Are these figures correct ?

[Manta]

A couple of days ago I was pondering on the hydroxy thing,  And it dawned upon me to try approaching it from the other direction. So, good people (and also the not so good  ), let me know if you think the following is right or not.

Your riding along a reasonably level road on a single cylinder motor bike.  What size doesn't matter.

You know that your bike does 50 miles per gallon (Imperial = 4.54 Litre)  at 50 mile per hour and 2000 rpm.

Thus your burning 1 gallon per hour.

This equates to 4540/60 = 75.66 cc per minute.

So, as only half  these rpm are inlet strokes (it's a four-stroke) you are burning 4540 cc of fuel per hour for 60,000 inlet strokes.

So each stroke uses 75.66/1000 = 0.07566 cc.

Also,  if  the air:fuel mix is about 16:1 then you only use 0.07566 x 16 = 1.2096 cc of air per compression stroke.

Not much,  is it ?

If this reasoning is correct then we get down to the fact that this engine, on gasoline,  is using much less that one tenth of a litre per minute.(see the green highlighted bit above)



Please show me where I am wrong .

Manta

[Bob]

Um ok.... glad to see you thinking about it Manta... but I THINK there are a few points that need corrected....
 technically a 4 stroke engine intakes on 1 out of 2 rev's or 4 movements of the piston (hense the term 4 stroke.... let me explain....
  starting at the INTAKE stroke....  the piston goes down  and on its way back up its on compression stroke (that's 1 rev) it fires, forcing the piston down on the power stroke and comes back up on the exhaust stroke( that's 2 rev.) as the piston starts down again its on intake again so its completed its cycle in 2 revolutions....
that part you have correct!
...

75.66cc per minute is regardless of the intake strokes , that is taking the fuel consumption
over time, but we can figure out how many intake strokes per min uses that much fuel.
and that is the 60,000 strokes.
that much we agree on....
 from here on we have differing opinions, and here is why...
if we had 60,000 intakes and used 75.66cc's of fuel  then 75.66/60,000=0.001261 cc per stroke.
(I don't understand how or where you got 75.66/1000   ...(whats the 1000?)
so from that point the figures are borked, to determine the amount of air used at 16:1 its
0.001261 times16:1 (0.001261x16)=0.020176cc of air per stroke
to check my math  its .020176/.001261=16   which is correct.for the 16:1 ratio.
 which is 2 100ths of a cc of air per stroke and only 1 1000th of a cc of fuel or close to those figures....(rounding off that far looses much accuracy!)
 but you can see that its not NEARLY as much as one would first think
...
remember when your riding along at 2000rpm on a 350cc single and getting 50mpg (yes, I had a Honda 350cc single that did exactly that!(349cc)) the throttle is just over 1/4 open... and the engine isn't trying very hard at all at 2000rpm.
 it Can't be working very hard if its going to use only 75.66cc of fuel per minute !
how many cc's in an ounce ? an oz. I can relate to... cc's I can't  
 However I know that 16oz of gas will get that bike all the way home from the bus stop 1.9miles away and still have gasoline left ! LOL ! ( the float stuck and drained the tank I got a Pepsi bottle full of gas from the neighbor and road home... after smacking the float bowl a few times to get it un stuck! ...I never forgot to shut off the gas after that ! )
...
...
that's what I get doing it your way Manta... so what is the 1000 for in your figures ? maybe I'm all screwed up here
....
Using such a SMALL amount of fuel air each time it fires makes the small amount of Hydroxy gas we make that much MORE ! if we're injecting 2LPM into an engine that's well over 50% in some cases of the air it needs....
 but you never hear any of the people say that... its always "your putting in such a small amount of HHO as to not make a difference in the performance !"....
 but 50% is NOT a small amount when its practically free, and burns better than gasoline ! ....
now if you had 2LPM on that motorcycle you should be able to run it on 100% HHO CORRECT ?
....which I think is doubtful , but the numbers say it should work...<GRIN>
...
 How many CC's in a Liter ?
LOL





... Bob........

