Running on a combination of HHO & Cellulose Thinner ?

[janmarsh]

Here in UK petrol now costs £1.35 per litre. I can purchase Cellulose Thinner £16 per 20ltr. can.

I have often wondered about using it as a fuel, I then came across this comment by a chemist:


Quote:
                     Ok, cellulose thinner is a mixture of ethanol, propanol, butanol, and
ethyl/prolpyl/butyl acetate. Compared to petrol, it's practically
drinkable! (don't drink it - this is just a comparison)

It won't dissolve neoprene and it won't contaminate oil (where the hell
did that come from anyway?).

What you do lose with it is a certain amount of lubricity that you get
from petrol. Petrol is a mixture of hundreds of compounds, most of them
alkanes. The longer chain alkanes provide a bit of lubrication to the
fuel pump, the (carb/injectors) and the upper engine.

The problems you will experience running on cellulose thinner are the
same you'd experience running on LPG or ethanol - slightly increased
wear in the bits I mentioned. Not to any huge degree, but worth mentioning.

Other problems you may experience include pre-detonation, so you may
need to adjust your timing to suit, and hot/cold running, depending on
your mixture.

Cellulose thinner is a much more refined product than petrol, and costs
a lot more to produce. The reason it's cheaper to buy is of course
because of the tax on petrol. Petrol is less refined, but in many ways
this makes it a better fuel - there's no point in putting a huge effort
into refining something which you're just going to burn.

[Bob]

its a very sad state of affairs when taxes make a more refined product cheaper than a less refined product..... but its not the first time that has happened
....
if you do run that thinner in your car it might be a good idea to add about 1/4 quart of 2 cycle oil to a tank full of gas thinner mix.... the 2 cycle oil can be the cheapest stuff you can find... or lacking that a bit of automatic trans fluid, or normal engine oil....  just something to give it some slickness
you don't need much ! .... and too much will screw things up....
  Keep in mind that your emission control system will DIE very soon doing this...
  ITS SIMPLY NOT WORTH IT in California.... a catalytic converter will set you back Hundreds of dollars
and that would buy lots of regular gasoline and not thinner!
...
 before you do mix that thinner Know what it will do to the emission control stuff , or you may be out thousands of bucks !
...
Bob.........

[randy]

I'd get an older vehicle with a carburetor so that you have easier metering control, then as Bob said, mix 100 to 1 ratio with 2 stroke oil, then you don't have to worry about catalytic converter or too much in the line of emissions control, sounds like it'd be worth doing but you wouldn't want too many people doing it or the price would skyrocket on you.

[janmarsh]

I certainly agree with what you both say.  My HHO project car was built from 1967 to 1975 so has a very basic engine, twin cylinder,single carb.,SOHC with no sensors of any sort.

By it's nature, thinner is far more vaporous than petrol. I was wondering about pre heating & pressurising to a semi gas prior to introduction....... lubrication would still have to be considered as you have pointed out.  The carb. would have to be removed & replaced with a form of metering system.    With a 600cc engine capacity,  things are on a much smaller scale than what you guys are dealing with so costs should be less as long as I don't find pistons flying out of the engine   

[Bob]

LOL !
when I was a KId I had a  1959 Fieot 500  that's a 500cc air cooled engine twin cylinder 4 stroke.... Kind'a wish I had that car now   I tell ya! .... anyway its top speed was around 45mph but has serious point problems... you had to mess with it every time you wanted to go somewhere!  I used it to drive to the bus stop 2 miles away and half the time it wouldn't start ! HAHAHAHHA
 was a fun little car though... had a low gear that was really cool ! you could climb up our dirt road easy.... but if you had to get a RUN to get through the MUD you were out'a luck ! HAHHAHAHA
...
...
we got 41mpg out of it when it would run long enough to get some sort of a MPG reading, had a 5 gal gas tank and you could wind it out in 4th gear and get as fast as 50mph !
.... my honda 500cc would out run it any day of the week but it was DRY inside that little car...unlike the 50cc honda ! LOL
...
a 2LPM hydroxy generator on that car would have really been something ! bet you could get 75MPG with it !
HAHAHHA
Bob......

