The little engine that could...

[Brad4321]

This thread is to conglomerate my newly found interest in just what we are capable of, and to do so in a semi-scientific light. I am not trying to sell anything or acquire any personal internet glory (and internet money!), so we will see how this works.

I had forgot what I had stored in the barn, to say the least. My 3hp briggs wasn't a 3hp afterall. It is nothing short of an 8hp briggs. This engine is virtually brand new, just 1 season of running an elevator. She's a little dusty and needs a good cleaning.



While I was there, I was suckered into fixing a 5hp briggs with a sticky exhaust valve. Took it apart last night and found that the keeper/spring retainer was cocked causing the valve spring to ride the valve, wearing a deep grove in the valve stem causing the valve to get stuck occasionally. I love these little engines. Don't care much for kohler and the rest, but I can work on an old briggs just fine.



To my surprised, guess what else showed up in the mail 2 weeks early. Yeah, that's right! Going to be a busy few weeks. I was betting I could get the stand done before the stainless showed up.



Enough of the picture show for now. This is my current plan:

1. Build a test stand to securely hold the engine, alternator setup, battery packs, generators, boubler, gauge panel, etc.
2. Mount engine and alternator, get engine running (needs a carb/tank clean and some TLC)
3. Remote mount gas tank (or a fabbed tank) and measure BSFC under full load of alternator...and determine if alternator will fully load this engine. Install needle valve that will allow me to precisely control rate of gasoline into engine*.
4. Install HHO system, the same system that will later be put on my car.
5. Slowly increase HHO into engine and determine what ignition timing issues I have, and correct said issues.
6. Run engine up to maximum HHO production and calculate how much gasoline (if any) must be added to continue running. Recalculate BSFC under multiple stages up to max HHO production to see potential fuel economy gain at different LPM. Most importantly, calculate the LPM/potential mpg ratio of this engine per horsepower and liters/cubic inches.
7. Should engine not be able to produce enough HHO to run itself, hook up the rest of my generators to an outside power source to determine what LPM this engine will idle at and LPM for full throttle/full power.
8. Should I successfully make it this far, I have a "secret test" that I would like to do, and if it is successful, I will post results. I am under the theory (but not completely against) the thought that we cannot generate enough HHO on the fly to power the engine. I do, however, have an idea to increase the efficiency of this with very minimal additional cost (a few dollars).

*this idea may be completely changed for something different, we will see how practical/easy it is.

I do not have all of the details worked out as this will be a see what happens test. My two big head scratchers are measuring the BSFC as accurately as I can (I can't measure it the same way the manufactures/government does as I am short a few million dollars in equipment, but I am not looking for specific numbers like they are, but a percentage gain), and ignition timing.

Despite scoring the 8hp briggs (not really a score since I forgot about it, I suppose, but it is like finding money in your old jean pockets), I did lose on the alternator. I thought I had a spare 200amp 1 wire left, but I remembers that I sold it with my old car. This will be a moderate setback due to the cost of the alternator.

Off to start building the stand.

Edit: Step 1 mostly complete. Will add a bottom shelf later for batteries. Made from recycled scraps from torn-down houses. Got me a big pile of wood that way, but took a few days to de-nail.

[Manta]

We will be following this with great interest.

...Should engine not be able to produce enough HHO to run itself,...

It won't.

Manta

[Bob]

Fantastic Brad ! GO FOR IT!
...
I have to agree with Manta on that it won't be able to produce enough HHO itself to run the engine alone
....HOWEVER it may well produce enough to run the engine above idle... and that in itself would be a triumph!
....
GLAD to see the 8hp B&S.... that's the same engine I have on my saw mill ! and the timing can be moved further on it than on the other engine... so definitely use the 8hp !
...
 your going to run into a few problems that I can see... hopefully we can work them out before you get to that point! <GRIN> first and formost that I can see is the engine turning the large altenator....
at best it will be hard pressed to turn the altenator under full load.... at worst it will bog down and kill the 8hp engine...
... that being said, it is essential that you get the generator/charger unit working top notch before you try any fuel changes...or you'll not know what you have at all.
...
you'll probably need 4 to 6 cells to run that engine on 100% hydroxy gas... that is ALLOT of cells!
... learn from my screw-ups and make each one in their own container don't try to put them all in the same container it won't give you the output you need!...
 I would try to run the engine on 4 cells at full Output first...and see if you can get it to run at an idle... it might !
but be darn sure you know what your LPM is...  4 cells at 2LPM each is 8LPM ... and it should run on that.... but if your cells only produce 1LPM each that is only 4LPM and I seriously doubt it could stay running on that little of HHO.
...
buy a few cans of Quick start sense you have a rope starter.... it'll save your hands!
...
 I wish you Luck ! if there is anything I can help with just ask ! ...
...
Bob......