 

[Bob]

that's very interesting...
at 2000rpm I already know that the engine is not filling the cylinder full with fuel mix because of the throttle position ... but just a wiff of gasoline is all it takes to fire the cylinder... far less than a drop even !
 and if the fuel/air ratio is at 16:1 (which is mighty lean for an air cooled motorcycle) its easy to see that the engine is running in a state of Perpetual vacuum...  which proves my point earlier about small bangs run the engine not BIG bangs....
  and sense this is true then a small amount of HHO can really effect the engine's performance
and this goes right along with what we see in testing. more power , less throttle needed to cruse at the same speed that you used to do...
...
  But it makes me wonder what happens to the big guys , that put out 8LPM and run their truck at 2000rpm ? obviously the air volume is much bigger because the engine is bigger but as we saw above we are only making small bangs , not big ones, so the same things apply here
which means they are probably running 100% volume of HHO already and just dumping the gasoline through the engine needlessly...  could this actually be true ? ...it sure looks it!
...
weird!
...
Bob......

[Bob]

hehehe ok lets do that for a v8 then....
350cid that gets 20mpg at 2300 rpm at 60mph
....
at 60mph you have to go 20 miles to use 1 gal of gas.... 60mph is exactly 1 mile per minute
so following that 60/20=3 or 3 gallons to drive 60 miles  in 1 hr.
....
3x4540(cc's per gal)=13620cc total used/60min=227cc per minute used !
...
so now we need how many intake strokes over a 1 min period at 2300rpm
sense its a 4 cycle engine half of the number of RPM's is the amount of intake strokes
2300/2=1150 intake strokes in that 1 min period. ( i think I see where Manta got the 1000 now)
...
ok....1150/227cc=5.0660cc's per stroke  (that's fuel used)
...
and at a 14:1 air to gas ratio that's 5.06607929*14= 70.9251 cc's of air per stroke.

this is on a 350c.i.d. V8 engine at 2300rpm
....
 I did it this time without using the 60,000 intake strokes on the previous example
and I'm not sure if it will effect the outcome or not....
a v8 has 8cylinders all connected together, so its immaterial that it has more cylinders
because they are all 4 cycle ,so its rpm/2=intake strokes times 60 min=69,000 intake strokes
....
ugh my mind just turned to puddy  can't think ... must be time for bed....
more later ! HAHAHAHHAHHA
...
Bob.........

[Manta]

Bob,

A couple of quick notes,  I'll be back to discuss more later.

1000 cc to 1 litre

I don't know off-hand what gasoline weighs per litre,  so I'll have to check that.
Re,
...(I don't understand how or where you got 75.66/1000   ...(whats the 1000?)...

Remember that my engine is turning at 2000 rpm,  that's 1000 inlet strokes per minute.

I get the 75.66 from..

1 gallon (4.54 litre,  4540 cc) per hour/ 60 minutes  = fuel consumed per minute.

Just checked weight.  Gasoline weighs 6.15 pound /US Gallon.  I'll have to do the conversion to litres later.

It will probably be easier for me to just weigh some.

catch you soon.
Manta

[Bob]

OK well, to me the figures you used then are correct... I can't find any error in them. I'll double check again later just to be sure....
... ISN'T IT AMAZING ! such a small amount powers our vehicles around!
...
this is where Most of the Skeptics are totally wrong... they insist that the internal combustion engine guzzles huge amounts of gas and massive volumes of air while cruising... and the only time the engine gets anywhere NEAR their figures is at FULL THROTTLE... yet they don't understand that ! that is why to them its imposable for HHO to work.
if their volumes were correct they would be right... but their NOT !
...
  Now that we know how much volume we actually use at cruse speed... we can calculate how much HHO we NEED to make a big difference in the running engine.  I've said for a long time 1~2LPM per liter of engine displacement... but that figure now looks WAY WAY HIGH ! ...we'll see I suppose !
...
lets take my 2.4liter R22 toyota truck sense I know it best. (it got 22~24mpg before modifications)
(and over 40MPG with 2LPM of Hydroxy gas added)
the question is what kind of percentage of the total displacement is actually being used at cruse speed of 2000rpm and how much of that intake is HHO ?
 its going to be a larger percentage than I ever thought it would be!
...maybe that is why it gained speed doing down hill so easily ! LOL....I had to ride the brakes!
even with the throttle off ! it wanted to do 70mph ! HAHAHAHAHA

more later!


Bob.....

[Bob]

hummm...I've been going over my figures and found some errors the 69,000 intake strokes for instance... is not correct
...
for a 350cid V8 at 2300RPM cruising at 60mph and getting 20mpg.
...
the RPM of 2300/2 gives us the number of intake strokes but we need to multiply by the number of cylinders (....
so 2300/2=1150 , 1150x8=9200 intake strokes per min if we want per hour its that times 60min.
or 552,000 intake strokes per hour.

