its all a Myth and can't possably work!

[Bob]

As the title says I've herd it said on TV that its all a myth and can't possably work simply because it takes too much power to break down the water into Hydroxy gas... for the little amount of gas you get out of it.... they quoted the laws of conservation of Motion and a few other phsyics laws as Proof too
<GRIN>
  Well Obviously you can't believe everything you hear on TV... but for those that wonder about such things and haven't made a Hydroxy unit and aren't getting better gas mileage because of it,
I offer this ...
...
 the laws of Physics were made to be broken... they are not chiseled in stone ! Most every law of Physics has EXCEPTIONS to the rule... and I believe making Hydroxy gas falls into that category
...
 to date about the best output we can expect to get is 1liter of Hydroxy gas per minute, for ten amps applied... so 20amps will get you 2LPM.
this isn't very much when you consider feeding a big V-8 engine, but is a bunch when you consider a Moped...
...
 in all my research I have come up with 15 to 20LPM  is all that I need to run my Toyota PU on Hydroxy gas alone...  that may indeed be a low estimate but I don't think so, it should run the truck fine on that amount of gas....
 but according to the fella on TV there is no way I can generate enough electrical power to make that gas....
 I totally disagree.  if I made up 10 "Randy cells" and fed them all with 20 amps each
I would get out 20 lpm... each cell giving a mere 2.0 lpm and needing 20 amps to do that work.
that is a whopping 200amps....  can my 2.4liter engine turn an alternator that makes 200amps ? certainly !  people do it all the time ! 300amp alternators are expensive but can be had at alternator places, on line and even upgraded from standard alternators... Nothing is going against Physics yet!
...
so if I buy a 300 amp alternator and put it on my truck  I would then have the ability to run 10 Randy cells all at the same time.... generating 20 lpm... which is more than plenty to run my truck under normal circumstances. if I were to Pull a trailer with a heavy load it is possible I would need more than 20 LPM , granted but for normal driving it should indeed be fine!
...
I think that the people that make such statements may indeed mean well, but they are totally wrong !
...Nothing in what I said goes against the laws of Physics, or the conservation of motion or anything else that I know of.... yet its OBVIOUS that it will work.
 they state that if it could be done people would have already done it... I again disagree... because people are LAZY !  and I admit that's the main reason I haven't done it yet <BLUSH>
...
 I personally went from 22~23MPG on that truck to over 40mpg while I had my hydroxy cell on it... I took it off because of the winter freezing temperatures and haven't put it back on, opting to build a larger cell that gets me 20LPM before I put it back on the truck... and alas that hasn't came about yet.
...
  It Definitely Works... if its Not working for you, you have something amiss, and there is a reason for it......
  but it definitely does work !
...
Bob....

[janmarsh]

Confirm something for me Bob !

I'm basing my cell design on The Randy Mk.1         If I recall correctly,  Randy gained the most suitable conditions & performance of his cells when they were in a triple series connection.   

Was the supply to Randy's cells the standard auto voltage of 12 volts ?

                                                                                                     Marshall 

[Bob]

Man Marshal it was a long time ago !
 I believe when he hooked 3 cells in series the output did indeed go down a bit instead of like 6LPM he got something like 4.0 or 5.0LPM....  but it ran cool and that was his main concern...
and Yes it was a 12vdc Dodge truck 2.5ltr 4wd. but Remember he only gave it something like 30 or 40amps
because at the time he didn't have the big alternator on his truck.
...
 Randy has always been concerned with Running Cool in his cell... Unlike myself ...and I have had problems because of that. He hasn't !
...
the Randy cell Mk1 can run all day in a gallon container at 20 amps and not over heat and it gives off 2LPM all the time...(until the cells get dirty, but they shouldn't get dirty if you built it with all Stainless steel parts!)

...
Perhaps reading old posts on the Randy cell would be better than trusting my faulty Memory ! <GRIN>
...
I know I had 3 Randy cells in series in one container and I was lucky to get 4LPM and I gave them everything I could... 30amps....
... I also hooked them in Parallel and fed them 30 amps and I left it that way for quite a while
 after removing one of the cells from the power source so I only had 2 cells in parallel at almost 40amps.... 30~40 amps was pegging my meter so I can't be certain on the amp draw.
at that power I was getting almost exactly 4LPM... but I did have over heating problems ... melted my POP off caps it got so hot in fact! ( it was about 1.5hrs drive time from my place in Shingle town to the Ranch here at the time)
....
I know at One time Randy had 6 cells going... but he was barely giving them enough amps to make them produce (something like 30 amps divided between all 6 cells)... even still his output was something like 5.0 LPM.... Also Remember he was using Lemonade as the electrolyte.
....
 Its all sort'a fuzzy now in my memory so if I were you I'ed read the old posts to be sure ! HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA
....
FWIW.
Bob...

