Large 4" washer build

[randy]

Here's a basic diagram of the build.

Now on to the nuts and bolts.

#1 are spacers made from a plastic coffee can lid with a paper hole punch, there are two glued together to get the.045" thickness needed, and glued to the washer surface, this is to keep the spacing even.

#2 are 5/8" OD. vinyl tubing cut to surround the jam nuts, same height as nut thickness.

#3 are 3/4" "O" rings. only 2 needed or may be replaced with anything to insulate and supply pressure to keep spacing even.

#4 are common plastic bottle caps with sides removed and 1/4" hole.

The holes are 1/4" and 5/8" the 1/2" hole in center is already there.

[randy]

Start by placing one of the bolts with flat washer under head in one of the 1/4" holes and tighten jam nut, insert one of the vinyl sleeves into 5/8" hole,
place a flat washer on the other bolt and then one of the bottle caps, tighten jam nut as shown in picture.

[randy]

Place one of the "O" rings around vinyl sleeve, this is to supply pressure to the plate to correct spacing, insert vinyl sleeve into large hole on second plate.

[randy]

place the second plate so that the vinyl sleeve surrounds the nut on the first plate, insert the bolt with the bottle cap and nut into the first plate and sleeve, apply a jam nut and tighten.

[randy]

Keep adding plates vinyl sleeves and nuts until you get to the last plate, then place the other "O"ring and bottle cap on the bolt, tighten down with nut. as you can see in the second picture the plate edges aren't quite even, a little squeeze in a vise will correct this.

[randy]

Pics

[randy]

All lined up.

[Manta]

Randy,

Could you make your attachment a little smaller.  It won't fit on my screen and thus I can't use the scrole bars to move around it.

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

 wow that's odd, I shrank them down 75% to post them, not sure what I'd need to do. they don't show up very big on this computer?

[randy]

Manta; what operating system are you using? I've opend the pics with mac OS X 10.6.6, Linux, Windows 7, Windows XP, non show up huge, not even filling the screen?

[Manta]

Randy,

It's just the first picture I'm having problems with.  It look from the data as if it's a photobucket type image (stored off your computer)  The rest are .jpg files. I have no problem with them.

I'm running XP.

Maybe if you can convert the top one to .JPG, or post another one in .jpg format,  then that will fix it.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Randy !
 Fantastic Documentary on the build !  and I have no problems anywhere with the pic's but I do agree about the first picture, just post it as normal if ya would <GRIN>
...
Personally I was thinking the pictures are a bit SMALL manta ! HAHAHAHAH
...
I love the pet dishes container... I am sure you could make them seal up without leaks by having about 6 to 8 #10 bolts around the edge and silicone sealant....allot of it!and once bolted together put more silicone around the joined surface... if you come up with a leak on a bolt just cover it real good with the silicone as well.
...
 I am Very impressed ! its a PERFECT CELL ! I can't wait to see the LPM numbers for it (and amp usage)
...
 THANK YOU FOR YOUR Contribution ! WELL DONE!
...
Bob......

[randy]

Ok I'm confusilated, lol is it the pic or the diagram?, the first pic is 415 kb, the diagram I pasted the link from the other thread "4" washer build"

[Bob]

LOL yah its the diagram... Not the pic.  I guess Manta has trouble with some pictures... needs to upgrade his OS I think <grin>
I was just thinking you could just POST it again  no need for the link  HAHAHAHAHA
more than likely Manta can't see the diagram because of the format so change it to a .jpg he can see those !   ...
 fantastic build Randy  REALLY  its the best documented on the site  ! thank you !
....
Bob......

[Bob]

hay Randy... did you check the resistance of those 2 "O"rings ?  just fer kicks???
black rubber usually is a poor insulator.. it almost always has some resistance or in this case continuity to it.... if the cell pulls amps when its NOT WET that's the problem... I'd bet on it!
i doubt its worth any concern however as the resistance is quite high usually and the electrolyte fairly low.... just something to think about !
... after seeing how you built it I think I can stack my wall switch plate covers like that NOW !
I just need a paper Hole punch !  and allot of those spacers! HAHAHHAHHA the spacers I used were cut from zip ties but only ONE was used per placement and they weren't thick enough !
...
Bob...
 ...
( I'll nuke the comments after a month or so and trim this nice build up...have no fear! )

[Manta]

Randy.

Yeah,  it's the diagram.  Sorry for calling it a pic.  My screen shows it as 1056 x 816 pixels.