[Brad4321]

Should we be able to produce enough HHO on the fly to power the engine and have enough power left over to do some work (the discussions here lately), why could I not replicate this on the briggs? ICE is an ICE. I understand that this engine being a "flathead" design is less efficient than our OHV designs today, but this point is truly moot (if the engine efficiency affects working or not, go or no go, then HHO would only work on certain engines). Although I am truly interested in the LPM calculations, part of this is to see in real time whether a or not our "PMM (perpetual motion machine)" will work.

This is a scaled down "car" engine that is small enough that a car alternator will max its power. Let's say at a full 200 amps will be full load for this engine...this means that at 100 amps output I should be power the engine leaving half the horsepower left to do real work. Should this actually happen, I have load resistors that I can use to draw the other 100 amps loading the engine down. This is no different than using half your car's horsepower to power the HHO, and the other half to turn the wheels. I just happen to be using the alternator for both. Should this happen, it would work for any ICE. If I can't make enough LPM to power this engine from the engines own power, you won't be able in any ICE. Whether I am using a 1/4HP engine or a 150hp 4cyl, the exact same rules apply. The 3hp briggs would work just as good (all timing issues aside, which I will still likely have), as will a rotary or any spark fired ICE. Car alternators suck power based off of amperage output. A 200 amp alternator turns just as easy as a 60 amp when both are producing 20 amps, or 60 amps (for all intent and purposes here). A 3HP briggs may only have enough power to make 60 amps, but should the PMM theory work, 60 amps would be more than enough. If 60 amps won't power 3hp, then 600 amps won't power 30hp, and down the line...it is all within scale.  I wouldn't put a car alternator on a 1/4HP engine as that is getting a bit ridiculous, but a lawn mower alternator, sure.

No problem with the cells. I have enough washers to make 9 cells now. Once I see their output, I will order enough for another 9, or step up washer size if their performance is lacking. I am hoping for 1lpm/10amp, or to at least hit our standard of efficiency. The cells will be tested independently of this test rig since these cells, or ones like these, will wind up on my car eventually. I have already planned putting each cell into its own container with each container linked to a reservoir to stay full, and of course the gas output linked going to a boubler before the engine. May use PVC pipe for the container, but I will look into my options..want something nonconductive.

Should this engine bog at full load (with no belt slip, another issue I know I will have), that is excellent. I knew the 3hp would bog or reach stall load, which is exactly what I want to do. Since I do not have a dyno, I will be trusting briggs's 8hp measurement. When the engine starts to stall under full throttle at max rpm, I know it is making near 8hp which will make my max power BSFC measurements the most accurate. Since I no longer have the alternator and I have to get another one, it may not be a 200 amp. I will see what size is the best bang for the buck. I am thinking I will need a 160amp minimum for my car, so I may get a 160 instead. The numbers state 40amps per HP, which means even on a 200 amp I would not effectively bog down this 8hp. We will see.

There are plenty of issues that I will have, I have no doubt about that, but I would like for everyone to agree on my testing procedures (which will be posted more in detail as time goes on) so we can all agree on the results. I want this to be a test that will help everyone along.

[randy]

The first 2 washer cells "randy cell" I built had 22 plates, I had them in a pvc pipe with about a quart of tap water and about 4 tablespoons of baking soda in it, didn't have an ammeter at the time, with my truck running I was testing the output of the cells with jumper cables, the 1/4" hose was hissing the amount of gas exiting was immense, I unhooked the fuel line from the pump and let it run out of fuel, plugged the line from the cell onto one of the intake manifold barbs, started the truck, it ran rough as all hell but it ran, I messed with it for quite a few minutes, every time I tried to throttle up it died. But it did run, I tried again later but all I could get it to do was spit and sputter a little, after disassembly of the cell I found the reason, the thing was packed with green slime and could no longer produce anything, there's no doubt in my mind it can be done as I was using the trucks battery as a power supply and I was sure the truck wouldn't start at all before I fed the hydroxy to it. If belt slip is a problem then fashion an idler close to the alternator pulley to provide more wrap.

