you can't get out more than what you put in !

[Bob]

this is a law of Physics "you cannot get out more than you put in"
so if you consider the Alternator making the electricity to make the HHO this is a very TRUE statement!
you cannot run your car on the little amount of gas you get out of your HHO generator...(obviously)
and if it takes 8hp to make the electricity you'd be real lucky to get 4HP back in burning the HHO
..... so whats the Point ?
 
the Point is by adding a small amount of HHO to the air your engine sucks up simply improves the gas milage ...I personally went from 21~22mpg to 40~45mpg by adding 2LPM of HHO to the intake air on my 2.5Liter Toyota R22 pickup....
  I personally could not care Less if the obtaining of the HHO gas is "NOT EFFICIENT" as long as my gas mileage is improved.... and it is !
....
 Too many times I have read that Learned men say "you cannot get enough gas out of the electroliziation process to make it pay for the electricity it uses !"  
they say this because of the laws of Physics !  but they are missing the point entirely !
...we are not trying to make a "perpetual Motion engine" here, we're just trying to improve the gasoline mileage
 and by adding a small amount of  Very high explosive gas to the combustion chamber we can do that !
.. its NOT rocket science, its not "Perpetual motion", its just common sense... burn the gasoline up more completely and you get more use out of it !.... that's ALL that is going on here !
...
You will however not improve your mileage if you do not cut back on your gasoline richness simply  because it will dump in the same amount of fuel weather it needs it or not...
running HHO allows you to lean out the mixture without any problems (up to a certain point)
...
can you get an improved gas mileage without HHO ?...
   YES just by leaning out the engine...
is it dangerous for your cars engine to lean out the gas,...
   YES, and adding HHO does NOT change that fact!
 the typical car today can be leaned out a great deal with no ill effects, trucks especially
unless your getting 25 to 30MPG now the engine is already running too rich by design !
change that design and you'll get better gas mileage, but do it carefully and know what you are doing or you can destroy your engine...
 ... HHO is a way to recapture some of the waste energy of the engine and make it back into a burnable fuel... its not the answer to the global melt down and sky high gasoline prices but every little bit helps.... I'd rather have 45mpg out of my little truck than 22mpg and HHO is the difference
believe it or not , its your choice!
Bob......

 

 

[Tink]

Bob,

Well said, period.

I'm finding this same scenario with wind power. Wind turbines are very inefficient but the wind is free!

Gasoline engines are extremely inefficient but gas isn't free!!

Tink

[Bob]

What gets me is all these learned men, that can't see the forest for all the trees in the way !
...
the link that Bob Lazar gave was nothing but how it can't possibly work.... yet it does... how do they explain that ? they don't they deny that it works at all and leave it at that ! that is NO answer !
and is a bad reflection upon them !
...
 when you can get a bit of FUEL for free from the waste energy of your car  how can you Loose ?
...
according to the EXPERTS they are saying that I can NEVER make enough Hydroxy gas to power my truck at 100% hydroxy gas... using no gasoline at all... and any school kid can do the math and prove them wrong
  my calculations may indeed be short on the needed Hydroxy gas to power my truck I say 15LPM is all I need.... but even if i need double that (30LPM) I can still accomplish it and the engine isn't going to run out of power turning the alternators either... there is over 120hp there  and it is more than enough to power 3 100amp alternators to achieve the 10:1 ratio of ten amps to 1 LPM
at the most each alternator will need 10 to 15hp under full load...
so yes it will be ROBBING allot of Horsepower from the engine and the truck will act underpowered... but it will run and will drive on no gasoline at all and only cost for the up-keep of the cells once its finished...driving forever for a low maintenance fee is cheep compared to gasoline!.
...
...this may indeed be an exception to the rule of Physics,  I don't know, I just know what the numbers tell me.... and numbers don't lie, only people do ! <GRIN> the trick is to take in ALL the variables....
and I believe I have.
...
Bob......

