Lazar's car

[Manta]

Bob,

.. However if you change that Qualification to be able to add fuel which some scientists have done then we have had Perpetual motion engines sense the first "Water Wheel"..

Sorry,  you can't change the rules.   If you need to add fuel then the fuel will have to be replenished.  This is no longer a perpetual motion machine. As isn't the water wheel 'cause it needs rain.

Thinking about Lazar's car.. If this hydride is restricted because it is required for bomb making.  How come no one has stolen it and sold the fuel tanks to someone intent on making a bomb ?  Don't make sense that he should be allowed to just run around on the streets with a trunk load of very valuable and extremely rare material.

Back to the 100 percent hydroxy thing. What happens when you need to go up a hill ? You can't doodle along on part throttle then.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
I agree a water wheel is Not perpetual Motion... that was why I used it as an example
you can't change the Rules.... thats a No-No !  HAHAHAHAHA
..
that is why as of today No one has ever made a Perpetual motion engine... although I have seen a few examples that qualify for that , they have never achieved national recognition for the task and believe me, if some one was to make such a thing work the world would know their name  !
...
but magnetic motors and such like may indeed crack it.... i hope some one does as we need it now more than ever ! HAHAHHA
....
100% hydroxy gas and going up hill ?  not a problem.... just shift down ...
...
if I build up my truck to only be able to handle 1/2 throttle it would indeed be a gutt-less wonder
when it comes to hills and loads and such...to cure that simply add on more cells and get more LPM output...
 ...
 Manta if you agree that a car engine can run on Hydroxy gas then you must be able to see that a car engine can make Huge amounts of hydroxy gas available...
 How much Hydroxy gas can a 200hp engine make ?  at a 10amp:1LPM ratio  its a Monsterious amount !
....
if you can see that it would be able to make enough gas to run the engine and then some then you can see that it could also move down the highway...maybe...
... Yes ?
Bob.......

[Bob]

that's an interesting problem.... How much Hydroxy gas can a 200HP engine make in perfect conditions ?
....
say it takes 10hp to make 100amps 10/200=20 (20 alternators) times or 2000amps, at a 10amp:1LPM ratio that's 200LPM !
....understand though that the engine can do nothing else its using ALL its power to make Hydroxy gas to the tune of 200LPM....
 Obviously we don't need that much Hydroxy gas...(or do we?)
 so the question becomes one of How much Hydroxy gas do we REALLY NEED THEN ?
 to figure that we must know the size of the engine (2.5Ltr.) the Mix ratio of Hydroxy gas to air... probably fairly LOW as it doesn't like to be diluted much,  Lets say 4:1....
so for a Minute of operation we take the displacement times the RPM and that gives you the VOLUME at FULL THROTTLE,and then divide it by 4:1...
2.5x8500RPM= 21250 Liters per min at full throttle /4= 5312.5LPM at full throttle
...
Ok now reduce the throttle position and you reduce the fuel needed.
1/2 throttle 5312.5/2= 2656.25LPM
at 1/4 throttle 2656.25/2=1328.12LPM
(Mind you that my truck only gets above 1/4 throttle when I shift  gears so cruising at 70mph is done at 1/4 throttle)
...
   so unless my figures here are wrong I need 1328.12LPM to run my truck at 1/4 throttle... this is about 1000% more than I have previous figured, I suspect that I
more than likely added dividing the fuel air ratio by 14:1 or something
...
   this is disheartening to say the least... Please tell me I am wrong here !
...
at this rate the engine cannot make any where enough fuel to feed it self...maybe at idle it could,but that would be all.even if the first calculations are double the hp required that would still only give us 400LPM at max output for the 200hp engine making all the HHO it can ...
 Oddly enough I think I see where I screwed up on my original calculations many moons ago, I think I inadvertently used a moderate RPM instead of full throttle RPM as would be consistent with the displacement /suction at the intake.
that would have given me a much lower number to start with not in the tens of thousands of LPM of intake...
Does this sound right to you Manta ? 
as it looks like your correct !     ...Darn it ! LOL
....
Bob.......

[Bob]

if that's the case then How Did John (Hydrotech) get his big truck to run (albeit Poorly) down the block and back on 12LPM ? its a Huge truck engine its a 6 or 7liter v8 ! he guessed at the time that 30LPM would allow him to run his truck on 100% HHO with no gasoline at all ... I don't doubt his word one bit
but I do doubt my figures !
..Help me out here guys what have I done wrong ?
...
Bob.....

[Manta]

Bob,

The only way we're ever going to get to the bottom of this is by experiment.  Then we can do the sums and work out what is happening.  So dust off the B & S.

