The little engine that could...

[Brad4321]

This thread is to conglomerate my newly found interest in just what we are capable of, and to do so in a semi-scientific light. I am not trying to sell anything or acquire any personal internet glory (and internet money!), so we will see how this works.

I had forgot what I had stored in the barn, to say the least. My 3hp briggs wasn't a 3hp afterall. It is nothing short of an 8hp briggs. This engine is virtually brand new, just 1 season of running an elevator. She's a little dusty and needs a good cleaning.



While I was there, I was suckered into fixing a 5hp briggs with a sticky exhaust valve. Took it apart last night and found that the keeper/spring retainer was cocked causing the valve spring to ride the valve, wearing a deep grove in the valve stem causing the valve to get stuck occasionally. I love these little engines. Don't care much for kohler and the rest, but I can work on an old briggs just fine.



To my surprised, guess what else showed up in the mail 2 weeks early. Yeah, that's right! Going to be a busy few weeks. I was betting I could get the stand done before the stainless showed up.



Enough of the picture show for now. This is my current plan:

1. Build a test stand to securely hold the engine, alternator setup, battery packs, generators, boubler, gauge panel, etc.
2. Mount engine and alternator, get engine running (needs a carb/tank clean and some TLC)
3. Remote mount gas tank (or a fabbed tank) and measure BSFC under full load of alternator...and determine if alternator will fully load this engine. Install needle valve that will allow me to precisely control rate of gasoline into engine*.
4. Install HHO system, the same system that will later be put on my car.
5. Slowly increase HHO into engine and determine what ignition timing issues I have, and correct said issues.
6. Run engine up to maximum HHO production and calculate how much gasoline (if any) must be added to continue running. Recalculate BSFC under multiple stages up to max HHO production to see potential fuel economy gain at different LPM. Most importantly, calculate the LPM/potential mpg ratio of this engine per horsepower and liters/cubic inches.
7. Should engine not be able to produce enough HHO to run itself, hook up the rest of my generators to an outside power source to determine what LPM this engine will idle at and LPM for full throttle/full power.
8. Should I successfully make it this far, I have a "secret test" that I would like to do, and if it is successful, I will post results. I am under the theory (but not completely against) the thought that we cannot generate enough HHO on the fly to power the engine. I do, however, have an idea to increase the efficiency of this with very minimal additional cost (a few dollars).

*this idea may be completely changed for something different, we will see how practical/easy it is.

I do not have all of the details worked out as this will be a see what happens test. My two big head scratchers are measuring the BSFC as accurately as I can (I can't measure it the same way the manufactures/government does as I am short a few million dollars in equipment, but I am not looking for specific numbers like they are, but a percentage gain), and ignition timing.

Despite scoring the 8hp briggs (not really a score since I forgot about it, I suppose, but it is like finding money in your old jean pockets), I did lose on the alternator. I thought I had a spare 200amp 1 wire left, but I remembers that I sold it with my old car. This will be a moderate setback due to the cost of the alternator.

Off to start building the stand.

Edit: Step 1 mostly complete. Will add a bottom shelf later for batteries. Made from recycled scraps from torn-down houses. Got me a big pile of wood that way, but took a few days to de-nail.

[Manta]

We will be following this with great interest.

...Should engine not be able to produce enough HHO to run itself,...

It won't.

Manta

[Bob]

Fantastic Brad ! GO FOR IT!
...
I have to agree with Manta on that it won't be able to produce enough HHO itself to run the engine alone
....HOWEVER it may well produce enough to run the engine above idle... and that in itself would be a triumph!
....
GLAD to see the 8hp B&S.... that's the same engine I have on my saw mill ! and the timing can be moved further on it than on the other engine... so definitely use the 8hp !
...
 your going to run into a few problems that I can see... hopefully we can work them out before you get to that point! <GRIN> first and formost that I can see is the engine turning the large altenator....
at best it will be hard pressed to turn the altenator under full load.... at worst it will bog down and kill the 8hp engine...
... that being said, it is essential that you get the generator/charger unit working top notch before you try any fuel changes...or you'll not know what you have at all.
...
you'll probably need 4 to 6 cells to run that engine on 100% hydroxy gas... that is ALLOT of cells!
... learn from my screw-ups and make each one in their own container don't try to put them all in the same container it won't give you the output you need!...
 I would try to run the engine on 4 cells at full Output first...and see if you can get it to run at an idle... it might !
but be darn sure you know what your LPM is...  4 cells at 2LPM each is 8LPM ... and it should run on that.... but if your cells only produce 1LPM each that is only 4LPM and I seriously doubt it could stay running on that little of HHO.
...
buy a few cans of Quick start sense you have a rope starter.... it'll save your hands!
...
 I wish you Luck ! if there is anything I can help with just ask ! ...
...
Bob......

[Brad4321]

Should we be able to produce enough HHO on the fly to power the engine and have enough power left over to do some work (the discussions here lately), why could I not replicate this on the briggs? ICE is an ICE. I understand that this engine being a "flathead" design is less efficient than our OHV designs today, but this point is truly moot (if the engine efficiency affects working or not, go or no go, then HHO would only work on certain engines). Although I am truly interested in the LPM calculations, part of this is to see in real time whether a or not our "PMM (perpetual motion machine)" will work.

This is a scaled down "car" engine that is small enough that a car alternator will max its power. Let's say at a full 200 amps will be full load for this engine...this means that at 100 amps output I should be power the engine leaving half the horsepower left to do real work. Should this actually happen, I have load resistors that I can use to draw the other 100 amps loading the engine down. This is no different than using half your car's horsepower to power the HHO, and the other half to turn the wheels. I just happen to be using the alternator for both. Should this happen, it would work for any ICE. If I can't make enough LPM to power this engine from the engines own power, you won't be able in any ICE. Whether I am using a 1/4HP engine or a 150hp 4cyl, the exact same rules apply. The 3hp briggs would work just as good (all timing issues aside, which I will still likely have), as will a rotary or any spark fired ICE. Car alternators suck power based off of amperage output. A 200 amp alternator turns just as easy as a 60 amp when both are producing 20 amps, or 60 amps (for all intent and purposes here). A 3HP briggs may only have enough power to make 60 amps, but should the PMM theory work, 60 amps would be more than enough. If 60 amps won't power 3hp, then 600 amps won't power 30hp, and down the line...it is all within scale.  I wouldn't put a car alternator on a 1/4HP engine as that is getting a bit ridiculous, but a lawn mower alternator, sure.

No problem with the cells. I have enough washers to make 9 cells now. Once I see their output, I will order enough for another 9, or step up washer size if their performance is lacking. I am hoping for 1lpm/10amp, or to at least hit our standard of efficiency. The cells will be tested independently of this test rig since these cells, or ones like these, will wind up on my car eventually. I have already planned putting each cell into its own container with each container linked to a reservoir to stay full, and of course the gas output linked going to a boubler before the engine. May use PVC pipe for the container, but I will look into my options..want something nonconductive.

Should this engine bog at full load (with no belt slip, another issue I know I will have), that is excellent. I knew the 3hp would bog or reach stall load, which is exactly what I want to do. Since I do not have a dyno, I will be trusting briggs's 8hp measurement. When the engine starts to stall under full throttle at max rpm, I know it is making near 8hp which will make my max power BSFC measurements the most accurate. Since I no longer have the alternator and I have to get another one, it may not be a 200 amp. I will see what size is the best bang for the buck. I am thinking I will need a 160amp minimum for my car, so I may get a 160 instead. The numbers state 40amps per HP, which means even on a 200 amp I would not effectively bog down this 8hp. We will see.

There are plenty of issues that I will have, I have no doubt about that, but I would like for everyone to agree on my testing procedures (which will be posted more in detail as time goes on) so we can all agree on the results. I want this to be a test that will help everyone along.

[randy]

The first 2 washer cells "randy cell" I built had 22 plates, I had them in a pvc pipe with about a quart of tap water and about 4 tablespoons of baking soda in it, didn't have an ammeter at the time, with my truck running I was testing the output of the cells with jumper cables, the 1/4" hose was hissing the amount of gas exiting was immense, I unhooked the fuel line from the pump and let it run out of fuel, plugged the line from the cell onto one of the intake manifold barbs, started the truck, it ran rough as all hell but it ran, I messed with it for quite a few minutes, every time I tried to throttle up it died. But it did run, I tried again later but all I could get it to do was spit and sputter a little, after disassembly of the cell I found the reason, the thing was packed with green slime and could no longer produce anything, there's no doubt in my mind it can be done as I was using the trucks battery as a power supply and I was sure the truck wouldn't start at all before I fed the hydroxy to it. If belt slip is a problem then fashion an idler close to the alternator pulley to provide more wrap.

[Brad4321]

My worry of belt slip is due to running a single v-belt. Most of the big alternators that have v-belts run at least 2, I had a truck with 4 v-belts a few years back. Can only put so much tension on the belt until it smokes the bearings in the alternator. I will be able to get around 240 degrees of wrap on the test rig, can't improve that by much, probably to around 300. May have to swap to a double pulley on the engine. Pulling pulleys on these engines that have sat a while can be very problematic at times. Need to find a way to cog these like a timing or blower belt...that would fix it.

It would be great to know the lpm/amp draw you had. Don't know what truck you have, but with my trucks (with v8's and larger alternators) I can get about 50 amps at idle max. With a 4 cyl truck you may only be looking at 40 amps, stock alternator of course. That isn't a whole lot of LPM capability there, but it could have been drawing on the battery too. This is my main focus/goal, figuring out the LPM formula. If all works to plan, I will be able to verify my numbers on my car as I should have the LPM and amp capability to at least give me a smooth idle.

[Brad4321]

This weekend's productivity:



My template got crooked on the last set I drilled and those cells aren't perfectly symmetrical as you can see in the pic, but we will see how it works. No warpage this time around, the 1/4" plates solved all the warpage problems even with drilling such a big hole in a little washer. All 9 are ready to go, just need some containers. Will be making a trip to the store sometime this week. Can't wait to see the LPM on these. I would be totally thrilled with .5lpm/5 amps. I don't expect a huge output, but I would like to meet or beat our basic efficiency standard. These are small enough that I can stack them very easily, which is my goal. Depending upon the LPM output, I will either order another set of 100 or step it up to the 4" washers if these flop.

My flatbed crapped out on me this weekend, which I need running as it is nearing planting time. Cost to fix was $193, which was going to a new alternator  . Always need a bit more OT.