[janmarsh]

Bob, I'll print out all Randy's post's & make note of the Mk1 info.

Heat is a waste of energy...........  If a system can be made to function with less of  it, it has to be an advantage.

Kool Aid was used by Randy.  I have unsweetened lemon & also pure Citric Acid.  I will compare them both.  I recall Randy mentioning that result's were better with Kool Aid, suggesting something more than the Citric Acid within Kool Aid was at work.

                                                                                                  Marshall.

[Bob]

hehehe good !
...
I sent Randy a small amount of KOH so he could try it.... I think he tried it once and gave up on it that fast too , so the Kool aide works good for him !...
 I think what ever works best for you is the thing you should use !
...
 I would still Like to have one cell to maintain instead of 10 small ones however...
and therein is the problem... a large cell like Bob Boyce's is expensive to build now...Over $300.00 for the stainless steel now !... that cured my build real quick!
so I started to build a cell using wall switch covers from the hardware store, at a $1.29ea. i can afford a bunch of them....I think its my cheapest alternative...
perhaps I'll get to it this winter I dunno...
....
Bob...

[Manta]

A 300 Amp alternator equates to 300 x 12 = 3600 Watt. which is 3600 / 750 = 4.8 Horse power. Just to drive the alternator.
Any heat produced is just wasted energy. So I would suspect that you would need lots of smaller cells that run cool.  Even then, would the total heat from all these cells equal that from a couple or three big ones ?  If so then there is no advantage.
The trick seems to be a heat free cell.  Any ideas ?

Dav(Manta)

p.s.  using a radiator for the cell doesn't count.  That is only moving the heat somewhere else.

[Bob]

Hi Manta !
 I would have said 8 to 10 hp to turn that 300amp alternator... but even that is Not enough to bog the engine down of my R-22 Toyota truck it develops  something like 120hp or so i think it is... could be more I don't know.
...
 I realize Heat is wasted power....  but in the real world things develop heat when work is being done
and you really can't get away from it.
  I think what your saying is that 300amps simply can't make enough Hydroxy gas to run the engine of that size.... maybe a 5hp engine but not a 120hp engine... Right ?
...
 If you Remember back when John, "Hydrotech" had his 3 cells working on his big truck and was making 8 to 12LPM he actually ran the truck on Hydroxy gas to the end of the block and back on Hydroxy gas alone.
and no gasoline at all.... it ran very poorly  because it wasn't enough Hydroxy gas for that big v-8 engine ...but it did run....
... what I'm saying is More gas than that.... 15LPM to 20LPM to run a Much Much smaller engine and better running quality...
...
 I agree that there isn't much PROOF out there that it can be done...
and the guys that Ran Briggs & Stratton 5hp engines haven't really given a quantitative amount of data for anyone to work with... except that it ran on approx. 4LPM... using that information brings you to a staggering figure of over 80LPM just to IDLE my truck... but it would still Run on Hydroxy gas alone....(My truck engine is far more efficient in operation than a 5hpB&S engine.... those engines really SUCK for economy !)(120hp/5hp=24*4 LPM= 96LPM needed at that rait)
...
is it possible to make that much Hydroxy gas IN my truck ? lets see....
96LPM divided by 2LPM per Randy cell is 48.... I'd need 48 Randy cells to make that much Hydroxy gas...
48 cells taking 20 amps each makes  960 amps
so Running 4  300amp Alternator's(300x4=1200amps) on the engine of my truck would supply enough power to do the job of making 96LPM to run the engine without gasoline and on Hydroxy gas alone...
... so in Theory even THEN it would be possible to do it....even if the truck "Ran like a dog" because of pulling the 4 alternators all the time at Max output....
 it would be like having free fuel...no stops at the gas station !
you would be making all the fuel you need to drive at the time you need it!
 ....
But I am totally convinced it will not take anywhere NEAR 96 LPM to run my truck.... as I said before 15 to 20 LPM will do the trick...(One day I hope to prove that point!)
Now weather I'm right or Wrong on How much Hydroxy gas it takes , Makes No difference ! as you can see even in the worst case sinerio it can still be done!
...
and its Not braking any laws of Physics to do it either!
...

Bob...

[janmarsh]

Standard vehicle alternators have very poor efficiency.  When you consider they can be as low as 55% , Bob has a figure of  8 to 10 HP about right.

If designers of HHO systems are unable to obtain Permanent Magnet type, Bosch seem to have improved the standard brushed version a great deal................ although I have not looked into these claims.
 
