Finding Room under the hood!

[Bob]

As the title to this thred says "finding Room Under the Hood" is hard some times! and infact it can be down right aggravating!
....
 I have a 1985 Toyota 2wd R-22 f.i. pickup  and you'd think there would be plenty of room under the hood for a Hydroxy cell or 2.... but the fact is that there is very little wasted space under the hood now days.... I found the room for ONE container a 4"x22" long ABS tank to put my cells in.... adding the 2"x22" bubbler was a matter of attaching it along side the cell.... other than that I had to work at finding a place on the fire wall for the relay and circuit breaker... 
... sense this is an older truck it was relatively easy to find the needed room but there isn't much of it!.... my car ...a 1992Toyota Cilica has no such wasted space ! the idea of putting a Hydroxy cell on it always comes down to where are you going to put it
and if your car is newer than my old things chances are you have no room at all under the hood !
... so I figured I'ed mention some of the places that Hydroxy cells CAN go if your determaned to put one on it.
...
on some cars Directly behind the head lights is a vacant spot about a foot deep and 8" to 12" or so high... enough for a "Short Cell"  this space is in front of the wheel fender well and usually isn't too bad to get at ...it just means not loosing the bolts!  these plastic fender wells make it easy to add a notch or two to run lines to the container... but remember you need to add water and inspect the cell ALLOT so this isn't the best of places to put one!
... Also wet cells don't always have to be vertical so You  can lay them down horizontally if you make allowances for the gas to escape and still keep the plates completely wet. and then run a 90degree Ell in PVC and a short pipe to the pop off cap and water add place... a small tube can be put along side the radiator in most cases...
 Randy put his cells horizontially along the frame in this manor...and it worked good for him
...
I'ed never put a Hydroxy cell in the passenger compartment the danger of explosion is too great.
in the trunk is just as good as in the passinger compartment because they are not seperated by anything except a seat.
in the pick-up bed is a great place for cells but the long hoses ad cables needed make this an expensive way to go.
...
Low and along side the engine is usually also a spot of opening but that is usually vacant because of the heat from the exhaust...
...
below the battery is usually some space too...  its not much but it may be all you need if your careful.
...
inside the front grill may be the best bet for allot of people although its a bear to get to and work on there is usually enough room for 2 or 3 cells up there... just be careful not to block off the air flow to the radiator or the car will over heat!
...
so far the best luck I have had is around the Radiator area... some times just bending the air shroud will be all you need to do to get a big container in there.
...
 But before you start cutting holes in stuff keep in mind you need to inspect the cell regularly and add water daily in some cases.this means accessibility ! you'll have to flush out the cell periodically as well....(unless you run Lemonade...<grin>)
...
Also keep in mind that the DRY cells are usually a smaller package that lends itself easier to putting under the hood.... but remember you need that all important recirculating tank to keep things cool and working good. a 7 plate 4"x4" dry cell will put out as good as a Randy cell does for slightly more amps when done properly... so they should be considered as well as the wet cell kind
...
Personally I have just about decided on going with 6 to 8 containers along the front of the back bed in my truck , running lemonade so it doesn't eat the bed away in a month or two as KOH would. and waterproofing everything real well so I can wash it off with the garden hose ! with a large recirculation tank in the center with a pop off lid and a tall bubbler beside it and a long 15ft hose up to the engine... each cell will have its own pop off cap on it and the ability to Look in and inspect things! see how dirty things are etc, etc.
 all this only comes AFTER the large 300amp alternator which will take me a long while to get!
....
so do any of you have any other ideas for places to put Hydroxy cells on the vehicle ?
 
...
Bob......
 

[Brad4321]

With my old ranger I ran 2 7"x7" craptastic dry cells between the grille and a/c condensor (right in the airflow). This kept them cool without a recirculating tank and I topped off water daily. Boubler mounted by the airbox. One fried alternator and a bit of melted wiring later, I had some decent output. I was going to mount a bigger cell in my bed toolbox and run an additional alternator, but I sold the truck before I made it that far (really wish I had that rusted out worthless POS back, one of the best trucks I ever had).

I haven't got it all figured out on my new grand am project yet. However, I am thinking of a boubler by the airbox, recirculating tank/reservoir and the cells mounted between the radiator fan and engine (I have a 6"-10" gap, opening up to slightly over a foot in one area). Bracketing it to the chassis is way more difficult than to the engine in this spot, but like you said it there isn't a whole lot of room there.