[Brad4321]

My worry of belt slip is due to running a single v-belt. Most of the big alternators that have v-belts run at least 2, I had a truck with 4 v-belts a few years back. Can only put so much tension on the belt until it smokes the bearings in the alternator. I will be able to get around 240 degrees of wrap on the test rig, can't improve that by much, probably to around 300. May have to swap to a double pulley on the engine. Pulling pulleys on these engines that have sat a while can be very problematic at times. Need to find a way to cog these like a timing or blower belt...that would fix it.

It would be great to know the lpm/amp draw you had. Don't know what truck you have, but with my trucks (with v8's and larger alternators) I can get about 50 amps at idle max. With a 4 cyl truck you may only be looking at 40 amps, stock alternator of course. That isn't a whole lot of LPM capability there, but it could have been drawing on the battery too. This is my main focus/goal, figuring out the LPM formula. If all works to plan, I will be able to verify my numbers on my car as I should have the LPM and amp capability to at least give me a smooth idle.

[Brad4321]

This weekend's productivity:



My template got crooked on the last set I drilled and those cells aren't perfectly symmetrical as you can see in the pic, but we will see how it works. No warpage this time around, the 1/4" plates solved all the warpage problems even with drilling such a big hole in a little washer. All 9 are ready to go, just need some containers. Will be making a trip to the store sometime this week. Can't wait to see the LPM on these. I would be totally thrilled with .5lpm/5 amps. I don't expect a huge output, but I would like to meet or beat our basic efficiency standard. These are small enough that I can stack them very easily, which is my goal. Depending upon the LPM output, I will either order another set of 100 or step it up to the 4" washers if these flop.

My flatbed crapped out on me this weekend, which I need running as it is nearing planting time. Cost to fix was $193, which was going to a new alternator  . Always need a bit more OT.

[Bob]

Oh WOW ! good job ! 9 cells ready to go ?
I hope you have done a continuity check on each cell ! and it passed !
... I have a cell that looks like the one on the lower left... not lined up very well at all... but it still produced almost as good as the ones that were perfect so  I used it anyway !
...
 I'm impressed you did a good days work there Brad !  I wish I had all those cells I'd be done with my cell making instead of just starting it ! HAHAHAHHAHHAHA!
...
Now for 9 separate containers !  and you'll be able to get 18LPM out of those if you have the AMPS to give them !
....
I'm going for 10 cells for my toyota R-22 f.i. 2wd pickup (2.4liter I think) that should make enough HHO to run my truck.... probably not at full throttle... but enough for most useages I think. we'll see...
 I'm planning on a 250amp or 300amp alternator for that truck as well... that's going to hurt the pocket book! ...but I have to have it!
 the container I was going to use split wide open on me today so I have been modifying things to fit in an old ABS container that I had for the "Smack Booster"... I had to remove some plates down to only 7 plates... but testing will tell me if that cell is going to be good enough... if not I'll do what you did and make 6 or 7 more "Randy Cells" and use them
...
the reason I keep saying separate cells is because you won't be able to draw any more than about 38amps per container even using KOH... less if you use Lemon aid... but if you split them up and put one per container you can get 20 amps to each easy.... other wise you will not be able to get the amp draw needed to make the cells operate at 2LPM each. (they need 20amps each to do that!)
...
 learn from my experience on that because I put 3 Randy cells in one container and tried to draw 60amps and I could only get 38 max.... that spoiled everything!  even with the electrolyte at max concentration it couldn't draw the needed amps to produce !
... subsequently i disconnected one cell and only ran 2 of the 3 cells for about 3 months straight...
after I first put them in I got close to 45mpg  it held that for a good 2 months then started dropping fast.... wound up with almost 1/4LPM when I checked it and I tore it apart  boy was it a MESS... brown coffee like goo, thick like 30wt oil on the bottom of the cell...all the plates were tainted brown.... ...( I started out with just barely under 3LPM for 2 cells at 30amps)
I used Muratic acid and soaked it for 10 min and then flushed it out real good with the water hose and then I got some shinier plates again.... ran it for about 3 weeks then removed it because of the snow and freezing temps... hasn't been back on the truck sense.
 I tore it all apart to inspect the cells to find rust on everything...it seams I had normal steel in there somewhere.... the rust was so bad that it even shorted out some plates.
 I discovered that the shim-stock I was using was rusting ! ... as well as a few nuts...  and here I thought I had it ALL stainless steel inside too ! LOL.... you can't fool the cell !
...
 You did a fantastic job on those cells Brad ... and I don't see any shim-stock at all.... how did you do that ?
..
Bob.....