[Bob]

Oh WOW ! good job ! 9 cells ready to go ?
I hope you have done a continuity check on each cell ! and it passed !
... I have a cell that looks like the one on the lower left... not lined up very well at all... but it still produced almost as good as the ones that were perfect so  I used it anyway !
...
 I'm impressed you did a good days work there Brad !  I wish I had all those cells I'd be done with my cell making instead of just starting it ! HAHAHAHHAHHAHA!
...
Now for 9 separate containers !  and you'll be able to get 18LPM out of those if you have the AMPS to give them !
....
I'm going for 10 cells for my toyota R-22 f.i. 2wd pickup (2.4liter I think) that should make enough HHO to run my truck.... probably not at full throttle... but enough for most useages I think. we'll see...
 I'm planning on a 250amp or 300amp alternator for that truck as well... that's going to hurt the pocket book! ...but I have to have it!
 the container I was going to use split wide open on me today so I have been modifying things to fit in an old ABS container that I had for the "Smack Booster"... I had to remove some plates down to only 7 plates... but testing will tell me if that cell is going to be good enough... if not I'll do what you did and make 6 or 7 more "Randy Cells" and use them
...
the reason I keep saying separate cells is because you won't be able to draw any more than about 38amps per container even using KOH... less if you use Lemon aid... but if you split them up and put one per container you can get 20 amps to each easy.... other wise you will not be able to get the amp draw needed to make the cells operate at 2LPM each. (they need 20amps each to do that!)
...
 learn from my experience on that because I put 3 Randy cells in one container and tried to draw 60amps and I could only get 38 max.... that spoiled everything!  even with the electrolyte at max concentration it couldn't draw the needed amps to produce !
... subsequently i disconnected one cell and only ran 2 of the 3 cells for about 3 months straight...
after I first put them in I got close to 45mpg  it held that for a good 2 months then started dropping fast.... wound up with almost 1/4LPM when I checked it and I tore it apart  boy was it a MESS... brown coffee like goo, thick like 30wt oil on the bottom of the cell...all the plates were tainted brown.... ...( I started out with just barely under 3LPM for 2 cells at 30amps)
I used Muratic acid and soaked it for 10 min and then flushed it out real good with the water hose and then I got some shinier plates again.... ran it for about 3 weeks then removed it because of the snow and freezing temps... hasn't been back on the truck sense.
 I tore it all apart to inspect the cells to find rust on everything...it seams I had normal steel in there somewhere.... the rust was so bad that it even shorted out some plates.
 I discovered that the shim-stock I was using was rusting ! ... as well as a few nuts...  and here I thought I had it ALL stainless steel inside too ! LOL.... you can't fool the cell !
...
 You did a fantastic job on those cells Brad ... and I don't see any shim-stock at all.... how did you do that ?
..
Bob.....

[randy]

should work fine, one thing I found with those 2" washers, and the 4" washers is they are punched out making them slightly concave, look at them closely and you can tell one side from the other, with you using that configuration you'll want them all facing the same way, you'll get nice even plate spacing that way.

[Brad4321]

Didn't even think about that randy. I just looked at my spare washer and it looks flat. I will straight edge it later and see. My plate gap is pretty decent. I wish it was tighter, but unless I mill down the washers it won't be...same situation you mentioned in the other thread. Without a mill or access to anything like that remotely precise, I will leave well enough alone.

These passed continuity check first time through. These were incredibly easy to assemble in comparison to some other designs I have made. It would have been a lot quicker assembly if I hadn't run out of hose halfway through. I cleaned out the garage the other day and found my first cell. It was starting to rust! Real good stainless there. The stainless I used here is slightly magnetic. I was talking to my machinist friend a little while back about cutting these out on his EDM and he told me he had some 4" stainless bar stock and I wouldn't need to get washers. He then shot me a price and it was $530 a foot and I needed about 13"! I forget what grade of stainless he said it was, but it was something special. I'm sure it would have worked great, but I think I will stick with my $.010 washers.

I am wanting to put these in 3" PVC, each in separate containers. I will have a recirculating pump and reservoir for cooling and keeping the cells full. Heat is a concern of mine as my previous cells have always ran hot, never ran this style before so I can't really comment on these. It is one thing running them under the bumper of my car, but another on a stationary test stand in the middle if summer (which is when this whole setup will probably be operational). If I could get 18lpm out of these I would die from hysteria, but I am taking the pessimistic view right now...better to be surprised than disappointed! I will be using lemonade as that is all I have ever used...I like it better than KOH or the others.

My test car also has a 2.4l 4 cyl, although I am shooting for a few more cells than you (I have a less optimistic LPM outlook). Be leery of the over 200 amp alternators, most of those aren't rated for continues amps due to the heat produced. They are marketed to audio competitions and can only run at full power for a couple of minutes at a time. It is better to run twin 200's or twin 160's than a single big alternator. Each alternator will run cooler and despite having double the pieces to break, they will last longer than a single big alternator just because of the heat. Now, you can get large frame alternators that can handle the heat, but they are the half the size of your engine! I have been doing some reading on and off on alternators and there is a lot of good stuff there, especially on the cheap high outputs...such as using a GM 10si case for a 160-200 amp and not upgrading the cooling...they burn out rather quickly. We are a special case in comparison to most, since most buy HO alternators for stereo systems and those are not a constant high draw giving the alternator time to cool. We run a high draw continuously, and this can really test the cooling.

No shim stock, just all-thread, washer, nut, and hose. Plate gap is right at 1/16. That one really crooked cell in the bottom of the pic is a tad over 1/16. I will take it apart and play with it some. The rest are all pretty good. I can't wait to get a LPM test...maybe by this weekend.

[Bob]

Brad...Did you use insulating pieces between the plates to keep them flat ?
... I bet you'll get 1.75LPM at 20 amps at least..... that's my guess  sense you said the gap was 1/16"
if nothing else that much HHO will really streach the gasoline on the generator if you find some way to cut back on the gasoline real good...
that 8hp motor has an adjustable mainjet I believe and makes adjusting the gasoline a snap !
(that little "T" screw on the bottom of the carberator)... get it running add the HHO and then start cutting back on the gas till it starts to stagger.... of you turn it all the way back and it don't stagger try adjusting the air screw on the idle mixture....
 I wish I could be there to see it work ! ...HAHAHAHA
...
Bob.......

[Brad4321]

I used 4 small squares of plastic glued to the washers as spacers. 3/8" rubber hose cut to approx 1/8". The hose stretches tight on the 7/16 nut keeping it from falling off or wondering around.

When I get everything going, I will video tape each run in its entirety for posting here. The plan is to have everything well documented with real, reproducible numbers.

[randy]

Heat is always a problem, one way to combat this is low amps, on my original MK1 I found that if I ran them at 10 amps each the temp never exceeded 120 deg. The build I'm currently working on I intend to have a large capacity electrolyte system, I'm going to concentrate on building 1 high output cell, from my experiments surface area is key to getting mass production, the more surface area you have, the more amps you can feed it, the more gas you will produce, so I figured to combat the heat thing I'd just have a large cell and feed it fewer amps to prevent runaway. In my initial test on this cell I fed it 15 amps cold in a 1 quart container, I noticed a few things immediately, just a pinch of k-aid was all it needed, visual output is impressive, after all the plates are drilled, spacers glued in place the cell is a snap to assemble and disassemble, the electrolyte is almost clear, shortly after powering the cell I couldn't see the cell in the fluid due to the cloud of gas being made, it made huge bubbles and sounded louder then a boiling pot of water. Not sure if I'm on to anything special here but I like what I see so far. enough of my yammering, time to go glue some pipe together and do some testing.

[Bob]

Brad... I dunno if you caught the posts I made about Rubber hose and continuity or not but Definitely check the hose you used for continuity...if it shows ANY resistance at all don't use it!
I still have an old steel cell out in the shed with something like 20 plates all 1/16" spacing really a nice looking cell, but I found the insulators I used showed resistance through them...rendering the cell useless ( besides the materiel was normal steel) so it sets on the shelf.
...
 Most "Black Rubber" will show resistance.... use vinyl tubing instead! resistance through the insulator just causes HEAT and wasted power.
 I even had one HOSE I used as a container seal Melt on me !  I try not to use metal containers now!
or black hose!
...
posting a video here is problematic their big and the site can't support them, but if you link to them and store them off site that's fine!  I like just plane o'l pictures myself as they go a long way in helping to explain whats going on !
...
Randy... You got it buddy, but to do work, Make HHO you need power... that takes the form of volts and amps on our vehicles.... 12 volts we really can't change but the AMPS we can... that is why I am alwayse saying MORE AMPS! MORE AMPS !  because there really is no substitute for it....
 of course you need the Plate area in the cell to Handle the amps... And I feel as you do the more plate area the better off you are the more amps you can throw at it...but there is a point at which adding more plate area does not translate into more HHO
  Sure a Cell will function with LOW APSI (amps per square inch of plate area) but you can get to the point of "Why bother?"when the output is so low.
 I like .2 to .5 APSI  that seams to work the best for me. and the heat isn't all that bad usually.
 I have never tried a 1:1 APSI but I'd like to some day although its probably just wasted power, it may show a hidden quality in HHO production that I've never seen before.
....
 Your absolutely correct on the large Electrolyte capacity ! that's the secrete of keeping a cell running cool.... add cooling fins on the resivore if you need to but the larger a capacity of Coolant you have the better off you are !
...
I don't have a 1liter bottle so I can't do my LPM test unless I use a 16oz container and try to figure out the math ! ... and my mind is like puddy today with this new medication...lol so I think I'll test the container for leaks and leave it at that till I get a 1 liter bottle!
...
Bob...

[Brad4321]

The washers are bent slightly, approx .005" worth. That is within my margin of error this time around.

My hose is clear neoprene, suppose to be electrically and chemically resistant. I will play with it later and see if I can get any ohms out of it. I haven't used this type of hose for anything like this before.

I have my own website (where I have been hosting everything so far), and I have plenty of space and bandwidth to go around at this point.

Well, we can change the voltage, especially if we are going to add additional alternators (and battery packs) to the mix. I have been pricing 16 and 24v alternators...16v is made for drag cars and you can't get a high amp output, 24v is mostly older heavy equipment and semi's, high outputs are available but about double the price of a comparable 12v ~$700 for a few hundred amps.

[Brad4321]

Tested the hose for continuity in various circumstances and it seems to be a great insulator. We will see how it holds up.

Here are the results from yesterday's work. Only had a couple of hours to work on this yesterday, but I have made some progress. Now we have a bottom shelf, but even more awesome is a nice muffler I dug out of the scrap pile. I hope to have this engine virtually silent. I have one more piece to add to this muffler system. From what I have heard, there will be no exhaust noise....you can hear the lifters tick. This will be a miraculous improvement over any small engine. I may end up with a bit of a redesign regarding how this is mounted, we will see how it works out.

I pulled the stock air filter assembly off as this will need to be completely reworked to give me a good spot to inject HHO. The air inlet to the carb is 1.5". I have found me an air filter, but I am still working on the hose and piping.

Once I get today's work done, I hope to have enough time left to clean the tank/carb and get the engine running, install the battery packs, and start working on the belt guard. After that, it is finish the air cleaner, then I need an alternator and my HHO setup.

Last week was in the 60's, yesterday it snowed half of the day, then warmed up and melted it all off. Next few days is rain...this area is starting to flood. Wish the weather would make up its mind....

[Bob]

 Your test bed is taking shape Brad ! good work !
I love the idea of the Silent running engine! hehehe good luck with that!
...we had a 5KW generator when I was a Kid that we ran some times but it was really a gas hog and by then we had converted almost everything to 12vdc... so it didn't get used much... but I did find a way to silence that beast finally.... I dug a trench and laid a piece of leach field sewer pipe in the hole and covered it up ... put the exhaust from the generator into a big flexible conduit and stuck it into the pipe and covered that too with dirt....  i didn't have that much dirt over the top, because if it worked real good I was going to re cover it with gravel so it could breathe better... as it turned out it quieted down that generator to where you couldn't hear the exhaust any more but it made a wine that was un nerving that we couldn't hear before ! HAHAHAHA !  never did do anything more with it...
years later we sold the generator when we got power to the grid in here....
...
 the ground will absorb almost any sound ... even pulse-jets !  hehehehe
it may drive away the gophers and ground squirrels but its nice not to see the windows shake so bad!
... LOL
Bob.......

[Brad4321]

Yep, that's true. Another excellent muffler is water. Depending upon the noise level with this old car muffler, I will dump the outlet of the muffler into a bucket of water. I have heard that a 5 gallon bucket itself will silence this thing. I have decided to go with the muffler first as the water will create some significant restriction in the exhaust, I figure, and I rather avoid that. This setup should be as or less restrictive than the stock, useless muffler.