So I can only see about half of it and can't adjust the screen to get the rest.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

 Ahh
 I'm running 1440x700 rez on this flat screen monitor  that's why the bottom of the circle is cut off
... I understand Now !
its a .PNG Manta ...in case your in doubt. its a drawing of the stack and a washer, showing the parts...
no "O"rings or spacers though <GRIN>  but that would just clutter up the picture!
...
Bob

[Bob]

Randy I was going to put that pic of the diagram on there but I'll be hanged if I can find it !
where is it ? the link finds it fine ...but I can't tell where the link goes ! LOL
 I probably have a copy of it in my files though.... didn't think about looking there for it! LOL
...
 Hopefully you got a chance to test that puppy by now RIGHT
well, don't keep us in suspense! Out with it ! HAHAHAHAHHA
...
( that reminds me I need to find a new 1 liter bottle and a 2 liter bottle... and charge up the old truck battery for a test run... I'll use Lemmonaid !
...
Bob.....

 

[randy]

I will just redo the diagram, I popped that one out in about 15 minutes, I believe I used 11" X 8 1/2" for size, the "O" rings don't insulate anything, all they do is provide pressure to keep the plate spacing even.

[Bob]

Yes... BUT they will touch 2 plates of opisit polarity and if they so some continuity .......
red O rings are probably ok... come to that those black ones probably are too but there is a chance that they will have resistance through them.... if so you know where to look first ! LOL
.... I remember using store bought o rings on one of my very first cells using the O rings I got the plates nice and close, but every time I assembled it and did a continuity check the darn thing would give me 50 ohms or so no matter what plate I touched.... I took out the O rings and used coffee can lids instead which increased the plate gap... but the 50ohms went away... I picked up an oring and put both probes on it and sure enough I got about 30ohms or so ...the harder I pressed the probes into the O ring the better connection I got and the resistance would climb!
 I also tried to use inner-tube rubber  that was a JOKE that showed resistance before I even got the thing put together!  I decided to try it anyway and in seconds the rubber began to smoke...  and leak electrolyte... at the same time... burned on top leaked through the bottom !  I switched to the red silicone and that cured my leak problems and the shorts !
... Years ago I tried to use inner-tube rubber as a seal between the CB antenna and the mount on the roof.... don't you know my SWR's were really HIGH.... I finally quit playing with that antenna and put on a 102" whip  it was better anyway.... but looking back on it... I bet it was that rubber base gasket and not the antenna at all! HAHAHAHAHA
...black hose like gas line is also a good conductor, even vacuum lines some times... the rubber in tires and radiator hoses all will show resistance.... and especially Mud flaps!... so I've came to the conclusion that BLACK RUBBER of any sort is a no-no when it comes to an insulator for voltage!
strangely enough black PVC works fairly good ... but White PVC is far better !
... and my meter isn't a super fancy thing either...on the 2kohm setting it will see the resistance easy on a cell build... that's why I always do a continuity check after the build , before I put the tools up  HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH  I do 2 tests... between the pos and neg post of the cell ... if its ok I then check to see that every other plate has continuity with its post.... I do that for both posts.
...
enough rambling ! HA!

Bob....

 

[Manta]

Randy,

Just looking at the stacking and connections.

It looks as if every second plate is connected together.  And this would give you 12 volt between each pair.

So essentially all the plates are in parallel.

Am I reading this correctly ?

Dave
(Manta)

[Manta]

Just looking at the locked thread ' The infamous randy cell'.

I suspect the problem with instability may be down to the bolt to plate connections inside the stack.

There doesn't seem to be a good connection as the screw passes through the plate.

It only relies upon the screw 'maybe' making contact.

I know this thread is locked,  but this is just my opinion of there the problem may have been.

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

Yes, all plates are active, no neutral plates, my main reason for this is I don't want to use caustics for electrolyte, the kool aid I use works well with a parallel type cell with close spacing. the MK1 uses shimstock to ensure contact with the plates and seems to be reliable.

[crb]

Randy,
Am I correct to assume that you are using .045" plate spacing on this cell?
crb

[randy]

CRB; Yes, I wanted .010" but milling down the jam nuts proved to be a pain so I tried it just the way they are, seems to work just fine at that spacing. the build I'm running now has 5 plates, with an amp limiter consisting of 3 100watt halogen bulbs wired parallel on the ground end, k-aid electrolyte pulling 21 amps @ 2LPM output constant, does not generate heat.

[crb]

Sure wish I could figure out that 2lpm@21 amps.
crb

[randy]

Yeah, that cell you're working on has me baffled also, mine has no neutral plates, hooked to running vehicle for all tests.

