch of money but I can get off on modifying my own ! KOOL ! thanks !
...
Bob.......

[candyman55]

There has got to be something like that we can use indepedant of the engine. Hopefully driven by a permanet magnet treadmill motor or something. (If you turn a permanet magnet motor by hand you can make DC electric.) Not sure how much but I can light a couple of 12volt led]s with it.

[hg2]

If you have a second alternator, modify it as you modified the first one, connecting five of your own wires to the field brushes and stator line terminals, respectively. You can then use it as a three-phase motor, powered by the first alternator.

Connect each of the three-phase line wires of the first alternator to the respective wires of the second alternator. Connect the field wires of one alternator to a 6 volt (or 12 volt) battery. This alternator will be the generator. Wrap rope around the sheave in preparation to spin it. Take the two field wires of the second alternator and short them together. This alternator will be the motor:

Back to the picture: Is there anyway to make the generator ( possibly with the addition of a small 12V motor to start it instead of a rope) Power the second alternator ( motor) and produce any useable voltage?

  Isn't this trying to beat the laws of perpetual motion,which to my knowlege hasn't been accomplished yet.I think if you tried this it would run for a little bit then slowly come to a stop,even with additional battery power it would just delay the inevitable.Sorry I sometimes think outloud now and then.

[candyman55]

You certainly have a point. But, the object of my quest is not necessarily to create enough power to totally operate our electrolyzers but to take some of the strain off of the vehicle electrical systems. 

[hg2]

You certainly have a point. But, the object of my quest is not necessarily to create enough power to totally operate our electrolyzers but to take some of the strain off of the vehicle electrical systems. 

  OK I understand now and yes that makes sense.

I don't know if this will help you at all,but a guy on another forum built a bracket on his rear differential,installed a second alternator just for the hho generator,and ran it off the driveshaft next to the universal joint.He claimed that this would lower the drag caused by high amp load because the transmission would gear down and use less motor power to run the alternator.Seems like it might work,but then again this guys the only one that I've seen try it.

[Bob]

the Feller has a good idea ...BUT the RPM of the drive shaft is way too slow for a altenator to charge at its full output.... he would need something like a 12" pully on the drive shaft to make up for the
slower RPM  I think....
 I'm guessing here !
...
Bob........

[hg2]

the Feller has a good idea ...BUT the RPM of the drive shaft is way too slow for a altenator to charge at its full output.... he would need something like a 12" pully on the drive shaft to make up for the
slower RPM  I think....
 I'm guessing here !
...
Bob........

  It's been some time now since I read the guys post but the only thing I remember about the pulley is that he welded it as close as possible to the rear u-joint so not to cause much vibration.How many rpms does a driveshaft turn when say going 55-70 mph?And if you had a high amp alt. would it have to be turning very fast just to run the just the hho gen.I guess this wouldn't work if your everyday commute was in stop and go traffic,unless you had a whopping size battery that would last until you got going fast again.

[Bob]

Yah ...the altenator needs the engine hookup... why go to all the truble to connect it there when going slow it doesn't charge at all ?
an altenator needs to turn 2000rpm to charge full output.... thats not that fast...a genrator on the other hand needs about twice that ....thats why generators have vurtually done away with.
....
I plan on mounting a additional altenator on my engine where the Airconditioner usually is fitted...
sense my truck don't have air conditioning in it its a great spot for it.
with 2 Altenators running I amagon it will cost me a bit of power deduction but I seriously doubt it will be noticeable when in use its only an aditional 8hp drag on the payroll after all and with something like 200hp I think it is, its not going to hurt the output of HP enough to where I'll have to turn off the generator to climb a steep hill.
...
Heck I could have 4 altenators hooked to the engine without having any problems like that...
so its not a worry at all....
it is getting a Hydroxy generator that will produce Hydroxy gas in proportion to the amps being used...
( large output!)
...
thats where I stand now... needing more Hydroxy gas and not having the Amps to support it!
Bummer deal dude!
heheheh
Bob.......

[janmarsh]

Bob,
          Regenerative Alternators.   The very substantial energy a vehicle has to absorb in braking has to be considered.  It,s not new to harness this energy, B.M.W. are doing it as well as others.

Driving habits in some would have to change.

Connecting alternators through electromagnetic clutches to accessible driven areas of the vehicle.  The alternators are engaged anytime the driver lifts his foot off the accelerator pedal  .....  disengaged  when the pedal is again depressed  (A microswitch activated by the pedal ahead of any throttle response) .

It takes very little energy to operate these clutches & 12 & 24 volt DC  units  are very common in industry & not expensive when found in scrapyards. I found two & they cost me peanuts.

Coupling a number of alternators to my little engine, I'm afraid would overload the thing &  I have to consider alternatives.

[Bob]