[Brad4321]

If it won't contaminate oil...does that mean it won't mix with oil? If so, adding some 2-stroke oil or the like wouldn't work.

Adding a bit of lubricity (a bit, very small amount) won't hurt a fuel injected engine one bit. Those of us with old diesels do tricks like this to lube our fuel systems since the hippies pulled all of the lubricity out of diesel. I add a small bottle of 2 stroke oil per tank, not sure the size..about a 1/2 cup, per tank. At this ratio I get a bit of blue smoke from the oil. This is just fine for a diesel, but if you tried a similar ratio on gas fuel injection it would plug it up in short order....maybe a tablespoon per tank.

I don't know anything about Cellulose Thinner, but I do have one recommendation: pure ethanol. Yes, ethanol will eat the seals from old cars, but anything 90's on up should be fine, some cars down into the 80's. The fuel companies have been pumping our gas full of ethanol for a while now and cars have been compatible long before that. Ethanol will burn at a faster rate (has less BTU's), so you will also have to up the fueling a bit, but HHO could take care of that and then some. You can distill ethanol fairly cheap once you get a good recipe going, and it doesn't cost much to convert any vehicle over. Running a still isn't legal everywhere, especially in the US without a fuel permit, and I wouldn't ever advise doing something illegal (and I sure wouldn't do it myself), but it is quite possible and can be done quite cheap. The octane rating is quite nice too. My drag truck runs on pure alcohol, bought legally of course, for the octane boost alone.

[janmarsh]

UK Petrol price update.

I am now paying £1.37 per litre.   That works out to £5.18 ( US $8.35 ) per US gallon.

I will have to pick up one of two things very soon, the ability to run my car on HHO or a gun......  The major revolution against the banksters could well be seen here first folks !   This ain't funny.
 
                                                                          Marshall.

[randy]

Good lord, you're getting fleeced, I am sure it's fixing to happen here too, the US governments spending habits have put us so far in debt the country can't even pay the intrest, the value of the dollar is going to diminish, other countries will no longer accept the dollar, things are going to get bad in a hurry, we probably all need to build stills and run on alcohol, that I know for sure will run a vehicle. My best guess to run hho exclusively we need pressurized storage along with constant production, sounds scary to me, hauling around an H-bomb.

[Bob]

OOOH OUCH !
 that just ain't right ! if it comes to that here I won't be driving anywhere !  I'll buy a bicycle!
and peddle the 20 miles to town !
GADS !
hang in there Marshall !
...
heck, at that cost you could buy wood or coal and go with a wood gas setup  for far less money by far!
... WOODGAS is a alternitive !  that or go electric !
...

Bob...

[Manta]

Marshall,

Morrisons put up the price of Diesel by 1 P per litre the day before the tax decrease.  Then,  as expected,  they reduced it by 1 P the day after.

£1.36.9/Litre at the moment.

I could use the bus (Free pass) if it weren't for having to take my wife to and from work.  I hardly ever use the car for my own interests.  Maybe I should ask her to pay for her fuel ?

Bad Idea !

Dave,
(Manta)

[randy]

Here it comes, Just read about impending government shutdown in the US near future, it has to happen, government can't continue the way it is, it's our government causing economic collapse here, their greed is finally catching up to us, were going to get screwed, the taxpayer is going to foot the bill, times are fixing to get real hard here.

[Bob]

HAy ! its Manta !  long time no see Manta...i've missed your input !
...
Randy.... I dunno what you hurd but it don't sound good at all.... care to explain ?
...
...
My wife just retired , and things are tight here but we'll get by.... it seams likely that all hell will break loose now.... just seams to be the way life treets us ! LOL
...
Bob....

[janmarsh]

Bob, Dave,Randy,    Bob Chapman's forcaster site has a very good name in being accurate................ it's an uncomfortable read.

                                  http://theinternationalforecaster.com/

                               Marshall.