[randy]

should work fine, one thing I found with those 2" washers, and the 4" washers is they are punched out making them slightly concave, look at them closely and you can tell one side from the other, with you using that configuration you'll want them all facing the same way, you'll get nice even plate spacing that way.

[Brad4321]

Didn't even think about that randy. I just looked at my spare washer and it looks flat. I will straight edge it later and see. My plate gap is pretty decent. I wish it was tighter, but unless I mill down the washers it won't be...same situation you mentioned in the other thread. Without a mill or access to anything like that remotely precise, I will leave well enough alone.

These passed continuity check first time through. These were incredibly easy to assemble in comparison to some other designs I have made. It would have been a lot quicker assembly if I hadn't run out of hose halfway through. I cleaned out the garage the other day and found my first cell. It was starting to rust! Real good stainless there. The stainless I used here is slightly magnetic. I was talking to my machinist friend a little while back about cutting these out on his EDM and he told me he had some 4" stainless bar stock and I wouldn't need to get washers. He then shot me a price and it was $530 a foot and I needed about 13"! I forget what grade of stainless he said it was, but it was something special. I'm sure it would have worked great, but I think I will stick with my $.010 washers.

I am wanting to put these in 3" PVC, each in separate containers. I will have a recirculating pump and reservoir for cooling and keeping the cells full. Heat is a concern of mine as my previous cells have always ran hot, never ran this style before so I can't really comment on these. It is one thing running them under the bumper of my car, but another on a stationary test stand in the middle if summer (which is when this whole setup will probably be operational). If I could get 18lpm out of these I would die from hysteria, but I am taking the pessimistic view right now...better to be surprised than disappointed! I will be using lemonade as that is all I have ever used...I like it better than KOH or the others.

My test car also has a 2.4l 4 cyl, although I am shooting for a few more cells than you (I have a less optimistic LPM outlook). Be leery of the over 200 amp alternators, most of those aren't rated for continues amps due to the heat produced. They are marketed to audio competitions and can only run at full power for a couple of minutes at a time. It is better to run twin 200's or twin 160's than a single big alternator. Each alternator will run cooler and despite having double the pieces to break, they will last longer than a single big alternator just because of the heat. Now, you can get large frame alternators that can handle the heat, but they are the half the size of your engine! I have been doing some reading on and off on alternators and there is a lot of good stuff there, especially on the cheap high outputs...such as using a GM 10si case for a 160-200 amp and not upgrading the cooling...they burn out rather quickly. We are a special case in comparison to most, since most buy HO alternators for stereo systems and those are not a constant high draw giving the alternator time to cool. We run a high draw continuously, and this can really test the cooling.

No shim stock, just all-thread, washer, nut, and hose. Plate gap is right at 1/16. That one really crooked cell in the bottom of the pic is a tad over 1/16. I will take it apart and play with it some. The rest are all pretty good. I can't wait to get a LPM test...maybe by this weekend.

[Bob]

Brad...Did you use insulating pieces between the plates to keep them flat ?
... I bet you'll get 1.75LPM at 20 amps at least..... that's my guess  sense you said the gap was 1/16"
if nothing else that much HHO will really streach the gasoline on the generator if you find some way to cut back on the gasoline real good...
that 8hp motor has an adjustable mainjet I believe and makes adjusting the gasoline a snap !
(that little "T" screw on the bottom of the carberator)... get it running add the HHO and then start cutting back on the gas till it starts to stagger.... of you turn it all the way back and it don't stagger try adjusting the air screw on the idle mixture....
 I wish I could be there to see it work ! ...HAHAHAHA
...
Bob.......

