something different.

[Manta]

So there I was,  lounging in the bath and contemplating the meaning of the universe etc (try doing that in a shower;  not the same) when I got round to thinking about the combustion process.
80& of the air that we and our engines breath is nitrogen.  Nitrogen doesn't burn,  it's is just in the way really. We are only interested in the remaining 19% or so of Oxygen. Yet we have to draw in all that nitrogen just to get at the oxygen because that is how or engines have always worked. But with hydroxy,  do we need this ? No,  what we need is a different kind of engine.
Mind wanders on to different engines.  Water is getting cold. To Hell with the expence;  adds more hot water to the bath.
So, how does the four-stroke work.  Sucks in air/fuel (carb' engin here), piston rises compressing mix, fires,  piston going down.  piston coming up pushes the old gas out.  Easy.

But if we were to get rid of the Nitrogen then we wouldn't need to draw in all that air. So we need to get only oxygen (or hydroxy) into cylinder. Yet can't be pulling a vacuum in the cylinder. (I have an idea on that).
Do we really need the compression stroke with our new fuel ? no sure yet.
If not, make it a two stroke cycle. But we need the normal lubrication etc, (But no crankcase compression) so keep most of the four stroke design,  just change a few things.

Add hydroxy via a separate  route.  Do away with the normal inlet manifold/carb assembly.

Maybe,  just maybe.

Your comments please.

Manta

[candyman55]

Maybe after tonights bath  , it'll come to ya. 

[Bob]

if you don't need the compression stroke then you can trade the piston for a fan...
then you have a turbine engine it compresses the fuel some and then expells the exhost turning the fans... yes I think Hydroxy gas will do that for you easily enough but at a greater fuel consumption
... where we are having truble getting enough hydroxy gas as it is now !
...
why re invent the wheel ? the conventional 4 stroke and 2 stroke engines should do the job with very little modification... its not the engine design thats all wrong its the assessories on the engine
that are the problem... throw away the fuel injection, the intake all the exhost garbage and put a stright pipe on it.... inject hydroxy gas by each intake valve....
...the problem with the engines of today is that they complicated the heck out of them for no real reason...the 1953 v8 stock puts out more hp than the v8 of today... given the same size displacement
and USEING the same HP calculations... ( thats the key)  other wize the 1953v8 put out something like 190hp tops... compaired to the 300hp of today... but they changed how they calculate hP because of the low numbers! <GRIN>
in some cases the fuel injection has been an improvement but for the most part all the improvements in the last 50 years have been useless... they cost hp and echonemy not give it.
the younger guys on the forum will doubt this , but if you get a chance to ride in a Old Old car please do.... their better than you think !
...
many things can be done to make our engines run more effeciently includeing adding Hydroxy gas.
...
Bob...

[Manta]

Bob,

I get your points,  particularly about the older cars. If I can get the supplementory hydroxy system to work then it will go in my 1984 Opel Manta. Twin choke carb,  no injectors or gas sensors in sight. (lots of rust though)
I wasn't thinking of reinventing the wheel,  more like making a better wheel that doesn't need to move all that Nitrogen around.
The turbine is still moving Nitrogen about and still needs a rotory compressor.
If it works then I'll buy you all a beer.  Hell,  make that two beers.

Manta

[Cowboy]

I think you're onto something worth while Manta.  I don't know how you'd go about turning a sbc 350 into a 2 stroke, but the idea is sound.  Probably the best way to test the theory is on a chainsaw or weedeater.  Make it a closed air system and see how well she works.  Throttle control will be the only issue needing resolving for that test, but that can be done with the choke instead of the trigger.

[Manta]

Cowboy,

I reckon it would have to be a completely different engine.  I can't envisage retro-fits.

There needs to be some way of injecting the hydroxy into the cylinder just as the piston gets to tdc. Say some sort of secondary cylinder that is already charged with enough hydroxy and blasts it into the cylinder. And it needs to be recharged every revolution.  Remember,  no carb' or any other route for outside air (with all that nitrogen) to get in. So were only burning hydroxy (idealy).   It has to be fed only from the hydroxy cell(s). Maybe a twin cylinder arrangement. one for the power and one for the gas pumping.