[Bob]

Lets not Kid ourselves here, what I'm talking about in running my truck on 100% hydroxy gas is what the experts term as OVER UNITY.... in other words I am getting more energy out,.. than the electricity used.... and this is simply IMPOSSABLE according to Physics ...it can't be done!
but lets look further at it than just that, and not throw up our hands and give up as the EXPERTS will do...
...
 now lets take FACTS here as much as possable and try to keep away from the educated guesses ...
we Know that we can get 2LPM from a Hydroxy cell at 20 amps...( I made 3 such Randy cells and they ALL tested out the same 2LPM at 20 amps)
 That is where the Golden Ratio comes from  the 10amps per 1LPM HHO output and that is very well documented and can be achieved from many different types of cells , not just the Randy cell.
...
the standard Alternator on my truck is a 65 amp alternator it takes approximately 40~50amps to run the truck with all the electrics on... so I need a reserve of at least 50 amps just to run the truck, much less without all the electrics on, like day time and heater off.
... I know from my research that a 300amp alternator takes a good 15hp to a MAX of 20HP (not the 100amp as I previously posted, that one only takes 8hp to 10hp)
...
I KNOW from the correspondence with a friend of mine that 8~12LPM ran his truck down the block and  back, albeit really lousy... it did run it down and back on 100% hydroxy gas... it was just no where enough for that huge engine in his truck....BUT for a small engine like the one in my pickup it should be enough to make it to half throttle at least !.
...
My figures show me that 15LPM will run my truck on 100% hydroxy gas...( its a smaller engine  4cyl 2.4liter Toyota R22-FI)... never mind how I came up with those figures, many people tell me that they are far short of what I will actually need... if that's the case i will just add MORE Hydroxy gas untill I achieve 100% ... 
...
 Now can my truck make 15LPM ?
lets say 16LPM as its divided easy by 2LPM and one cell will do that... so I need 8 cells to make that much Hydroxy gas.... EACH drawing 20 amps which is 160amps total...
so if i replace my alternator with a 200 or 250amp alternator  or even a 300amp alternator I will have more than enough to power the 8 cells and run the pickup as well....
BUT can my little truck turn such a big alternator ? Get real of course it can ! LOL!
(at a max of 20hp LOAD... my truck will barely know the bigger alternator is even connected to it !)
...
so...
there we have it.... the IMPOSABLE according to Physics... 
and it all depends on weather or not 15LPM will power my truck or not....but as I said before
even if I have to DOUBLE the LPM output and get 30LPM instead of 15LPM the principal still holds true
...run 2 alternators 16 cells and never touch a gas pump again.
so what if the truck starts to get sluggish at acceleration ? its free ! who cares if its fast or not!
....
why is that Imposable ?
30LPM is enough HHO to run a large V8.... I know without a doubt I don't need that much!
...
the problem that others encounter with the Logic here is that they do not understand the workings of an engine... its not just that its a 4 stroke and that it has pistons and they go up and down, and valves that open etc,etc. but how the engine itself puts all that together and makes it work, how the engine breathes, the inhale and exhale  of the living machine... because its that portion that breaks the understanding of most people towards this concept.
 the engine doesn't need to Fill the cylinders with fuel air each time the piston goes down on the intake stroke.... it only does that at FULL THROTTLE.... the rest of the time that intake stroke only gets a small puff of fuel/air mix... and the resulting explosion is Small, in comparison to a full throttle explosion
...
now with that understanding you can see that it doesn't take that much fuel to run an engine at a slow speed.
its at 1/2 throttle and above that you will need massive quantities of fuel/air mix to run the engine
...but I don't run past 1/2 throttle even when shifting the trans.... I don't need for the engine to be able to run at FULL THROTTLE.... so I am not going to design my system to supply that much fuel when I don't need it !
....
think about it if you have doubts....then ask your questions, I'll help all I can...understanding is 3/4 of the battle the rest is just the motions ! HAHAHAHA
...
Bob..........

[Manta]

Bob,

...I know from my research that a 300amp alternator takes a good 15 hp to a MAX of 20HP (not the 100amp as I previously posted, that one only takes 8hp to 10hp)...

300 x 12 = 3600 Watt

As 1 HP = 750 Watt then

3600/750 = 4.8 HP

Not 15 HP

Which looks better than you stated.  But I still don't believe an engine can feed itself .