If it wasn't for the needed maintenance, there is plenty of room to mount it...it is just mounting it in a convenient location. I have considered trunks as there is a lot of waste space, especially behind all of the carpeting. You can buy (or just as likely make) an explosion proof housing if you desire. With a boubler and flame arrestor if you are really paranoid, the chance of explosion is pretty low if we are generating and not storing in tanks.

[Bob]

Speaking of explosions of under the hood type I  remember Cowboy had a bit of a problem with that one time.... it seams he didn't hook the power to the relay through the key switch... just a toggle switch on the dash.... Well you guessed it ...he forgot it and left it on for about 15 minutes as he made a quick stop at a store.... he came out and noticed the switch on, so turned it off  waited a few minutes and hit the starter... it went WOOOHM !  and belched smoke out from under the hood and  he jumped out and raised the hood to find every hose on his old truck blown off... he said it took a good half hour to put the hoses back on and then he fired it up and drove home ok....
....
 I have noticed in the past that a cell will keep generating Gas for a while after it is turned off...
this has been documented by others many times , so I got into the habit of turning off the cell about 10 minutes away from home.... as a precautionary measure.... and I usually turned it off when pulling into a parking lot in town. the last thing I need is a backfire and blow all the hoses off my truck out there... its got more hoses than a garden shop!
...
  Explosion venting devices are simple to make and test....a simple spring pushing down on a plate covering a sizable hole  is all that is needed.... making it air tight is also easy with a soft rubber gasket.
 there is also the Pop off caps that I use on my 2" diam ABS pipe these have a wing nut on them and seal up pressure tight to over 15 lbs...  and will still pop off if the flame gets to the cell
... I popped one off about 6 times when I was playing with a HHO torch LOL , must'a went 200ft in the air each time!
HAHAHAHAHA
...
Bob.....

[Brad4321]

Curious, do you know where he had the HHO feeding? This brings up an interesting point that has been covered a couple of times. If you are feeding it directly to the intake (after the throttle body), I can definitely see an explosion issue there...as well as the engine not wanting to decelerate. If it is injected before the throttle body, like in the air box perhaps, then you are better regulated. Sure, with the engine off it can seep past the closed throttle body and fill the intake/cylinders, but the air box is almost always open to the atmosphere on one side and the majority of the HHO should just vent out.

Explosions are always a bad deal, but nothing like testing your pop off valve! I was noticing about a 2 minute run on time past shutoff, but output seemed diminished and slowly faded out. Never really considered this as a problem, but I can see how it is if your output is high enough. I was thinking of a generator/line explosion, never thought much of that possibility. It is highly tempting to run the feed line to the intake, but this ends up being a bad idea. I am trying to think of another way to keep the generators under vacuum, but I don't have any ideas yet. I had nothing the first time around, but I am planning a low pressure 1 way check valve at the intake to the engine. Without it, worst case it would blow the boubler, but now I have about prevented that.

Just had an idea, you could have a vacuum based check valve (such as that at the brake booster) connected directly to the intake. This would automatically shut off flow at no-vacuum conditions, such as WOT or turning the engine off. If we are concerned about fuel economy, we shouldn't be running anywhere near WOT. A valve set to open at around 2" of vacuum would allow the system to be open nearly all of the time (a lot of cars won't even pull 0 vacuum at WOT due to throttle body/air filter restriction), and automatically shut flow off when the engine is shut down. A low PSI pressure release valve at the boubler would allow venting. In case of engine explosion, pressure in the intake would close the feed line. I may think about this, it is an option.

[Bob]