[Bob]

there is allot to be said for that last statement Randy "hooked to the vehicle for all tests"
that makes a WORLD of difference... I can tell you from experience!
... I fought low OUT-PUT on my cells for about a MONTH then took Randys Advice and hooked it up to the truck and Walla' Good output the first try !  LOL
even though I was using a Halfway good battery, totally charged AND a 30 amp charger on full blast... the battery and charger could NOT keep up with the 20 amp drain!...PERIOD !
with it on the truck the alternator took up the load and it produced like it should have from the beginning! ... an entire Month of fighting the thing was wasted because of that
... now I test it on the BIG charger (which seams to handle it just fine by the way)
but draw NO conclusions what-so-ever, until I try it on the truck ! HAHAHAHAH
...
 Technically speaking, in THEORY anyway, the shape of the plate makes no difference at all
its the way you stack them and how you connect them to power
 I prefer Parallel hookup for a cells Plates, its what I've had the most experience with and best luck on production...  I've only had one cell with neutral plates that ever worked and that was the "Smack-Booster" I built from scratch.... it worked very well but the Tiny itty bitty "Randy cell MKI" out preformed it from the start! by about 1/4LPM
...
...
 ANY TIME YOU CAN GET 2LPM at 21AMPS you definitely have a Winner
...
the only reason I am not going to use Randy's exact build on my 8~10 cells I need  with the 4" washers is because of the size... they don't fit in a 4"ABS container... so I'll change to 3" washers and do the same thing... they'll fit ! LOL
...
Bob......

[Weapon_R]

I have always felt that if one can control the current neutrals are just a waste of time and money.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Bob]

Well Not exactly... you still need Plate Area ....a place for the water to touch the metal so the water Molecules can be broken apart... when that happens  you have liberated the 2 Hydrogen atoms (assumably still attached to one another) from the single Oxygen atom, witch floats away... sense the Hydrogen atoms are no longer associated with the Oxygen they are free to float to the top just like the Oxygen atoms... so you have 2 gasses from the water...
but it takes a large amount of plate area to pull this off
you can disassociate water with just 2 strands of wire... you don't even need plates at all but the amount is very small... to get more volume you need plate Area...
 HOWEVER there seams to be a CAP to the amount of Hydroxy gas you can get off of a given plate area no matter how many amps you give it.... logically this doesn't make too much sense because we are talking the size of ATOMS and one square inch of Plate area would be enough plate area to be equal to Billions of Hydroxy atoms...
here's the problem though, if you take one square inch in plate area !/2" for positive  and 1/2" for negative you can now generate up to as much HHO as you can get off that square inch with the MAXIMUM amps that you can give it... which isn't very much..."that's the problem"  the water can only hold a certain amount of "electrolyte"( stuff that makes the continuity of the water increase) so you can only give the 1sqr... say 40 amps ...max.. if that .  so the amount of Amps is LIMITED
 On the other hand if you have say 75 square inches of plate area, and hit it with the same 40 amps your output is increased a great deal....ok ?
 so you'd think that if you had 2000sqr inches you'd get even more output ! but it doesn't work that way... output will fall off to almost nothing... because you only have 40 amps.... and it takes a certain amount of power to rip the molecules apart.... if you spread that power to thinly it won't produce hardly anything at all.
...
 this is fundamental on how electrolysis works, its the "brute force method" and it has its own built in stops in its system. understanding that is the only way you can get around it to make larger production...
...
 Making Electrolysis work, takes POWER in one way or another. amps , volts or both
and you have to get it to the water in such a way as to still have enough power to rip the molecules apart easy....
  its quite easy to make electrolysis work to fill a small balloon over 20 minutes in time
but its quite hard to get 2LPM (2 liters per minute!) because it is right up there at the top edge of the curve... everything has to be just right to get that kind of output
...
 so Plate area plays a major roll in HHO production
so does Amperage to do the work.
...
if you take 2 large 1ft square plates and put them in electrolyte a foot apart the output will be small because the AMPERAGE flowing through the plates will be small... move them closer and the output will increase. because as the distance between the plates shrink the amperage will go up.. closer still, to almost touching and the output will depend upon the amps you can push through the circuit, i.e. how strong your electrolyte is
...
Neutral plates are kind'a strange...they are "Excited" by the electromagnetic flow and actually are Charged with power in the process...like a capacitor on the same neutral plate you will have a negative side and a positive side...in the same piece of metal! which is truly weird! but that is how it works, so even though the Neutral plate is not physically connected to power it is Under power never-the-less.  Neutral plates can be employed to make a fantastic cell that work really good , look at "Bob Boyce's 101 plate cell fed with High voltage, that cell is used by many WELDING SHOPS to make Hydroxy gas for cutting thick metal.... it works great! 70LPM ...I wish I had one! HAHAHAH......
....
hope that helps
...
Bob.......