 Worry about control later.
Manta   

[randy]

I thought about trying that with a small 2 stroke boat motor, just the thought of that crankcase being charged with pressurized hydroxy scared me off that idea, that's a lot of shrapnel for a grenade. hahahahaha

[Bob]

Well On Dan wells' site under his Tero cell plans in his Rambleings about WHY you cannot expect to run an engine soly on Hydroxy gas ( HAHAHHA)  he tried an experiment that ran a 5hp engine for some time
on Hydroxy gas alone... but due to his disbelief he missed the obvious outcome of that test.
Hydroxy gas I thought Had to be completely seperated from outside air, but it doesn't
I read where the Hydroxy gas has just enough Hydrogen and Oxigen to explode and any delution will Kill it completely.... but that is not true at all !
Hydroxy gas can be leaned out a fair ways and still explode... so there is no need to keep outside air out of the system....
 At first I thought removeing the carb was the way to go and run the engine under a High vacume
Not filling the cylinders by any means , just giveing them enough Hydroxy gas to make the wxplosion turn the engine over... if you want more power sure you add more gas but you don't have to fill the cylinders completely... that idea is plane silly ! only a small portion is needed to run an engine.
at full power wide open giveing it everything you possably can you probly only would achieve filling the cylinder maybe 1/2 way at the Very most.
... but removeing the carb and putting a plate on the intake manifold with a Hose to the hydroxy generator would indeed run the engine... but its easier and more echnomical if you allow some air into the engine, less Hydroxy gas is then needed , the addition of air will strech the hydroxy gas much further and give you more echnomey ... more bang for your buck...
 so putting a plate over the intake manifold and pumping in Hydroxy gas is not the only way to run an engine on Hydroxy gas, in fact it would seam to be less effecient than useing the exhisting carberator as your injection point. ... although you'ed probly want LESS air going into the engine than with gasoline, so a smaller carberator would be perfect for the job...
My 1968 350 Dodge V8 out there has a 2bbl carb on it and its perfect for this idea
from a pressurized tank takeing the hydroxy gas to the base of the carb and injecting the hydroxy gas there, useing the butterfly's of the carb to vari the air intake and a ball valve to the hydroxy gas supply  it should be very simple to sincronise the normal throttle position with the opening of the ball valve, and have it run just fine useing Hydroxy gas alone.... if enough Hydroxy gas is available...... that is the only show-stopper at the moment !
I need a large produceing cell or bunch of little ones to feed a big V8 ! for 100% hydroxy gas I am guessing at 4 to 5LPM per liter of engine displacement but that should run it fine. (I think)
...
what I plan on doing is hooking the Hydroxy cells under the hood ( there is tons of room in there)
and run a pressure tank setup probly only a gallon or so and have the pressure switch control the
relay to turn on cell production....the tank will ofcorse have to have a POP off cap or a Explosive pressure releaseing mechnisum on it... a bubbler before and after it and a easy to rotate ball valve
of which I have never seen yet !!!!!!!! because the throttle cannot be hard to push down or cannot be a overly long stroke... but I think I can "jerry rig" something up that will work.
...
with a constant supply going into a small pressure tank at a constant pressure it should be very easy to get the engine to run satisfactory on the gas....
...
  the only hard part is getting that much VOLUME of Hydroxy gas !
Bob Boyce cracked that nut with his Hydroxy cells and could produce over 54LPM with his 101 plate "Super-cell"... but it took some doing... a 12VDC to 220vac inverter to run the cell and a PMW of his own design to handle it all...
...
I'm not into building something as Outlandish as all that myself and I think 101plates would bankrupt me....again !   but there are other ways to accomplish the same thing...
...
for One I don't need 54LPM... 15LPM should do it nicely
15LPM is infinately easier to come up with than 54LPM <GRIN>
but it still takes a great deal of AMPRAGE !
...I am Hopeing I can reach 15LPM on 200 amps but I dunno...
...
2LPM at 20 amps = 20LPM at 200amps...Logically thinking, and that sounds easy...
but every time you try to do that you wind up with something like 4LPM at 60amps
or 5LPM at 75 amps... and that is not following the same pattern at all !
... its as if the Demand for OUTPUT VOLUME on the amperage is exponential instead of linear...
if thats the case we will have to re-think the entire system !
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Randy,
That's why I passed on the idea of a crancase compression 2 stroke .