Yah that's a good idea Brad ! ...for the Intake manifold...but as you say that's not the best place to input your gas at.... At first I had my HHO gas right at the throttle body and Cowboy had his on the vacuum line at the base of the carburetor...  hence the problem...
  I changed mine to the snorkel between the air filter and the throttle body and its been there every sense.
 ...
 It should be obvious what a volume of Hydroxy gas the size to fill the snorkel and air-cleaner box would do if ignited.... it would be like a hand-grenade going off under the hood ! it may even blow the hood off.... I dunno but I don't want to test that one! LOL
 In cowboys case he guessed that the Hydroxy gas filled the intake manifold and crankcase.  why it didn't do more damage than that is unknown.... lets hear it for cast iron engines! LOL ... if I remember correctly it also blew the front and rear oil main seals... a real bummer ! but he only discovered this after he got home!
...
 I have a few steel boxes here with hinged lids , they would make putting a generator in the trunk acceptable  if gaskets were used to seal it air tight. and the whole thing vented outside with a LARGE Radiator hose.
...
 People do not realize how Explosive  Hydroxy gas is... and how powerful it is ...
take a balloon and fill it with Hydroxy gas and a LONG POLE with a match on it and light it at a distance..... it will No doubt Surprise the heck out of you !  its a very very big BOOM!
...
 I have a Laugh every time I think of Randy filling balloons with Hydroxy gas and adding a fuze to them.... and let them go..... it ignited over the neighbors house and they came running out to see what the heck was going on.....  its amazing he didn't get Arrested !  LOL !
 what a way to win friends and influence people !  HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
...
...
 I am now convinced that the only way to get large volumes of hydroxy gas is Multable cells....
 one large cell just is too unpractical ... 4 to 6 smaller cells will allow you to regulate the amps each one uses and get the use of amps up high enough for large production
  running one large cell at 100amps just doesn't work because you cannot get enough continuity through your electrolyte to get to 100 amps.... there is a limit to the continuity you can get even at maximum concentration... so  6 cells running 20 amps each will get you  120amps and 12LPM if each cell puts out 2LPM...
  so getting large amounts of Hydroxy gas is possible if we go with MANY smaller cells...
going with a cell Like that that Bob Boyce made is Possible but way too expensive....
 just make each cell where you can clean it easy.... have removable plugs at the bottom so you can flush them out real good... have them all mounted on a rack so you can take htem out of the vehicle and clean them up.... and quick disconnect lines would be handy as well.
...
even if you had to clean it before each trip to town it would be worth it! ... for no gasoline!
the performance will probably be less than stellar but who cares as long as you don't have to buy gasoline !!!!!!

...
SO NOW... I am looking for a simple cell to construct that will put out 2LPM at 20 amps !
.... time to start making all those cell containers I guess ! LOL !
...
Bob......

[Brad4321]

There are benefits to running directly to the intake...namely you bypass the airbox and its known leakage. Going to the intake, you know the HHO is getting to the engine and not leaking out. Pulling a vacuum on the boubler should help production. It isn't quite the same as a vacuum straight on the generator, but I think it would still up production a bit. When I get my cells hooked up in this new car, I may try straight to the intake using this method and see what happens. The only real concern is slow deceleration of the engine, but how bad that is depends on your production.

On some other sites I have heard of excellent efficiency with frequency modulation and etc. There cells are really complicated, IMO, and have some insane controllers. However, if they are truly getting the production they say, we are doing this all wrong. I don't think I am quite ready to build their setup yet...not too good at soldering and wiring electronics.

[Bob]

