some questions

[Bart_Maztra]

Some stupid questions:

Why does dry cells have stacks of 5 cells instead of 6?

On a dry cell, doubling the amount of stacks, or doubling the size of the plates area, is that the same?

What are the purposes of the container from a dry cell? Can't it run without it?

What is the difference in efficiency between 20 amps through a low koh concentrate, or do 28% koh and dail 20 amps by a pwm?

Why does the amps increase when heating up?

When heating up, does the efficiency rise?

[Bob]

Bart...
 I have not messed too much with DRY CELLS myself but from what I understand 6 plates is better than 5 plates,  it is possible that some people have Misinterpreted results of the output in their tests however,to give them MORE output on fewer plates when using Lower amps... I have seen this many times.
...
 Hydroxy cells work best at a certain AMP per plate area ratio... if you have a big amount of plate area and only 20 amps to feed it, then taking off a few plates will usually raise the output.
however the oppisit is also true say if your pushing 80 amps and have a small cell then adding plates will increase the output as well.
... the optimum amount of API or Amps per square inch has been discussed at length here , and I can't remember what it was right now to be positive.
...
a series cell needs 1.5 volts per cell Minimum to work efficiently but it also needs a Minimum amount of Amperage to do that work you HAVE to have the 2 things , Amps and Volts in the right amount to be truly efficient...
... However if the 2 things Aren't available the cell will work anyway just not as efficiently as it could be.... and its very hard to tell the difference!
the best output I have seen is 10 amp per 1 liter per min output.... or 20amps @2LPM this was the results from the "Randy Cell" that had 11- 2"s.s.washers for plate area...those figures will give you the optimum API for the cell....   increasing plate area means increasing amps however to maintain that Ratio...  Most Dry cells are Very Underpowered and suffer from a lack of AMPS...this is why I suspect the 5 plate usage instead of 6... even though 6 plates is the calculated best for voltage.
...
 Doubling the stacks or doubling the size of the plates... it is the same "IF the voltage is maintained"... but ONLY "IF".... if you double the stacks you "half" the voltage usually...(in a series cell) and therefore its not the same at all...
 it depends on how you look at it, and depends on the wiring of the cell
if its a series cell you will lower the voltage per cell by adding more plates... if its a Parallel plate hookup, you just add Plate Area  and there is no change to the voltage.
...
the purpose of a container in a DRY cell is usually to contain the electrolyte, however some Dry cells are designed to hold their electrolyte within the cell itself and need no container at all... however there is a need to keep the PLATES of the cell from shorting out on a metal fender wall so mounting it on a insulator is needed...  but if you can keep the cell from shorting out there is no need for a container on a dry cell.
...
 20 amps and LOW concentration of KOH VS 20amps and High concentration is "HEAT"  there is less heat with a higher concentration of KOH because there is LESS RESISTANCE in the electrolyte
this can be achieved in a few ways not just a PWM a  "Current Limiting circuit", like that that Manta has outlined previously, or Tink...is a good method but they take time to heat up and get going... where a PWM can get you going from a cold start IF you keep an eye on it and back it down when it warms up.
... a PWM will result in a cooler running cell if used properly,(because of the Higher Concentration of the KOH) however they burn out very easy
all it takes is turning the knob the wrong way once... and its toast!
...
the Amperage Increase when temperature changes is due to the speed of the molecules in the medium
its easier for an electron to be dislodged and move when its warm than when its cold... that is why the RESISTANCE of the material is HIGHER when its COLD than when it is HOT.
...
Does the efficiency Rise? when warmer rather than colder ?
thats a good question and I believe the answer is YES simply because the RESISTANCE is Lower
but efficiency of what? making HHO ? or electricity flowing through the plates?
in making HHO the more electron flow the more HHO is made... in electricity flowing through the plates the same is true... so the answer is YES !
....

Hope that Helps Bart... remember I am NO EXPERT with this stuff so back up what I said by study!
LOL !
Bob.....

[Bart_Maztra]

Hope that Helps Bart... remember I am NO EXPERT with this stuff so back up what I said by study!
LOL !