Got her to run, don't think I need anymore muffler. Quiets it down significantly from stock. It is comfortable to stand next to it full throttle and a loud conversation could be had. What is unexpected, however, it the huge cloud of black smoke and powered soot that blew from the muffler on initial start and for about 15 seconds after. This muffler came from a diesel car, and let's just say it smoked a little. Wasn't quite expecting a 0 visibility condition on startup.

However, things aren't all gold covered chocolate.  The vibration is going to rip my stand apart. The wheels under the engine actually hop off the ground with each power stroke. Although nifty, that isn't good. A bit of a redesign is in order, or more along the lines of "let's add a whole bunch more screws". Once I get the battery packs installed, I will test things again. I have put 3000 CCA of truck batteries on the stand, charging right now. We will see if this added weight steadies thing up a bit.

The bouncing is bad enough that whatever is sitting on the stand gets reverted to floor storage in short order, such as various socket sets, cups off coffee, etc. 1/4" sockets can find all sorts of cute hiding spots!

[Brad4321]

Nice little 200 amp....

Poll: Convert engine to serpentine, or alternator to v-belt?

[Bob]

I'd go with 2 large v-belt pulleys on the alternator and 2 small as possible pulleys on the engine
(chuck the 4" pulley that's on the engine unless you can use it on the alternator)
finding 4" or 6" pulleys that will fit the alternator may not be as easy as it sounds! but you need the bigger size as help for the engine!  that engine will not turn that alternator under full load... so you may well have to use gear ratios to accomplish what you are trying to do !
...
but a 2:1 should get you to a usable ratio... turning the engine at 4000rpm and the alternator at 2000
...should get you ALL you can get out of that motor in the way of generating 12vdc
...
I'd shoot for a 2:1 gear down with 2 v belts.... you'd play hell doing that with a serpentine belt!
 so buy a 2 belt pulley for the engine ( looks like 1" shaft size)  and have it as small as possible ...that's probably a 2" maybe a 2.5" .... which means you'll need a 4" or larger double pulley for the alternator at what ever size it is... probably 5/8"   the only place you'll find that is a car parts place.... and it may well be hard to find!
...
 do this part RIGHT as it needs to be good for all the other tests that follow ! if the gear ratio isn't right the engine won't have the power to pull higher amps...
 I'm hoping against Hope for you that it will turn fine with a 150amp load on it...and be able to keep going... its very hard to say though ... it probably won't get past 100amps ! <GRIN>
...by the numbers it SHOULD...but we all know how that goes!
...
Bob.....

[randy]

Hey Brad, where do you live, I build specialized centrifuge devices, some of them are built from common drill presses, through the years I've accumulated a number of the adjustable pulleys drill presses use, that way you'd be able to play around with the speed you're turning the alternator just by moving the belt.

[Brad4321]

I am in south central indiana, halfway between indy and louisville. If you had anything that would work, that would be great.

This isn't just torque, I also need the alternator at the correct rpm. According to the manufacture (this isn't a cheap chevy conversion alternator, this is off of a heavy duty engine. It is a 200 amp rating, but 220 amp max, continuous amps), I need 8,000 spindle rpm to achieve max amps, any with my 3,500rpm governor, that will give me a needed pulley ratio of about 2.25. With my 4" (if it is 4", haven't actually measured) pulley on the engine, a 1.9" pulley on the alternator which is commonly available would be in about the perfect ratio.

The serpentine belt would give better holding power, but I may have to rig up a tensioner, and I don't know if I can get one for the engine. A double v-belt would work, if I could find one for both the engine and alternator in the right ratio. There is an alternator on ebay that has a timing belt pulley installed...don't know how they did that.

Whether or not this engine will turn the alternator at full power isn't really important, actually I wish it wouldn't. However, I need to turn the alternator at the right rpm and not have belt slip and let the alternator produce whatever it can.

Where can you get pulley's for these engines? I did a quick search online and didn't find any suppliers.

[Bob]

Tractor supply has pulleys in many types some as big as 12" for combines and hay bailers!
now weather they'd have what you need is another story completely!
....
 the 3500 RPM Governor does limit your RPM to below 4000RPM... that's OK... you'ed just have to step up the gearing a bit is all... Last time I was in Ace Hardware they had quite a few pulleys on the shelf , includeing gang set pulleys that go from 2" all the way to 6"  in like 4 steps... but they probably wouldn't hold strong enough and allow the belt to slip, thats why I said 2 v-belt pullies
 tractor supply and Ace hardware both carry gang pulleys at last check , they should have something for the engine at least !...
 You'll have to replace the 4" on the engine with a small pulley in order to get it to turn the Altenator  even if you went with close to a 1:1 you'll still have to change it...its just too big!
...
 the way you have it in the pic is 4" on the engine and a 2" (or so) on the altenator....
so at 2000rpm on the engine the altenator would be doing 4000rpm...
4000RPM on the engine makes 8000RPM at the altenator...  they put a small pulley on the altenator for a reason.... the altenator Needs RPM, un like most of the Altenators I've seen that can run on 2k RPM with no problem....
 However... if you have to gear UP for more RPM at the Altenator you will be robbing major HP from the engine in doing so ..... but so be it! if the Altenator has to have it what else can you do ?
....
at this stage I'ed say get a v-belt pulley on the altenator and find a belt that you can use on the engine and try that..... see if you can get it to run with that altenator hooked up on a v-belt at a 2:1 ratio.... that isn't going to be as easy as it sounds !  even with no load !
....
I'd definitely get rid of the serpentine pulley on the alternator... wrap a rag around the groves and put it in the vise and try to get the nut loose.  or use an old leather belt.
 or put a glove on one hand and try to use a AIR impact driver to get the nut loose!
I seriously doubt if there is a way to lock the shaft but there may well be slots machined in the shaft for a wrench to fit on it, if so its easy to get off !
 ....
as far as Lows and Home depot for getting pulleys  good luck , all they have in stock is for swamp coolers and usually that is very very little... the home town hardware stores are your best bet or perhaps the auto part stores
...
Bob.....

[Brad4321]

I found a supplier of cogged pullies (timing belt), but sadly they don't have a matching one the right dia for this engine. That would be one hell of a setup and virtually no side load....serpentine the same. This 8-rib pulley has more friction than even a double v-belt setup...the little engines haven't caught up with the rest of the world yet. The last big truck I had ran 4 v-belts..that was a 71. The new trucks run a 12 rib serpentine with a tad bit more loading. This alt here came off a 9l bus. It is used, I got it for a song and dance, $326 new price. Finding an alternator was a big money worry for me, got real lucky in this deal.

I have found a double v-belt pulley for the alternator, I just need a double v for the engine now. TSC doesn't seem to carry a double v belt pulley (they have pulleys with multiple sizes, but I need both the same size). I did finally find an online supplier with a huge selection, but no double v's.

From what I have read for this alternator (http://www.delcoremy.com/Images/PerformanceCurve-28SI-12v.aspx), 8,000 is the absolute max output with a 10,000 rpm redline, I can get what I need from just 4,000 rpm, although the faster I spin the alternator the less heat buildup and more efficient the system. Pulley sizing isn't a big concern, it is just finding a supplier. I have no faith in a single v-belt. Although I could probably get it to not slip, the tension on the belt would wipe out bearings.

[Bob]

Brad  I have on occasion used 2 single belt pulleys back to back on an engine... we were trying to turn a Big 1.5" Zabsco water pump via v-belts... the idea never did work and we had to get a bigger motor than we had to turn the pump we then used direct drive with a flex coupling.... that thing was the hardest thing I ever ran into to start... it was a 12hp engine that was almost wore out, and hooked to that pump was almost more than I could handle as a kid to start.... it was my chore to pump the water and keep the tank full... LOL
engine pulleys can be found at tractor supply or Ace hardware... as I said you may need to buy 2 and put them back to back on the engine however.
...
4k rpm sounds about right for the alternator you should get all you can  out of it at that RPM...
 2k probably won 't cut it too well , <GRIN>
good luck to ya !
...
Bob....

[Bob]

Seriously Brad  get the double v pulley for the altenator and then find you 2 single grouve pulleys for the engine... 3" would probably do the trick ya want most v belt pulleys are cut short on the back side and the front is where the allen key is located,  you'll need to put in a long 1/4" key for the 2 pulleys  but it should work very well.
I have about 8 pulleys out in the shed, some good some not so good the cheep flemzy alumimum pulleys you get at the hardware store are usually so flat on the back side that you can put the pulley on the shaft with the allen set screw toward the engine... then put the next pulley on with the allen setscrew away from the engine... with long "T"handle allen wrenches you can reach them easy.
you should measure the crank shaft of that beastie so you know what size to get ! ...I just bought a engine pulley for my 8hp from Tractor supply  and its been running my band saw lumber mill i made last year.   I believe it was 1" or maybe 1 1/8"  not sure now.(shaft size)
...
...
 and for GODS SAKE if you tear into the carburetor be really careful and don't shear off the brass needle valve on the bottom of the carb that adjusts the main-jet.... I did on mine and had to swap carburetors because I could not find a replacement part !
...
Bob.....

[Brad4321]

The thought crossed my mind about running double single pulleys while I was out today, but it seems like my spacing between the pulleys would be too wide at the engine end running my belts at an angle. I may just be obsessing over nothing; I have a tendency to do that. Afterall it is an engine bolted to a board, not a car going down the road. I will pick up some pulleys friday. I measured a few days ago, but I believe I have a 7/8 shaft. This is the cheap briggs, if you have the industrial engine, you may have the larger shaft.

[Bob]

LOL ! I thought the same thing myself.... good observation that !
but those pulleys will actually put the edges of the v's together touching !...
one time I did it with 3/4" pulleys I needed 2 belts to drive diferent things on a snow blower...
I used the smallest pulleys I could find for the engine and put them back to back.... it turned out that they were too close together and the belts rubbed !  so I had to seperate them about 1/16" ...
then it worked fine .... on the engine side .... the rest was something else however ! LOL
...
I have however ran into 2 pulleys that would not stack at all I had to grind the back side down on the one pulley and the back side down on the other to get then close enough to use... then the darn things were too long for the engine shaft ! the outer one over hang the end of the shaft and the set screw was hitting AIR... so I drilled and tapped another hole and put in another screw....
that was on a Mini bike... the engine was a 2hp lawn mower engine from back in the 1950's ... the double belt went to a double pulley on a jack shaft which came with the frame...   still got that silly thing too  it rode like a brick...no cushion at all, no give and the seat was plywood!
 that was the only engine I could get going by pushing the silly thing... there was that little of compression left in the engine LOL..... I put a 5hp on it many years later but only one belt to the jack shaft and that worked fine, didn't need to go through all that stuff on the first engine ! LOL
.... if I can find a carb for that 7hp motor I'll put it in that tote-goat just for S&G's hehehehehe
 I think the tires are full of concrete though never seen such a hard riding thing in my life!
hehehhe
 I said all that to say this.... keep after it you'll figure it out ! HA!
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Two things.
1,  I'd be interested to know what the fuel consumption is when running at 4000 rpm.

2,  I wouldn't put my batteries where they will be subject to vibration. Maybe a few concrete blocks will be better if you need to damp the vibration,  best not  shake the batteries to bits.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Load or no load Manta ?
I'd guess with a load myself...?
...a small bottle of say 10oz hooked to a dry carb should give you that but you'ed have to run the bottle dry and the carb dry and then subtract whats left in the carb bowl ... and of course time the run.
  I set out to do that at one time and never did get it done... its a pitty too because I never knew if any of my vaporizer things ever gave better fuel usage! LOL
....
Bob....

[Brad4321]

Didn't get the "new replies e-mail."

