Advanced methods of producing hydroxy

[Manta]

I notice that over on the scambusters site (which is even quieter than here) adm talks of more advanced methods of producing hydroxy than the brute force 'give it more amps' method much loved here.
Any one any idea just what he had in mind ?

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Not I but I'd love to hear more !
...
Bob....

[janmarsh]

Dave, I've just subscribed to HHO Scambusters. It may simply be PWM that is being refered to !

[Manta]

Maybe if the two sites (and any others that are interested) can find a new approach then we will all see some revival of the process. Hope so.
Whilst digging amongst my scrap pile today I found a three foot long by six inch SS trough. Don't know what grade it is,  but suspect it is from my days at the chicken factory.  So it will be food grade.  Should make some useful plates.

Bob,
 What's happening these days with you ?

Dave
(Manta)

[janmarsh]

All have a nose around this one :

http://www.nicksrealm.com/Forum/index.php                               

[Bob]

Been there before Marshal... there's a bunch of nasty Bastards there...to put it mildly!
...
it wouldn't surprise me if the NEW Production thing is a PWM... its been touted as such before and
it simply isn't all that great.... but it does give you the ability to adjust the amps while driving down the road and that it worth a great deal... but they are expensive!
I don't use one myself.... I'd probably fry it in short order anyway ! LOL
...
However Bob Boyce designed one that was supposed to increase the production a great deal because it oscillated at the resonant frequency of water ... dunno if that's true or not though....seams to me a pizo electric transducer would do the same thing... ones for making water vapor, in humidifiers
...
Bob.....

[Manta]

Can't see it just referring to PWM. After all,  all pulse wave modulation is boils down to a high speed switch. They also give of so much heat whilst operating that the heat loss adds to the general inefficiency.
I suspect there must be some other way.
Assuming,  of course,  that it is even possible to produce say 20LPM of hydroxy without significant heat.
There are various ways to keep a hot cell cool,  but that still seems brute force to me.
Another way to adjust the amps would be to have some device that alters the gap between them as the current increases. I have some ideas on this,  but they will have to wait while the big shed reconstruction is finished.

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

large production may be as simple as heat...
I was watching "Destroyied in seconds" last night (mainly because there was nothing else on worth watching), and a Magnesium fire was burning really well when the fire trucks got there and they put their water cannon on it and and the resulting explosion was Horrindious!.... it turns out that putting water on a magnesium fire brakes the water down into its individual molicules because of the intense heat , over 4,000 degrees.... the resulting cloud of Hydroxy gas exploded causing a bunch of damage.
....
.... if a person could vaporise WATER that well it would be easy to produce any amount of hydroxy gas you desire....but the problem becomes one of produceing the heat needed once again....
...
I doubt an exhaust pipe is hot enough but it may be 800 to 1200 degrees is the exhaust temp on most cars
more that enough to vaporise water for a short time... but you can't sustain that tempiture for long... it doesn't take long at all to make the exhaust pipe change tempiture to below the vaporizeing point of water... but perhaps a Brass incert between the exhaust headder and the exhaust pipe with a water pipe in it would produce enough hydroxy gas to run the engine.... say a 1/4" donut
of water in the brass incert.... surely it would stay hot enough to keep water vaporized...
...
this is allot like my gasoline vaporization things , but water unlike gasoline won't return to its liquid form once it is broken down completely.... at least i don't think it will!  steam will
but Hydroxy gas won't ...so the heat must have to be quite intense!
...more than likely this idea would just recondense on its way through the intake manifold and you'ed have nothing but water or steam to try to burn....
...what we need is 4000 degree heat on a tube and pump water through it....
...
perhaps a coal fired furnace ?  like a forge, hot enough to melt steel, but use it to make Hydroxy gas ?.... the amount of gas you could get off of it would be far more than you need to run even the biggest engines....
...
 so whats wrong with this idea guys
...
Bob.....