If you put Vacuum on the bubblier you will in effect be putting vacuum on the HHO generator...sense they are both sealed to keep in the gas...the vacuum will just go down the hose from the bubblier to the generator.... and suck out any electrolyte that it can. <GRIN>
...
sense I run electrolyte in both the bubblier and generator and don't try to keep them separated, it wouldn't be a problem for me , and sense the gas Outlet of the generator is above the electrolyte level it won't suck out any electrolyte.... but if it foams up it definitely will !...that green slime that is so common in new generators can be a problem at first until they get broke in and stop foaming
...but that should be all taken care of before you put it into use anyway ! HAHAHAHAHA
...
 In all Honestly I am not sure about Vacuum on the generator being helpful to HHO production.
It may help in pulling out more Oxygen from the water but HHO I dunno ! if you do put vacuum on the cell it may well increase the production coming out of the generator by about 1/4 LPM HOWEVER the quality of that gas may not be up to par.  It has been noted in the past a slight increase in production by applying vacuum to a cell but it has never been determined that the small increase was indeed gas and not just pulling air out of the water...as a vacuum will do !
...
 For a long while now we have known that Hydroxy gas production is in direct proportion to the amps applied  and a small influence is added by the plate area... up to a point... increasing plate area past the amount of amps has little to no effect at all. 
 This is all well and good for modest amounts of HHO but when we try to achieve large amounts of HHO we find that the inability to add any more amps a major stopping point.
...
 Although in the future we may well simply plug the HHO line into the injectors and go Our marry way
 I am almost certain it will take re-writing the Computer eproms to allow that!
because of the richer nature of gasoline...
at one time I could program anything you wanted in Borland C++... but that was many years ago and before Object oriented C programming came out... now I let my Kid do it and I watch!
HAHAHAHA.... the idea of programming an e-prom gives me a headache!...  there is far too much to learn to do it correctly! ... and most likely in machine language too!
...
  On My truck I plan to use a electric on off valve to turn on and off the gasoline going to the injectors... if I can ever get to the point of making enough production to try it without gasoline at all....
  this will mean a complete throttle system for the HHO or as You've said before just feed it directly to just before the throttlebody and control the throttle by normal means... but this means at cruse  you may not be using all the Hydroxy gas and it will be backing up and out the air cleaner causing a explosion hazard... the possable answer to this is relays that switch on and off certain cells in the cell bank to limit production.... or have a "SMALL" pressure canister that maintains a constant 14 PSI... and throttle the gas going into the throttle body at the same time you open the throttle... this was my first Hope but rigging a throttle out of a ball valve is problematic at best
they are stiff suckers and apt not to turn at all!
...
 so I haven't came up with a way to input the gas so as not to run the risk of making too much gas and have it backing up out the intake/air-cleaner.   one back fire at that point would split allot of valuable plastic parts under the hood! 
...
I am adamant on leaving the engine able to pass the smog test... by removing the HHO first of course!
... but it has to be able to run on gasoline because California would never let me drive it no matter if there is no pollution or not ! ... silly people!
...
...
 My dream of running on 100% Hydroxy gas is only a matter of enough production really
even if it takes 50LPM to do it  it can still be done in my truck... and no gasoline would ever be needed...  Bob Boyces Monster cell was supposed to make 50LPM or 75LPM I don't remember which
so it is do-able if you have the money... but at last check the plates alone would set me back almost $500.00 ... Not to mention the High wattage inverter he used... that is a bit steep for me!
...a passel of wall switch plate covers is more my budget.... LOL
...
Bob.....

 

[Brad4321]

Water vapor in the gas line isn't really a problem at all. If I could get enough vapor, I wouldn't need water injection! It does help with output, and if it is 1/4lpm, that can add up pretty quick if it is per cell.

The more I think about it, the more I like the idea of plumbing it into the intake with the vacuum based check valve. The only real issue I see is slow deceleration to an idle. If that becomes a problem, I may rig up a way to shut off 3 of the 4 cells off at idle...or more specifically, vent their output to the atmosphere. If I mechanically close off the flow from 3 cells but don't shut down the current, the cells will keep producing. I have an idea of how to store this production at idle and dump it into the intake during acceleration. Accelerating from a dead stop is real hard on mpg.

You won't need to rewrite the eproms. That is really overcomplicating things. I don't know about your toyota, but on my ford I plug a usb cable into my laptop and I can literally adjust any parameter in the computer. It may not be quite that easy with the toyota, but I bet there is a solution other than rewriting machine code (which I can almost guarantee it is). I was originally in programming too until I switched careers....couldn't stand the cubical life.

The simplest thing I can thing of is design it like a diesel based natural gas engine...throttle your air intake with the throttle body and throttle the fuel with a smaller "throttle body". This is a simplistic form of the natural gas engine, but i bet it would be good enough for us. Not including an IAC, the throttle body doesn't completely seal and has a small, measured air leakage. To get your fueling at idle set right, you could slowly enlarge the hole in the butterfly and then just sync up the openings of both throttle bodies. Adjusting your fuel mixture would be about as simple as loosening or tightening up the cable to the fuel TB. Where to mount an additional throttle body is a question, although I have an idea. Take a look at this TB.

http://tunertools.com/prodimages/BBK/3502_large.jpg

That is basically the throttle body off of an old 302 ford truck. They are dual inlet like that stock. The throttle body is pretty good size and mounting that up to any other engine would just take an adapter plate. Hook one up to your air intake and the other to your HHO production. They both work off of the same cable. The butterfly for the HHO could be drilled out and different sized orifices screwed in to set idle speed (similar to carb jets, we use them at work). Fuel mixture could be adjusted by rotating the butterfly for the HHO on the shaft.