Just checking back in to let everyone know I am not dead, although little progress has been made in the past couple weeks. I did add some reinforcement to the stand that has made a significant difference. A little steel fixes everything up.

I did some snooping around TSC and found the pulley's I need. They only had 4" in my size, so I grabbed two of them. I found some that didn't have a large hub sticking out so I can cram them together quite nicely.

When it came time to get the alternator pulley, I discovered a little known fact....the heavy duty alternators have a larger diameter shank than automotive and getting a double v-belt for this alternator proved tricky. I eventually found that a 74 ford big truck (F600) ran double v-belts with an alternator with this diameter shank and I have ordered one of these pulleys a week ago. Still don't have it yet, not sure where it is or what is going on there. Once I get the alternator pulley, I will pick up a couple of belts and get everything fitted for fabbing an adjustable alternator mount.

I have also picked up some containers for my cells, but sadly haven't been able to do a LPM check on them yet. Being spring, I am getting slammed with work..two engine rebuilds this week and two paint jobs.... I also have to go back to school for my job in a few weeks...the school isn't very exciting, but the promotion sure is. Evidently I need another degree....

I will measure fuel consumption, but the proper way isn't by volume, but by weight. The weight is self-correcting for many variables, such as temperature. I plan on doing this with a remote mounted gas tank sitting on a digital scale. When the manufactures do this, they have what amounts to basically a bucket hanging from a scale with the hoses running down the top, not touching the bucket. I will run a hose from the bottom, like a gas tank. This will likely throw off my numbers a bit, but I don't even have a dyno to accurately measure load, so it isn't like this will be super accurate anyway. As long as I keep all of my variables the same, which with my mounted stand I will be able to, I will be able to get a percentage increase of BSFC, which is what I am after. My exact numbers may not be accurate, but my percentage increase will be.

With the added structural support and weight of 3 truck batteries, the stand has calmed down quite a bit. It isn't no worse now than driving through michigan!

[Bob]

Howdy Brad !
 Yah ! some times I noticed that the site doesn't tell you of new replys.... I think ... I'm really not sure on that...
 I think mostly that it is very picky on WHAT it tells you about.... I discovered that I had to tell it to watch EVERY thread... then I started getting notifications like I should!
...
 People will on occasion answer or continue a conversation on another thread... its no biggy to me if they do but it throws off the Notifying thing and it does not know to respond!
...
 sense I try to keep close tabs on this site "EVERY DAY"  I do look at every post, for a while there it was taking a bunch of time , but it has sense then calmed down allot.
...
...
 Sounds like your getting there !  good work!
...
 My concern is that you will come to the conclusion that the Hydroxy cells don't contribute to the running of the engine "enough to bother with" and give it up before you give it a good chance!
... that has been the pattern of people in the past, believe it or not... they'll build a cell hook it to their car.... see a tiny increase in gas mileage and then say its not enough to bother with and remove it and dissapear from the site , never to be seen again.
 this has happened more than once even though I try my best to warn people... if you want a large increase in gasmilage you have to reduce the gasoline going into the engine after you add the hydroxy gas.... but they just don't listen !
...
 What your doing is attempting to PROVE what I have been saying all along... so Obviously I want you to succeed !  I know it already has taken allot of work and expense, but the end results will be well worth it in the long run !
  I don't know of anyone who has tried to do what you are doing... its a first !
I know of one B&S that ran on Hydroxy gas for a few minutes but that is all, his conclusion was that it takes way too much Hydroxy gas to run an engine than what its worth...
 I cannot understand that reasoning because if you can get an engine to run on Hydroxy gas alone, and get enough Hydroxy gas being generated you'd have a stand alone system that needs no fuel!
... and that IS INDEED WORTH A GREAT DEAL !
... I don't know if what your attempting to do is going to work or not... to be quite Honest !
 "IT SHOULD" (in my view) but there are so many variables in the mix that can stop it from working
its really hard to say.
   I think I will start making a bunch of "Randy cells" and try to accumulate 10 of them
 because My switch plate cover cell was a bust...
 ...
 I think I'll have a very good chance of running my toyota truck on 10 individually contained "Randy cells".... if not it should reduce my gas mileage to such a low level that it will be very close to being powered by 100% hydroxy gas.   If I can, I'll wean that truck completely free of gasoline!LOL
...but its really hard to say weather or not I can.
...

 Glad you found the pulleys ya need.... that in itself is a major hurdle!  I just hope you got the right size  concerning the HP available !   we shall see I guess ! <GRIN>
... I imagine before this is all said and done you will have a bunch of pulleys for that engine! hahahahahaha
...
Keep after it !
...
Bob....

[Brad4321]

The 4" pulley on the engine may not be so bad after all as the alternator pulley is suppose to be 3.5". This is one huge alternator pulley, and I don't know why truck would have one so large...they didn't turn high rpm. At a 3500rpm engine speed, it will put me at 4,000 on the alternator, my bare minimum. If I do end up having to swap different size pulleys, it isn't the end of the world, but these pulleys sure are expensive.

My problem is my winters are slow and summers are packed with work, which is why I was here last winter and disappeared last summer. I don't plan on doing that this year as now my perspective is a bit different. I am looking at the monetary side of this now, not just improving my own MPG. These tests are for another reason, I need solid numbers to see if I can make a legitimately expand my business into the hydroxy realm. There is a lot of junk and misinformation out there and I believe I have found an untouched niche within the hydroxy market, should I be able to get the information I need. Unlike most business ventures, I want to help everyone, and thus everything I do here will be public. There are some major hurtles to overcome using a small engine and comparing that to anything automotive, but I believe that I can still pull credible numbers from this test. After doing some research, after I test this flathead (L-head) briggs, I may pick up an OHV briggs and test that as well to see the differences. Flow and actual combustion through a flathead to OHV is drastically different and I am not sure in what way that will affect the hydroxy. Going from the hydroxy being a catalyst to the combustion theory, it could affect it considerably...or might not. I am afraid my numbers with the flathead may be slightly better than with the OHV, actually. We will kill that bird when we get there.

Besides seeing just how much hydroxy we really need, I also hope to squish a lot of the misinformation around. It is really disheartening to mention this to someone and all you get is "that doesn't work" or that it is "snake oil". From mythbusters to major companies saying it doesn't work (bolting on a premade kit and not cutting back fuel, as you said), it is hard to impossible to convince anyone that it will. After all, TV is always right!

[H²+O]

I haven't ditched Bob! Just been working like crazy to try to get ahead in life   .


Really looking forward to the outcome! whether it be 100%hho or 50/50, if i had the money i would be doing the same tests! Haven't picked up anything on Hydroxy since i bought my house last July. I'm really wanting to build and run http://www.youtube.com/user/LanceMJoseph with HHO! would be a beautiful thing, being able to control the input of the HHO and the Air, running it at next to no RPM or just opening it up.

I was emailing a guy http://www.youtube.com/user/zgymnast , turns out he lives 11mi form me but haven't talked to him in ages. He was all set up running his car on HHO in a shop environment. Don't know if he ever successfully got it going.. but would be really sweet to see what he figured out if he actually continued with his project!

Every time i step away for a while and lose the thought of HHO power, someone always brings me back and my thoughts on the subject are stronger than ever.

Steve

PS: an old book i found that has to do with Hydrogen

[randy]

I saw awesome results with my setup until I had an electrical mishap on my truck, this occurred when I was trying to find an electrolyte that wouldn't freeze, never did succeed with that venture but have some other ideas for that. the cell I have now should handle 40 amps, I intend to run it at 20 amps first and hope to get 2 lpm from it at least, if it does what I think I'll mount another alternator solely devoted to the cell and up the amps.

[Bob]

thanks guys for the comments !

Good to see you again Steve !
 You can make a battery out of just about any metal and KOH... I fail to see the significance to that Link on you tube <grin> but regardless of that it is good to see you again , don't be such a stranger!
...

Randy: Do you remember the numbers you were getting before you had your melt-down ?
 I think it was about 51MPG but you were doing to do some more tinkering and was gone about a week, came back and said You had a major problem on a hill side 20 miles from town when you were hunting!
... Do you remember what you were getting ?.... Must be nice to have a Carberator instead of Fuel injection ! LOL !
...
...
Brad ... I typed out a long thing for ya a bit ago, switched screens and lost it ! so suffice it to say, if your motor will run at 3500RPM  powered by 6 cells at 100% hydroxy... but the motor can only pull the alternator to charge 4 cells  there will be a deficit  of 2 cells worth of amps....
I expect this may occur  because of Physics, "you cannot get out more than you put in"
 HOWEVER.... if that does take place you can then work on getting the engine /Alternator system more efficient....  the "L" head B&S Is a notorious gas guzzler... going to a OHV B&S can only help!
... Water is the easiest element there is to rip apart into its individual elements, for this reason
One could expect to be able to exceed the laws of Physics because they generalize EVERYTHING...
saying "Nothing" can work that way is shear folly untill you try every element.... do you really think they have ? .... I don't!
 its quite possable that you may be able to power 7 cells and only need 6 to run the engine
but your system is going to have to be almost Perfect!
...
Bob.....

 

[Brad4321]

They may not have tried every element, but I bet they have tried water. It is kinda the start of and basis for everything  .

Yeah, the old flatheads aren't the most efficient design in the world, to say the least. This is why I am figuring that under the theory of hydroxy being a catalyst to combustion (improving combustion efficiency), we will actually see a higher gain with the flathead than an OHV. I bet these differences will be small, however, probably within 5%. Whatever will work on the flathead will work on the OHV, or on a car engine. It may take less LPM per cubic inch on the OHV compared to the flathead to reach a certain "MPG" point, but the theory will stay the same. The percentage gain should be the same between both (and all) engines. If we can reach 90% efficiency with the flathead (my hope and goal), we can reach near that number on any ICE engine. However much hydroxy we need to pump into a said engine to reach that efficiency will vary, but our upper limit will stay.

If this sounds a little confusing, I am guessing that flathead to be around 15% efficient currently, while the OHV briggs may be near 20%. To get both engines to 90% efficient, the flathead will see a higher gain over stock which will show up in the BSFC tests. However, the percentage gain per LPM of HHO will be the same for each engine, as will the upper limit....the two things I am mostly testing.

[Bob]

I don't understand how you plan to get to 90% efficiency  on a 15% efficient engine !?!?
...
there are an abundance of things that are taken into account when engine efficiency is calculated... in my view most of them are useless and only knock down the percentage.
...
 Lets say for a moment that an ICE's efficiency is a ratio between the resistance of the engine to turning to its ability to turn.... if that was the case the engine efficiency would be up to 85%~95% for almost every engine out there, and 99.9% for a jet engine
...
but to try and calculate engine efficiency is really a Joke.... what we really need is not how efficiency is improved or hindered, but a simple MPG rating!
   If you can get the B&S 8hp up to 90% HHO and only 10% gasoline that will really be a huge number on MPG.... better yet if you can get it to 100% HHO and no gasoline ! even with outside help! say using an additional charger as well as the engine and alternator
....
when Hydrotech made his Tube cells and installed them in his big Duely truck and got over 75MPG
I was shocked!  he figured he was giving it 12LPM HOWEVER he did extensive modifications on the gasoline feed system and leaned it out "A great deal" in order to do that ! for a truck that got 10mpg to begin with  I'd say he did very good ! especially for a large V8
...
Bob.....

