Automotive Alternators

[candyman55]

Hey guys,
I have been reading this thing over and over, and someone smarter than me is going to have to help. I am thinking that we can use something like this in conjunction with our existing alternators to help power our cells. I am not convinced that it will work totally but for the guys with the generators in the tool box idea, it may have some merit.

http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_6/chpt_4/8.html

I think I am going to try it out as soon as I can find another altermator (I only have one now)
Let me know what you think. I guess I could just be nuts. On the other hand i am pretty sure of it. 

[Bob]

Ummm "something like this" ... like what ? all I saw was a guy playing with altenators <grin>
what do you have in mind ?
...
Bob...

[candyman55]

If you have a second alternator, modify it as you modified the first one, connecting five of your own wires to the field brushes and stator line terminals, respectively. You can then use it as a three-phase motor, powered by the first alternator.

Connect each of the three-phase line wires of the first alternator to the respective wires of the second alternator. Connect the field wires of one alternator to a 6 volt (or 12 volt) battery. This alternator will be the generator. Wrap rope around the sheave in preparation to spin it. Take the two field wires of the second alternator and short them together. This alternator will be the motor:

Back to the picture: Is there anyway to make the generator ( possibly with the addition of a small 12V motor to start it instead of a rope) Power the second alternator ( motor) and produce any useable voltage?

[Bob]

You should ask Him Candyman  I realy do not know...
but I do know a generator made into a morot is a lousie motor.... it makes a better altenator than it does a motor......
so actually I see no sense in it...its not like you will be able to hook one altenator to the other and spin it and get enough electricity to power the motor to spin it more ect,etc...
the laws of conservation in this case will take their toll and your end results will be no spin at all.
yet alone be able to spin the altenator with the altenator motor and get extra power out of it
it just ain't going to happen....although you may experiment with it and find a way to get around the losses...
 I remember reading in a Popular Mechanics mag. years ago of an inventer who made such a device that was supposed to be able to make electricity 120vac and was vurtually self sustaining...
the Swiss inventer was all set to market the suitcase sized generator to the public and that was the last I hurd of it... it produced 5000watts of 120vac and needed no fuel...
a perfect answer for todays needs... but alas that is the way it goes... he probly got knocked off by the big oil companies or PG&E ...hehehehehhe
they were slated to cost a whopping $10,000 to $15,000 way back when.... so I figured no one would buy one even if they did mass produce them !
....< the greedy Human syndrome strikes yet again!>
...
I bring that up because the suitcase was supposed to contain one motor  2 altenators and a flywheel
and a DC to AC inverter.... I believe a small motorcycle battery was used in it as well but not positive... it was way back in the Mid 1970's if memory serves me correctly.
...
however the artical went on to explain that its impossable to do what he has clamed he has done, yet he done it ! HAHAHHAHAHA they also mentioned that they would do a follow up artical on it, but nothing like it ever showed up again.... probly like the Mayers thing and even though it worked just fine they down played it and made him look like a fool !
.... makes a person wonder who pays these writers uh ?
...
Bob.....

 

[numberonekiwi]

Hey Bob I think this is totally plausible we are looking at the near future of 100% hydroxy in a car so It could be said 100% hydroxy on a generator actually this is more possible in my opinion I am not sure what size engine  it would take to power a 10KW genny but about 13 HP would do the trick I think ( how many CC ) if we were to take 1.2KW of that power to an hho cell that 12v @ 100A could net us something in the region of 8 to 10 LPM enough I am sure to run 13HP engine I would imagine even a 500 CC engine would be easily able to do this job and feeding it 8 -10 LPM would almost mean 100% hydroxy

But then again running a genny 24/7 how long would it last - maybe you would need several units that ran at alternate times

just another theory

but as for the alternator theory I am thinking of something for hydroxy cells along the lines of 3 phases / 3 cell banks AC freq varied with motor speed ? thinking still brain clicking over   ROFLOL

[Tink]

Guys,
Can anyone refresh my memory as to what the difference between the old 'generators' used in the older cars and trucks and the modern alternator? Reason I'm asking is I found one out in the barn. It has 12V stamped on it and the alternator/generator guru in town wants $130 to rebuild it. I was wondering if it would be usable as a wind gererator or to use in our HHO production. I'm going to rebuild it myself, heck maby all it needs is new brushes.