Bob,
I would expect that putting a plate across the top of the carb (or removing the carb and puting the plate directly on the manifold then piping straight to the cell would cause the cell to collapse due to the massive vacuum you would create. Or it would suck all the water down into the engine. Very bad news.

Lots of things to consider.

The LtCFisher cell looked promising.

Manta

[Bob]

Actually the amount of vacume you can create is limited to arround -24PSI... you cannot create a larger vacume in the engine than that as the very air comes appart at that vacume
...thats is why I was trying to explain that you can close off the intake manifold and run the engine on a small Puff of Hydroxy gas per cylinder and have no problems... this obviously works or the conventional engine would not run as it des the same thing except that it uses gasoline air mix instead of hydroxy gas.... unknown to most people the regular engine is running under atmospheric pressure at all times... another words its running in a state of vacume   on the intake side, and a above atmospheric pressure on the exhost side...
...
I have tried to explain this a few times but most people do not understand that the IC engine doesn't have to have air comeing into it to work.... its just easier for it if it does !
...
think about it... a 5hp briggs and stratton is setting on the bench with a Plate over the intake completely sealed.... what will happen if you turn the engine over..... NOTHING ! because there is no fuel  ... at first you tink the engine can't possable even turn over but it can easily its not even very hard to turn over.... you have about the same resistance as the engine normially is  in good working order... I know this as I blocked off the intake  port a few times while playing with carb designs... its not going to lock up the motor just because air cannot get in the intake port !
... what happens is the air in the cylinder acts like a spring.... the vacume tries to keep the piston from moveing but it moves anyway so the piston is being pulled up on by the vacume ...
once you pass bottom dead center the crank will alow the piston to go back up so it snaps back up there... so its only hard to turn 1/2 the revolution
....
I did his one time ... I had an old lawn mower engine with pipe thred intake and exhost ports...
I plugged the intake witha 1/2"or 3/4" nipple and end cap....   I drilled a 1/16"hole in the end cap and squirted gasoline in and turned it over with my thumb over the 1/16" hole... after many tries I desided it was not going to run , even useing quick start.... but it wasn't because of the engine not able to run that way its because of the fuel... there was no OXIGEN in the cylinder to alow it to run....
 at best all I could get was the occasional pop out of the thing...
at the time I was trying to figure out a better carberator, my theory was proved wrong and I gave up on it and put the regular carb manifold back on  and got the engine working again...
but it was the LACK of air is why the engine would not run... but HYDROXY gas does not need air at all it will explode just fine all by itsself.... if I'ed have had a 1/4" air line pumping hydroxy gas into that blocked off intake  it would have ran just fine ! of that I am positive...
...many experiments have been done on gas engines trying to get them to run and they all end up wih the Choke completely closed in order to get it to run,  Dan Wells experiment followed the same path
and ended in the wrong conclusion,....you need Tons of Hydroxy gas to run a engine.. when He had a balloon full of hydroxy gas there in front of him and that ran the engine for a short period of time....
Ok almost all tests done so far have discovered that an internal combustion works just fine on 100% hydroxy gas or even a mixture of hydroxy gas and some air... but no where near the amount gasoline  needs... about 1/4 that or even less...
...
so its not a question of Can an engine run on it, the answer to that is definately a YES!
the question then becomes which way is better? and that reamains to be proven !

Bob......