Iron bloom(red stuff)

[hydrotinkerer]

I did a test and didn't know it. I built a smack hybrid performed ok. I always had a problem with red stuff after about a week of running.
The gen put out .7lpm at 15amps. The temp would run 125-140*F. I also used switch plates from Lowes. All of them had a grade on them of 304.

I got irritated at it because of having to clean after about a week. I took it apart and built a dry cell out of the same plates.
This gen puts out .6lpm at 5.5amps. The temp on it runs 105*F tops. The dry cells been running for 2 almost 3 weeks and no red stuff.

I used the same parts in each gen. The only difference between the two gens are the housings and the temperature they run. I believe the "red stuff" either came from the heat leaching iron from the plates or from the housings. I have a hard time thinking it came from the housing. Any ideas?

 

[randy]

All right I gotta ask "what's a dry cell"

[Bob]

My guess is its junk leaching out of the plates or bolts in the water... if you got it all out in the first round of tests then that explains why it quit making more...
I have had times of green goo and one instance of red goo  and many instances of COFFEE brown electrolite....
I am fairly certain its from the KOH as I switched to Lemonaid and got rid of it completely
...switched back to KOH  and the coffee brown came back too...even after a Muriac Acid bath.
so now I have lemonaid Koolaid in the cell and its workin great again !
...
try a Muriac Acid bath at 100% for 10 to 20 minutes...it helped my cells a bunch!
got rid of all the discoleration and made them shinnie once again !... their dirty because of the KOH again but I havn't got arround to giveing them another bath !
... that stuff works good ! ( the acid!...how ever ya spell it! HAHAHAH)
...
Bob......

[Justin Frye]

so does the koolaid give off any kind of discoloration or goo? should i use this instead of koh because the koolaid is readily available.  i also want to know what a dry cell is.





-justin

[hydrotinkerer]

Dry cell is just what some of the other forums call a Tero, Modified tero, Flooded tero etc. I have put together 4 different sizes and they work great. The smallest is 4.75x3, 19 plates and the largest is 10.5x7.5, 7 plates.

Where do you get muratic(hydrochloric)acid? I'll try cleaning my plates with it. I wonder if it would help to clean a brand new set of plates with muratic acid before they are ever used?

[Bob]

Justin :in my experience Lemonaid Koolaid is just as good as KOH, and it has some better points to it that KOH cannot boast... it smells good, its non toxic and it makes no goo at all and does not discolor the water except a slight yellow color ...
  where the KOH is VERY toxic, discolors to a dark coffee brown and coats the plates it won't produce a goo unless the metal leaches it into the water... then it will badly.
but if the plates and all are conditioned well the KOH runs clean as well....
it will foam a bit but so will Lemmonaid....
I sujest you use the Lemonaid because it is available and it produces no goo and keeps the plates clean... I can't say that for KOH so that is why I switched back to lemonaid myself !
....
from a super clean acid cleaned cell I put in KOH and the next day it was coffee colored water...
so I drained it out and noticed the cell plates were already gold anodized colored on every other one...  what I JUST GOT RID OF ! so realy I should clean the cell again... as the KOH dirtyied it up badly !
...

 Hydrotinkier: I think it would help new plates a bunch !
I picked up 2 gallons of Muratic Acid for $8.98 at Lowes hardware in their Pool supply section... they use it often in swimming pools !
...
Gotcha' on the Tero-Cell/Dry cell  connection thank you !
..


Bob

[Justin Frye]

sounds like lemon koolaid it is. how much should i use for say a gallon of water?






-justin

[randy]

go get about $5 worth, dump about 5 packets in, activate cell and let it warm up, then add until you reach your target amps, take your time and let it mix well, the amount you need depends on the build configuration of the cell. I've read that many other electrolytes loose their output, but I haven't seen a drop in about 3000 miles. although I had a problem with the vehicles electrical system, I bought a dual rectifier kit for my stock alternator and installed it, but I failed to upgrade the stock fuse link, it burnt out and took out the ignition module in the distributor, my next step "when I get time" is to completely isolate the hydroxy system from the vehicles electrical system.

[Bob]

Did you not install the 200amp altenator Randy ? or just pu grade the one in the truck ?
... is that the next step in ISOLATING the system ? install its own Altenator ?
... good idea !
...
Bob.......

[randy]

that shiny 200 amp alternator is still in the box it came in, in order to control the heat I'm only running those 6 cells at 40-45 amps, it seems to be very stable in that configuration, when I get time I'll build another unit just like it and power the same way, I intend to install the 200 amp alternator to power cells independent of the trucks electrical system, WHEN I GET THE TIME hahahhahah

[hydrotinkerer]

Bob, Thanks for the info on the muratic acid.