Your dream of running on pure HHO that you generate isn't based on production, but the assumption that you can get approx 80% more power from burning HHO as creating it...and that is a very strong assumption. If you are able to run pure, I would still just block off all incoming air and let the throttle body do the work. Idle speed could be adjusted the same way I said above for fuel mixture. Running HHO, however, isn't just the fuel..it is the fuel and oxygen combined. It is already in perfect stoich and doesn't need to be precisely regulated like gasoline injection does. The throttle body just regulates this stoich entrance into the engine, and thus the power/speed of the engine. Putting your injectors on a switch and running HHO right into the throttle body would be all you need to do....run out of HHO, turn the injectors back on and take the tube off the generators and hook the air box back up, something that could be done on the side of the road in a couple of minutes. I really don't see any benefit to pumping it into the leaky airbox if running pure. Running a pipe from the boubler to throttle body, it could be sealed up to several PSI. No worry of leakage.

As far coming to a stop and low idling, one idea could be to rig the generators to pump into a large propane tank, say 20 gallons or more, and the throttle body draws off of that. When stopped, the generators keep pumping HHO into the tank and upon acceleration, there as an abundance of HHO there to help accelerate. Acceleration will take the most fuel and really tax production, having a bit on reserve can't hurt. You could pump this tank up to a decent pressure before venting, say 50psi, but there are a lot of variables there.

As far as running on pure HHO or even a very high percentage, no one has a lot of experience with that to really take educated guesses right now. The engines that have been ran on pure HHO haven't be ran long and there isn't too many people running around running on a whole lot of LPM. I think that if it is possible, it will be fairly easy. The majority of problems comes with getting the right fuel mixture all of the time in every possible circumstance. We already have the proper fuel mixture, the only thing we have to worry about is delivery into the engine...which is a pretty small problem once we have the LPM to actually do so. In all of my tuning, I haven't ever spend much time on setting timing, a solid 90% is tuning the fuel mixture. That part is done for us.

By the end of summer I hope to have an educated answer. I am pretty pumped up about this (spring fever already). I am building 4 more cells as soon as my parts get here. I have a small briggs that I will play with. Step one will be getting it to run off of the HHO produced by a few battery packs and charger. Once I see that it can run and with what LPM, I will start mounting alternators to it. A single 200 amp alternator will max this engine out in power (I believe it is a 3hp). Will, say, 15lpm power this engine under full load? Seems like it should, and I have seen a lot thrown around the net on it, but it is hard to know what to believe. Whatever works with the briggs will work on a larger scale automotive. If it works for the briggs, it should work for anything. If it doesn't, it won't. That is my theory. It is hard-impossible to mechanically change timing on the small engines, but I have a few tricks to try. Worst case scenario is installing a trigger wheel and one of my MSD boxes, but I think I can get away without doing that...

[Bob]

Brad:
 I quote ya again... because your not getting it....
"Your dream of running on pure HHO that you generate isn't based on production, but the assumption that you can get approx 80% more power from burning HHO as creating it...and that is a very strong assumption."