[Bob]

 Also LTCFisher has done some great stuff as well, although I don't know the numbers of his achievements I do know they are quite good !
...
 there are a few of us that have successfully intragrated HHO generators into the ICE and came up with much better Gas mileage...  I think the major problem is Keeping them working over the long haul, for months at a time.  This sounds like an easy thing to do ... but in practice its a bit harder than it sounds...
 for example ONE steel washer or Nut in a Hydroxy cell will cause the whole cell to stop working eventually if all you do is keep adding electrolyte... the steel will start to rust and that will coat all the plates in the container. sealing them off and keeping water from reaching the plates and rendering it useless...
  This is what happened to my cell I had in my Toyota R22 truck... I am sure of it !
the electrolyte turned into a deep Coffee like color and coated the plates and the cell that used to produce about 3LPM at 30 amps dropped to less than 1/4 LPM at 30amps...
I did manage to clean the cell up though, but that's not the point, the point is it quit working because of the Steel nut, or perhaps the possable cooking of the KOH!
...
Now Randy on the other hand has never had problems with his cells getting dirty while in use...
and he uses Un-sweetened Lemonade Koolaid as an electrolyte... and his cell construction is far and away superior to mine <GRIN> so that is something to consider when dealing with Hydroxy generators!
...
Bob...

[Brad4321]

   If you can get the B&S 8hp up to 90% HHO and only 10% gasoline that will really be a huge number on MPG.... better yet if you can get it to 100% HHO and no gasoline ! even with outside help! say using an additional charger as well as the engine and alternator

That is what I meant, a 90% gain in fuel efficiency. I am guestimating that will be our top end limit, best case scenario and is what I am shooting for. There will be no usable power left at this ratio as 100% of the engines power will be spinning the alternator producing the gas to keep it running. I am going to assume that our max usable limit will be near 80%, leaving approx 10% of the engines power to move the vehicle. 10-15% is enough for most 4cyl vehicles to keep a steady cruise. I am not measuring MPG directly, but BSFC on the gasoline burned which will directly relate to MPG. The actual efficiency of the engine will not be changed, we are just burning less gasoline fuel.

To get a better idea what I am trying to do, this short article covers it pretty well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brake_specific_fuel_consumption

The key concept of using BSFC as my measuring device is this one sentence:  "BSFC allows the fuel efficiency of different reciprocating engines to be directly compared."

Engine efficiency is not at all a joke....improving the two main efficiency standards (volumetric and thermodynamic) are the two main focuses of automotive engineering, and can be directly measured. Not only does emissions decrease with improved efficiency (the biggest driving factor behind the american and european markets), but MPG and power both go up. Whatever gain HHO will give can be multiplied (not necessarily added, but multiplied) by any increase in engine/chassis efficiency. Of course, the other side of this coin is the engine is only one part of the equation, the aerodynamics and weight of the car plays a tremendous part in MPG. I have a goal of 200mpg and the only way I can realistically reach this isn't by just pumping in lots of HHO (you can only add so many alternators to a car, for example, before it gets ridiculous, extremely costly, and prone to failure), I have to have the right car to do it. My grand am will never be able to get there; I will be getting a 92-96 hatchback honda. Why? Hatchbacks are one of the most aerodynamic designs out there, it is a smaller, more efficient engine, and for minimal effort I can have direct ECM access for tuning and will not have to fool the ECM giving me much finer control.  I also plan on using other aerodynamic mods to increase this efficiency, including lowering the car, skirts, a smooth underbody, low rolling resistance tires, and on down the line. Why would I go to this much effort when I could just pump in a huge amount of HHO to get the same results? I may only need 4 lpm to reach my 200mpg goal with this setup, I would need double that at a minimum without it, most likely near triple. Doubling the LPM doubles the cells, amps, and maintenance. HHO is high maintenance enough, which is why it will likely never reach mainstream. The more I can improve the efficiency of the car the less I need to rely on the finicky HHO setups. My guess is that I can break 125mpg with my grand am with the cell setup that is on my test stand...at around 18lpm, and do so today, tomorrow, and the next. It is one thing to get good MPG once, but I want a system that will do it day in, day out, in all seasons, and not risk any engine damage. There are a lot of shortcuts with HHO, but these shortcuts do not always lend themselves to being long term solutions.  How many of us has had a working (and working properly) HHO system for a year? Five years? An increase in engine/car efficiency will never go away or stop working. I don’t have a goal to just get 200mpg, or just see what I can get out of this test stand, but to make something that will work today and tomorrow. A lofty goal, sure, but unless we all shoot for this goal we will spend as much time tinkering with the system as driving the car and that isn’t something I really want to do.

[Bob]

Ok all good points ! because even if you could get 90% HHO and 10% gasoline  WITHOUT other car mods
when the HHO system was down for cleaning you'd loose ALL your gains... so you do have a good point and reason to make the car better and more efficient.
...
 My goal is less Lofty however... I just wann'a see my truck run on 100% HHO  generated in the truck itself.... I don't care if it only lasts a week between cleanings ! .... I'll tackle that problem NEXT!
...
HAHAHAHA
...
Bob.....

[H²+O]

don't know if you guys have seen these vids but it's a jump start for ya.
Video 1 http://www.youtube.com/user/ZeroFossilFuel#p/u/10/8IECj9jhGcs,
Video 2 http://www.youtube.com/user/ZeroFossilFuel#p/u/9/vVasKaoQPpk
Now there are vids before this of him building the 'bat cell' but this is the end product. and the result looks ok at 5.98MMW (can't remember those calculations lol), he says that he is getting 137% out of which means that the power consumed by the cell and waist is less than it generates (hinting that if you built it big enough you would succeed). but taking that and 'tuning' it to the frequency of water (if possible) would ideally get you to 200% + which is where you would need to be in order to have your machine powered by 100% hho.

[Brad4321]

I have read some amazing things about modulating the frequency...and I can see the basis for how it works. What some people are getting makes our best cells look like a stick in a gunfight. I have read through some of the build threads, and to say the least it looks a bit complicated. I do plan on working on building one of those frequency boxes and try it out, but it won't be until later in the year.

Still waiting on the pulley. It has supposedly been shipped out now, just waiting for it to arrive. Hopefully I can have the basic setup done by next weekend and be able to take a initial BSFC test. All I am waiting on right now is the pulley. I have some gauges coming as well, but they are for monitoring the hydroxy and I won't need then initially.

Depending on how things work out, I hope to have my cells in containers and some LPM tests done this weekend, maybe even start working on the boubler and reservoir. My weekend is looking pretty open right now, but things can change fast.

[Bob]

I was reading about the RF Frequency power supply's ...one place sells them at over $600 bucks and the KIT is  $1200.00 !  which doesn't make much sense... but they clam that the reason for the 200% increase in output is because the RF frequency has to be tuned to the cell Plate capacitance. other wise you are beating your head against a wall and shooting in the dark....
their unit is supposed to make a series of tests in steps through the entire range and record where the highest output was achieved at.... a fantastic time saver !  
... but for over $600 bucks I can find my own jug and do my own tests! LOL
...
adjusting the square wave pulses of the PWM to the right frequency seams to be a real problem
the Players of Old (Joe of the Joe Cell fame) discovered that the pulse had to be adjusted to match the Capacitance of the Hydroxy cell plates.
 Stan Mayer discovered the same thing again and told everyone about it , however no body has been able to re produce Stan's results.... probably because they didn't bother with the extensive Modulating RF frequency pulsing PWM ! .... lets face it that's not so easy to reproduce and get working as some people think !
...
 I have made in my time a few I.C.747 chip oscillators that can be used to make a very wide range square wave generator, or sound generator.... what have you.  each time I made one of them it took weeks of tinkering to get the darn things to actually work !  LOL !   and out of one of them I made a Audio amplifier/filter to help with my CW receive on my ham radio....  that is what damaged my hearing I believe.... I don't hear high tones very well any more ! ...needless to say it REALLY amplified the sound !
  making the square wave generator is easy, making the gated switching transistors to handle the large amps is a bit more tricky because of the lack of schematics....
 if you find a schematic of a good frequency adjustable PWM please post it here !...post it in the plans section for everyone to use !
....
 I think the major problem is Knowing what the capacitance of your cell IS.... and getting the PWM to adjust to that capacitance in oscillations.... to harmonize with it...
  there was a Mention that the plates could crack in micro fractures if the impulse intensity was turned up too fast..... but I seriously SERIOUSLY Doubt that!  yes your trying to harmonize the entire cell and get it to harmonize at the frequency of water.... 2 things completely different
and each equally hard to do.... but I doubt you could stress the metal in the plates hard enough to crack them..... I have never seen a ham radio weakened by Micro fractures and they have a heck of allot more power going through them than one of these cells do ! <grin>
...
 So its not just a matter of making the PWM  its also adjusting the cell to harmonize with the water's resonant frequency, AND then pulsing the square wave DC at that frequency....
I truly believe this is why so many people have tried to Replicate Stan Mayers Cell results and have failed....  Adjusting the Resonant frequency of a cell can be a problem in itself ( one of the main reasons that Stan Mayer used TUBE CELLS, because their ease of tuning!) and may or may not be needed, but Stan said it was!  ... then with the cell with its resonating frequency adjusted to the frequency of water.... You can then introduce the pulsing square wave and adjust to best output
...
 According to the people at HHO4Free.com, the tuning of the cell isn't needed just tune the pulses to the cell.... now weather that is correct or not remains to be seen!  I imagine it depends upon the cell you are using !  some may work great and others not. this would explain their variable results when tested on many cells.
... although they clam every cell produced much more HHO than using normal DC brute force method... how much more was depending on the setup !
...
 ...
 so Don't expect to get a 200% increase off of your cell.... it depends entirely on the plate size and its capacitance  ( its capacitance is directly related to its resonant frequency!)
....
 if anyone is seriously thinking about going this Route I sujest you look long and Hard at STAN Mayers accomplishments  and use your brains to figure out the un answered questions!
... he gives the dimentions of the cell but that is only part of it  putting all 3 of the main things in line and working together is a tough task...but may indeed result in a 100% hydroxy engine!
...

another thing is that a cell doesn't have to Harmonize directly on Water's resonant frequency... a cell can and probably Must be on a HARMONIC of that freq.  and still get the same effect
....when adjusting things to resonate on given frequencies such as RF frequencies they are almost ALWAYSE adjusted to a Harmonic of that given frequency...because simply the resonant frequency is just way too big! ..... the same thing would be used in a HHO cell and probably adjusted to the 4th or 8th harmonic of the resonant frequency in question.
....
 I am not sure but I think water resonates at around 4hz making a wave length about a mile long!
so obviously a fraction of that length is all that can be used and that is where the Harmonic idea comes in at ! ... a grid-dip meter will read RF frequency Harmonics ! and may well be interesting to put on on a cell and see what ya get! <GRIN>  (now where did i leave my grid dip meter?)
...
My 2 coppers!
Bob......




 

[Bob]

just got back from allot of reading on Stanly Meyers stuff.... I saw some schematics and noticed immediately that he had a variable POT on the center tube on his Hydroxy cells to ground.... this may well have been his tuning devise !.... "in fact I'd bet on it!".... other wise why in hell would you add a resister to ground on a Hydroxy cell ?  in doing so you create a path for electrons to flow and take away a great deal of power going into the electrolysis ! .... don't you think he KNEW this already?
...it had to be more important than the negative effects!
....
 so its my guess that he tuned each cell by the added POTS......
  he probably got the cells working, set the PWM at the approx frequency and then tuned each cell for max output by eye.... then tuned the freq again... then re tuned each cell  till after a while he had it in perfect tune and max output !  ....
 Man that feller WAS indeed a clever feller!
...
in his drawings the cells were just 2 tubes ...I said earlier 3 or 4 but in his schematics they were only 2 tubes an outer tube and an inner tube.... the inner one was grounded by a variable resister to ground..... very curious indeed !
.... I would imagine that the pots were in the MEG ohm resistance...area... no way of knowing.
...
the frequency, Amplitude and duration of the pulses on his "Power supply" (as he called it) what we have been calling a PWM.. were all adjustable.... and now it looks like his Hydroxy cell was adjustable as well ! HAHAHAHHAHHAHA
....
Bob.......