****what I am trying to figure out here is the Ratio of HHO to air volume per min ****

so I need to know the Air volume used per min of that 350 V8 at 2300rpm
so I have to work backwards, and make darn sure I am using apples with apples and oranges with oranges...and not mix them !
2300rpm *60min= rpm per hr.=138,000 rph /2=intake strokes per hr*8=552,000=intake strokes per hr.... /60=9200 intake strokes per min. (this jives with the above.)
...
finding the MPG per Min. is harder... at 60mph we travel 1 mile per min so in an hour we travel 60 miles at 20MPG that uses 3 gal of gas (60miles/20mpg)=3 gallons used in 1 hr.
3gal per hr/60 min= 0.05gal per min.
***
***oops found a screw up here ! I forgot to mutiply 4540*3gal to get total CC's***
***
Manta said that a Gal=4540cc or (4540*3)=13620cc's per hr.(13620/60)=277cc's per MINUTE
(not 75.6666)
so if we're working in Minutes now  we can take 9200 intake strokes per min.... and divide it by 277cc per min. and get  how much each intake stroke uses (9200/277)= 33.212996cc per intake stroke / by 8 cylinders(33.212996/8)=4.1516245cc per cyl. on intake stroke.
...( this seams right to me as its barely a squirt from a pump oil can!)
now for the air volume used....
 we know that a 14:1 air to fuel ratio is maintained as close as possible in the engine...
so (4.1516245*14)=58.122743cc's of air per cyl on intake stroke. when cruising at 60mph at 2300rpm.
so we have ....
4.1516245cc's of gasoline
58.122743cc's of air....
for a total volume of  62.2743cc's per cyl when fired.
...
if we have 2LPM of hydroxy gas pumping into the intake or 2000cc's per min.
we use 4.1516 cc' of gas,9200 intake strokes and 58.122743cc  air per stroke.
we have 58.122743*9200=534729.2356 cc's per min of intake air volume...
or (534729.2356/1000)=534.7292 Liters per min of Air coming into the engine.
...
so there we see it in black and white... almost 550liters of air per min coming into the engine .... we give it a mere 2LPM and we really need 55LPM to even reach 10%
that's why we need so much Volume output from out Hydroxy generators !
...
but keep in mind that is for a 350cid v8 engine a smaller engine means less volume and a bigger engine means More.
also realize that 10% of Hydroxy gas is probably enough HHO to run the engine on by itself because it is so Volatile a gas....this isn't proven yet, its just speculation... but its allot of HHO gas indeed at 55LPM it "should" run the v8 real easily !
...
I know from my research that Hydroxy gas will thin out some but not much and still explode when mixed with air, and if I remember correctly 10% was at the bottom end of the tolerances
when thinned out Hydroxy gas looses Much of its explosive power....it just reaches a point it will not explode anymore by itself. if Mixed with another component that burns it can be thinned way down well beyond 25% to 30%.... with air and still explode but with less and less power as it gets thinner..... obviously.

...
I'll calculate my pickup later ...my head hurts ! LOL
....
Bob........

P.S. I checked and re-checked this for errors and screw-ups... Manta (or anyone ) I'd appreciate double checking my Math and REASONING.... on what is needed for the calculations!
I am anything but a mathematician <grin> and on something this long its very easy to mess up
and one mistake will mess up everything ! 
 

[Bob]

EDITED !



OK... I've had a burning question about this very subject sense the beginning of my HHO experience.... and that is ...what would it take to power my truck on 100% Hydroxy gas !?!
...
and I think I can answer that question now.

... my 2.4liter R22FI Toyota truck Pickup (it got 22~24mpg before modifications)
(and over 40MPG with 2LPM of Hydroxy gas added)

I'll attempt to do the calculations AGAIN and see what I get.
at 60mph I got right around 23mpg
so...at a mile a minute(60mph) that's 60miles/23=2.60 gal of gas
at 60mph the engine is tacking 2200rpm/2=1100intake strokes per min.
now i need to convert that to hours because the gas used is in 1 hr.
so...1100*60min= 66000 intake strokes in an hour...
66000 intake strokes used 2.6 gallons of gas in an hour.******* having trouble with this bit**
(2.6/66000)=3.939393939393939394e-5 gal per intake stroke...3.939393939393939394e-5 *1000(to get cc's)=0.03939393939393939394 of gas per stroke....
 
following the 14:1 fuel air ratio that's (0.03939393939393939394*14)= 0.55151515151515151516cc's of air per stroke



Manta does this look right to you ?