NO NO NO    I do not care one bit about How much power it takes to MAKE the HHO gas ! get this because its important... your still hung up on the perpetual motion thing and I could care less about that.... even if it takes 200% more power to make the HHO GAS than I can get out of running my engine on it .... WHO CARES ?  as long as I can run my engine on it ! .... what is important is that I can make enough HHO gas to run the engine..... that's all... I don't care if it takes 50 hp to pull all the alternators to make the HHO.....
.... going about it THIS way is the only sane way of going  for it..... I could care less if the efficiency of the unit is real LOW !...as long as I have enough gas to run the engine!
 that is WHY i have said before its just a matter of HHO GAS VOLUME.... not how many amps it takes or HP to turn the alternators or what have you....
 I am Blatantly Assuming that my engine can turn enough alternators to make that many amps to make the HHO gas in the generators.... and still be able to move itself too.
   IF it takes upwards to 200 to 300LPM to run the engine  then  My assumption is probably WRONG !
and I admit it completely.... but that is about the only way that it won't work <GRIN>
if it takes 300LPM to run my engine under load then the engine probably cannot turn enough alternators or generate enough power to MAKE the HHO no matter how hard I try.....
 this WOULD go along with the Laws of Physics as well.... which says you can't get More out than you put in.....(I'm going around the bush from the other direction... see ?)
   HOWEVER...  what I have seen and what others have reported is that it doesn't take anywhere Near that much HHO to run an engine....  my truck engine "should" run under the worst of work conditions at 25 to 30LPM.... and never miss a beat.... but that I think is being overly generous with the LPM...
I Honestly think I can Run the engine under most circumstances for far less like 15 to 20LPM
...now weather that is enough to take off from a stop sign without it falling on its face because of lack of fuel is completely unknown ! but I'm willing to find out!
....
  I'm betting that I can run my truck on less than 30LPM ( I'd think a 389 V8 should run fairly well on 30LPM !  so my little truck engine a 1.5 Liter should take many times less !)
....
...
I can't remember his name but one of the guys that pioneered the HHO stuff ran his dune-buggy on 20 LPM  if I remember correctly. he ran it for a long while too I might add before taking it apart.... about a year.  and Hydrogen hardening did not cause the engine to shatter like glass ! LOL so he proved that point as well.
...
 Ok enough of that ... I'll quit preaching!
...
  Your Little B&S probably wouldn't pull a 70amp car alternator.... yet alone a 300amp heavy duty one
... there is just not enough HP there.... it takes from 5hp to 10hp to turn an alternator under load
without a load ...sure it will turn it fine , but as soon as you connect it to a battery to charge it will Kill the engine.... I know I tried it with a 3.5 B&S I have here and I had it on a 75amp alternator out of a old Ford Galaxy! I had a 2"pulley on the engine and the regular alternator pulley on the alternator.... perhaps if I had a gear reduction it might have worked .... but alas I didn't
....
 Here is something you can try....
  get a Hydroxy cell going.... and blow up a LARGE balloon.... doesn't matter how long it takes but try to get a good guess at the Cubic foot the balloon contains....
take the carberator off the B&S and make up a 1/2" water pipe intake manifold and put a 1/2" ball valve on it....
 on a SMALL balloon not the full one put the balloon on the end of the ball valve and see if you can start the motor.... it will probably back fire and blow the balloon up so be very careful !
but if you can get it to run by just cracking the valve on the ball valve it will prove to you it will run on HHO.... chances are it will blow the balloon until you change the timing  a long way!
 ...
 Once you have the engine running on HHO  then you can put the bigger balloon on it and time it....
... it Obviously would be safer to put the gas to the ball valve through a bubbler  and you probably have one handy anyway so do it right and save your hearing and eyebrows!
...

...
 I agree if I just block off all outside air I can just plumb the HHO right to the throttle body of my truck and be done with it ! ... 
 I did a experiment about 3 years ago that told me a few things are possable... I took my "Smack booster" and put a water pump pressure switch on the side of the tank... and set it for as LOW as I could.... put a pressure guage on the container and plugged off the line and turned it on ...it raised to about 10psi before it shut off automatically because I had the contacts of the pressure switch power the cell.... I increased that to 14PSI and then vented it, a few times to make sure it came on and went off as it was supposed to ...it did and then I hooked up the bubbler and a small torch.... blew the bubbler top  first try... but I cept at it till I got it to hold a flame , I had to reduce the hole size of the torch before it would work... at 2LPM the flame was only about 1" long but the generator kept up with the flame.
  this IDEA but on a larger scale for my truck  is what I had in mind.... a 1 gallon holding tank is about as big as I'd want to go.... but a 5 gal propane tank would probably be much better!
 but only if I added a 3" to 4" Explosive pressure relief valve on it!!!!!!
...now with all the cells going at full blast all the time to fill the pressure tank  it would be a large amp draw no doubt... but when the pressure switch trips and shuts them all down to maintain the pressure it would be running off the pressure tank... for a few seconds only perhaps then back on again....
 so the cell Rack, pressure tank, pressure regulator... and Plumb the gas directly to the "blocked off from outside air" throttle body....  I think that would work !
...
I was planning on leaning out the HHO gas a bit however so I better plan on a few more LPM just to be safe.... so I'll shoot for 25LPM and see what that gets me !
...
...
I do know that a fella on the YOU-TUBE videos tried to run a 5HP B&S on 4LPM and it wasn't enough.... close but it just wasn't enough to idle it.... so double that and you'ed probably be able to get above an idle with a 5hp..... he used a Dry cell BTW.
...hes the guy that did the balloon trick and it ran great till the balloon was deflated!
...
Bob......



 

[Manta]

You think you have problems finding space !

You want to try changing the timing belt on this.

But at 70 mpg I forgive it.

Dave
(Manta)

p.s.  It's my 1.5 Litre Citroen Saxo.

[Brad4321]

" I am Blatantly Assuming that my engine can turn enough alternators to make that many amps to make the HHO gas in the generators.... and still be able to move itself too."