[Weapon_R]

Bob thanks for the explanation. Production of hho is tricky business.

[Bob]

Not a problem, that's what this site is here for !
...a while back I came up with the  Idea that A.P.S.I. was perhaps the cure to the confusion
or APSI as I like to call it... the idea of adding up all the plate area and then dividing that number by the amps being used gives you a number of how much amperage is on each square inch on the cell....and doing some math on good working cells I came up with the number of .3 to .5 amps per square inch...  and I think that figure is still viable... unfortionately it doesn't work in every case.... CRB's cell has consistantly defied logic all the way through his testing...even though he has good APSI the cells output is miserable and this just shouldn't be so.
but its safe to say that it USUALLY works <grin>
so for any given cell size you can take those cell numbers and reverse it and tell just how many amps you would need to operate the cell at maximum output... and for the most part it works but it gives you missleading information and hints that AMPERAGE is EVERYTHING in Hydroxy generation when its not... for instance I ran the figures on a cell I designed using 7 1 ft square sheets and I wondred that the amp requirement would be on a cell that size running flat out... that's 1008sqr inches taking the average between .3 and .5 as being .4 APSI then we mutiply that by the 1008sqrin. and come up with 403.2 AMPS...
 Granted...  IF you could get the amps that high you'd probably get something like 40LPM but there is no way in HELL you'll ever get that kind of continuity in the electrolyte!
max amps you'll be able to draw will be in the area of 40 to 60amps MAX....
 if you re calculate the cell with that kind of amperage you quickly say whats the point! its not a cell anymore its a piece of metal in the water! heheheheheh
...
anyhoo.... HAY RANDY got any MPG figures for us yet on that new cell
....
Bob......

 

[randy]

Yeah mpg is still up around 50 mpg, can't get the carb any leaner, the carb I modded isn't going to work the way it is, the fuel pump is right in the way of the added needle adjusters, thinking of just getting one of those weber carbs and starting over. It'd be pointless to up my hho production until I get the mains under control but I'm liable to do it anyway hahaha

[Bob]

As CRB said on the other thread , put a plate over the fuel pump hole and use an electric fuel pump....
  or get a 1" riser for the base of the carb... they USED to make them for just about every carb on the market , but I suppose that went the way of 8 track tapes... lol !
...
50mpg ! Not to dern bad at all for a mear 2LPM buddy !  I would caution going for any more
because at 45mpg my truck started looking mighty lean on the plugs so I backed off to just 40MPG and left it there... only till I can get more HHO in there though then I'll go for that elusive 75MPG  !!!!! HAHAHAHHA
 I wonder how long a tank of gas would last me at 75MPG ?  probably 3 months ! HAHAHHAHHA
gott'a love that ! time for more Cell making!
....
Bob......

[Manta]

Randy,

I think I've asked this before somewhere,  but I can't find it;  so I'll ask again.

What is the voltage across the cell when it is pulling 21 Amp.  And what is the Voltage across the limiter at the same time ?
I'm wanting to calculate the Wattages for both items.

Dave
(Manta)

[Manta]

Randy,

Here is something that may be of use to you.

The cold start system on my old BMW uses a solenoid controlled injector that adds a little extra fuel into the inlet manifold just for the first six seconds after start up. Then it stays off until the next start.
I was plagued by the motor rich cutting out for ages before I found that this solenoid valve was stuck on and flooding the system.

Using such a system (which you can control with a simple on-off switch,  as I do now) will allow you to add a little more fuel when you start.

If you want to look further into this,  the car has a Bosch L jetronic fuel injection system 1988 BMW 518i

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

Manta; I just have to feather the throttle for a minute or so, I think that must be how long it takes for the hho to get to the engine, then it's fine. and yes, the voltage is divided between the amp limiter and the cell, one thing I've noticed is the lack of heat in the cell, it just doesn't warm up. I really like it, I didn't think it would be possible to keep a parallel cell from getting hot. I've had a few cold days that the cell started up at 20 amps, I thought the amps would come up after driving around a while but it did not. this may be a problem in cold weather. got some hot weather coming up, I'll see what it does. I had a thought, why not wire through the headlights for the amp limiter and use that power "for lights" though they might be dim if the weather is cold.

[H²+O]

is there a way to make an amp limiter that won't be bulky? because what i want to have is an alternator that is high output, but rather than get the E/lite perfect and it fluctuating with heat. have a limiter in place to maximum of 25amps through. so it will start and end at that set Amps, max draw.

lets say a 125amp alternator,
4 cells that i only want 25amps running to each and no more,
be able to turn off 1/2/3 or all the cells without having some kind of blow out.