[Bob]

Brad :
if the Hydroxy gas thing fails or is less than needed you could switch to WOODGAS...
 its a viable replacement of gasoline and had been use sense the first world war.
the only problem that is really major is its HUNGER for wood ! it takes allot of wood to power an engine on Wood-gas.... there is no free lunch and although the Woodgas burner on my truck is supposed to work I have yet to gather up enough wood to fill the 55 gal drum !
 According to my readings a woodgas generator the size I have to power my Dodge 350? V8 should go through my 55 gal Wood hopper in about an hour... giving me the ability to drive constant for an hour
 but its about 1/2 tear of wood to fill that hopper and it needs to be dry oak no bigger than 3"square
2" is better...  i have chainsaws and all that but making wood cut up that small is a major problem!
...
 if you have a Wood-lot in your back yard that is an alternative to powering your Household generator
... my Wood burner for my truck is detailed here on the site , but I didn't put in a COOLER... something I will have to ADD if I want to keep my engine running as it removes the pitch and gunk from the gas...
...
 I've yet to try my wood burner... it SHOULD work but there is no telling! the test is simply seeing if it will actually power the truck !...
...
is an alternative.... if you have no wood lot perhaps you could get the tree guys to dump their chips in your yard ! LOL
 a few Woodgas burners have been made to burn the wood chips...
...
Bob......

[Brad4321]

My land is completely wooded, but I do not like chopping down trees. Fallen trees, sure, but there isn't enough of those accessible to do much good. I convert all of my woodburners to propane to keep from logging...just part hippy I suppose.

Do you have any interest in building any of these "power supplies"? I can't see very well anymore either, so I know the feeling. I'd send you some money if you wanted to produce some. We, as a group, could really succeed if we each specialized in testing/creating products for the group (just like a company)!

Pulley finally came in yesterday. This pulley just about weighs as much as the alternator, no joke. One of my gauges came in as well. I will have an update this weekend on what I get accomplished.

[Bob]

I really can't Brad... sorry...
 I can't see good enough any more and my hands are getting shaky as time goes on too. Soldering is getting more and more difficult!
...
 Yes I'd love to have one of the frequency adjustable power Modifiers (because their not a power supply per say!) but I doubt I could make one for my self.... given enough time perhaps <GRIN>
...
sounds like the pulley you got will make a good flywheel ! LOL !
good luck on your testings !
...
Bob.......

[Brad4321]

How's everyone doing with with Great Flood of 2011, which I heard today is now official, topping the flood of 1927?

I have been under water since early march, 3' deep in my front yard. Roads all around have been shut down due to being underwater. This is all very similar to the flood of 2008, in which it got 11' deep around here wiping out residential areas and severely damaging industry. Extensive rain broke 3 dams consecutively flooding everything from here almost to lousville (about 70 miles away). I was apart of the day after cleanup crew of that flood and it is something unimaginable. 11 feet of water and mud does tremendous damage when it hits the heart of a city. Luckily this year no dams broke, although we have received much more rain than in 08.

I have been sitting by on the trigger to put crops in the ground. Most fields still have standing water, although I got lucky and was able to plant yesterday. It wasn't technically dry enough, but I (and everyone else) are running out of time fast. May 15th is the last day to get in corn to get a good harvest by frost. I was only able to plant half yesterday before the rain came back I have rain scheduled for 12 more days, the farthest the forecast goes out. Who knows when it will actually slack up, although the heavy downpours seem to be mostly gone, just spotty 1/4" today, 1/2" tomorrow.

I have no idea how extensive this is around the country, but evidently it is widespread except in Texas which is under severe drought. This is going to be a very hard year for crops, and after last year being very lackluster around here as well, I can't really afford to have that happen again.

I hope by the end of the month to get back on the hydroxy train. I haven't touched it much since my last update, just painted things up a bit, started on the alternator bracket, and got my gauges in. I still should be able to have my first test runs in by early june, which is about on schedule. I have quite a bit of side work this year, 2 full repaints and 1 partial still left to complete by fall, and that is taking up any time I am not stabbing at the ground. I did get lucky in the fact that I was hit hard with small engine repair early (February) and got them knocked out early. Usually everyone waits to have their small engine service about april...when the grass is 6" high already and they need it done yesterday.

These gas prices skyrocketing since my last update is hitting everyone hard. I know one thing is for sure, I am burning a liquid ton of fuel in my tractor, so much in fact I may add HHO to it before my car. The fuel receipt seems a lot heftier this year than last year and money is a bit tighter than usual. As soon as I clear out the spring work, which is coming along quite well overall, I should be able to spend quite a bit of time this summer on this project and hopefully "complete" it before the fall rush. I have been thinking of a few additional ideas that I will update with in the near future.

[Bob]

ACK ! sorry to hear about the flood there Brad ! too much water is no fun at all !
hang in there hopefully things will dry out soon and you can see some of that corn pushing up !
you never know, with this much late rain , the fall frost may be delayed a good month or so.... at least we can hope !  in my experience it usually works out that way, mother nature seams to work for us some times if she can.... although we have had so many volcanoes in the recent time over the globe it may mean a long cold winter.... I am hoping  that we will have a long summer myself !
... I've had enough rain and cold for a while myself !
...
Hang in there Brad and keep after that Hydroxy stuff !  and definately put one on the tractor !
diesel or gas ... it don't matter ! every MPG you gain is money in your pocket !
...
Bob....

[Brad4321]

OK...So I got the bright idea of doing some volunteer work this summer. The second week of may I volunteered to do a job that was suppose to take a week. I didn't consider loosing one week of the year a big concern, and I don't mind helping someone out. Two months later I finally finished. It ended up being one of those "well, let's do this too, and then this, and then this...". I finally said enough is enough, finished what I set out to do originally and shipped the project. Now, not only am I two months behind schedule on my testing, I also can't finish one of my projects this summer. By not finishing that project, I am loosing about a grand. In any case, I am back now in full swing and just mowed my yard for the first time in a month.

I have spent 75% of the weekend on this project. The stand is very near completion. The alternator is mounted, batteries mounted, belt guard in place. I have started work on my gauge panel and air in/filter pipe. Both of these will be completed by this weekend. The gauge panel will be the trickiest part. The gauges I have bought are pretty cheap and without much dampening, so I will need to find a way to minimize vibration in the panel. I have a couple of ideas. The only thing I am waiting on now is the wiring. I have ordered some 2/0 wire and ends to get her all wired up. Luckily I won't need much 2/0, that's expensive.

I assembled my cells quite some time ago but never made a test run. I got one cell all wired up in one of my containers to do a test run this morning. Used sugar free koolaid for electrolyte. I found out my lid doesn't seal and I couldn't get a LPM reading yet. However, despite using the 2" washers, this one cell is the biggest producer I have ever made (and I have 9 of these 2" randy cells total). As soon as I hit it with 14v, it instantly foams up and despite the clear container, I can't see a thing. However, it gets hot, fast. I will have to play with my electrolyte concentration a bit as I may have it a bit too strong. My battery charger is only reading a 3 amp draw, but I don't think that is right. I don't have a high capacity amp meter yet, although it is on my list. In any case, I am so far happy with this cell. Once I get the container sealed up, I can't wait for a LPM reading. I am guessing about 1LPM. It is a small cell in a small container, so it can bubble like mad and still not make much. 1LPM is all I was after on this cell. This will give me 9LPM total, and I have plans for 9 more cells in the future. 9LPM will give this briggs a good run. I am hoping to make my initial test run next weekend. This first run will be all stock running off just gas to give me a baseline BSFC. I will be using the cells to load the engine down, but just venting the gas to atmosphere. I will still have to build a doubler and reservoir before actually injecting the HHO, and I hope to have my first HHO runs in a couple weeks. I don't have any sort of plan on completion of this test as I expect to run into multiple complications when I start injecting large amounts of HHO, specifically timing problems. I don't doubt that I will have an MSD box on this engine before it is all over. I have talked a bit to someone who is also playing with a briggs and they have had one suggestion...before it is all said and done, it will likely be easier to convert this engine to fuel injection using megasquirt. Instead of dealing with this not very adjustable carb, I will have complete control over the injection. I have played with writing tunes for FI with my race truck, and I know it is not easy. If I do end up doing that, I would still be working on this next year at this time.... I can see a motorcycle carb in the future as they are much more adjustable (and much better carbs). However, I will max out the stock setup first and see how far that takes me.

I also started working (the other 25% of this weekend) on my test vehicle. I am doing some aerodynamic mods and a few other things in preparation for my MPG challenge. I am working on what I would call stage 1, or hard modifications (such as aerodynamics) for MPG. My goal is 35mpg highway, or a 4mpg improvement over my current MPG. Stage 2 will be my introduction of HHO of around 9LPM with a goal of 70mpg, year round, with the common sensor fooler technique. My stage 3 will be my 200mpg goal, which includes three more aerodynamic mods, doubling the LPM, and a custom tune for the ECM.

But enough of future plans, I have a lot of work ahead of me on this project here. I am not giving up and although I do have a few things to do this summer (my winter 4x4 needs a new front axle and my furnace is broke), and as well as starting school again as a full time student and employee in less than a month, this project will get my full dedication. I am very interested in HHO and have a high drive to complete this test as I feel it will give us all some valuable information. By september I will have approx $3500 into this, so it is no joke.

[crb]

Good luck in your endeavours.
I wish I could get some good luck.
crb

[randy]

I would mount the batteries on a separate stand, vibration will kill them, good to hear those cells work, I'm about to build a new cell with 2"X1/4" hole cell for testing with the amp limiter, the new build configuration makes them so easy to work with.

[Bob]

Glad to see you again Brad !
yah its been a while sense your last post !!!
You can rest assured that "Someone" Benefited from your volunteered time and effort. and it makes ya feel good inside to KNOW that you have helped !
...
yah even at 3 amps a Randy cell will send up a cloud of bubbles so thick you can't see anything but a cloud ! sounds like its working great!
...Yes the Randy cells get hot Super fast in a SMALL container... that is why I made 5 LARGE containers
for my bunch of cells I plan to make, ..although I have just got as far as making the containers for 5 of them.... working on the house has taken most of my time lately!
....
 Your plan sounds good to me ! ....please keep us informed on your progress !
I used number #8 multistrand Heavy wire, to attach to my cells... even running one at 40 amps didn't get the wire hot  so I believe #8 will suffice to hook all the cells up #2 is over kill and to the battery that's a good thing to have ....Overkill ! but when you branch to all the cells you can go with #8 and run it as far as 5 ft or so (I think ... mine is only about 3ft) but if you plan to go all the way to the trunk of truck bed then using the #2 is a fantastic idea!
when you do your Test run, loading down the cells... please vent the HHO a long way OUT side away from the exhaust sparks !  9LPM or so would fill your shop to a dangerous point in seconds  and if it did and ignited it would level your place and probably kill you in the proccess... so play it safe and vent it a LONG way away !...outside the shop.... it will go UP fast and fill the rafters  and work its way down in a building...  a building full of HHO would be like setting off a 5 gal propane bottle inside .... there would be nothing big enough to call  building any more ! <grin>
play it safe !
... if your Randy cells work like they should 10amps should get you 1LPM and reduce the heat a great deal... but large 1 gal containers are the way to go (see my post of my containers on my 100% hydroxy truck project) the parts list is there as well
 good luck to ya Brad and Hang in there  ! Keep Cool !
...
Bob......