Manta

[crb]

Bob, You need to get back to your running your B&S engine.
crb

[ROADKING]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLngerzzSBI
Check this out he is showing you can get something for nothing.  I am thinking of falling for this. I have some where, where they offer to sell the plans for this at about $50.00, and they claim that it cost less than $200 to build it to run your entire house?

[Bob]

Manta:
 thank you for that... there is also slippage in the v belt and resistance to turning of the berrings and such like.... altenators are hard to turn when their loaded down.... so the turning is not free... that's my point.   taking less hp to turn an Altenator  is much better , but I was going by the stats of what the altenator site told me.... they recomended 2 v belts for the 300 amp altenator to combat ware and tear on the v-belts...so its a bunch more than 5hp in reality while in use...
...
I just got watching some of the You tube videos on "FREE ENERGY" and one guy made an odd electric motor and was calling it free energy... while another guy used a pump to spin a water wheel to turn a generator to power the pump..... and oddly enough it seamed to work ! he didn't leave it run very long though...which makes me wonder.
...
motors abound  in every shape and configuration, some run off of sunlight some off of heat like the sterling engine.... if you were to put a sterling engine over a Hot spring in Yellowstone you'd have Perpetual motion as long as the hot spring stays hot.... but that is the same thing as saying its ok to use a fuel.... it defeats the purpose of the perpetual engine.
motion without using a fuel or while replacing the fuel used is what its all about. the fella with a pump powered by the water wheel driving the generator has the right idea... there was excess energy there because it lit a lightbulb too....
....
so the idea is NOT impossible it is just very dificult to obtain and the amount of extra energy you will get out is very small....
 following that thinking Manta is correct in his view...if it does work on my truck it will be lucky to move itself.... just because of the consistancy of the laws of the conservation of energy...
... but figures don't lie.... I guess we shall see if I can ever get back to it ! LOL
...
Bob...
and I agree CRB  i do need to get back to that B&S....LOL
...
 

[Bob]

Roadking:
 Its Possible... he said that it puts out 5 times more power than it consumes.... and that it is a breakthrough.... INDEED ! it would be a break through !
...
 it looks to be a electric motor combined with a magnetic motor and in that configuration if everything is done right I think it can be accomplished...because of the parts used...
now weather he has actually done it or not remains to be seen... a few people have already calmed to have done the same thing but as of yet no one has gone into production and sold them, and at $5000.00
it would be a bargain...so you'll never buy it for that , when the bean counters get a hold of it the price will double ! ... so if you can get the plans,... go for it ! but you'll need a lathe and probably a milling machine to make it, rest assured on that!
....
but I am GULLIBLE ! I always have been, because I can imagen how things can work when Physics say it can't.... and Physics says what this guy has calmed to accomplish it totally imposable.... but they also calmed that the bumble bee couldn't fly either... so I personally believe the laws of Physics are there to be broken and that none of them are written in stone and imposable to get by.
...
My 2 cents worth ! <GRIN>
(...if ya do get the plans, please keep us informed!)

Bob.......

[Bob]

You know....its Kind'a Funny because the Scientific community building things like the Tokomac , or CERN
and other projects like that the massive lasers used to fire at a small pellet of hydrogen in an attempt to make it go into a thermal runaway of fusion reaction.... the whole idea is to generate Millions of times the power needed to start the process in the first place.... in other words they are trying to get more out than they put in.... but when they do it it's scientific research, when we try it we are chastised as idiots and told we can't do it because its against the laws of Physics!
...maybe some one should tell them its imposable too ?
...
this type of Exceptionisum is rampant in our society, from aviation to mechanics to electronics and even carpentry.... not to mention politics.<GRIN>
 its the "its ok for me to do it but you can't" syndrome!
this type of thinking has to be stopped if we are ever to get out of the stone ages !
 in the 1970's the "Live and Let Live" era of the Hippies was correct... but our society absorbed all that and is no better off than it was in the 1950's with the Macho tough-guy and the timid housewife
sure... we have came a long way in the last 50 years but its not far enough for me ! I'd love to see people actually THINK before they REACT..... using your head is a good thing LOL
...
the search for free energy and the perpetual engine will go on as long as humans can think on their own, but the more we tell them "its imposable you idiot , can't you see that ?" the more they will recoil and think of other things.... we as a society are Killing our own progress by being so negative.
...instruction is good, don't get me wrong, and instruction can come in many forms, but "instruction does not Kill the spirit, it guides it." and we ALL need guidance ...well everyone but Tink ! <GRIN>
...
 I used to use the word Imposable all the time when I was growing up but my Mom broke me of that by explaining WHY it wasn't imposable.... and I thank her for it, because now, Nothing is Imposable !
if a law of Physics says something can't be done, that just means you have to be smarter than the guy that made up that law and figure out a way around it !
....
 for instance... I Know fuel vaporization works and can increase fuel mileage by the hundreds of miles per gallon.... because I have seen it work on a few occasions, I don't know how to do it yet but I'm working on it... yet the car companies and Congress agree that you cannot under any circumstances get more than 50MPG from the standard car....its imposable..!
... the Chief editor of Popular science magazine has tried to Prove to the American people that these HHO gimmicks do not work, they cannot work and this is why... and he goes on with endless half truths
and never takes anyone up on seeing a working unit that actually does give a increase in MPG... simply because he is convinced he is right. its totally imposable to him.
...
so when you hear "its Imposable!" think of my Mother and think to yourself how it COULD be possible!
because She was right the Imposable only takes a little bit longer ! and the Imposable is only a little bit harder.
....
Bob......