Seriously though.  In five days I will have done my 50 years at the grindstone and retire. Actually fifty years, and five month. But after all that time;  who's counting ? I intend to settle down to getting some hard facts that may be of interest. Don't hold your breath though.  I have a lot of other things to do as well.
As you know,  I do accept that an engine can run on hydroxy alone. But not that it can make enough to run as if it were running on gasoline. every amp produced is load on the motor that has to come from somewhere. I don't think you can break the laws of physics,  but you can get around some of them to some extent. In the end,  they still apply.  However,  there is,  no doubt,  a Nobel prize for anyone that can prove the laws of thermodynamics wrong. And we'll think your pretty cool as well.

As for the B & S , I would suggest ignoring it's own ignition system. Run a toothed belt to some kind of outrigger and set up a normal half-speed set of points. this will get around the backfiring on the overlap stroke caused by the B & S sparking every time up.  You will also be able to vary the timing much more easily as the engine is running.A bit like to old magneto advance-retard lever on early bikes.

Just a thought(or two).

Manta

[Bob]

WOOO HOOO Congrats on the Retirement Manta ! You Made it ! Finally !
(I know how it is waiting for it to happen! it seams forever!)
...
 Well I am Convinced that Mathmatics will tell us if its possable or not, and I am totally confuzed at my latest figures because they are no where near my original findings.... and I hardly think I could have been THAT WRONG ! .... but in all truthfullness these figures are more of what I'ed expect to see simply because they go along with Physics... and not against it..... unfortionately !
...
As I've said many times before using the AIR intake of the I.C.Engine is really not the way to calculate the fuel needed to run it.... but done correctly it should work ok, just as using a measured amount fuel would over a short period of time to figure out how much it takes to go for a Long time.
both ways should Jive.... if they don't there is a screw-up somewhere !
....
if I remember correctly I used Hydrotechs conclusion, as well as Randy's experiments as a GUIDE
to extimateing the Hydroxy gas needed to run the truck, because these gave me a LPM number to work with.
 Hydrotechs 8~12LPM idled his large V8.
 Randy's 6LPM idled his 2.5liter Dodge 4x4.
(to about 2800to 3000RPM, so well above an idle...but NO load and it ran fairly good but wouldn't throttle at all because he was injecting that into the intake manifold.(gasoline turned off))
...
So Randys Experiment was actually about 1/2 way there to "100% hydroxy gas"
but we know that the intake of air and fuel is exponential as the RPM increases so following that
I guesstimated that 15LPM should be enough to run my truck...even at full throttle (but no load)
...
and that seams correct to me as well. so even on the Outside at 20LPM it should be able to run the truck under a load.... and 20LPM is obtainable,  400LPM is not.
...
Just Duplicating Randys Experiment but using Double of the Hydroxy gas He had at the time should render a drivable truck, it may well only take about half throttle then be too lean for anything more than that but still, most of my driving is at 1/4 throttle.... and I don't drive at 40mph either! i push the outer limits of the speed limit where ever I go <GRIN>
 so that's a mere 12LPM... so you can see where I came up with the 15LPM for my truck.
...
so why don't the 2 figures Jive ?.... they should !

1) Using the air intake only gives you the VOLUME of air the engine takes in at full throttle
   which is a huge amount, its Maximum potential at RED LINED RPM. and sense the air intake and fuel
   ratio go exponential and not linear that really messes up the figures!
2) in Hydrotechs and Randys experiments we have no idea of the AIR INTAKE Volume or the fuel mix ratio
   for that matter we just know that the engines Ran, Randy's engine ran good ,Hydrotechs
   engine ran poorly , it needed more fuel but it was a much larger engine.
3) we also know from other experiments that some smaller engines run on Hydroxy gas in one instance
   the figures were 8LPM for a 5hp in another it was 4LPM for 3.5hp (both engines ran fine.)
...
lets take that for a second and see what it yields....
...
1.6 per hp,and 1.14 per hp on the first and 2nd small motors.... so lets say 1.3LPM per hp as an average.
200hp/1.3=153.53LPM  but... 200hp is the MAX hp(max RPM) of the engine and we don't use that at all times, it will run and move on much less of course, but it would still be nice to have FULL Horsepower!
...
so a tad less than 1LPM per hp is needed to run an engine on Hydroxy at 100%
...actually that sounds about right !
ACK !
....
Hummmmm
still thinkin'
Bob......

...