 

[Brad4321]

The batteries I am using are junk batteries. They are in the system for nothing more than voltage stabilization as all the power will be coming from the alternator. Nevertheless, I do have them mounted on rubber and have some concrete blocks weighing the stand down. The vibration is significantly less than the first time around with the added weight. I have not loaded the engine down yet, but if the vibration is bad loaded down I will move them off the stand.

I used the 2" cells and small containers due to space constraints in my car (pontiac grand am). I have sense traded cars with the wife (now a 2.3l 5 speed ranger) and my space constraints are not nearly as bad as they used to be. Nevertheless, I planned on a recirculating system from the start. Not only will this keep the heat down, but it will also keep all the cells full on extended runs. With my new found real estate in the ranger, I may keep the 2" cells just for this project and bump up to the 4" as everyone else is using. In either case, I am a ways away from that at this point.

The 2/0 wire will just be from the alternator to the batteries for a solid 200 amp carry capacity. From the batteries I will use 2/0 to a junction block and wire the cells individually with significantly smaller wire, 10 gauge, from there. 10 gauge will hold 20 amps for my short runs with no problem, although the plan is to run these cells at 10 amps each. It will give me a bit of leeway in case the magic point of these cells is a bit above 10 amps.

I will be venting the gas outside, as well as my exhaust. I would love to have a heavy duty load bank so I could load the engine down without the cells, but I will have to work with what I've got.

I did read through your post early this morning. A lot of good stuff there. I was going to go with a setup like yours originally for my containers, but the cost was high. I have $4 in the containers I have now, but it seems that once I seal them up, they are 1 time use only should I ever need to disassemble the cells. I may end up with pipe cells before it is all over.

[Bob]

Ack ! sounds like you are constructing a bomb Brad !!!!
 Seriously... the cell container needs to have a POP off cap of some kind.
granted the Kind I use are a bit spendy at $3.00 ea. for a 2" pop off cap
and $7.00 ea. for a 4" pop off cap.... My first containers were of ABS sewer pipe a normal 4" cap
glued real well on the one end (don't skimp on the glue and work fast! or it may leak) and a 4" to 2" reducer on the other end ...the 4" pipe was about 18" long and the container held about 1.25 gal of water. I had to glue in a short piece of 2" ABS in the Reducer to make it the right size for the 2" Pop off caps to fit .... but the container was and still is a good one I am using it on my truck right now
the Pop off cap is a necessity in my book... putting on a normal cap won't work without sealant and then you have a bomb.  if and when a flash back occurs it will go all the way to te bubbler and you stand about a 75%~25% chance that it will make it through the bubbler and flash back in the cell as well
 if your cell is sealed up it will explode.... I've never popped the pop off cap on my truck's cell but I have in the bubbler.... so far so good  but I expect it to happen some day (and it will!) so its best to be prepared ahead of time !
....
now you might not think that a few cups of HHO would blow up enough to shatter PVC or ABS pipe but rest assured it Does !  and if your standing there working on it you could catch the full force of the shrapnel !
 You can make your own EPRV (Explosive Pressure relief valve) fairly easy with a spring and a stopper
but by the time you buy all the stuff and make it, you could have just bought the pop off cap in the first place <Grin>
...
when I tried to run my Briggs& Stratten engine on HHO I did not have a bubbler in line, just the line from the cell to the intake manifold through a ball-valve.... the first pull sent the pop off cap about 200 ft in the air with a Tremendous BOOM !... after hunting down the pop off cap and trying it a good dozen times with each time the same results !  I decided to change the timing... and found I could not go far enough without major changes to the motor or point plates/magneto pickup coil.
so I gave up on that idea for a while.... I couldn't even get the spark to fire close to TDC.... its built into the engine that it will fire at about 12deg before TDC. I thought about using a battery and coil and another set of points and trigger the points by a bolt on the flywheel... but that was too much trouble !
....
 I did get the engine to fire 3 times in a row before it did a flash back and sent the pop off cap into orbit again ...lol  that told me if I wanted to I could run the engine on HHO but I'd have to do allot more work to get the spark right to do it !
...
Believe me you do NOT want a sealed cell container,  even one with the threaded plug is a bad idea ...they do explode violently !  if you have to stretch some inner-tube over the opening and secure it with a big hose clamp !  at least that won't blow up on you !
...
Bob....

[Brad4321]

I do not have a pressure pop-off on each cell individually, but I do have one in the holding tank and bubbler. All the cells are connected together with one line running to the bubbler and another to the holding/recirculating tank. My containers are cheap tupperware, nothing of any kind of strength. Are you saying that I absolutely must have a blow-off in each cell as well? That seems a bit redundant.

As far as timing, I know that will be an issue, and knew so from the start. However, with the briggs aftermarket, it won't take much effort to convert this to electronic ignition with a tone wheel and hall effect sensor. A cam sensor is not required as long as I keep it waste spark ignition (it will fire on compression and exhaust strokes), as the briggs is stock. A tone wheel cut to fit on the rear, indexed with the crank keyway will work. I would prefer to use a highly adjustable unit, such as the MSD, so I can mount the tone wheel once and have great adjustability from there. I have a lot more research to do on this, but I am also not ready for it yet. I want to see how far I can get on the stock ignition for informative purposes. Not too many people will convert their lawn mowers to electronic ignition, so I am also curious what kind of improvements I can get on the stock ignition and carb.

I have a fairly large yard and I burn through the same amount of fuel each week in my riding lawn mower alone as I do my car, no joke.

[Brad4321]

Figure I would give everyone a little eye candy. Here you see my scrap metal belt guard and air intake pipe. The big stainless bung in the middle is for injecting HHO, the smaller bung will give me a vacuum measurement. There is also my new 4 way adjustable alternator bracket as well. I have approx 1" adjustment in both directions.

I also found the ultimate vibration show stopper today. I am not sure if it will work as it is designed for a slightly larger, multi-cylinder engine, but I am going to give it a shot. If I can make it work, I should be able to figuratively sleep on the stand.... (I have used these isolators before, but forgot about them)

[Bob]

Howdy Brad !
thanks for the Pix  looks like its coming along just fine ! we'll see if the engine can pull the Altenator under full load though ! 
...
 to answer your question about the pop off caps.... NO not for tupperware  they will pop not explode like a bomb.... ABS or PVC will blow up tupperware is soft enough to distort a long way before bursting
so you should be fine on the individual cells with tupperware.
the holding tank however must have a pop off cap as well as the bubbler  (I am assuming these are stronger material ) however if a flash back does occur and get to the holding tank you'll pop all your cells at once as well.... might be very noisy in that shed for a few days till you get it all figured out ! LOL !

the bubbler SHOULD stop all flash backs but with 9LPM coming in "I would devide that between 2 bubblers instead of just one ".... the reason is the constant stream of gas coming in to the bubbler will allow the gas to travel straight through the bubbler and continue on, it does this at 1000ft per second, the flame front is super fast !... So, deviding the bubbles into 2 bubblers will lessen the chances that the HHO can get through the bubblers in a flash back siduation.
...
 I don't know how close the bubbles can be and not ignite through the water and have the flash back go through the bubbler, but I do know it can happen with a heavy flow of HHO in a bubbler the closeness of the bubbles to one another is the key to preventing the flashback from making it through the bubbler, the further away the bubbles are from one another the better off you are.
 ...
Bob...

[Brad4321]

Nah, everything is tupperware. The bubbler is significantly stronger tupperware, but nothing like PVC. I do like your idea about running two bubblers; I was thinking about that today actually. The bubbler material has a screw on lid and is actually pretty stout for food grade, and is about 1L in size. I don't have a reservoir yet, but it will probably be a small bucket or something equally weak.

What are you running for a pop-off? I have found a metal, adjustable 0-20psi pop-off for a fairly reasonable price that I can just integrate into the lid. I will have a pressure gauge in the system to make sure it doesn't build any measurable pressure itself.

[Bob]

What I am calling a "POP off Cap" is actually a "Red Plastic 2" TEST CAP" found at Home Depot hardware store... they come in sizes from 1" to 4" and go up in price from $2~$7 ea.
... they cannot stand much heat however, their construction is very simple, there is 2 thick plastic washers with a rubber donut between them and a bolt and wing-nut to squeeze the washers together which expands the rubber donut...
....
 I saw the same type of "test Caps" in Orchards Hardware Yesterday when I was in there, however these were metal in construction with a rubber donut between them, however they were not Stainless steel and would rust quickly.
heres a close up Pic of one of the 4" Pop off caps I have on my 5 new Containers.
...
Bob...

[Bob]

Brad, I don't want you to hurt yourself by using something that will contain the gas in an explosion
and it sounds as if that is what you are planning on doing so beware!... that hard clear plastic used in food grade containers is very tempting to use... I know I bought a 2qt one with a air tight lid for my cell to sit in.... it split wide open when I drilled the hole in it however so I never got the chance to use it.
...
 I would Like you to do a quick experiment so you have a better idea of what you are dealing with
Garenteed it will supprise you !
... take your working cell and plumb the gas into a small balloon.... blow it up with HHO to about the size of a grape fruit or 4" in diameter or there abouts...
tie the balloon off and take it outside.
set the balloon on a stool or something off the ground and light a candle and stick it on a long stick at least 6foot long and then light the balloon with the candle.... don't light it with your hand or you will loose all your hair ! and probably your hearing as well.
you need the DISTANCE away from the BOMB to be safe...
   Once you see how Volatile HHO is you will take the safety precautions very seriously ! (NOT TO SAY THAT YOU DON'T ALREADY)   
   Needless to say it is a EYE opener ! how such a small amount of HHO can be so extremely Violent and then consider what that will do in a container I think you'll see that a POP off cap on everything possible is in order ! <GRIN>
....
 I don't mean to Harp on the obvious, this is one aspect of HHO that almost everyone underestimates.
I did and I am no new comer to exploding gasses, this HHO stuff is in the proper mix of Hydrogen and Oxygen to explode.... it needs nothing else, its perfect the way it comes out of the cell...
it doesn't have to mix with the air, or anything else it simply goes "BOOM"
the closest thing I can think of to describe how nasty it is is with an Oxy-Accetiline torch
if you adjust the flame to a perfect torch burn and then snuff out the flame on a plate and then capture the gas in a balloon its almost the same kind of explosion. very violent !
....
 at 9LPM you are generating about a stick of dynamite every minute ... at least that's my guess <GRIN>
 If that ever got Loose in the shop it could be the death of you !
so please be extremely careful !

...
I know the ABS pipe is expensive , I spent over 100 bucks on the 5 containers I have now and I need 5 more.... but I am re assured that they will NOT BLOW UP ! ( un like other containers!)
...
 Perhaps for test purposes your right in going as easy as possible but be extra careful
a piece of that hard plastic lodged in an eye would ruin your day !
...
Bob......

[Brad4321]

I use them plugs that you show at work. They will hold quite a few PSI. Of course, they depends a lot on how much you crank them down.

As a kid, I would take a pop bottle and put two screws into it almost touching, fill it with water and hook a battery charger to each screw. Let her run till the bottle is real tight (pressurized) and throw it in a fire. Had no idea that I was making was HHO at the time, but it was still a whole lot of fun.

I really don't see how what I am doing is any more dangerous than yours. I have seen plastic pipe explode. It explodes into tiny fragments. At approx 125psi, if the pipe explodes it can be downright deadly. This is why it is highly not recommended to build an air piping system with PVC from an air compressor. Of course, if HHO would explode, it could be well over 1000psi depending upon lot of factors. Sure, your rubber plug will go before the pipe would explode, so now you have launched a steel/rubber projectile. If my cell would explode it would be no worse than PVC exploding, but most likely much better. The plastic is so thin it bulges out the sides with just a couple PSI (blowing into it by mouth). Plus, I am sealing the top with RTV. RTV is not a strong glue with this material.