Well, Yah there is that... but for us normal folk hooking a altenator tothe breaking system is out of the question, its too complicated and gives too small of a return for the effort... a prop on the roof driveing the altenator would give you more  than that...
especially if you go long distances and not just town driveing.
....
Oddly enough it doesn't take all that much to turn an altenator untill you load it down...
I remember hooking a lawn mower engine to an altenator and when I finally got the darn engine to pull the load  and hooked it to a battery it killed the engine in 2 revoultions! ... talk about realy good brakes ! HAHAHAHHAHA
....
thats when I found out that a 200 amp altenator takes about 8hp to 10 hp at full load... and I had 2 or 3hp.... so I gave up the idea...
a 65to 75 amp altenator thats commonly found on autos now days takes up to 5hp but should be no more than that....  so obviously one big 200amp altenator is more efficient than 2 small ones, but
you get the picture ...
  I still think the adaptation that the feller in Mother earth News did back in the 1980's was super slick... he took a 24 volt forklift motor, mounted it in a volkswaggon bug, took out the back seat and put in a row of large Telephone co. batteries ( Nicads I think)  found that he could go 60mph with the thing... and it had a substancial range... but that was not goodenough for him... behind the back seat in the space behind the back rest he mounted a pony motor turning a charger that charged the batteries as he drove along... he got over 100mpg  and the car drove normially except that the acceleration was much better than the stock vw.... the pony motor he used was somethng like a 18hp motor and the generator was hudge in watts/amps, I don't remember the details ... but it worked fantastically....
so it was far superrior way back then to anything that we have NOW.... thats progress for you !
....the artical went into great detail and it was in motherearth news... the month and year  I can't remember, but there was a vw bug on the cover!
....
...
not only did this guys adaptation work well it had an unlimited range, unfortionately he removed the gas tank for electronic controls (PWM and such) so he no longer had a big gastank for the pony motor and he eas restricted to a 200 mile range ( 2 gallon gas tank) but he was quite happy with that !
....
so the idea of these new electric cars are not new by any means and I bet a feller could do better now days with the equipment available, and the small cars !
...
its a thought!
Bob.......

[janmarsh]

Some very forward thinking guys from back then.

  It was also covered in Mother Earth News in the late 70's how a small car (Opel I think it was)  could be driven with a jet engine starter motor,  small mower engine & a bank of batteries.

 The guys devised their own circuitry to use the motor as a generator whenever the vehicle  braked. 

             On the topic of alternative energy sources..........  It was also at this time a very interesting test was made just off the Hawaiian Islands.  President Carter was in power & was a great supporter of alternative energy research.  He even had an array of solar panels installed at The White House when he moved in.

O.T.E.C.   Ocean Thermal Energy Convertion worked on the temperature difference of the surrounding sea, 40 degrees f  at depth, 80 degrees f at the surface or thereabouts.
The final tests were made from a converted old liberty ship I think. A very large tube decended from the ship to the depths  & and a massive Heat Pump was driven onboard ship.
The test results exceeded expectations.

I was onboard a telephone cable repair ship, forward of the test ship when it returned to Honolulu.  The Captain joined us onboard that evening & explained the impressive results.
Sadly, this all coincided with Reagan taking power.  The project was killed off by his administration.

The White House solar panels ?  They were also quickly removed.

[Bob]

Well, we wouldn't want to spoil the view after all... <GRIN>
...
I've alwayse thought a Wave generator would be the answer for unlimited electrical power
... as the waves bob the coils up and down by the perminant magnets, they produce electricity
...its so simple a child can make one... enough of these would power anything electric
but you don't see it in use !
...
typical I suppose !
....
Bob...

[janmarsh]

Bob,
      The very thing you are referring to was devised by a Professor Salter here in UK some years ago.

"Salters Duck" used wave power & had potential.   It turned out his test results were negatively falsified by a pro nuclear interest prior to being considered.

Those massive winter waves hitting Hawaii hold enormous energy.

[Bob]

Yah I know they work and work fairly good I made one years ago and put it in a small creek at the Ranch
and it put out something like 5 to 8 vac which I rectified and fed to a meter... that was about it
the small waves in the creek left me thinking that the ocean was the best place for it...
I then moved to a Under slung powered water wheel made from a bicycle wheel and a bicycle 6v generator... took a week to build up enough fall to power it and the first rain took out all my hard work so I gave that up , but it worked real well. it needed more cups on the rim though ! HAHAHA!
...
sense then I devised a Bicycle rim Generator useing 2 12vdc bicycle generators and 2" pvc pipe sections and caps attached to the rim.... on a 27" bike front wheel.
the pipe cups are sercisely aimed into a 3" piece of ABS pipe where the top half is cut off where the cups come in contact with the water.... there would be more than plunty of power if the 3" pipe can be cept full of water and the speed would be fairly fast chargeing a bunch of batteries easily...
but I havn't made it, just one of those, maybe one of these days things ! HAHAHHA
 ...

the water wheel I made here is a 6" diam 2" wide Underslung deal that is on a 1.24" solid steel axel
dangleing over the year round creek... its not fast but I calculated its HP at 24 to 26HP on a good day
but I've never used it for anything ...unfortionately
...
the PE&E company came out and told me I can't do that, steeling electricity from their creek and I laughed at him and said what makes you think its YOUR creek ? but he was addimant he had the USE RIGHTS of the water... and I assured him he didn't ... and he said well I'll go back and check and if we do We'll see you in court ... I said Fine !
 never hurd a thing from them after that...and my neighbor said "yah PG&E has been useing scare tactics on every one here trying to use the water..."
not that it hurts them in the slightest but because they think they can !
...tatics like that make me want to put the water well to use and give the electricity free to my neighbors ! HAHAHAHA turning a 25KW generator would be easy for it if I geared it up with a car transmition... but my neighbors are such jerks I wouldn't give them the time of day!
and I don't want to mess with it now ...the water is too cold ! HAHAHAHAHA
....
Bob.....

[janmarsh]

The active involvement of the Powers-That-Be to deter the likes of yourself with your bicycle wheel & Prof. Salter with his Duck only shows that you both have them worried.   I love it.    HaHa

[Manta]

Bob,
Why don't you use the wheel to charge a battery bank then use a dc to 240 ac inverter for your lights etc.
don't throw away free energy.

Manta

[Bob]

Thats what I bought the 2500watt inverter for actually.... but I have too many things going and not enough parts to get the thing to work good and all that.... you know the story....
HAHAHAHA
Bob.........