[Bob]

Ahhh... Ok gotcha Randy !
sounds like you're going to need some sort of a Cooler when you push 120 amps !
...
Hydrotinkier:
 No problem thats what I'm here for ! <GRIN>
I can't help much but I try ! HAHAHHAHA!
Bob......

[wess]

My thoughts on the red stuff....for what its worth..lol. I used distilled water & KOH & had a slight yellowing of the water. I tried plain tap water (I ran out of distilled) & got tons of red foam almost immediatly. So Fishers thoughts about water impurities I believe is correct. The more impurities in water the more goop...lol...The only pure water I believe is ionized water. Chemists use it in labs.

[candyman55]

Use rain water its free. I use rainwater and experience virtualy no red goo or foam. I just got another batch last night. 

[IronBear]

The red stuff should be a mixture of Ferric Oxide and minute amounts of trace elements that are by products of the production of SS. The red is MOST LIKELY Iron coumpounds in the water you used reacting with the freed Iron compounds in the SS. These will form a light sludge or a heavy one depending on how much Iron you have in your water. I used 304 SS and distilled water. My first change out had a slight layer of red crud in the bottom. Havent seen it since. If I remember my chemistry correctly ( which I probably dont) you should have a higher yield of Ferric Oxide with a greater amount of amps/higher concentration of KOH.

I havent seen the coffee grounds yet. I wouldnt mind getting a sample to ask the boys about. The green goo should either be a chlorine compound or possibly a nickel compound. I think...

One of the biggies to watch for is the first batch of electrolyte fluid you change. It has the highest chance of containing Hexavalent Chromium, which we know to be bad for you. Your first change out should be placed in a safe container and delivered to your local waste plants for safe disposal. I had a friend in the Chem labs estimate the percentage and he said it would be very small, but its still nothing to sneeze at.  Better safe than sorry.

[hydrotinkerer]

IronBear,
         Is ferric oxide conductive? If so then having it in your cells it could short the plates together.

[IronBear]

I dont think Ferric Oxide is conductive. Actually I dont think any oxides are conductive...I would have to check.
Since Ferric Oxide ( AKA Rust) tends to dissipate in water, it would have a hard time shorting plates.

[hydrotinkerer]

Might make a cell run hot from no circulation, maybe?

[Too Many Secrets]

I've been working on a sealed cell and couldn't get enough amps thru it with the amount of KoolAid I had on hand. So I went with Lye, added 30 tablespoons to about a liter of distilled. Worked fantastic for a couple hours then amps hit the 30a mark. Couldn't figure out, but finially saw I had a dead short. Pulled the thing apart and to my horror, it is all black and looks like an old drain pipe. caroaded and crud everywhere. I had nothing put stainless, drain pan liner (for gaskets) and distilled and lye in there.

I will never use lye in place of KoolAid again. I just need to find KoolAid sold by the lbs...

[hydrotinkerer]

Were you using pure Naoh? When I used it in my dry cell it never did that. I wonder if it was a mixture of koolaid and lye. Do you know what your output was before it tanked?

[Bob]

How many times  have you Read, "Don't use anything with SALT IN IT" A bunch no doubt !
Lye is Sodium(salt) Hydroxide.... it is unsuitable for Use in making Hydroxy gas!
YES, Many people recommend it, including the SmackBooster site but do yourself a favor
and put that stuff down the drain where it belongs ! <GRIN>
...
 Ok enough preaching!...heheheheh
...
Most Lye or drain cleaners CONTAIN Sodium Hydroxide... ( look at the labels!)
KOH is Potassium Hydroxide   a totally different animal ! NO SALT IN IT!
...
Koolaid is a good choice but it is not very strong a conductor... after a point you cannot get the amps to rise any more...no matter how much Koolaid you add !... all electrolytes are like that... even KOH but it will peek at a higher amperage than anything I know of.
... so if your having trouble getting a set amount of amp draw out of your cell , chances are you will need to bring the plate spacing closer together in order to achieve that !
 if the gasket material is 1/8" try using a 1/16" gasket.... if your already at the thinnest you can go without the plates touching each other inside, you may be forced to use KOH.... ( Potassium Hydroxide) to get the wanted amp draw.
...