 

[Bob]

Sorry about that people ... back to the subject at hand. <GRIN>
...
Physics says you cannot get more energy out than you put into something.... in what ever form
but this is not true in all cases, like when you make a fuel or make a substance and then mix it with another, you can have a net gain over the original energy used by many times
...
think of the Hydroxy generator, pulling its 20 amps soaking up pressious horsepower through the alternator in the form amps.... 5hp isn't that much to a car engine but it is something.
...
 Physicists would say that your gain by adding that small amount of HHO gas into the intake is so small as to not equal the amount of HP it takes to pull the alternator load... and that it has to be that way because of the laws of Physics....   their wrong!
  Their wrong because they are not looking at the whole picture.  if that was all that goes on in the situation they would be correct...but they are forgetting the large gain in gasoline mileage
what actually happens is you are getting well over your energy spent by SAVING energy
... look at it this way...
on a 100 mile trip i used 4.5 gallons of gas before the Added Hydroxy generator and modifications
on the same 100mile trip again i used 2.38 gallons of gas.
that is a savings of 2.16 gallons of fuel
Now I don't pretend to know how to convert gasoline into energy but you know there is allot of energy in a gallon of gas... and I saved over 2 gallons
that 2 gallons of gasoline has never been taken into consideration in the skeptics rantings, you may use some hp to make the HHO gas but its WASTE to you in the first place.... the alternator is charging anyway so why not make use of it.... at the most you'd use a fraction of a HP at 20 amps because its already charging anyway. ... so now that your Usage of energy is down to earth... now look how much energy you got back ! ...  you got back way more energy in that 2 gallons than you used making the HHO in the first place.
...
so in reality you are getting back more than what you put in. you just have to look at the whole picture.
...
now if someone wants to crunch the numbers I'd love to see them...
but this is how I understand it works...
...
Mind you ,I did get double my original MPG, and not everyone does. and the numbers of weather its worth it or not may be different for you than me !
keep that in mind!
...
Bob......

[Lee Hazleton]

Geez, Bob. I haven't been here in the past week (really freakin' busy) & I just read all of your recent rants.
Someone piss on your back & tell ya it's raining?

[Bob]

LOL Well No not really ! just tired of hearing its IMPOSABLE from people that should be smart enough to know better is all ! LOL
...
and I figured I'ed place a COUNTER to all the PROOF that HHO don't work... when I know for a fact that it does.... people hear that shit from others with titles and believe it for some reason... i never have figured that out.... I could care less that a person has a Title ,a title means nothing to me.
it definately is not a measure of your inteligance...just the money you spent on schooling!
I have seen more Old farts with years of experience in the field with more smarts than people with 3 PHD's.... yet many of us believe that if so and so says it don't work then it don't!
....
its unreal !....
and no its not raining here ! <GRIN>
good to hear from ya Lee even if its just to give me a bad time HAHAHAHHA!
...
Bob........