If the cell/bubbler blows, no matter what it is bad. The key will be preventing that from happening. The bubbler should take care of a good percentage of that chance. A spark arrestor in line would also not be a bad idea.

[randy]

Brad, tupperware should be fine, it's durometer is low so it doesn't readily crack, that means no schrapnel, but at least wear ear plugs, an easy test of the gas is dunk your output hose into a bowl of water with some dish soap in it and light the bubbles, if you're within the city limits some calls will hit 911 hahahhaha, the most I've messed with is 4 lpm, I'd be nervious with 9 lol, have fun and be safe.

[crb]

You only need to do Randy's test once hahaha
crb

[Manta]

Brad4321,

...A cam sensor is not required as long as I keep it waste spark ignition (it will fire on compression and exhaust strokes), as the briggs is stock...

I can't see why you would do this.  It seems that the waste spark is the cause of all the flash-back problems.

It looks to me as if you really do have to gear the timing down to get a spark only when you want it.  Every second revolution.

Dave
(manta)

[Bob]

Your correct Manta most flash back problems are indeed caused by waste spark ...
the briggs&stratton 8hp does indeed have waste spark, the plug will fire one time every revolution because of the magneto and points under the fly wheel.... however the newer ignition kits (which I never did get to work at ALL...) are supposed to get rid of the points... yah right!
anyway... gearing down the ignition is one approach to give you a 2:1 ratio of revolutions/spark then you could time it about 2 deg after TDC and be done with it ...
but the way the engine sets stock it is a real pain in the Butt.... it will fire at about 6 to 12 degrees before TDC for the compression spark, and then again just as the intake valve opens and is drawing in the HHO... the results is a flash back through the intake system straight out the intake pipe... this if stopped by a wad of fine cotton stuffed in the hho line (which may or may not work as a flash back arrestor) would be no real problem as the flash back is very quickly consumed and it should get some sort of intake charge to run on... but that is questionable ...iffy at best
it might very well run like that, sort'a like a 2 stroke on the intake stroke where for a split second it puffs out the intake then sucks like mad for the intake stroke. I don't know ! if that will work or not... but its a possibility.
controlling the spark is what made me give up my trying to run a B&S on HHO.... I couldn't find a practical way to do it... that certainly doesn't mean another person can't either !!! LOL
...
As Randy said and I agree tupperware containers should be fine and not explode... but they will POP
and set you back every time they do ...because you'll have to stop and re seal the lids and all that.
...
... I have really cranked down on those Pop off caps a few times to stop leaks around the top and they have never cause the container to explode or crack ... that could be just dumb luck too ! HEHEHEHEHE
...
 My biggest concern is the holding tank... it doesn't need to be very big...and it Must have a lid that pops off if the HHO explodes... "obviously" that's only common sense.
...
I'm not real concerned about your experiments Brad because as you said its no more dangerous than what I'm doing... but I am going the extra length to make sure its safe and Hope you do as well!
...
Getting that ignition to work on the Briggs is going to be the "big Trick" ....it might even be easier to put a magnet on  the cam shaft gear and a reed switch on the outside of the housing and use that to fire a auto coil for your spark...
taking the cam out and drilling a small hole deep enough to hold a rare earth magnet, epoxie the magnet in there and re assemble the thing  and put a reed switch from radio shack on the outside of the aluminum case...  you can mount it anywhere there, there is enough room around the cam's bearing
on the outside... even mount the reed switch on a plate for timing... its a thought anyway.
...
However you accomplish it, I have faith in you that you can do it ! your workmanship this far has shown that much ! <GRIN>...
 but starting with an engine that you have a distributor to turn sure would be allot easier
... I have a 12hp single cyl old monster engine out back that used to have a gear driven magneto on it
the engine timing was completely adjustable... a perfect candidate for your project... unfortunately this engine is shot and will never run again, but if you could find one like it you'd be much further ahead ! ... even a small 4 cyl car engine might be easier than using the briggs ! just something with movable timing!
....
Bob..

[Bob]

Um... hold on a second... I remember checking where the waste spark occured on the 5hp B&S but for the life of me I can't remember exactly.... I think it was right at the intake stroke but now that I think about it I can't be positive... If the waste spark is as you say on the exhaust stroke  then there is no problems at all with the waste spark... it won't hurt a thing.
but if I remember correctly, it can do that because the fuel air mix is not compressed yet and it doesn't ignite.... although that seams very hap-hazard at best and I seriously doubt anyone would engineer an engine that sparked on the intake stroke... that just doesn't make any sense.
sparking on the exhaust stroke , fine there is no problems with that... but on the intake ?
...
 I do know my B&S engines (all of them) have waste-spark.
the car doesn't because the distributor is geared down to match the firing order of the spark plugs...
...
So Brad... don't let me lead you astray, I could be wrong on that last post... the o'l brain isn't as sharp as it used to be <GRIN>
...
Bob......


 

[Bob]

Been trying to remember about that Briggs& Stratton engine's spark....
 U do Know that every time I pulled it through if Blew the safty pop off lid off the HHO generator
"Every time!"  not just once or twice....if I pulled that engine through to try and start it it popped the HHO lid and I had to find it again to re set it and try again....
that can only happen if it's wast spark is on the intake stroke... I figured that they could design it that way because it was gasoline/Air  mix going in the intake and not compressed... that sure seams a stupid way to do it but then again there is allot of stupid things on a B&S engine.... points that you can't adjust the timing to without changing the point gap....a carburetor that barely atomizes the gasoline at all,the "L"head or flat head design that is older than the states, and most of them still have PIPE threads in the block for the exhaust !
.... but all in all they work surprisingly well ! heheheheheheh
...
if you pop the head off your B&S engine and then set the magneto back on the shaft in its key way with the nut finger tight, you can check the waste spark and where it happens by seeing where the magnet passes the coil.... I'm fairly certain its on the intake stroke...but you might be able to change its position  if you can change the timing far enough.... if it fires on tdc the waste spark may be far enough to have the valve closed then...its a possibility.
....
BUT...if that intake valve is open when the waste spark takes place it will ignite the HHO every time
and go straight through the Intake ...
...
Bob....

[Manta]

Bob,

Won't it be on the overlap when both valves are slightly open ?

So there would probably be some hydroxy around at that point;  enough to ignite.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

I dunno Manta...to be honest, I'd have to look ! I got too many things going right now to do that!
I tore into the Spring this morning and pored concrete to seal up the leaks... hopefully that will cure the problem I've been having !.... running low on water is no fun when its HOT !
...
 it should be dry enough to fill up by tonight... we'll see !
....
about the waste spark. I do know it was a major problem on my experiment...a "SHOW STOPPER"
so it has to be dealt with in order to get the B&S to run on 100% HHO.
...
Bob...

[Brad4321]

I feel like a complete failure. I wanted/expected to be in the heart of testing by now, if not complete. Guess I have big dreams but nothing to back them up.

Nevertheless, I have made progress in my absence from these forums. What I would call "stage 1" of my aerodynamic mods has been completed after a lot of manufacture problem/new product defects. I don't yet have solid, repeatable numbers on my MPG increase, so I won't give any numbers until I do, but I will say that it is a positive increase... Reading some of my old auto engineering books I believe I can hit around 40mpg with basic aerodynamics alone. It will likely be a bit under, I will speculate 38-39mpg interstate. I will be taking a trip across the states for thanksgiving and will be able to tell for sure then. Weight has minimal impact at highway speeds and is all based on aerodynamics. My highway mpg was a consistent 31mpg (bouncing from 30.3 to 31.9) stock. It is a 2001 Ranger, regular cab short bed 2.3L 5 speed. I am not sure if I mentioned already that I have switched vehicles. It is getting the same base highway MPG as the wife's grand am that I was going to use. I don't yet have any city or mixed mpg numbers on the ranger.

I have a prototype hydroxy setup made for the truck, but no numbers on it yet. I won't be running it on the truck for a while longer as I have a bit (a lot) more tuning/reconfiguring to do.

The test stand is ready to go except for one piece of wire. I ran out of welding cable. Once that comes in, I should be able to start testing. I did move the batteries of the stand as recommended and this through my cable distance off. Making big welding wire cable is a lot easier than I expected. Once I start getting data I will be more active.

[Manta]

Don't let slow progress discourage you.  Any progress is good progress.

I keep doing a bit on my cells,  then breaking off to do some more urgent work on something else.
I've had three simple two-plate test cells sat on a bench in the shed for weeks and haven't got around to mixing the electrolyte for them yet;  even though I bought a rather expensive kilo of 99.9% pure Citric acid just for that job.

You'll  get there in the end.  Only to find out that it wasn't the end really and then you'll be of on a new test.

Best advice I can give is to keep on visiting here for some inspirational reading. And keep posting,  even if it's only the state of the weather in your town, or how your tomato's are growing.

Dave
(Manta)

[Brad4321]

I have been doing a bit of reading on ecomodders as well. I believe to hit my ultimate goal, aerodynamics will be just as important as the hydroxy. There is a ton of good info on ecomodders. I believe we would all be better off to take some of their hints vs just pumping more hydroxy in. All improvements are improvements and each have their place. They have one idea in particular that I love and will put to use here soon...it is pretty cool, and I will post pics of that for sure. I was able to find a pulbished scientific journal on this idea that gained 12.5% increase. That is pretty good.

[Bob]

Hay Brad ! good to see ya again !
 I agree with Manta,  slow progress isn't that big of a deal, eventually you'll get it done!
...
I've been playing with my new Motorcycle more than anything else (blush!) and havn't touched the Hydroxy stuff sense spring....shame on me !
but I figure I'll get it done eventually ! HEHEHEHEHHEHE
...
I am thinking of making a full body for my Motorcycle and would like some hints on the areo-dynamic qualities it "SHOULD" possess...... do you have a URL for that site ?
...
Bob...

[Brad4321]

www.ecomodder.com

They have a couple whole sections devoted to aerodynamics, and quite a few members with totally redesigned cars.

[Manta]

Bob, Brad,

Years back I bought a Norton 500cc ES2 that had a 'dustbin' fairing fitted.  This was fine for the aerodynamics,  but had a couple of problems.
First it did keep you nice and dry in the rain;  until you stopped at the lights and then there was no breeze to dry you out.  So you stayed wet.
Then there was the problem of fixing a front wheel puncture.  Couldn't get the wheel out due to the all-enveloping front shell.

So I took it off.  If I remember correctly I left it in a pub car park somewhere in Kent. Glad to see the back of it.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

thanks Brad I'll have a look-see !
...
Manta... I'd have Killed for that fairing !
 that's the thing about production fairings they don't cover your head or back when stopped at a stop sign and you arrive at your destination totally soaked !... been there done that too many times to recount !
 that's why I'd like to make a fairing for the XR650L that actually keeps me DRY
I was outside looking at it last night with the yard stick in hand getting an idea of the shape it would have to be.
 I figure the handlebars would have to stick out through the side, in the weather but Plastic hand guards can be installed to keep the hands dry.
  in the normal seating position that would make the top of it about 50" from the foot pegs
... that is a LONG way UP there ! but I gave it about 2~3" above my head for the helmet and head clearance.... it wouldn't do not to be able to move your head in there...
... I figure the back would be terminated in a Line down to the tail light and back to the foot peg on the bottom.  thin and pointed over all design not so much Rounded.
 I think that would be better in use.
.... hard to say though...
 I may never build it because I'm getting spoiled, if it is raining I take the car any more !
LOL !

Bob....