new source

[randy]

Messing around the other day, found this site. http://www.altfabrication.com/products/guide.aspx?productgroup=HW-WSH-04   they've got very large stainless fender washers cheap!!! this kind of renewed my interest in building electrolyzers, with the extra working area I should be able to use jam nuts instead of shim stock for connection, though I might need to mill them down to get the clearance I want.
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to all.

[Bob]

Thanks for the info Randy ! KOOL !
 I used Jam nuts on my Wall-switch-Plate cell... and the spacing came out at about 3/16" between plates
which is quite Wide ! I used the 2 pocket Orange School folders as the insulator and just a thin slice of Blue vinyl gas-line as the O-Ring to insulate the bolt from the plate on one side.
 this worked extremely well...each plate is secured by a nut on each post... the only thing bad about this method is the plate spacing ! ....
 HOWEVER there might be a source of really thin nuts from those on toggle switches.... I would think you could buy a package of them... but getting them to fit a 1/4"x20 bolt/rod might be imposable! but you never know till you look for them !
... they are not stainless steel but I think you can get them in stainless steel !
... even if you had to increase the Rod size and thread size of the main bolts that hold the plates together it may well be the best option !
 I THINK the thread size on some toggle switches is 3/8"x 28 yet some others are much finer thread than that... perhaps 3/8"x 30 I don't know. they could also be as big as 1/2"x 28 but they can't be any thicker than 1/16" thick and that would be really good at getting the plate GAP down !
...
Finding a stainless steel rod or bolt that is 3/8"x 28 will be tough... but it is possible...
finding the finer threaded size will be impossible except through special order.
...
 Threading your own Rod if it came down to it is a possibility but I don't recommend it... threading stainless steel has broken many of my Dies!
...
I have yet to test this Cell....DARN IT!  but I will one of these days!
I am fairly certain that much of the GAP can be compensated for by the Electrolyte mix.... sure its never going to be as good as a 2/1000 gap but it should be comparable !
 so you may need a really strong KOH mix... lemonade may not do the job
...

Keep after it Randy !
...
Bob....

[randy]

Nope! gonna stay with 1/4X20 thread, just the larger hole on the washer will be big enough so that the jam nut doesn't touch, from my measurements a jamnut 3/16" high will give the proper plate spacing with the original 2" washers, I can easily mill them down to that height, but I'm going to wait until I have those large washers in my hands, they're thickness might be different than the 2" washers, I thought of doing this before, but the 7/16" nut needs about a 1/2" hole to clear the nut with enough space so it doesn't short out, on the 2" washers with the 1/2" hole in the middle and another beside it just seemed weak to me. The insulators could be anywhere between the plates to keep spacing, probably use your idea of cutting vinyl tube to surround the nuts and keep the plates from shifting. not sure if you understand what I'm getting at but there it is. hahahhahaha I'll make a diagram when I get some time. should be reliable and easy to maintain, plus I'll be able to stick with my favorite lemonaid.
http://i359.photobucket.com/albums/oo36/rswmarks/Largewashercell.png
For spacing insulators I think 4 folder hole punch chads per gap glued in place should work.

[Bob]

Ok ...twas just a Suggestion !
 I don't know if I told ya about the ODD one I tried one time with the 2" washers... but I'll try to explain it now....
 I took 22 washers and put a hole through the center of the side, of each and mounted them on a threaded rod... made another just like it and tried to inter weave the two together enough to work...
the gap was small enough to use the insulation from electrical wire I had laying around, and even though I had a piece of insulation (like a small straw) I could Not get that combination to work.
it shorted out all the time.... I'd get it to pass continuity and then check it again and it'ed be shorted out...
...
 I did this with normal nuts not the half nuts and the spacing looked fairly good about 1/16" or so
... and although I tried many different ways of interleaving the  off-set washers on their post it never seamed to work right...
 i figured if I ever got it to work good without shorting out I'd put the pos on one post/threaded-rod and the neg. on the other...making it a parallel hookup
 I was certain I could just jam in strips of insulators to get them to stop shorting out but it seamed the more plastic I crammed in there the worse it got !
perhaps a sheet of Plexiglas cut with a thin Kerf saw so the washers fit into the slot perfectly,and make a comb with real short teeth on it to just keep the washers from touching
or maybe even a cheapie Comb on each side cut to size, would do the job
.... but like I said.... I couldn't git it to work...
...
I even went so far as to make a stack of washers with a hole on one side and a large notch on the other to use as the interleaving plates idea... when interleaved the washers stacked up vertically just fine.... but the same problem of shorting out pleged that one too and that cost me 22 washers for that EXPERIMENT.... I crammed in more wedges of plastic than you can shake a stick at yet I could never get it to be consistent.... I could get it to read no continuity but the next day it would be shorted out again.... and that went on for about a good month till I finally just gave up on the idea!
...
the "Stacks" were (if I remember correctly)  nut,small washer, Plate washer, Nut,small washer, plate washer, nut.... and so on, I had to add the small washer to widen the gap to have any hope of ever getting them to not short out.... obviously that didn't help at all!
 ...When each half was done it looked impressive indeed... and SHOULD'a Worked good! ...but I guess it wasn't in the stars ! LOL !
....
Bob...