 
 

[randy]

sure, the one I have is only 3"X2"X3" it uses 3 100 watt halogen bulbs and pulls a steady 21 amps, add another bulb 50 watt and you'd have about 25 amp draw, they don't run at full intensity and I haven't had a bulb blow yet, but they do get mighty hot so build your enclosure accordingly.

[Bob]

umm  I think he's meaning 1 amp-limiter for all 3 cells...
 and I THINK.... I THINK   you can do that by connecting all the grounds of each cell together
and then through the limiter....
  the cells would be in PARALLEL then... feeding all the cells at the same time with the same single lead in...
...
seams to me each cell would be limited to the amount the Amp limiter was set at (in this case 21 amps)
...
 Manta does that sound Right ?   <Grin>  I think so but my mind is mush at the moment!
lol
...
Bob.....

[randy]

Hmmm, I think that would limit the total amp draw to 25 amps. to work the way he wants each cell would need its own limiter.

[Bob]

yah it would...but sense its in parallel each cell should see 25 amps draw..... er I THINK!
...


ummm nah! I think your right Randy !  each cell would only have a portion of the 25 amps going through it.
.... it would divide the amperage by the number of parallel units...
so No ... ya gott'a have an amp limiter for each cell !
...
Bob...

[H²+O]

thanks a bunch randy! .

that way i can control the amps so no runaway goes on and then if i don't want as much hho i can turn off one cell and not have the amps go up in the others.

steve

[Bob]

There ya go ! you got it !
...
Bob....

[H²+O]

what about a resistor?? except they are about $20 each would a 300watt resistor work in reducing a 130amp*12v=1560watt alternator to 20-25 amps?

the amps are 'drawn' into the cell not 'pushed' so the cell might start at 20-25amps and then increase way too much as it heats up. would it be better to get a resistor or rig up 
 [Alternator-Battery-(split to 4 separate cells)-100w-100w-100w-50w halogen bulbs-hho/gen]    ? (the bulbs are put in series right Randy?)

don't want a over heat problem but be able to just saturate the water with Citric Acid for best production results.

got the stuff in the mail today for the hho/gens,,, $100 for that, now to drill the holes and build them. then off to lowes (which has all the needed parts where as Home depot doesn't)(and there prices are the exact same for 90% of everything...) to spend another $100 for the containers. then to an electrical store for the right connectors and wire! (and maybe some answers to those questions lol!!) i'm better at asking questions in person
Steve//....

[randy]

No; the bulbs are wired parallel, a 300 watt resistor should work the same. make a good template for drilling your holes, take your time and get it right, I've found the better everything lines up the better the cell produces.

[Weapon_R]

Randy have you any idea how your cell performs with Naoh.
Also does the electrolyte stay clean. I remember you saying that it burns out.
What do u think would be the life span on your cell?

[randy]

naoh yuck, sodium, I don't think the k-aid will burn out on this cell, it doesn't get hot at all, I think this is mainly due to the amp limiter, with the k-aid in the smaller washer cells the amps would drop a little after a long period of use, I'd add some more k-aid to get the amps back up, eventually I wouldn't need to add any more, just water. cell is still perfectly clean after several thousand miles.

[Manta]

H2+O (Sorry,  I don't know how to get the superscript 2.

What resistance is this 300 Watt resistor ?

Dave
(Manta)

[Weapon_R]

naoh yuck, sodium, I don't think the k-aid will burn out on this cell, it doesn't get hot at all, I think this is mainly due to the amp limiter, with the k-aid in the smaller washer cells the amps would drop a little after a long period of use, I'd add some more k-aid to get the amps back up, eventually I wouldn't need to add any more, just water. cell is still perfectly clean after several thousand miles.

Randy I have no plans on using naoh just wanted to know if it would affect the cell. I believe your down to 5 washers correct.
Would you be willing to build a cell for me?

[H²+O]

No biggy on the ² lol, (in all reality it's kinda a killer logging in when i'm at another computer).

not sure what you mean by resistance, would that be the ohms? or something else?

this is kinda what i was looking at but only because it's the only one that said '12V'. would it matter how many amps and Volts i put through any resistor just so long as it's below 300W??

http://cgi.ebay.com/DUMP-LOAD-RESISTOR-73-300-WATT-12-VOLT-WIND-SOLAR-/200622826401?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2eb60d63a1

Steve

[randy]

OK guys; I'm going to get about 20 2" fender washers with 1/4" holes and assemble with new configuration, then dial in with the amp limiter to see how many plates it needs, hopefully I'll get them washers at the local nut and bolt supply store, vancouver nut and bolt, they stock the 1/4"X20 stainless jam nuts, I'd really like to have a cell that works like the 4" one I have now but way smaller.

