'Pinking'

[Manta]

Has anyone here come across the problem of what we Brits call 'pinking' ? Pre-ignition due mainly to the timing being too advanced for the grade of fuel used. I was particularly thinking that,  what with unleaded fuel and hydroxy,  this could be a real piston - killer.  You can only retard the timing so far before you lose all your power or start to overheat badly.

What ya'all say ?

manta

P.s.  I'm talking about the relatively simply ignition system,  not your fully computerized jobs;  though they are possibly a bigger problem.

[janmarsh]

Dave,  I remember an old mechanic friend talking about pinking.   Wikipedia more or less confirms what he explained to me.

Wiki uses the term "pockets" of fuel/air bringing it about when ignited.

 Glowing carbon deposits, sharp edges of newly ground valves,anything that could retain a combustible glow brings about pre-ignition....... a different thing to Pinking.

 A more complete combustion of each inlet charge of fuel should happen with added HHO. A less tendency for unburnt fuel pockets to occur.

 You can only imagine the enormous loading on  cylinder components if combustion comes about early during the compression stroke.

I can understand why Bob Lazar & others do not entertain using Hydrogen in diesel engines.  You are in not much of a position to determine the point of ignition with the diesels principle over the spark plug.   It has crossed my mind to reduce compression ratio if need be......  I then have to consider the possible problems just mentioned by you yourself.

                                                                     Marshall.

P.S.      Things also seem to be very quiet for Bob Lazar at the moment.   His Hydrogen section has had no update since February.

                                                                 http://www.switch2hydrogen.com/

[Manta]

I understand what you're saying. It was my rather loose wording that has caused the mix up. I should have used detonation and not pre-ignition to describe pinking. I do indeed remember the days when you could switch off a petrol engine and it would keep on running.  Usually indicating time for a de-coke.
The only way I can think of to play around with the timing on a Diesel (old type mechanical pump) is to keep incremently adjusting it. But that means loosening off all the pipes and bleeding out the air after every test.  Not much fun to be had there.
It is the added oxygen from the turbo that gives the turbo cars there increased power,  but at a somewhat reduced life expectancy. I suppose that a seperate injection systen for the hydroxy would work to get the same effect,  but as you would have a lot of modifications to do (different cam etc,  you may as well settle for a normal turbo diesel. Which, are useless when doodling around in the traffic.

I suppose you could lower the compression ratio, but you would lose power. A net lose.
I wonder what Bob Lazar has up his sleeve this time;  surely not just an arm.

Dave (Manta)

[Bob]

Its been my experience that Run-on after the ignition is turned off is usually due to Carbon deposits... and to be honest I haven't seen it sense the 1980's, today's fuels don't carbon up the cylinder head like they used to... heck your lucky to get any OIL at all in today's fuels! LOL
...
as far as the normal gas engine and running Hydroxy gas as a suppliment... it is possable to get Pre ignition or Ping-ing....and this is like hitting the piston with a sledge hanner every time it comes up... not a good thing at all... although I met a gal that had been driveing her car in a perpetual state of Pinging for a good 5 years in Reno,NV. and it was still going! hehehehe and she drove about 50 miles a day too and from work.  so I guess its not as "DEADLY" to the engine as we have been lead to believe.
...
If Pinging or Pre ignition rears its ugly head when using Hydroxy gas in your gas engine all you need to do is retard the timing a bit till it stops. and lock it down again.
...
but in a diesel the only thing you can do is alter the timing of the injection pump... but even there that is almost the same as changing the timing  in a gas engine because the detonation in a diesel engine then takes place at a different point in time.... so the problem should be solved by changing the pump timing.... though I have not tested that myself!
...
Bob........

 

[Gforce]

I have a 92 Ford Explorer and it would ping like anything on acceleration with HHO. Newer vehicles have knock sensors that retard the timing. I tried switching the SPOUT (which sets the advance to 11 degrees) but it was too much and performance suffered as well as mileage. I looked into trying to do something with the barometer as I live at sea level but the hose ran up under the dash some place.

[Bob]

well, its not PINKing its Pinging...but that's besides the point ! <grin>
I know Nothing about the ford explorer engine.... but feel that there Just has to be a way to adjust the timing... usually turning the distributor is all it takes... just a few degrees...will do it.
... it is however possible that that ford's ignition cannot be changed in any way without purchasing other chips for the computer and all that... which makes it impractical as all get out! (that's why ford did that after all!)
... evedently the Ford Explorer is set by the factory to be on the verge of pinging all the time to begin with.... adding Hydroxy gas just pushes it beyond that point into bad pinging on acceleration
get a Manual and check on how to ADJUST the TIMING on the ignition... simply retarding it 3 to 5 degrees should cure the problem entirely... the trick of this is to only retard the timing as much as it needs....if a mere 2 degrees retarding of the ignition cures the problem then that's good enough.
some engines take 12 degrees some only 2 degrees it just depends on the engine...
set the timing  in small increments,  and then test drive it... and see if the Pinging has gone away.
when you reach the point that it no longer pings, just leave it at that.

....
 Hydroxy gas it easier to ignite than gasoline... so it ignites first and then fires off the gasoline/air fuel  in the cylinder.  this gives the gas fuel mix a more complete burn... in theory .
but the ignition timing is critical to getting better gas mileage than you were 'before' adding the Hydroxy generator... if you just loosen the distributor and give it a good twist  to retard it , chances are you'll loose gas-mileage in the process...
so Only Retard the ignition as much as it takes to stop the pinging.
...
 My own experience with My Toyota pickup went from 22mpg to 32~40mpg  running my Hydroxy cells
but they kept getting dirty fast and I removed them before the first freeze last winter and haven't put them back on yet, as I am planning on going 100% hydroxy gas and No gasoline... and see if I can pull that off ! LOL !
....
Bob.......

hope that helps.

[Bob]

An easy way to set the timing, is like this...
start then engine and let it idle , pull off the vacuum line on the spark advance on the distributor, and plug the line with a sharpened stick.
 I use a timing light and mark the notch/mark on the pulley so it can be seen easily with white chalk
loosen the lock down nut on the distributors base, but don't take it off.  rotate the distributor slowly while observing the timing flash of the timing light... the mark on the pulley will move one way or the other. before or after TDC.( not necessarily in the order given... obviously!)
... if the cars speks call for 10degrees BTDC (before top dead center) then I would set it for 8degrees BTDC....  if it calls for 6degrees BTDC then I'ed set it to 4deg BTDC and try it.
some cars have settings for Zero degrees or TDC (top dead center) in which case I'ed set the timing to -2 degrees ATDC (After top dead center)...
on the pulley or what ever the timing marks are on , its a very small movement  usually about 1/8" to 1/4" at maximum... but it makes a big difference in the engines running!
...
Bob....