[randy]

Yep I do remember that one, ya posted pics too. not sure why it wouldn't have worked, probably getting a wedge effect from the zip tie pieces??? this thing should be a solid and sturdy build, looks like a lotta nuts though, still I really think it's worth a try. I'm gonna jump right in and get the 4" washers, just hope their flat. hahahaha
I couldn't even count the number of times I tried to find more of those 2 1/2" od washers I have, and then to find these, I also did manage to find the 2 1/2" also, their used on sailboards frequently, but I think bigger is better for what were trying to do, not sure but it could also reduce heat too.

Hey; you could easily modify that switchplate to the configuration I added in the photobucket pic, it would cut your spacing in half, then get some small insulators the thickness you need and just glue some dots of it on the plates, should work well that way.

[randy]

Well, got them 4" OD washers ordered, had to do it over the phone?? I only ordered 12, 1 extra incase I mess up, I really think this thing is going to out produce my original washer cell, I plan on using two 6" pvc caps and a really short piece of pipe for the container, I'm going to assemble it as shown in diagram on my second post on this thread, no messing around with shimstock, should be easier on my fingers. if this thing works like I think it should I'll probably buy a bulk lot of these washers and sell them at cost on here if Bob doesn't mind. I really want to stick with the unsweetened lemon aid kool-aid for electrolyte, it seemed to work indefinately, and needed no maintenance other then adding water. with two of my washer cells wired parallel I could bury my 40 amp meter cold with k-aid, the added surface area of these washers should allow me to do this with one cell. now just to figure out how to keep it cool.

Oh, and wishing everyone a happy new year.

[Bob]

4" Stainless Steel washers ! WOW that should be a big increase in plate area !
Heck No I don't mind you selling the washers here Randy ...No problem at all !
anything Hydroxy Generator related,or the needed add-ons anyone can post a listing for sale ! in fact, I'll make a new Category .... FOR SALE! <GRIN>
...
 I have my doubts on the results you'll get using those washers and a Much wider gap However....
if I could test my cell it might give you a better idea of the output you'd get because the spacing will be almost identical !
  What I think will happen is because of the wider gap the Lemon-aid will be too weak to use... I think its the close spacing of the "Randy cells" that make the Lemon-aid so usable!.... wider gap "SHOULD" in my mind... make Less amperage available when using Lemon-aid.... but we shall see !
...
 when you do get the cell Built  PLEASE post another Drawing of it like you did for the "Randy Cell" MK1 and MK2..... hopefully MK3 will be the best of the bunch !  HAHAHAH!
...
  I am wondering how thick each of those washers are and the center hole diameter size...
 just curious I guess <GRIN>
...
 
 A word of Caution... before you go buy the PVC pipe for that cell take a washer WITH YOU to the store and make sure the washer fits in the pipe ok.... I was planning on that with one of my cells and although it fit in the cap it would not fit in the pipe!... so I had to start looking for larger PVC pipe but can't find any but 4" around here ! 6" PVC is hard to find some times !
...
and I would definately use stainless steel threaded Rod for the main bolts instead of just long bolts
because you can cut the rod to size and feed the cell from both ends much easier
...
there is a Rubber  FLEX Coupling for sewer pipe that will allow you to clamp to the pvc pipe and the end cap so you can SLIDE the cell straight in and then clamp it and make it water tight! yet have the bolt ends stick through both ends.... otherwise a screw in connection will give you fits and a normal cap will have to be glued on and you can never get it apart again !
... just a thought !
...
have a good one Randy and Have a Happy New year !