[Bob]

Come to that , why not make huge quantities of Hydroxy gas and bottle it and sell it to the public as a gas replacement...like Propane ! simple and easy solution to the gas crisis !
....
As Manta would tell us I'm sure... it would take as much energy to make the hydroxy gas that way as you get out of it !... but that's just fine... no laws of Physics are broken, and you just simply convert water into usable fuel.
....
 Now the question comes up what ways can we make a 4000deg fire ? and does it even have to be that hot or not?   I don't happen to have a barrel of magnesium I can light on fire to test this, so I have to use something else....
  this goes back to arc welding under water and wondering if the bubbles that brake the surface will explode or not... more than likely they will.... if so it can be done using an electric arc!
so a self adjusting Arc Light mechanism... will get you copious amounts of hydroxy gas !
just do it under water!....
...
 this is actually Still the brute force method... ripping the molecules apart by heat instead of electricity and magnetism.  but it is substantially different in the fact that you are using the Amps to make the electric arc, to make the heat, to make the gas..... instead of using the amps to make the electricity flow to cause the pull to be strong enough to pull the water apart.
....
Comments ?
...
Bob....

[Manta]

Bob,

Re No. 7 above.
I think that all you'll get is high temp water vapour that will condense back to water. The conversion to hydrogen oxygen requires the high temp steam to be passed through a platinum catalyst. At least that's how I think it works.

Re No.8 above.

...Come to that , why not make huge quantities of Hydroxy gas and bottle it and sell it to the public as a gas replacement...like Propane ! simple and easy solution to the gas crisis ..

Sounds like an easy solution to the population crisis as well.  You wouldn't be able to sleep at nights for the sound of exploding hydroxy powered devices.
As you know, it is very risky indeed to store hydroxy,  and far safer to use it as it is made.  I had in mind making a 20 litre batch and firing it off to see just what it does. Then I thought about spending my remaining days in the local pen' for detonating an explosive device and decided against the idea.

...so a self adjusting Arc Light mechanism... will get you copious amounts of hydroxy gas !
just do it under water!....

But wont any gas be consumed by the arc immediately ?

I was listening to an item on the radio a few days ago about fuel cells.   The commentator touched on the subject of using hydrogen as a fuel in normal engine and made the observation that it was really a huge waste of the resource.  That it was far better to use it in a fuel cell.  So maybe that is the way we should all be going.
' don't suppose you have any fuel cells amongst you bits and pieces ?


Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Ok granted, big tanks of Hydroxy gas , pressurized  containing thousands of gallons of very volatile gas would ruin my sleep completely ! LOL   the general public is not ready for that!
...
as far as the Arc generator goes, No it wouldn't burn up all the Hydroxy gas.... just like the Burning
Magnisum, when the water hits the magnesium the flame goes completely out for a few seconds ...then re ignites due to the high heat.... then it explodes the gasses that were produced....
in an Arc there is no flame burning... just intense heat of the arc itself...
...
a while back some guys at AT&T labs I believe it was made a Arc generator and it worked very well but more or less gave up on it because of the high voltage power that was needed to make it work.
... so the idea is not a new one, its been done before in a laboratory. but never really used.
...
I am not sure what it takes to make a Hydrogen fuel cell....I think all they are is a fancy hydroxy cell that can be reversed (a good trick no doubt!) and the idea is to make it an electric generator
not a hydrogen generator.... but sense they can be reversed they can be used in either way.
...
I am really against using Hydrogen alone as a fuel.... because its a frightful waste ! the hydroxy gas is so much more powerful....I believe in a Hydrogen fuel cell they vent the oxygen to the atmosphere.... throwing it away !
People against using Hydrogen as a fuel  usually point out that hydrogen is much less powerful than gasoline, which is true, so use Hydroxy gas instead of Hydrogen
and you only loose about 1/4 of the power found in gasoline... an acceptable loss when the gas is free
...
Anyway... we can make huge amounts of Hydroxy gas by using intense heat (and no flame)
how much heat is needed is unclear..... but knowing that temperature would be helpful indeed !
....
we know a small amount of heat breaks down water into steam.... not hydroxygas... steam once allowed to re cool will re condense back into water.   Hydroxy gas however as far as I know, will not re condense in any way.... this must be because it is so finely broken apart, that it just stays separated.... for how long on a geologic scale is also unknown but can't be forever or water would not exist at all..... so Logic tells me its not perminant by any means so storage is questionable!
...
I should be able to make a Arc generator from my arc welder..... Hummmmmm
....
Bob