Bob...

[Manta]

Bob,

Just adding a bit more to my earlier piece.

Just found that gasoline weighs 720 Kilo/cubic metre, Seems right as water weighs 1000 Kilo/  cubic metre. so that gives 720,000/(100 x 100 x 100) to get gramms/cc.  I get 0.720 gramm/cc.

Also is appears that gasoline gives 34.8 MegaJoules/  litre of energy. Which is 34.8 KiloJoules/cc .  From this I get that our hypothetical bike needs 34800 x 0.0756 = 2630.88 ( = 2.6309 KiloJoules) per stroke of energy to maintain it's 50 MPH - 50 MPG progress.

Now the question becomes, what is the energy content of hydroxy gas (in KiloJoules/Litre) ?  My logic is that it will need the same energy from the hydroxy as it does from the gasoline to attain the same end product.

I'm going to come back to you multi-cylinder engines in a bit,  but one thing to remember is that a very large amount of the air (78 %) that is pulled into,the engine is Nitrogen. Only 21 % is the Oxygen we need for combustion. So it would seem that in...almost 550liters of air per min coming into the engine ...,  only 21 % of this ( = 115.5 litre) is used in the actual combustion of the fuel.  The rest,  mostly nitrogen,  goes along for the ride.

Back soon.

Manta

Any one else able to help us out with this one ?  

[Manta]

Where did the smileys come from ?  Ignore them.

Manta

Re,

...****what I am trying to figure out here is the Ratio of HHO to air volume per min ****

so I need to know the Air volume used per min of that 350 V8 at 2300rpm...

Don't forget you are running on a partial throttle opening.  And that hydroxy brings it's own oxygen to the party.

Manta

Got rid of the spurious smileys.  They were caused by not leaving a space betreen the left-hand bracket and the 'equals' sign.

[Manta]

Bob,

Just applied the same logic to your 2.4 truck.  I get,  for 1 US gallon equal to 3.7854 Litre,


2.6 US gallon                  to do 60 mile in 1 hour at 2200 rpm

= 2.6 x 3.7854 litre           ------------"--------------------

= 9.842 litre                     -----------"--------------------

= 9,842  cc                     ------------"--------------------

= 9,842/60 = 164.033 cc   to do 1 mile at 2200 rpm

= 164.033/220 = 0.0754 cc per revolution of crank




This stacks up very well against my bike figures when you consider the different speed and rpm.

Now we only have to factor in the contribution from the hydroxy to account for the improvement.

Manta

[Manta]

If we use fuel used per crank revolution to define the consumption,  it removes having to calculate for the number of cylinders.  Should make things easier and is just as valid,  even allows for 2 strokes.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
 I wondered about your last when I was doing it.... something told me I was wrong in multiplying by the number of cylinders.... ...so that is where I screwed up and that is what made the per stroke so tiny
...
but I have to wonder, if by considering revolutions alone...we are actually making the V8 into 1 large single cylinder..... while in a V8 the intake strokes take place all the way around the revolution on different cylinders... and so does the power strokes, this is mainly what gives the V8 its high power output is its power strokes are distributed evenly throughout the revolution,
but sense we're not calculating power , just consumption, I can't see a problem with it... only a slight
amount will be lost at the beginning and end of the count time but I think that's acceptable for our calculations.
...
I know I have the Jules of energy for Hydroxy gas here somewhere... I will try to find it but don't hold your breath! LOL
...
And THANK YOU FOR THE HELP.... this is at the edge of my brain power ! LOL
...
Bob...

[Bob]

 OK
so if my R22 Toyota pickup uses 0.0754 cc per revolution of crank. that is 7 0ne hundredths of a cc !
.... WOW... that ain't much!
...so the air intake would be 14*0.0754= 1.0556 cc's....
and a total volume per cylinder of 1.131 cc's when that cylinder is fired.
hardly seams like enough to push the piston down Uh ! but a gas/air mix  expands at 1200 times when ignited...giving a VOLUME of 1357.2cc's which is more than the volume of the cylinder which is what it should be, to force the piston down.
 to me these figures look right.
I'll edit my other posts to try ands make them correct ....UGH!
...

Bob.....

[Manta]

Bob,

Don't edit the posts.  I for one prefer to leave all the reasoning,  even the faulty reasoning as it was posted. I never liked the idea of history being re-written.

I do,  of course,  edit my typos.

Manta