[geezer]

  Bob maybe im reading this wrong,but in figuering eng.size remember these are four strokes
each cyl.charges everother stroke.even at wide open there is still vacume so will not fill
completely. just a thought.  Glenn

[Bob]

OOOOh yah ! Your right ! not every revoultion... but every OTHER one !
.... but then we'ed have to calculate how many cylinders are then filling up.at that time....
 hummm
 so saying "2.5liter... per minute" is very wrong just in that respect very good point Glenn thank you ! great observation ! you get a COOKIE !
LOL
...
so what's that do to the numbers....
2.5liter/4cylinders=0.625 ltr each just for fun...
at 3000rpm (high cruse speed, 80mph) half of those RPMS don't suck in air.changing the overall volume by a huge amount.... thank you Glenn !
...
ok it follows then that a 4 cyl.4 cycle  engine has to turn over 4 times to do the intake stroke on all 4 cylinders ( yes and even at full throttle there is still vacuum so the cylinders are never quite filled up!)
so at 8500RPM (RED LINE)divided by 4=2125x2.5liters=5312.5 liters sucked in through the intake per minute at 8500rpm (or close to it...a bit less actually)
.... (not the 10's of thousands of liters)
if we run gasoline at 14:1 we'ed take 5312/14=liters used 379.42 liters used per min....... ummm wait a minute thats not right ! LOL
we know from practical experience that the engine uses less than a fraction of a single liter per minute.... even at full throttle !
....something is amiss here !
...
I am quickly beginning to think it can't be done with the figures given ! LOL !

...
Bob...

[Bob]

Well, as Close as I can tell ...its my guess that 15LPM will run my 2.5liter truck just fine....
...
its a GUESS and I know it... but its all I have... LOL !
...
I'd rather take the volumes used by my friends than the Air volume calculations any day of the week....there just doesn't seam to be a way of un-doing the exponential volumes... perhaps with the Sqr root of the volume but that gets a bit beyond my understanding ...
so any of you mathematical "smarty pants" out there want to calculate how much Hydroxy gas my truck has to have  to run at 3000rpm Please feel free to enlighten me ! HAHAHAHAHHAHAH



Bob......

[randy]

Hey Bob;
Something major happens with these cells when operated under a vacuum, "visually" it appears to more than double the output, but I have no way of knowing for sure, I'm kind of leaning toward the idea of "capping" the intake and supplying enough volume of gas to run the engine, all I've got to do is come up with the time to build it all, my deafening experiments with balloons tell me there's enough oxygen in the hydroxy to get a complete burn, if cells are ran under a vacuum you might not need as many cells as we think. Them cat dish plates sound promising, ya otta see how close you can get them, you'll be able to pull more amps that way from what I've learned.

[Manta]

A little thought experiment for you guys.

Imagine a jar half full of water. Apply a vacuum to the space above the water.  Knowing that water boils at much lower temperature as the pressure decreases ,  what happens to the water ?

Manta

[ROADKING]

Bob,
If you look at you tube a person has a cell running under vacuum with a compressor from a refrigeration unit, I have thought of doing this, but never have got to it yet.

[Manta]

Randy,

Is there any measurable difference in the current draw when the vacuum is applied ?

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
on your thought experiment... don't know where your headed with it but I'm game ! HEHEHEH
a jar half full of water and then you put the top half under a vacuum.... the Oxygen in the water will expand greatly and the water level will rise to about 3/4 full mark. (water does not compress but it will expand at a fast rate under a vacuum.) sense the molecules are now Stretched in the water that's under a vacuum it may well be possible to tear them apart easier with electrolysis.
...
Roadking:
 there are soo very many videos there about HHO and stuff I could look for hours trying to find the one you are refureing to ... do you have a name or a Link for us ? sounds interesting!
...
the problem as I see it is simply to put the cell under manifold vacuum... because a vacuum pump will have to run constantly and have enough volume to over take the HHO production TOO...
although I know from my old Pinto that 10 to 15pounds of vacuum are all that you can count on while driving down the road, but at an Idle it goes allot higher... this isn't a very High vacuum so I am not sure how you'd get around that .... a vacuum pump would be sucking up all the Hydroxy gas that is produced and any water vapor that is also released...so you'd have to pipe the exhaust of the vacume pump into the intake of the engine.....
...
 I think what Manta was getting at is that if you put water under a high enough vacuum it will look like it boils away... but what is happening is it will evaporate into a water MIST....or steam....instantaneously... and there will be no liquid water at all in the high vacuum container
but this is very high vacuum if I remember correctly....because its the Atmospheric pressure that keeps water in its liquid form...remove that pressure and it becomes a gas again.
...
so its very possible that it would be easier to extract the hydroxy gas while its in this form.
...
Bob......

[ROADKING]

I have reviewed Zero Fossil, who I personally have a lot of faith,  and he claims there is very little difference under a vacuum, it does appear to have a lot more action, but on the measurements, not much if any.