[randy]

Uncomfortable as it may be, it's happening, you can only borrow and spend so much, our government spends with impunity, when they find their out of funds, their solution is to print more money. Most of that money has gone to government itself, congressmen write their own payroll, the rich buy out congress so that they don't pay a fair amount leaving the debt on the taxpayer, but now were so far in debt we can't even pay the interest on the borrowed money, any foreign investor still holding US dollars is now scrambling to get rid of them before they take a huge loss, I figure everything will double in price, maybe more, and do it quickly, our government is to blame, they drove businesses out by taxation and made it much more appealing to have products produced in other countries, our GNP is non existant because of this, therefore we have little value in the world economy. 

[Manta]

HI guys,

Yes,  things are looking rather grim for the furure.  I just glad I'm not a young fella who is just starting out in life and has to find a good job with security,  buy a house etc.

What we (as a family) are feeling most is the increased cost in food. Up adout 15% over the last few month I'd say.  I am making a greater effort in the garden this year. Even if it means a larger than usual vegey mix in our diet;  at least we'll stay fed.

Anyway, I'm way off topic here.

Keep warm, keep fed,  keep busy.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

I agree Manta ! being a young twerp now days would be super hard!
I am planning on making some "GROW Boxes" for the garden sense the wife has retired officially now
she can be the garden keeper ! I'll put her to work ! LOL
...
 off the subject here but I hope you're doing ok there Manta for a while there you didn't post at all
and I hope its not your health failing ya ! , nuttin' to post about is completely diferent and hits us all ! LOL !
...
 if you can find a book called "the Postage stamp garden book" grab it it is really a fantastic book and will put you in veggies year round and only take minimal time!
... that's what I have in mind but I dunno if I'll accomplish it!  hehehehehe
I have some planks I milled out of logs up by the saw mill and think I'll use them to make the boxes
....
 I'm not too sure I have the excess water to power a garden though and it would be a shame to get stuff half grown and then can't water it any more in the summer!
oh well.... no way to tell but do it I guess ! HAHAHAH
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Bob,

Thanks for your concern.  No,  no problems due to age etc;  they may come later, (hopefully much later). Every now and then I tend to get just engrossed on some other occupation and don't post anywhere.  Then I get around to wondering what has been going on,  and rejoin the fray.

Staying off topic,  Maybe if you set up all your gardening in boxes,  and mulch over the surface to reduce evaporation,  you could find enough water to see you through the summer. Make the boxes about two foot deep and put plastic in the bottom.  No need to water the whole desert.

I think I once mentioned that I had an interest in hydroponics, the gravel bed kind of system. That is probably the way to go in your area. Knock up a couple of troughs and give it a try. Much easier for you wife as there is no digging involved.

I've started using my daughter and grandkids as free labour for the heavy work, Probably a law against that,  but I feed them on Sunday,  so they don't complain.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

lol  Good job on the grandKids !  keep them workin' ! HAHAHAH!
...
I got one box made  yesterday... its 11ft by 5 ft and about 18" high....
I was just going to fill it with POND SOIL, that's about the most fertile we have around here !
no cows or horses to mix manure into the soil so it will have to be mulch over the top !
... good idea on the plastic.... glad you thought of that !  that SHOULD take a big load off the water end of the affair by lining it with plastic ! good thinking ! glad I haven't added any dirt in it yet ! I'll get some plastic tarp and line it first then put in the best soil I can find on the 20acers !
.... I have some gravel I could line the bottom with for drainage... dunno how toxic the gravel might be though ! I think its crushed stone ...not gravel bed gravel and that may be hard on plants!
...
it sure wouldn't be too hard to add a plastic top to that grow-box and make it a greenhouse!  <grin>
... a good salid is really hard to beat on a hot summers day ! hahahahaha
... if I keep thinking like that I'll have grow boxes all over the place here ! HAHAHAHA
things like GOOD "tomatoes",and "butter patatoes" for fried patatoes! ...fresh "green unions" !
Acorn Squash.... Corn on the Cob ! ...... Drool, drool....man I could have a feast every night if I had enough grow boxes ! .... and I can keep the critters out of them !!!!
I may have to get an electric fence to keep the deer out of the grow box... but that is do-able !
sooo much easier than fighting them because they will not stay out when they smell those veggies!
once they get zapped by the electric fence they stay out !  ...heck it'll even keep the dogs out of it ! HAHAHAHA and they fear nothing!
...


hay we're trying to figure out how to make a "Current limiter" on another thread ! your just the man for the job !