Thanks Bob, i am learning every day.

Another question,

Once a cell is conditioned with KOH, can it run lateron on NAOH? Or the other way around?
I am asking because i prefer koh, but koh is a bit difficult to get hold on, and NAOH is very easy to get hold on.  I have a little bit of koh. So when i am running out of koh, can i rinse the cell, and put naoh in?  And if i get a new supply of koh, rinse the cell and put koh in?

Or once koh in the cell, allways koh?


And just because of curiousity, What happens when the polarity of the electrical supply changes?
Conditioned cell running +NNNN-NNNN+, and change the same cell to -NNNN+NNNN-.  Once conditioned, is the surface of the + plate different to the - plate?

[Bob]

Bart...
 Yes you can switch electrolytes... but I think it best if you soak the cell for 10min in Muratic Acid
and start from a Super Clean start for either Electrolyte...
...you can find Muratic Acid in the swimming pool section of the hardware stores where they hide their chemicals. a one gal. jug should last you years.... its mean stuff though, so be careful!
...Personally I would NEVER put NAOH in a CELL....but  you do what you gott'a do ! <GRIN>
...
you might give "AAAA Chemicals" a try out of Texas... that's where I got my KOH... they do sell small quantities, un-like some places that want you to by 50 to 150 lbs !...and no special forms to fill out ... LOL
...
 that is an interesting question about the polarity switching...
from what I Understand running a cell all the time at a given polarity will definitely etch the cell plates in a certain way.... it may be easier for the cell to Produce HHO if a person swaps polarity every once in a while.... but as of yet I have seen no proof of this.
...in other words  I dunno about that one! HAHAHAHAAH
...
...
...
  Keep in mind a few things about the Electrolyte... KOH or "Potassium Hydroxide" and NAOH or Sodium Hydroxide... and they are completely different things. 
 SALT or Sodium is an enemy of Hydroxy cells  because it makes green SLIME and coats the plates and will eventually stop the cell from production completely.
Potassium, doesn't do that...so USE KOH and Koolaid or Vinegar.... but never anythi8ng with SALT IN IT
as the salt makes Chlorine gas that can Kill you dead even in small amounts! using one of the 3 I mentioned will result in a clean running cell ...
...
you can condition a cell quickly by soaking the cell in Muratic Acid ...it will etch the plates and remove any oils from the metal... but be careful and make sure your gasket material won't dissolve in it ! if so don't use it !!!!!!
 how ever you can never get out ALL the impurities out of the metal so frequant changes of the electrolyte early on will pay off later in a cleaner running cell later.
...
KOH can BURN or discolor and turn Coffee Brown and coat the cell and stop production as well
I had this happen to me... but its un-clear weather it was the KOH or the NON stainless steel Nuts I had in the cell that were the cause ! ...I may never know, but it wrecked havoc ! production went from almost 4 LPM to about 1/2LPM over a period of 2 months ... I had to ETCH the cells to clean them
I emptied the cell and flushed it out good with a high pressure nozzle on the garden hose
I poured in 100% Muratic acid and timed it for ten minutes, which was a bit long 8min would have done it... I poured out the Acid.... then Flushed the cell again with the nozzle and got it all clean
but it took the last flushing to do it... the Acid just LOOSENED the crud on the plates it didn't remove it...the flushing removed it ....
 I put the cell back in and it was as good as new again.   something to keep in mind should you run into discolored Electrolyte !
....
Bob....

[Bob]

just FYI.. My cell was a 3 "Randy cells" in a gallon sewer pipe container, their connections stuck through the side of the container so I could hook them in any configuration I wanted electrically.
...and I tried everything series, parallel and 1, 2, and all 3 cells the best hookup was all 3 cells in Parallel with as many amps as I could give it (close to 40amps)
I got a good 4LPM after the cleaning but Heat output was extremely HIGH... high enough to MELT 2 Pop off caps on the way to town on a hour commute....on 2 separate occasions.
 I needed a way to Cool the cell and run More amps at the same time... however space under the hood of my Toyota R-22 was limited... and winter was coming on , I took the unit off the truck because I feared it freezing up and splitting the container.... haven't had it back on sense (I gott'a get that thing back on the truck ! 40 to 45MPG is nothing to laugh at ! it worked and worked very good!)
...
Bob.....