[Manta]

H2+O,

I can't tell from the advert if it is supposed to be a 73 Ohm resistor or a 0.73 Ohm .

The 300 Watt indicates the maximumn Wattage that the resistor will disippate before it burns out.

So for 12 Volt you could,  in theory,  pass 300/12 = 25 Amp through it.

If it was 0.73 Ohm then for 12 Volt you would have I = E/R  so I = 12/0.73 = 16.438 Amp.
And that gives 16.438 x 12 = 197.256 Watt. Which is safely below the 300 Watt limit.  So it probably is a 0.73 Ohm resistor.

That's with just the resistor strapped across the battery.

You won't have 12 volt across the resistor as the cell will be dropping voltage.  Just how much you will have to measure when it is working.
I would go with the bulb limiter like Randy.  At least we know that works.
And it is failsafe. if the bul(s) blow then the cell won't pass current.

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

$15 got me 25 2"X1/4" stainless fender washers off e-bay, should be here within a week, with the jam nuts, section of nylon tubing to make the sleeves, and a couple bolts this cell will cost about $20 to build.

[Weapon_R]

Randy how about building a cell for me. Here is what I like about the randy cell.
No neutrals which saves on space and make the cell more efficient. Personally I believe its cheaper to use a pwm and not use neutrals.
I am currently building a cell similar to randy's approach but its a dry cell. Not the problem is that I am not able to achieve the cell spacing that randy has achieved with the available gaskets.
I plan to use the weakest electrolyte mix possible and a pwm to control current.
I am also working on a electrolyte which is non caustic. No guarantee that this will work but its worth a shot.

[randy]

I think the problem with close spacing with a dry cell is the gas only has one escape route, where with a wet design the escape is 360 deg, a bit of a difference hahahhaha
Off to work.

[H²+O]

Makes sense to me Manta! i'll just go with the light  bulbs for now.. planning on leaving on Tuesday so need the cells built and operating before that (5 days lol)
thanks!

Steve

[Bob]

Geez Randy ! I just bought 15 washers at 7.95 a pack of 5... and they have the 1/2" hole in the center!
 you came out smelling like a rose on that !
...I did soe serious pricing at Home Depot and then at Lowes Hardware for the ABS 4" cap and 4"pipe
...and to my Supprise Lows was indeed lower in price this time... I have noticed in the last few months that Home depot seamed to have raised its prices on many things... I guess that conferms it !
I got some Fiber board there at Lowes too and some 2x4's, rather than have to use my band saw in the heat to make some <grin>
 I'm making a 7ft wide pass-through opening from the wall of the trailer into the add-on Room here
I already have the header up in the trailer and am working getting the 4x6 header up in the add on room...
the problem is the GAP between the trailer and the building wall ...about 2"  cats fall in there from the Roof and get trapped... so I have a hole busted in every darn pannel in that wall... so before I replace those pannels I plan on sealing the top so the Kittens can't fall into the wall ! LOL
...
Oh and I got gas today and checked my MPG and I am Hart broken  I was getting 40mpg but now I am getting 26.8MPG.... I have some serious tweeking to do to get my MPG back ! ...i suspect a sylinoid is bad in the fuel system some where but don't know which one it is...OR I just don't have the "Matt Valve" adjusted lean enough yet ....haven't really given it as much attention as it deserves lately.
been too busy working on the house ! LOL
....
Bob........

[Manta]

H2+O.

I aught to mention,  in case you didn't work it out  it in post 52 above,  That 16.438 Amp is the most you will be able to pass with that resistor in series.  If you put two in parallel then it goes up to around 32.8 Amp.  And pro-rata as you add them together.

Dave
(Manta)

[randy]

WOW, those washers I ordered are here already, didn't expect them till next week, here's their website.
www.AlbanyCountyFasteners.com
super fast shippers. gonna go heat up some drills lol. $6.00 for 100 jam nuts, crap shoulda ordered them too.

[randy]

huh; on inspection only 11 washers are truely flat, the rest have a bent edge or protruding center, nothing I can't fix with an anvil and hammer though.

[Weapon_R]

Randy I see that the washer are 304ss. Are these as good as the 316ss.

[randy]

304 seems to work fine with k-aid, but 316 is better quality.