 As to a previous post. In my experience a 10KW generator requires a 18 to 20 hp engine to produce 120volts. The portable ones ware out with continued use. You gotta get an industrial one to last 24/7. The better ones rev at 1800rpm and are desiel. These cost minimum $6,000.

Any coments are, as always, appriciated,
Tink

[hydrotinkerer]

The main difference is internal or externally regulated. What kind of alt. is it or vehicle it goes on(if known). Any part numbers on it would help.

[LarryW]

If I am remembering right, generators produce DC, alternators produce AC.  For what ever reason it is better to produce ac current and convert it to dc then  to produce straight dc.  I think it was the low rpms with the generators would allow the lights to dim.  Maybe AC voltage is easier to produce at lower rpms???  Or maybe easier to control a constant voltage???

[Bob]

Hay Tink !
I too have a Old 12vdc generator ( not an altenator)  it is perfect for a wind generator because it has Perminant magnets in it and will charge by just spinning it.
as Hydrotinkier mentioned it needs a Voltage regulator  in order to work right...
I was in the process of hooking it to my water wheel in the year round creek but never got it done!
...got the water wheel but nuttin' else done ! HAHAHAHA
...
you can make a wind generator out of that Old car generator fairly easy by mounting 4 to 6 blades on the pully but that is usually fairly ineficient as it takes a real strong wind to get up enough RPM so
useing a idlier shaft and mounting the blades on it and then drive the generator with a conventional v-belt for a step up in RPM seams to work the best ! a 3 or 4:1 ratio works good with 6 ft blades
this is a big unit but charges very very well !
the unit needs to spin 360 degrees on its horozonal axis to face the wind so slip rings are usually used and brushes just like in the generator...
the voltage Regulator ( found in a wrecking yard now days)  can be mounted in the battery shed
...
its a big project... but well worth it if you have allot of wind... unfortionately I don't on the ranch and will probably go with a wind turbine instead. vertically oriented so it catches wind in every direction. sort'a like a wind speed gauge <grin> geared way down so even the slightest wind moves it is the way to go with these type !
...
an Alternator requires power to energize the electromagnets inside it
a generator Has perminant magnets in it so no outside power is needed....
all in all a Alternator is by far a better charger than a generator
if I were to build one today I'ed go with 2-200amp alternators ( GM type) and hook them to 12 ft Rotor blades mount it 100' up on a tower and charge a bank of Home made batteries...
and buy the biggest DC to ac inverter I could find .... but that all costs money which I havn't got so I am reduced to dreaming about it ! HAHAHHHA

[LarryW]

an Alternator requires power to energize the electromagnets inside it
a generator Has perminant magnets in it so no outside power is needed....

Hey Bob,
  GM has a 1 wire alternator that is self energizing.  If I dig around I think I can find out how to convert any gm delco into a 1 wire alternator.  I do believe there was a problem with it not energizing with racers using the power pulleys that slow everything down.  I remember something that can be done internally with the alternator to make it energize at a slower rpm too though.

[Bob]

hehehe OOOK goes to show ya I don't know everything ! HAHAHHAHA
thanks for the info !
these things change so fast anymore.... that or i'm just getting old and can't keep up ! HAHAHHA!
Bob.......

[LarryW]

OK, found the site.  Lots of alternator info.    

http://mightymo.org/Proj_OneWire.html

[LarryW]

I had some problems once with the starter/generator on my Internation Cub Cadet.  It is both the starter and a generator.  Anyways I believe the generator stuff is pretty much the same for all generators but here are the links to both the starter/gen. and the 3 pole regulator.  It may/maynot help but it give you an idea of the workings behind the generator.

Starter/generator
http://www.simpletractors.com/service/electrics/starter-generator.htm

3 pole regulator
http://www.simpletractors.com/service/electrics/3_pole_regulators.htm

How its all wired up.  This is the schematic for whole tractor but...
http://ihregistry.com/wiring/C33.pdf

[randy]

built a waterwheel for a buddy years ago, he's still using it, chopped up an old 10 speed bicycle and used gears to get the rpm"s right, he says it's still working great.

[geezer]

just a thought take it for what it is worth. visit some wind gen sites seams like some of them use low rpm 800 to 1100 rpm 12 to 24 V DC motors for generators.