 

[Bart_Maztra]

I am from Holland, so getting my koh from Texas might be not the best option for me

I have a little amount of koh. I thought to condition the cell with naoh, and use it once the cell is conditioned. Its for me very easy to get hold of cheape naoh.
Think in Holland it is difficult for a private person to buy of chemicals.

[Bob]

Ok... that does change things a bit ! LOL !
 Again, let me reiterate... NAOH is Sodium Hydroxide.... its a drain cleaner here in the USA probably there too... but it is a SALT thing and unless you want allot of GREEN SLIME in your electrolite I'd stay away from it.... I have read however that some people have used it and not had a green slime problem at all... I don't know why...because in my mind it should produce green slime and chlorine gas out the Kazoo !   but perhaps if the cells are conditioned good it will stop that green slime production... I really don't know... Switching to NAOH should be as simple as just mixing a batch and putting it in the cell, if you switch back it may take weeks of flushing it out with a garden hose or a quick bath in Muratic Acid to clean it up...
  TRY it and see is all I can say.... I'ed rather see you use KOH but if its a Pain to get try the NAOH and see if you can get the cell to run clean...
 Keep in mind the first few runnings of the cell will probably be dirty so drain and flush it a few times and make fresh batches each time to break in the plates to that electrolyte...(condition them)
it should clear up from what I have read... but it will alwayse produce Chlorine gas so don't breathe the HHO that comes out of it ....OBVIOUSLY!
... Another tip is to use Distilled, de-mineralized water as your liquid in the Electrolyte this will reduce the SLIME by a long way... KOH fights the formation of the green slime which is actually the Oil and crud seeping from the metal... along with salt...and if you happen to have any normal Steel in the cell anywhere it will rust up and turn BLACK faster than you can say BOO !
 For Kicks I mixed up a electrolyte made of water and table salt and it worked great except for the 2" of Green slime it made in the bucket ! but it produced HHO great and I could get 20amps out of it
.. though my 30 amp charger kept kicking off !  LOL
... I fought green slime for a LONG time I tried everything, including rebuilding my cells and using nothing but Stainless steel... it still produced some green slime ! I then switched to Distilled Demineralized water and it Finally stopped making the slime...
  That is important...because if your cell makes that slime or goo that floats on the surface, it will coat the plates and slowly shut down production.  during this battle I would put in a fresh batch of KOH and go to town or the Ranch and then go home , a 110mile round trip and after about 6 such trips the production went from 2LPM to about 1.25LPM... amp draw kept getting lower as well and I had to constantly add a few flakes to get the amp draw back up.... (about 2 teaspoons to 1gal if I remember right.) so the longevity was terrible, it was not a set and forget operation by any means.
when I finally got it CLEAN I didn't have to mess with it at all except to add about 1 cup of distilled water to the container each time I went to town... and it worked like that for about 4 months till I discovered a drop in output and checked the electrolyte and it was coffee brown!
and of coarse the plates were no longer shinning... they were coated badly... I did the Muratic acid flush like I mentioned and that cleaned it up and I used it about 1 month more before the snow hit and I took it off because it was slushy inside the container when I checked it.
....
 So for USING a HHO generator keeping it working CLEAN is very Important and the only 3 things I have tried that actually worked was Lemonade,KOH and Vinegar... although Vinegar was too weak to use at a max concentration (straight vinegar) and only 12 amps or so it wasn't strong enough to use!
Lemonade did work and work extremely well although it took 24 packs to get my cell to pull 20amps or a bit more...it was still rather cheap at 8c a pouch.  it is also VERY clean running and I highly recommend Lemonade!.
buying it out of season can be a PAIN however ! so stock up if you try using it.
...
Bob...