You're HHO system is going to be severly restricted staying with conventional vehicle brushed units.

                                                       
Bosch Unveils High-Efficiency Alternator

Jun 7, 2004 12:00 PM


Robert Bosch Corp.

has released its Ultra Premium Long Haul Alternator for commercial vehicles. The company states the alternator, which operates at 70% efficiency, provides greater electrical power and efficiency at road speed or at idle than conventional original equipment replacement alternators that typically operate at 55% efficiency.

The alternator produces 160 amps operating output, and 80 amps at idle. Dual internal cooling fans help maintain the alternator’s temperature under various conditions.

The Long Haul Alternator is backed by a two-year, 250,000-mi. warranty.

Other features include:


patented winding technology that uses 30% more copper than conventional OE alternators to contribute to efficiency

external heat dissipating regulator and external rectifier mounted on the back of the unit, combined with the alternator’s heat sink design allows rapid heat dissipation

diodes in the rectifier designed for longer life

long-life bearings

reduced slip ring diameter designed for reduced carbon brush wear


     

[Manta]

Bob,  Janmarsh,

I do realise that a heat-free cell is not really possible.  what I meant is that,  as Janmarsh mentioned,  heat is waste, and it would be nice if there was some way of keeping it to the absolute minimum. To me,  dumping the heat via a radiator is a brute force method that somehow needs to be got around. But I can't see how. I suppose if you were using the cell to power a motor by your workshop you could use the waste heat to warm the shed.
Is the heat coming from the plates or the electrolyte ? Both probably.  As the heat is from resistance, the resistance needs to be reduced somewhere. That has got to give you more current flow for the same heat out put.
Has anyone compared the heat generation from different electrolytes for the same Wattage ?
Just throwing out random thoughts.
Does anyone know if the acid electrolyte (Koolade) has the same detrimental effect on copper plates as NaOH or KOH ?

I still think that the main problem that needs to be addressed is the control of the hydroxy to the engine.
Just dumping it in via a pipe to the inlet manifold will always give problems. It could be a killer in heavy traffic.

As for Bob's estimate of required horse power.  I agree. My figures were the idealised result from Ohm's law. No efficiency taken into account.

Meanwhile,  back to my biodiesel.  I need to get all my old stock veg and chicken fat converted.  The drums are taking up too much space.

Regards

Dave
(Manta)

[janmarsh]

Dave,  I agree.........   From the outset, I've seen a need to regulate HHO to the engine.   This shouldn't be a problem. A simple adjustable diaphragm regulator working from intake suction is fairly basic in it's construction & should be easy to build when taking into account flow requirements.

Concerning heat...............  It was Randy's approach which appealed to me.  He was gaining impressive output at temperatures only just into three figures F.

I'm not sure of copper plates....  While 316SS is available, I will stick with that.  Kool Aid or pure Citric Acid are pretty tame electrolytes compared to most but would probably still be capable of producing gunge when contacting copper.

PS   You're garden shed must smell like an abattoir   HaHa.
 
                                                                                               Marshall

[randy]

Hey guys, I'm still lurking around here occasionally, Haven't had much time to work on my latest cell I started over a year ago, but I think It'll be a winner, after the cells took out my hall reluctor module in the distributor out in the middle of nowhere a couple years ago I haven't had a cell going since, I was trying to use glucose as an antifreeze, needless to say the cell didn't like it, so now I want to completely isolate the cells from the vehicles electrical system, my best output came from wiring the cells parallel. The cell I'm working on has 66 washers on common electrodes being powered from both ends, when I had 6 cells running parallel with lemon koolaid I could get it to pull way too many amps, Production was huge but I was afraid I was going to have an electrical meltdown hahahaha, I'm hung up on using the koolaid because it stays clean and eliminates the need to service the cell other then adding water, I ran three cells parallel for several months with no problems until I started experimenting to find an antifreeze, didn't have any luck in that area although the glucose will work great in the bubbler. Figured I'd just design the housing so it can drain completely and pour the koolaid back in when needed in freezing weather.

[janmarsh]

Hi Randy, Good to see you're still around.   

I remember you commenting on the larger number washer cell.  Have you installed that 200amp Alternator yet ?

                                                                          Marshall.

