The Manta Grid.

[Manta]

Bob,

I've a bitmap drawing that is too large to attach.
Can you please reduce it and post it here.

Dave
(Manta)

p.s. check your Email.

[Bob]

Ummm I dunno if that will work or not as I suspect a short circuit in the works
if the lead from the neg on b1 went only to the negative plate and didn't continue to the GRID wire
perhaps...
...
My question is what are you trying to accomplish here ?
a way to lower amperage draw from B1  by adding a bias voltage with B2 ?
or are you just trying to confuse the electrons like you have me ?  LOL !
...
it looks to me that if you turn R1 you will heat up the grid because the grid is a direct short between both poles of the battery...
turning  the Pot even a small amount will only allow a small amount of heat... or electron flow
having extra electrons flowing next to electrolyzing plates may help the brake down of the water...  I don't know... or reduce the need for High amps to do the same amount of work...its anyone's guess!
but I suspect that the electrons are not FREE ELECTRONS able to go to where ever they want because of the charges involved... the grid will flow and so will the plates  without being effected by each other.... that is my best guess !

Bob......

P.S. it took the picture with no size change at all, I just changed the FORMAT of the picture and saved it AS a .JPG... and it took it first try... I've never had any luck at all with .BMP's LOL

[Manta]

Bob,

Thanks for posting the picture for me.

...My question is what are you trying to accomplish here ?...

Ok,  The idea comes from the way the old triode valve (Tube to you) works. Looking at the drawing I may have got my polarities the wrong way around.  Back in a few minutes.

Back again.
Here ,hopefully, is a basic grid bias circuit.  with the anode load missing.

Manta

[Manta]

Anyway,  the idea is to control the current through one cell of a set using a stainless steel mesh as a control grid . The spacings will be slightly larger than the normal cell,  so maybe that cell will have to have a stronger electrolyte mix.

So,  dealing with this cell only and assuming the presence of the other cells in series .

First the electrolyte is adjusted until the required current flow is obtained.  This is with the grid battery disconnected. Current will flow through the grid plate with no effect as it is only connected,  at the moment,  at one end;  the 'ground' end. So it works as a normal cell.

Thinking back to the triode valve. The principle is that a small change in grid voltage will have a large effect on the anode current.

This is, as we all know,  due to the 'like repels like' effect of current flow. If you make the grid more negative it will impede the flow of electrons,  thus reducing the current flow from anode to cathode.

The grid doesn't pass any of the anode-cathode current under normal bias conditions.

So,  back to the cell.

If we now connect the grid plate we should be able to control the relatively high current between the positive and negative main battery plates by varying the voltage on the grid battery. As the grid and the main plates are on different circuits the high current will not flow in the grid circuit.

More detail of the original radio circuit can be found in the Radiostructor Basic Electronics course. Book 2.page 21.

Hope this helps a bit. I'll make up a test cell when I get chance.  But I thought I'd get the idea out so that anyone else can give it a go if they want.

Dave
(Manta)   

[Manta]

Bob,

I'm going to do another drawing of the cell.  Will you please remove the original from your post and replace it.
I'll send it via email when it's done.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Ok heres the new Picture...
I think it will work now that you explained your reasoning Manta... its a great idea !!!!
this would be a Electrical "Throttle" for the cell that you could control from inside the car
without the need of a PWM.... its a FANTASTIC IDEA ...if it works !
Please keep us informed of the tests!
...
Bob...

[Bob]

Ok I have been trying to think of a way to build a cell with this "Manta GRID" Incorperated in it
and think if we can find a "thin insulating Membrane" that will hold up to the Electrolite in its max saturation mixture, that was able to PASS the liquid easy... we'ed have it...
a plate system of stainless steel plate, thin menbrane, stainless steel screen,another thin Membrane and the next plate. would make up one cell, stacking say 7 to 10 of these in a stack would make a
"Throttle able  Manta-Grid Cell" ...
although a large Potentiometer would be needed and an extra battery,as well as a amp gauge on the dash or Bias voltage indicator, it would be far better than any PWM
because of the ability to control a Hudge amount of Amperage.
...
  If it works (and I see no reason why it wouldn't) you would have a Hardware controlled Hydroxy cell
able to withstand the harshest of punishments...unlike the PWM's
...
Hats off to ya Manta !   great thinking !

....
Bob.....

[Bob]

Manta... I've been wondering if your idea may well be something great or not !
it occurred to me it is allot like a transistor in that it has a pos,neg and bias... I'm wondering if it will AMPLIFY production... it may well do just that... its possible though not very likely because the grid would have to be made of germanium or something like that but in a rudimentary way it may well amplify production.... because in essence that cell would be a transistor...transistors almost always amplify, some more than others  even a switching transistor amplifies... but in this case what would it amplify ? normally there is a signal to amplify that is what the transistor is supposed to do
but in this case there is straight DC... so perhaps even that will be amplified....I don't really know I am guessing here...
 I do know when you use a transistor as a switch  you connect the Emitter and collector to the thing you want to turn on ... to ground ...when voltage is applied to the base the Emitter and collector will conduct and turn on the thing...a LED diode light for instance. applying this to the cell drawing
it SHOULD reduce resistance between both plates in a big way....  making the Cell a kind of electrical SWITCH.... by adding a bias voltage you may well make the 2 plates conduct very well
...this COULD be really good, or not good at all... depending on what your trying to accomplish
the question is would it help split the water molecules apart or not .... that's the $64.00 question here.  I think it Might indeed do just that !
 if my suspicions are correct Here Manta You may have stumbled on a way to boost HHO production by 200 percent or more... that not only would be a good thing... but it may save the world !
...
I am so curious about the results now I can't stand it ! I may have to start playing with a test cell just to see what it can do !
...
if you find you have hit the jack pot here and want to patten the device let me know and I'll remove your posts for you ! <GRIN> Pattents don't stop individuals from making the things but it does stop them from making and selling them... but for personal use  it doesn't interfere at all  so that wouldn't really change anything here... but for selling the pattent rights you'ed want the drawings removed...and sense I posted them you can't remove them only I can... so if that comes up all you have to do is ask !
...
wouldn't it be so neat if large production was as simple as making a duplicate of a transistor in electrolyte and connect it LIKE a Transistor ?   it may well be that simple... I have seen stranger things in my time ! LOL !