I ran into the point of not being able to raise the amp draw on a few cells so far...
series cells in the same container are good for that ! <GRIN> I ran into a block with Koolaid and with KOH Both... Koolaid peeked at something like 8 to 10 amps at full saturation of the water.  and KOH peeked at something like 22amps at full saturation of the water.... adding more chemical in either case is a waste of material as it will barely change the electrical properties at all...
at one time I had something like 55 teaspoons of KOH in my cell container, it peeked at 22 or so amps and adding another 25 or so spoon fulls only brought it up to 25 amps so it was probly all sitting in the bottom of the tank....
I used the cell in the truck and when the temp came up the amperage sky rocketed and tripped the auto-reset circuit breaker.... many times! it took me 3 days to get the Electrolyte back to a usable level...  about where I had it before the last spoonful and it peeked !
that was at 15 amps cold.... and when it warmed up it went to 30 amps hot.
after changing the 20 amp circuit breaker to a 40 amp I left it alone..and it was very consistent after that.... till it got really cold outside... then it would never warm up at all!
....I can't win I tell ya ! HAHAHHHA
Hope that helps a bit....
but do yourself a favor and do not use LYE in the cell. "Koolaid or KOH....nothing else!"
...
Bob...

[Too Many Secrets]

Were you using pure Naoh? When I used it in my dry cell it never did that. I wonder if it was a mixture of koolaid and lye. Do you know what your output was before it tanked?

There could have been some koolaid that remaned behind. I didn't take the cell apart and clean it. Lye was labled 100% pure Robetec.

As for output, I didn't have time to measure it as I was just 'burning it in' on the table with a computer PSU running it. (Don't put those things over 15 amps as the wiring wont take more then that...) But at 15a it was pumping out LOTS of bubbles. I'd guess better then 1-1.5LPM just to ballpark.

Then I thought I'd let it run a bit longer, so I needed to install on my truck. Did so, ran for a few minutes and started popping 30a fuses. Pulled apart today and... was shocked.

And the pics were taken after I had chipped some off. A couple plates were 'melded' to each other with gunk. I think it was toasted lye as when I through them in water, I saw the lye steam like when I mix up the electro. SS plates don't appear damaged or pitted. Gaskets are still usable, if not a bit mishapen.

[Bob]

I believe your HEAVY deposits are due to so much chemical added over the point of water Saturation... that point is the point where the water can no longer absorb the chemical...
adding more chemical after that point is useless...it just floats to the bottom or gets stuck in the cornors of the cell... and stays there...
so yah, it probly was "Toasted Lye" HAHAHAHAHA
 don't get that shit in your eyes ! be very carefull ! ware safty glasses when cleaning it
PLEASE !  been there done that ! it is very painfull ...believe me !
...
Bob.......

 

[hg2]

  Yep KOH is the ticket for a healthy and happy cell.I've used it for a year with very few deposits and light browning of the plates between e-lyte changes.I tear down the cell,clean the plates and refill with fresh KOH every 3 months(my cleaning and e-lyte change schedule)and after that time and thousands of miles the e-lyte is just starting to look like weak iced tea.

[hydrotinkerer]

Looks like a good canidate for a muriatic acid bath.

[Bob]

hg2: thats interesting.. in the 3 months I used my cell ( its on the bench now) at the end of the 3 months it was like expresso ! deep dark coffee color with about 2" of thicker MUD at the bottom
... thats why I opted for the Muratic Acid (or how ever ya spell it)... a good soaking at 100% made it like new again ... well as far as I could tell looking down the cap ! when I dissembled it a few weeks ago I was appaled at the condition of the cells ! it realy was very bad and that was after the cleaning
the sides where I couldn't see were realy bad and rusted over !
I can't amagon what it WAS LIKE !  because they were almost black !
...but for a while there they just looked like they were gold anodized on every other plate but that changed to almost black when it got hot.
....
I guess the length the KOH will last is dependant upon the heat you run the cell at...mine got mighty hot durring the summer...hot enough to melt some pop off caps a few times ! probly 210deg pluss !
... but thats why I say the heat effects the KOH... I didn't have the problem till it got realy hot!
...
Bob......

[wess]

In my experiments when I used LYE (NaOh) it quickly made the water (distilled) red. Within about 1 hr. the water was a dark red and when I drained the water out the red (iron) settled to the bottom. I suspect that Bob's turned a darker brown because of water impurity. (Just a guess). When I use KOH in distilled water the water only turns a light yellow (like pee..lol) even after running for hrs & hrs. Of course the more NaOh used the more Red. So use pure water & KOH. Dont use NaOh...Also, disolve the KOH in water before putting it in the generators. Clean all plates with muriatic acid and rinse well before using another formula or electrolite. Lye or NaOh is used in Cornish Type generators that only produce hydrogen from water, lye (NaOh), and aluminum....the oxygen is attracted to the aluminum & doesnt go into gas...Hope this helps.