That is the assumption. I know what you are saying, and that is what won't work. You are looking at this from a LPM/amp perspective, I understand that. The conservation of energy says it can't happen, nothing to do with LPM, but instead from the process we are using to extract the HHO. I have high hopes that it will and that is why I want to try it with this briggs, to see if it will once and for all. A 3HP briggs will turn my alternator, an alternator doesn't take much power to turn over by itself; resistance is based on output. It will not turn it at a full 200 amps (I have a spare 200 amp 1 wire available, hence my main reason for using a 200), but I will have that available and enough LPM available for it to do so. However many amps it pulls isn't important, what is important is whether or not I can make enough gas to power the engine from the alternator it is turning. If the 3HP briggs can't do it, you won't be able on your car either, regardless of what alternator is used. The briggs is small enough we can rig it up with a minimal cost to try. We could do the same test on my old big block truck, but I don't have the money to buy enough alternators to make that work...this I do. I am a good 90% sure I can rig this briggs up as a good solid experiment and that is what I want to do.

There are a few videos and such on youtube and I have watched them, and read things around the net, but no one has done quite what I am trying to do to the same level. There isn't any question you can run an engine on pure HHO, the question is can I keep this briggs running solely on the HHO it generates, and it continues to run until I shut it down...if you follow what I am saying. I don't want to really argue this point anymore, I want to try it. I believe that I am not the first person to try, but everyone has failed and that is why you don't hear about it. I have a test setup that I believe will be pretty decent. As I get closer, I will start a thread, gather input, and record all of my findings here.

My true and honest thought about this is finding out one piece of information...how much HHO can we truly run. I am going to guess a 90%HHO to 10% gas mixture. This is going to depend highly on the efficiency of the engine, but I can't see anymore than 95%HHO on a solid performer. In any case, I have some theories on accurately measuring the gasoline going into the engine allowing me to calculate the BSFC of the engine. Every single engine produced has a tested BSFC, and in the case of over the road engines, government tested/approved BSFC. By calculating the BSFC of my HHO briggs, I can use this information to may pretty well calculated assumptions on what we can do with automotive engines.

That pic looks quite similar to my car. I am placing my generators and reservior under the front bumper steel impact guard (not hanging under the car, but basically between the bumper and radiator). The boubler will be by the airbox. It looks like you could pull the same thing off.

[Bob]

Geez Manta ! Looks like my Cilica under the hood ! LOL
  but remember the old adage "where there's a will there is a way!"
...
 Point taken Brad and your probably Right but we shall see....I believe the laws of Physics were made to be BROKEN! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!
the Difference is the engine...Brad the 3.5hp Briggs is one of the WORST designs I have ever came across
they are really bad on gas efficiency to power output....
  My little 3.5hp briggs has UN Movable timing ...making it a bad candidate for 100% hydroxy gas
... I hooked up a single hydroxy cell to it and pulled it through many times only to get a backfire  and try to run backwards....  the only way I can see if making it work is to move the induction coil...
 but the points Under the fly wheel will have to be really wide in order to reach BTDC.
 I believe my briggs fires at around 10deg ATDC  I adjusted the points up to get it to fire as close to TDC as possible but the results were the same.... it wasn't far enough.
... I am not saying you can't do it.... just saying you have your work cut out for you !
the timing will make it work or not!
.... My 8.5hp B&S is a much better candidate as the points are set in there differently... but its on my saw mill and I can't use it! HAHAHAHAHAHAHA
...
 My truck can have the timing just about anywhere... but it needs a super large volume of HHO
but in displacement wise consideration it is about 150% better at fuel efficiency too !
...maybe more ! LOL
...
 so its not the carbonation on the briggs its the timing for HHO.
...pop off the flywheel on the briggs and look at the points if it has some .... if there isn't points under the fly wheel then its the more modern type that will have to have the coil moved to change the timing.
...
Bob....

 

[Manta]

This problem with the B & S.

On an experimental engine I would forget the original ignition system and use an old car 4 cylinder distributor mounter on an outrigger plate.  You would need to gear it down by eight to one (or gear it up ?) to get the points to open at every second revolution of the crank (use toothed belt) And you can arrange it so you can rotate the distributor as the motor is running to get the right timing point.  Remember the old magneto advance/retard levers on the bikes ?

Dave
(Manta)