[Brad4321]

I used 4 small squares of plastic glued to the washers as spacers. 3/8" rubber hose cut to approx 1/8". The hose stretches tight on the 7/16 nut keeping it from falling off or wondering around.

When I get everything going, I will video tape each run in its entirety for posting here. The plan is to have everything well documented with real, reproducible numbers.

[randy]

Heat is always a problem, one way to combat this is low amps, on my original MK1 I found that if I ran them at 10 amps each the temp never exceeded 120 deg. The build I'm currently working on I intend to have a large capacity electrolyte system, I'm going to concentrate on building 1 high output cell, from my experiments surface area is key to getting mass production, the more surface area you have, the more amps you can feed it, the more gas you will produce, so I figured to combat the heat thing I'd just have a large cell and feed it fewer amps to prevent runaway. In my initial test on this cell I fed it 15 amps cold in a 1 quart container, I noticed a few things immediately, just a pinch of k-aid was all it needed, visual output is impressive, after all the plates are drilled, spacers glued in place the cell is a snap to assemble and disassemble, the electrolyte is almost clear, shortly after powering the cell I couldn't see the cell in the fluid due to the cloud of gas being made, it made huge bubbles and sounded louder then a boiling pot of water. Not sure if I'm on to anything special here but I like what I see so far. enough of my yammering, time to go glue some pipe together and do some testing.

[Bob]

Brad... I dunno if you caught the posts I made about Rubber hose and continuity or not but Definitely check the hose you used for continuity...if it shows ANY resistance at all don't use it!
I still have an old steel cell out in the shed with something like 20 plates all 1/16" spacing really a nice looking cell, but I found the insulators I used showed resistance through them...rendering the cell useless ( besides the materiel was normal steel) so it sets on the shelf.
...
 Most "Black Rubber" will show resistance.... use vinyl tubing instead! resistance through the insulator just causes HEAT and wasted power.
 I even had one HOSE I used as a container seal Melt on me !  I try not to use metal containers now!
or black hose!
...
posting a video here is problematic their big and the site can't support them, but if you link to them and store them off site that's fine!  I like just plane o'l pictures myself as they go a long way in helping to explain whats going on !
...
Randy... You got it buddy, but to do work, Make HHO you need power... that takes the form of volts and amps on our vehicles.... 12 volts we really can't change but the AMPS we can... that is why I am alwayse saying MORE AMPS! MORE AMPS !  because there really is no substitute for it....
 of course you need the Plate area in the cell to Handle the amps... And I feel as you do the more plate area the better off you are the more amps you can throw at it...but there is a point at which adding more plate area does not translate into more HHO
  Sure a Cell will function with LOW APSI (amps per square inch of plate area) but you can get to the point of "Why bother?"when the output is so low.
 I like .2 to .5 APSI  that seams to work the best for me. and the heat isn't all that bad usually.
 I have never tried a 1:1 APSI but I'd like to some day although its probably just wasted power, it may show a hidden quality in HHO production that I've never seen before.
....
 Your absolutely correct on the large Electrolyte capacity ! that's the secrete of keeping a cell running cool.... add cooling fins on the resivore if you need to but the larger a capacity of Coolant you have the better off you are !
...
I don't have a 1liter bottle so I can't do my LPM test unless I use a 16oz container and try to figure out the math ! ... and my mind is like puddy today with this new medication...lol so I think I'll test the container for leaks and leave it at that till I get a 1 liter bottle!
...
Bob...

[Brad4321]

The washers are bent slightly, approx .005" worth. That is within my margin of error this time around.

My hose is clear neoprene, suppose to be electrically and chemically resistant. I will play with it later and see if I can get any ohms out of it. I haven't used this type of hose for anything like this before.

I have my own website (where I have been hosting everything so far), and I have plenty of space and bandwidth to go around at this point.

Well, we can change the voltage, especially if we are going to add additional alternators (and battery packs) to the mix. I have been pricing 16 and 24v alternators...16v is made for drag cars and you can't get a high amp output, 24v is mostly older heavy equipment and semi's, high outputs are available but about double the price of a comparable 12v ~$700 for a few hundred amps.