[Manta]

Went shopping for nylon washers.
Our local engineering store had 5mm bore x 0.8mm thick washers at £1 for 50;  so I bought one hundred.

Dave
(Manta)

[Weapon_R]

304 seems to work fine with k-aid, but 316 is better quality.

Thanks good to know.

[Bob]

Randy ...
 Surely you can get those washers very flat with a hammer !  you just have to hit them all over the place while holding them flat, then flip them over and repeat. I use a large Ball-peene hammer with the flat side (not the ball peen side) and flatten stuff all the time... with a bit of care you can get it fairly close... it probably won't be within 4 thousandths but it shouldn't be too far from that!
...
however if their like the wall switch plate covers you just as well order more washers because
the things warp all over the place because of stretching ... and that will drive you nuts trying to get flat! LOL  I had the bright idea to flatten some WSPCovers with the hammer and by the time I had 4 flattened I could see the writing on the wall.... I stacked them up and it looked like Hell !
...but the washers are thicker and should flatten better than those things!
...
 I had a few 2" washers that were bent that I didn't notice when I bought them... laid them flat on the anvil and smacked them a few times, and that was all it took to flatten them .
the concave are the easiest to fix !  just lay them with the concave UP and beat it down
... one with a crease in it  I had was simple too just lay it crease UP and beat the crease down then flip and flatten the whole thing
...
I checked them by putting them in a stack of good washers to see if there was any separations... all but one was good... try as I might it would not lay flat dunno why ! probably stretched out because I beat on it too much ! LOL
...better by far to order more if ya can, but chances are a few hits with the hammer will fix them.
...
 I've been hobbling around like an old man lately...that tumble off the Bus did break a rib because its been popping in and out .... been using up allot of aspirins too LOL... i got some pulled mussels in my chest that remind me of my motorcycle crash ! HAHAHAHA
...so work on the pass-through between the dining room and the living room has slowed down a bit.
...so I haven't got back to the Hydroxy cells yet... too many Honey doo's in the way !
lol
...
Bob........

[randy]

Sounds like you need to just lay around for a while, let them bones knit up a bit. Went ahead and ordered 100 jam nuts and a couple sets of bolts, should have enough stuff for two cells, just hope I can get 2lpm from them.

[Bob]

Oh I'm sure you can Randy... you did it once ! LOL you can do it again!
... Have you came up with an easier container for the cell yet ?  or is the dog food dish good enough ?
....
 if you have 6LPM going to the engine.... How much gasoline will that replace I wonder ?...should be a sizable chunk I'd think !
should get you way past 50% perhaps close to 75%.... and your truck probably won't run on gasoline alone when you get the carb leaned out enough...
 that may give ya problems in starting.... make sure your accelerator pump is working and there should be no problems starting , you could just pump it a few times then hit the starter and it should fire up
hydroxy gas and all... but that is just a guess !
...
.... I'd like to see 6 cells on your truck !  not just 3 ....double that ! hehehehehehe
or at least keep adding cells till you have problems running on gasoline !
that might get you way up there to the 250MPG range...
 LOL can you imagine that ? you'd have to be careful NOT to fill the tank because the gas might go bad before you use it ! LOL .... might have to put some STA-BUL gasoline additive in the gas to keep it in good shape  because it takes so long to empty the gas tank ! LOL
....
You could come down here and fish in Shasta Lake Visit me, and return home on the same tank of gas ! HAHAHAH
...
 man I gott'a get my cells built ! HAHAHAHHA
...
Bob.......

[Weapon_R]

Bob when running so much hydroxy I'm almost sure timing would be a problem. What are your thoughts on the subject.

[Bob]

that's simple.... turn the distributor a bit and "retard" the timing
 I only turned my distribitor 2 deg in my truck but that's not with allot of Hydroxy gas either
it might take  putting the timing to 2Deg ATDC... or as far as 2 deg BTDC but I seriously doubt you'll need to go that far....
  the timing needs to be changed because Hydroxy gas burns so much faster than gasoline...
normally my truck is set at 12 deg. BTDC... (before top dead center)... with a bunch of Hydroxy gas in the works I expect it will take changing the timing to around 2~5 deg BTDC....
but that is a guess... the only way to tell is to do it and adjusting the timing so the engine isn't fighting itself all the time is CRITICAL......
 without the change in timing you will get "Pinging" or pre-ignition.... and a lack of power
...so you can't run the engine like that for long without damaging it. so a timing change is Needed
... some of the newer cars simply do not have a distributor on the engine at all... its ignition is controlled by the vehicle's computer.... making it unsuitable for Hydroxy gas use.
...
 I adjust the timing by "Ear" which is not perfectly accurate , just close... I can tell when the engine is laboring trying to turn over because the timing is not right.... some people can , some can't.... you can use a vacuum gauge to set the timing to peek vacuum  which is probably more accurate
...although I have not tried that so I don't know how accurate it is with Hydroxy gas, it may be an alternative to setting the timing by "ear"
....
Bob......