[Bob]

Wess:
are you saying I should use NAOH and not KOH in a cornish generator to desolve the Alum. ?
or is either ok ?
...
I've never used lye except in a Outhouse... HAHAHAHA  yes I was raised where we had such a place!
...
I went to the Ace hardware store and picked up a can of lye and couldn't read the lable the type was so tiny so I had the gal at the register read it and tell me if it had Sodium Hydroxide or Potasium hydroxide in it and she eventually found that it had Sodium Hydroxide in it so I put it back !
HAHAHHA thats as close as I ever got to useing that stuff !
...
Wess You mentioned before in a PM to me that you never pore water into a chemical but pour the chemical into the water.... is that right ? or have I got it reversed ?
otherwise, the reaction can be un-predictable.
...
Bob...

[hg2]

Looks like a good canidate for a muriatic acid bath.

 Yeah HT I think I'm gonna give the muriatic acid a try on the next cleaning and e-lyte change.You guys seem to be having pretty good luck with it.The only reason I've shyed away from using it was seeing a plate conditioning post by Bob Boyce saying never to use acid when cleaning plates(he never really gave a reason not to use it).Maybe his exotic designs were more sensitive to plate preparation and conditioning.

  Bob I agree that the reason your e-lyte is darker due to the heat generated by the plates innadip design.I had the same problem with my first cell design I built the Smack cell.Bob you have quit using the creek water and switched to distilled I hope.

[wess]

Yes Bob, always pour acid s-l-o-w-l-y INTO water. (read the label) If you do it the other way it can cause a violent reaction & splash back at you. I did assay work & used pretty powerful concentrated acids like Nitric & Sulfuric. Muriatic acid you buy at the hardware store is only about 31% acid. Its not very concentrated but that doesnt mean it cant react.
   As far as the Cornish Gen. goes, Draino is Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH). It has small bits of aluminum in it so that when its poured in drains with water it reacts. I'm not up on my chemistry but believe that Sodium Hydroxide is the cheapest & best to use & reacts to aluminum better then KOH. Not positive on that & its just a guess thats why Draino uses it. Also a great deal of heat is released in the process. I was thinking if you could harness that heat somehow you'd kill 2 birds with one stone. Maybe use the heat to heat a coil or your water? Just letting my mind wander..lol. I live in a 1 br apt. so its real hard for me to experiment here. Wish I was out in the boonies..lol..By the way Bob, talking about your creek, have you ever taken a sample from your creek to pan for gold? Just a thought. Alot of people have gold on their property & dont even know it...lol...Also Boyce didnt want to have to re-condition his cells is probably why he didnt use acid. But dont know for sure. It does work well tho..Well thats my 2 cents worth...

[Bob]

COOL Wess THANK YOU !
thats some good info to know !
gott'a run...
Bob....

[hydrotinkerer]

Does Bob live in gold country?  envy

[Bob]

Gold country ?
well I suppose its supposed to be Gold country here.... after all the prospectors were told back in the 1800's that the streets in San Fransisco were paved in gold !...but San Fransisco is a good 5 hr drive...maybe 6 hrs from here... and the gold bareing quarts deposits are  a looooong way away !...
However I did pan the creek when I first came out here , didn't even get black sand !
... but at  the ranch in one little creek on the property we panned and got a few flakes , but thats all ! nothing substancial....
...I'ed have an easier time  of it looking for Fossels than gold... we got dino foot prints all over the place here in the bed rock ! some are realy neet !
...
but don't think I'll ever get rich panning for gold...don't have the paitiance fer it !
HAHAHAHAHA
... besides I never hurd of a Hydroxy cell made from gold plates... though it might work real good .... Hummmm now there is an idea... even electroplateing might work !
only take a few thousand dollars worth of gold to do it... but all I gott'a do is just dig it up right !?  easy pezzy !
HAHAHAHAHAHHA
...
Bob........

[wess]

LOL...Loved you're reply Bob. Well I guess if you have fossils in bedrock then you ain't gonna find gold..lol...thats sedimentary rock. But hey, never hurts to tell someone. I know a guy in ID that was digging an outhouse & dug into a very rich vein. But its not sedimentary rock there. Well at least you thought about it & tried...lol..