[Bob]

ITS RANDY !
 Howdy Buddy ! good to see ya again !
 I don't remember the particulars of your brake down in the middle of no where but I seam to remember that something shorted out.... hardly the cells fault ! <GRIN>
... that cell sounds allot like what I have been thinking as of late except that you are feeding each plate individually I think.... My idea is have a bunch of washers on a threaded rod hooked to the pos. side and another bunch hooked to the neg. side and drop them both in a container and see what they do.
... I doubt the output will be great but with Max concentration of the electrolyte it should produce fairly good... I think that using higher amps will produce more HHO... yes the closeness of the plates makes a huge difference, but that makes the cell hard to construct... can't we just do what the sicentest do and put 2 electrodes in the same electrolyte  and get  Large results if the Plate area is there ? I would think so....but don't actually know for sure.
 Ages ago when You and I were "TUNEING" the "Randy Cell"  we discovered that for every given amperage
there is an Optimum Plate area... what if we took that to its extreams ? 
Like tune a cell to 200amps, make the cell super simple to construct and easy to add or subtract plate area... washers on a S.S. Threaded Rod is about as simple as it gets. pour 200amps to it and check the output... add washers and check again... if the output goes up add more and check again!
...I have a gut feeling it is NOT the configuration of the cell at all... but a property of amps vs plate area... if this is true then we have been barking up the wrong tree all this time and can have large output fairly easy.
what da ya guys think of that ?
...
Bob......


 
 

[Manta]

Randy,
Hi. Yes it is indeed good to see you back.  I was beginning to think that Bob,  Marshall and I were the last men standing here. Sort of 'will the last person to give up on hydroxy please turn off the cell'.
My own experimenting has been pretty sparse recently as I have been concentrating on getting the shed sorted out and producing my bio. With Diesel at £1.15/Litre you need a back up.  But the hydroxy thing is never far from my thoughts.

Janmarsh,
Actually the drums of waste oil don't smell at all. The chicken fat is in sealed plastic tubs that were Pasturised before I go them. So as long as I don't open them until needed there is no problem. I've had them stored for about five year and the fat still makes good fuel. The veg oil is in steel 20 litre drums and,  again, there is no smell. Thank goodness.
As you say,  rigging up some sort of controlled feed for the hydroxy shouldn't be too much of a problem.  I was thinking of something like the old Stromberg carburetor. Do you remember them ? A vacuum controlled needle valve.

Bob,
One problem with large plates is this business of the current trying to take the shortest route through the electrolyte. I guess you would  need multiple feeds to the plates to get around that. If you get the current concentrating in one area then it would probably lead to local distortion of the plate from the heating.

All very interesting stuff.

Anyway, got to get back out to the shed. I have an old petrol BMW 1.8i that could benifit from the hydroxy treatment.  It does need a bit of body work first though.
There are two definite approaches that can be taken. 1) fit a Diesel engine. 2) come up with some demon hydroxy cell. Oh yes,  and 3) just run it as BMW intended it to be. That is my 'other project'.

 

Dave
(Manta)

[Bob]

Manta:
there is a 4th option for you... use the used oil to fire a Oil burner to make steam and convert your diesel engine to steam power.... or find a old Marine steam engine and just replace the engine with that
.... but I have a feeling that is a bit of a Large project... LOL!
...
Large plates do have a tennancy to Pool the electrons to the closest point to the other charge very true
...but if we consider a foot long rod with washers seperated by nuts the entire length and then fed at both ends ( horozontal in the tank) (or vertical in a large PVC Pipe) and running a high concentration of electrolyte I would think.... not sure at all, mind you... that the entire structure would be producing Hydroxy gas not just the closest edges... it totally depends on the conductivity of the electrolyte I believe.... just using straight water or even a small amount of electrolyte it would more than likely POOL the electrons... but at higher conductivity even the back side of the electrodes should produce gas.... granted, probably not as much as the front, but it should be enough to produce a sizeable amount of gas if you use enough amperage.
... don't ya think ?
...
Bob.......
 

[Bob]

Humm, you could also get carried away with that idea and make 3 Positive rods with washers,or even 4,
and one negative in the center and inter-lace them as close as possible... this would get much closer proximity of the plates.
...
the best way to accomplish this would be by having Plexiglas plates on the end for attachment of all the cell rods and then drop the entire thing in the  pipe or container.
...
this brings to mind the early TUBE designs that worked so extremely well...but would have even more plate area than the tube type...
..... Hummmm that might really work good.... now to find a bunch of 1/4" large fender washers! and a zillion half nuts!  ..... HAHAHAHAH

...
Bob....
 

[Manta]

Marshall, Bob,

A few nights ago. on 'Boat yard' (the Quest channel (channel 38 on freeview)) there was an item on an electric boat.  It was powered by a Lynch motor.  The thing about this motor is that it also makes a very good generator.  Here is a link to Lynch's wiki.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynch_motor

Maybe this would be better than the Bosch alternator.


It may be possible to view this program via the net.

Dave
(Manta)

[janmarsh]

Dave, This is looking interesting to say the least !  I have yet to get my nose into it.


http://www.lmcltd.net/index.php?page=renewable-energy