[Lee Hazleton]

Bob,
   Givin' you a hard time is just part of my job
As far as morons saying that hho is 'impossible', just read your own signature!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Bob]

LOL
 Lee... I hope your new cell is working out for ya, have you used it on your truck yet ?
...
Bob.......

[Tink]

Bob,
I hope I'm not the one you are referring to about that 'impossible stuff'. If I am I think you don't understand me. I'm truly sorry if I offended you in any way. I bet I believe in the impossible even more than you do. I am impressed with Bob Lazar simply because he has the means and where-with-all to accomplish something I can't. My hat is off to him if he can do his thing in a big commercial way. Isn't it all about this nation getting away from our dependence on oil and letting the little guy get away from the stronghold the politicians and corporations have over us? If he can help that cause along in any way that is a great thing. We at the grass roots level can't do it all. Yea, I think every inverter should freely share their ideas with the world but that is not the world we live in. Patent and copyright laws are just a tool for the people with most of the money to get more money and make slaves out of the rest of us.

Really Bob, I think you are over-reacting on this one.

I was in China and saw a re-construction of an ancient water wheel that actually pumped water up hill. It wasted more water than it delivered, but it worked and the wasted water went back to the source. To me a perpetual motion machine is one you can start and never have to turn off no mater if there is no more water or wind or sunlight. I'm still a believer in HHO but if I find something better I'm going for it.

Your friend and co-hort.
Tink

[Manta]

Tink,

...Yea, I think every inverter should freely share their ideas with the world...

I don't run a battery/inverter set up myself. But next time I see one I'll question it closely on it's latest brainwave.


Bob,
..the whole idea is to generate Millions of times the power needed to start the process in the first place.... in other words they are trying to get more out than they put in.... but when they do it it's scientific research, when we try it we are chastised as idiots and told we can't do it because its against the laws of Physics!..

Not quite.  The energy is in the fuel they have to feed in once the fusion reaction starts. It takes Mega Watts to initiate, then the same to produce power,  but the energy loss of the atoms in the fuel is greater than the energy needed to sustain the reaction.

Manta  

[Bob]

Tink !
 No,no,no ! not you buddy,  its like the editor of Popular science... not even Bob Lazar.. as although he thinks HHO is a scam he only tells you if you ask ! LOL its other Smart guys that don't think it through ... they just blindly rely on the law of Physics ...and to me that is silly !
...
 Manta:
 I have an inverter on the shelf in the shed, and I used to talk to it constantly, but lately its been ignoring me, it simply clammed up, I think its plotting against me for some reason... I noticed all the hammers in one pile and all the Philips screw drivers in another pile, and other such odd things but I am not sure whats going on.... call me paranoid if ya want, but I am cautious when I walk into the shed now !.... take it from me you don't want to get on the bad side of your Inverter!
so if it takes "Polite conversation" or talking to your Inverter in a certain way you'd best do that
or you might wind up cat wrapped in bed and wake up with an anvil dangling over your head and hear an inverter snickering off in the distance !
... its no laughing matter at all !
...
LOL
(relax Tink we know what ya meant we're just Hurrassing ya !! hehehehehehe)

as far as over-reacting goes... Who ME ? Never I never over react ! I couldn't over react if I had to , its against my Nature to OVER REACT ! I MEAN ...IF I WERE TO OVER REACT IT WOULD BE THE FIRST TIME IN MY LIFE ! , I've Never done such a Hidious thing as "over react" it goes against my very nature,every fiber of my being.... umm yah your right...I'm over reacting again ! LOL
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA
hehehehe
...
...
yah I know what ya mean Tink, Bob Lazar has the right to try and make some proffet on it, he'd be silly not to I guess... I just wish I had the means at my disposal to do what he has done....its brilliant ! to drive a car on pure Hydrogen and do it safely... its realy a KOOL move
...
so lets get our heads togather and figure out how he did it !
HAHAHAH
...
Bob.......

 

[Tink]

OK,

I get the 'inverter' thing. And I accept everyone's appology. Hay, there has to be some comic relief, I'm going to stop using that spell checker.

Tink

[Bob]

LOL TINK !  HAHAHAHAHAH
...
Bob

[randy]

Yeah I think there's a carnival ride called the inverter, it flips ya upside down emptying yer pockets, musta been invented by the government.