[randy]

Yeah; I do the lug test, if the engine spark knocks when lugging below 1000 rpm I retard the timing a tiny bit and repeat until spark knock no longer occurs, right now my truck is timed stock with just 2 lpm hho, I intend to have 4 lpm in the very near future, I had that a couple years ago until I had catastrophic electrical failure in the middle of nowhere, the timing was tdc.

[Weapon_R]

Randy have you confirmed the current draw of this cell and the output?

[randy]

yes; it's making 2 liters in 1.25 minutes at 20amps with the amp limiter. I'm running 5 4" washers to achieve this.

[Weapon_R]

yes; it's making 2 liters in 1.25 minutes at 20amps with the amp limiter. I'm running 5 4" washers to achieve this.

Randy I am a bit unclear as to how the amp limiter works in your setup.
If 20 amps flows thru the cell how much power does the entire setup comsume?
Also this cell seems less efficient than the 2 inch ss washer unit in regards to the hho output per amp.
That said does your mileage remain the same as with the old unit?

[randy]

Yes, the output of this unit has a little less output compared to the 2" cell, if the ambient temp is 80deg. or higher the cell draws 22.5amps, lately when I get off work it's been freezing, the cell is starting up at 18amps, and is noticeably harder to keep running for a bit requiring me to warm it up before I can take off, the choke is disabled. usually around the middle of this month we start getting hard freezes around here, I may need to remove the cell to keep from freezing, I am going to experiment with a LED being powered through the cell and see if It'll prevent it from freezing.

[Bob]

Yah I was actually disappointed in the output as well, but that's the way it goes !  you never know what kind of output you are going to get out of a cell till you hook it up and run it !
I've made many cells and none of them compare to Randys 2" cells !  and I can find little to NO reason for that.... it defies logic actually !
....
Bob...

[randy]

Strange, the temps around here have been in the 40s lately, the cell with 5 plates is pulling low amps, when I get off work at midnight the temps are mid 30s, it fires up pulling 16 amps, there is definately some warming occuring in the cell, by the time I get home it's pulling around 19 amps, I knew with it pulling low amps it wouldn't go through the water like it does in warmer weather so I hadn't checked the fluid in a while, today I checked it, the electrolyte looks like coffee??? can't see the plates through it?? so I drained it into a container and checked for sediment or goo, there wasn't any so I dumped it back in and called it good. I'm still going to add another plate in the near future so it will pull more amps with it being this cold around here, got that LED set up for freezing weather but haven't had a good freeze yet.

[Bob]

Coffee ? UGH !
when my cell did that it coated the plates real badly and I finally did the muratic acid wash out
to get it back to normal.... but I was using KOH not lemon aid ! ...I know I had some regular steel in my cell at the time ... I wonder if it was the steel tainting the electrolyte   I bet ya dollars to donuts you have some regular steel in there and its the Steel that caused the electrolyte to go brown on ya !
...
 hope ya don't have to do the acid bath to get it clean again, but it is a bunch simplier than a complete tear down!
...
Keep us posted on it please !
...
...
 do you have that LED on a thermostat or just a switch ?
...
Bob...

[randy]

after I drained the cell I could see the electrolyser, it was still clean, just have the led wired with an aligator clip, if it works I'll wire it up in a more permanent fashion.

[Bob]

the plates on my cell looked like bronze  they were so dirty ... but to their credit I ran it like that for probably a good month before I discovered the problem  so it had a good long time to bake in !
sense your cell is running cool-ish its a real good chance it hadn't baked on like mine did
... but i bet you got a steel nut or washer in there some where !
 I think it was Manta telling me at the time I probably had some normal steel in the cell because the KOH should not discolor otherwise.... and sense lemon aid just did the same thing I have to think now that manta was right  All along ... but don't tell him I said that...  LOL
....
Bob...
 

[randy]

I'm 100% sure there's no steel in there, I think it's just the fact there's probably 10 or more packs of k-aid in that quart of fluid and just using it darkened it somehow.

[Bob]

hummm well that shot that theory down in flames ! LOL
 yah that is allot of Koolaide !  do you need that much ?  I thought you had purdy close spacing in there....
   using the current limiter I can see running it as strong as possable though.... ...kind'a sounds like there is a point of "having too much !"
...
Bob...