Bob...

 

[janmarsh]

Back with more doom & gloom folk's........... sorry.

Watch the video link & try & get your head's around what may be coming to the western world very soon.......... I am having real trouble trying to appreciate the enormity of this.

                               http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psF8BOi1XpA

[Bob]

um...all I got was a music being played... i suppose I was supposed to be able to understand it but I couldn't....so I turned it off
  whats it say anyway ?
....
Bob......

 

[Manta]

Not the first time we've had these kind of predictions.  I doubt that there will be a major bank collapse as they predict.  Maybe lose a bank or two.  Maybe it's just some one trying to start a Northern Rock style run.

I interested in  what they were saying about Greece.  I got back from there last Tuesday.  Many things have gone up in price by about 8%.  Petrol is now close to UK prices.

One thing they have done on the island of Santorini (where I go) is to levy a 2 Euro charge to go on the volcano. It is now classed as an archaeological site.  Not a bad little earner as there must be thousands of visitors every day to see it.

Our Fuel price for Diesel has dropped back to £1.36 / Litre.

And I have returned to work.  So my retirement didn't last so long. Working just mornings. Gives me twenty hours a week;  which isn't to be sneezed at. Things must be looking up a bit.

Dave
(Manta)

[janmarsh]

More off topic doom & gloom from me folks !

My last few weeks have been taken up with withdrawing various pension investments valued in fiat currencies & buying Gold & Silver bullion ( Silver is the best electrical conductor of any metal............. wonder how it would perform in one of our cells ?   Ha Ha ).

Seriously ............ The poop is about to hit the fan, American folks vote for Ron Paul in 2012 & give him a triple layered armed guard,  he is going to need it, the bankers know they cannot buy him.   Over here in Europe, we may see financial disintergration before you guys but you wont be far behind sadly !

                                                       http://www.zerohedge.com/contributed/great-collapse-has-officially-begun

[Manta]

Janmarsh,

Problem with investing in gold etc is that,  like a house,  it is only worth what you can get for it at the time you want to sell.

I'm more concerned about the straey steady incremental increase in the price of food and energy.  Everyone has to eat and keep warm in winter. This winter promises to be very expensive.
Been doing some calculations,  and I really can't afford to go back into proper retirement yet.  I was considering doing this next january and just spending my time as I wish. But the figures don't stack up right.

I don't have a mortgage to worry about.  bought my house years ago,  but it's just going to get too hard.

I really fell for those who are stuck on a standard state pension only.

Diesel is still £1.36 / Litre up here.

Dave
(Manta)

[janmarsh]

Dave,
 I read with interest you had returned to work part-time.  Part of my silver purchase is in the form of one ounce coins. The Bank of England is now copying  the US Fed. & printing money as if there is no tomorrow, at least the silver will hold it's value & rise compared to pounds sterling. 

 I'm concentrating on a cheap solid fuel energy source & I've had solar panels for over 30 years. I totally agree, those who have just a basic state pension  are going to feel things bad.

I am not so much getting in to precious metals, rather I'm getting out of pension investments based in paper money.  Very interesting times ahead.


                                                                         Marshall.

[janmarsh]

This link explains my actions in puchasing metals.

                              http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gr5dzx5kxCo

[Manta]

Marshall,

The kingworld link won't load.

I'll take a look at the youtube one later tonight.

I don't know if you watch the BBC program 'Bang goes the theory'  but if not you aught to take a look at last nights episode.  It shows a practical demonstration of reclaiming gold from PCs etc.

Lots of nasty chemicals involved; you'll love it.

It should be on BBC iplayer. or some other catchup.

Dave
(Manta)

[janmarsh]

Dave, Unable to find that particular program at the moment although another in the series has just shown me how to make diamonds with an oxy- acetylene torch........ Ha Ha !