PLEASE Keep me posted on your tests !
that Has to work !
I just got a gut feeling!
HAHAHAHAHAHA
....
Bob.......



 

[Bob]

Another thought occurred to me about this idea.
if the Grid does indeed reduce the current flow from the main battery and its plates... the output of HHO will obviously be effected... because its the strength of the magnetic fields that tear apart the water molecules, lower the strength and you lower the amount it can do.  OK that is to be expected
I wouldn't expect to see reduced amperage being used and the output production go UP after all...
(unless the cell acts like a transistor and amplifies production)
...
But if we Mix a Max concentration of electrolyte and say feed the cell 50 amps but add a bias voltage to reduce the current draw by 50% , down to 25amps draw...the HHO output should fall in tune to that 25amp level, same goes for the heat and all that, the only change is where you are getting the power from to "Throttle" the cell down from, and in this case it happens to be another battery...
...
heat in the cell will go UP because of the GRID getting hot  if for no other reason., but as Manta pointed out earlier it takes very little grid voltage to make a very big effect on the anodes and cathodes of a tube, and it should work the same way here.. so the heat generated should be so low as to not be detectable !
....
if there was a way to attract Hydrogen and oxygen molecules and put them in the cell we might be able to make a cell that AMPLIFIES production !
....
hummmm
....
Bob......

[Bob]

Well Come on Manta ! I'm sitting here all expecant-like waiting for your Test results! any tinkering going on over there yet ?
I think you got a great idea there !  Please post what ever ya find , good or bad !
...
Bob.....

[Manta]

Bob.

Bob,

Best make yourself some coffee;  it could be a while.

At the moment I've a lot of things I have to do,  also I go back to work for the whole of November (covering for holidays) . I was watching the weather maps starting to turn white over Skandanavia,  and we are forecast to have the wind change to the North East this week.

Wind from the North-East chills the air;  It will soon be snowing out there.

Also I notice that the US above New York seems to be showing signs.

 so I can't do anything with the idea for a while.
But It's there for anyone to play about with.  Feel free to fiddle and improve on it.

I think that if you assume a nominal voltage of 13 from the alternator,  then (if using separate cells) you would have ten cells.  You would only need to apply the grid to one of them.

I don't think that there will be any amplification.  If I remember rightly the amplification in a triode comes from the voltage swing across the anode load resistor due to the Anode current variations caused by variation in the grid circuit. A bit like the voltage swing across a transistor collector being down to variation of the base current (except with a triode it's grid voltage).  If I also remember rightly there shouldn't be any problem with the grid getting hot as long as you don't let it become positive with respect to what would be the cathode plate.

I think that,  once the initial maximum current is established, it shouldn't be too difficult to devise an electronic circuit that tracks the current and increases the negative voltage automatically as the cell starts to heat up and the current tries to increase. So you could maybe do away with the dash mounted variable resistor.  On second thoughts,  best keep it as a back up.

Anyway,  I'm getting too old to worry about making a fortune from this.  It's probably been patented years ago anyway (it may not even work).

I'd be interested to read any results that anyone gets trying it.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

HAHAHA Ok Manta !
well I have to agree on the Amplification aspect... it just seams too unlikely...but wouldn't it be neat if it did ! LOL !
...Too much to do seams to be whats going around now.... I put in new rear steps to the house yesterday , only to have the Wife open the rear door to admire my handy work, and rip the bottom henge loose!
(that corner of the house is rotting away, I have to fix it soon!)...
I went ahead and re filled the SPA and got it warming up now...that should help the old bones relax a bit more !...hehehehehe
...
I'ed love to play with that idea and see what I can discover but not while the sun shines...I got too much to do before bad weather sets in !
...
I do think I'll find Tupper-ware rectangle container and set it on the bench and make it my cell testing station...
...
Yes there are many ways you could use the "Manta Grid" if it works as planned, from just being one additional cell to a larger cell, or have all the cells configured like it in the same way.
the idea of being able to run a Max concentration of KOH and still be able to control the amperage used... has many advantages!  , less heat in the cell because of the high concentration of KOH,
no thermal run away, able to change the OUTPUT of the cell if driving conditions demand it.
...and many others I can't seam to think of right now!
...
it needs to be tested so we know if it works or not ! any TAKERS ?
...
Bob....

[Bob]

I was re reading this Manta and I don't understand WHY I had problems with it in the first place...but your idea is a great one... using a small cell off to the side as a current limiter for the main cell is really a good idea... the question is ...will it work or not and will it get hot and boil away the electrolyte or not ?
...
I think this is better than having a heater coil in series with the cell.... but it accomplishes the same thing I think.
 Good thinking Manta ! 
 THANK YOU FOR THE CONTRIBUTION!
...
Bob....

[Manta]

It's one of the many things I need to work on when I get other things out of the way.

Dave
(Manta)