....
Bob.....



 

[randy]

Ok I'll post it this way instead of photobucket like in the previous thread, should be able to get .010" spacing this way. the only things missing from the picture are the bolts and small insulators, the insulators will be glued in place to prevent shorting, when I get the washers I'll take pictures as I assemble the cell.

[randy]

washers are 1/2X4" so 1/2" hole, .062" thick, about the same as the 2" washers, the nuts will be milled down to the needed height for .010" spacing, the height of the nuts may vary as the thickness of the washers may vary. I'll figure out the termination of the stack when I have them in my hands as one of the bolts needs insulated from the washer on both ends of the stack, not sure if I understand what I just wrote but it's in my head. hahahahaha
That site I linked to should be working now, I guess their server maxed out over the holidays???

[Bob]

Oh HOOO ! You Clever person you ! your using only one nut to make contact and the other is in the center... allowing half the height of the nuts !  very clever Randy ! GOOD SHOW !
...
if you want you can post all the new stuff under the "Randy cell" or make a new thread in designing a cell section....er what ever its called ! LOL
posting the pics here is far easier on you than trying to keep it going at 2 places (I think anyway)
....
great method of using the nuts to make the contact... glad you thought of it !
...I may try that method on my wall-switch-plate cell and see if I can get the plate gap down some !
because right now I have 2 nuts per plate holding each plate down... if I use your method I could get the plate gap to be half of what it is now ! .... that's very clever I Must say !
...
and thanks for the INFO !  KOOOL !
...
Bob......


 

[randy]

Yeah, when I get the stuff and take assembly pics I'll move it all over to the other area. On your switchplate build once you figure what you're clearance is going to be, make some small plastic spacers the right thickness and glue them to the inside corners on one side only, should keep spacing even and prevent it from ever shorting out. I really think this configuration will work well with many wet cell plate designs, and be a solid unit when built. I'm going for the .010 spacing because I desperately want user friendly Koolaid electrolyte.

[Bob]

that's Kool Randy !
...
My "Jam Nuts" (what they call them at the hardware store) are about 1/8" thick I'll try to re make my cell soon, but I have a few other projects in the works at the moment and getting water into the Kitchen once again is a priority !
...
BUT ! sense the "Jam nuts" I'm using are Stainless steel,  and using Your stacking method , I should be able to get 1/16" plate separation.... and that is far FAR better than I had ever hoped for... it may well make this cell usable!
...Perhaps even reaching close to the 10:1 ratio of out-put  you know... 10 amps to 1 liter per minute
... that would mean for 40amps I should get 4LPM or just a tad less...50 amps should net me at least 4.5LPM and that's on the low side ! 5LPM if I get a 10:1  !
...
I did finally get to look at that site you posted for the washers...and although each washer is more expensive than the switch plate covers I caught on sale.... their SHAPE is far better,their thicker,and will fit into a PVC container.... a very necessary part of the generator!
Not only that BUT! the plate area has to be Much More !
... so I'd say the 4" washers are the way to go !
...
Bob...



 

[randy]

Yeah, that sounds about right, after removing the insulators, find some tubing that the nuts fit into and drill out the larger hole so that the tubing fits nicely, should be the easiest switchplate build out there.
If you use long enough bolts you could fit it into pvc also, just use a couple nuts as standoffs.

[Bob]

Hay Randy....
 Do you have a method for cutting the tubing to length that is Consistent ?
 I found when making my "O"Rings out of gas line that Eye-ball isn't very accurate at all! LOL
and it will be less accurate with a bigger tubing size.
although I'll probably "Wing-it" with the picket knife, I really wish I had a more accurate way of slicing up 100 at a time.   I have about 5 different sizes of vinyl tubing in the shed so it shouldn't be a problem finding one that snugly fits the nut yet doesn't stretch it either.
....
I think I'll tear down the cell and get the plates ready to drill the larger hole into.
...
I would think making the piece of tubing long enough to cover the nut below and up to the plate above would be a good idea... as a slight swelling of the tubing because of compression will help hold that side of the plate....long as you don't over do it !
...gott'a get that cell tore down !  catcha later !
Bob....

[randy]

Yeah, the best way I've found is to insert wood dowell that just fits, then carefully roll and cut with a razor blade, mark your cut with ink or tape.