[Bob]

probably the IRS Randy !....HAHAHAHA
...
Bob.....

[Tink]

Very Funny guys....

Now I gotta go out in the cold and swap out the engine on the wood splitter. We got 20 years of use out of it since I loaned it out to 5 different friends every winter over a 4 year period....guess I can't complain. They paid for the new engine too.

Tink

[Bob]

Hang in there Tink !
did you ever figure out what was wrong with your wind generator ?
a coil burned up didn't it ? can ya make one coil and replace it ?
or do you have to pour the reson over a bunch of them all at once ? ( whatt'a pain!)
...get out the screw driver and hammer and do it yourself !
....
Bob....

[Tink]

Well it turned out to be a short in the stator or maby a few shorts. I took it all apart and still could see no signs of a burn out. No rubbing and no discoloration. there was a bare wire at the surface of the resin. And a few spots that looked dubious to me so I sent the stator back for repair or they may make me a new one. They said they have only had 2 cases like this in the past 2 years that they have been making this bigger and more powerful stator for the 10' turbine. They took delivery of it last Friday and I should have a new or repaired stator in a few days. Meanwhile I missed out on another big wind storm where I could have fully tested it to see if it will furl at 28mph and if the hit sink (massive 10"x7"x2") is big enough for the 100amp rectifier.
Good luck with that gasifier,
Tink

[Bob]

HEHEHE you really want to see if that heat sink will work don't ya <GRIN> I don't blame ya one bit ! ...Cheer up Tink there will be more wind for that I am sure!
...
I'm glad it won't take them that long to get the new part to ya...
strange that you got one of the Bad  ones... hehehe sounds like "MY LUCK" !
.... but hopefully once you install the new stator and get it back up in the air it won't have to come down again for years to come !
(which should be the case actually!)
...
not to change the subject but I saw a thing on TV about a guy that converts normal cars to electric cars .... I am impressed by it seams that he did it fairly quickly and cost the guy a bundle but a person could convert their own car fairly cheeply
I even found some info on the net about it googleing "converting your car to electric" ....and got about a dozen hits of guys that convert cars for a living!
....if you remember the VW in "Mother earth news magizine" back in the 1970's or 80's that they converted,...  I alwayse wondered if it could be done to a full sized car and OBVIOUSLY it can be !... the car had a decent range of 200miles between charges and could do 65mph.... and could even lay a short patch of rubber from a stop sign!
.... sense you already have a SOLAR Farm there Tink you might look into replaceing your engine with an electric motor and put batteries in the bed.... as long as you don't have too far to go to town you'ed be in great shape....
 and you could put a pony motor turning altenators or a generator in the back to make your range endless ! .....
 however, you don't want to buy the electric motor from the electric car converter people they want over $3,000 for them ! ... its like WOW! OUCH and a HALF!
but if you could find the same motor at a REASONABLE price it might be worth it !
... its a thought!
...
Bob.........

[Tink]

I'll definately look into that! A while back I did see something to the same effect and the only drawback was the amount of amp hours it would deplete the solar system battery bank. Now that where a hybred system would come in handy. When I had wind all nite it would be feasable for me.
Tink

[Bob]

Well, even if you didn't have wind all night you'd have the sun the next day,so you could at least catch up... but that's not when you'd need the power...you need it at night to charge up the truck for the next day.... if need be you could fire up the generator and use it,  a gallon here or there is better than a tank full every other time you go in with a gas rig!
...
Personally I like the idea of a Pony motor... turning a generator  you could leave it running while you go into the restaurant and eat, then come home on a charged system.
...
there is no doubt that you can make a stationary motor 9 times more efficient than one that changes throttle position all the time... you could more than cut your gasoline usage in half... probably more like 3/4 because the engine is smaller and running at a constant speed , you could set the carb on it for very good economy !... just another thought!
....
 the bad part is the initial cost of the controlers and Drive motor... they ain't cheep
there's a slim possibility that you could make your own controller... and perhaps pick up a electric forklift motor....or something like it, maybe a Jet starter motor I dunno...
(.... I think I'll start another board on electric vehicles !)
....
Bob......