Lazar's car

[Manta]

Don't know if you guys have seen this, but here it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfBdPKxk35k&feature=related

Manta

[janmarsh]

Seems as though we are going to have to call on Bob to dump his gasifier & have him knock together a Partical Accelerator !! 

[Tink]

Bob Lazar was on Cost to Coast a few weeks ago and talking about this very thing. It seams he really has found a safe and effective way to run a vehicle on hydrogen. If you are a member of Streamlink at  www.coasttocoastam.com you can get the download of that program. It is very informative.

[Bob]

hummmm
I watched about 1/2 that video and gave up nothing new that I saw, just another car that runs on Hydrogen... whats the big deal ?
...
Bob......

[Bob]

hehe Ok I went back and watched the whole thing despite the Dip of a reporter...
ok he makes a small amount of Hydroxy gas, separates the oxygen and hydrogen
and then puts the Hydrogen through a Partical accelerator to make Hydrate ?
....
 they went on to say that you can't by the Hydrate because its considered fuel for a nuclear weapon.
but you can make it yourself....
 I take it the idea was to FILL his 4 small tanks in the back of his corvette with Hydrate (not just Hydrogen but hydrogen Hydrate because it is much more condensed)
....
ok great... how do I make a partical accelerator like Bob Lazar did ?
what special considerations need to be given to Hydrogen Hydrate  instead of plane hydrogen ?
...
tiz a tantalizing piece but not enough information is given to Piss at ... darn it (which is usually the case uh ?)
....
Bob......

[janmarsh]

Here you go Bob......... easy as winks  


http://www.lassie.demon.co.uk/scribb/accel.htm

It is the type of hydride lazar is producing that is barred from sale.



Maybe these type of cells could be made use of ?

http://www.valeswood.com/hydrogen-storage.php

[Bob]

HEHEHE Where do you come up with these ? LOL
ok its easy to see that the partical Accelerator idea is out, but the Metal Hydride is the ticket
...
it looks to me that a metal tank (more than likely Stainless steel) is filled with a SUBSTANCE that adsorbs Hydrogen.... at low pressure... and you simply pump in hydrogen till all the stuff in the tank can't adsorb any more and the tank is full....
... Ok what substance adsorbs Hydrogen gas like a sponge ?
...
yes this idea does look like a possible answer really because you could store a huge amount or Hydrogen
in a few small tanks ....
and a colossal amount in a few bigger tanks.
....
this reminds me of the new laws they put in effect for race cars when I was a Kid the gas tank had to be filled with a large sponge of a certain type to prevent bad fires on the race track  the idea worked and they still use it today.... although a tank could spring a leak it wouldn't explode and send its contents all over making "fiery death" for anyone near by. almost like the bladders they use in the UH1 Helicopter except that they treeted the entire tank as a sponge.
...
this is actually doing much the same with Hydrogen letting (whatever it is in the tank) soak up all the hydrogen it can and then retreeve it at your leasure. the tank can't explode because the "FUEL"is held in the substance, burn yes but not explode, and that is a good thing!
...
with this idea you could power your car on pure hydrogen and be confident that you wouldn't run out
half way to town because the packageing of the Hydrogen is held in at the melectular level...increaseing the CAPASITY of a normal tank by many times...
a 1200 liter capacity tank looked about the size of the old class room fire extinguishers .... normally that tank size is the Large Oxygen bottle used for welding.
....
Now we know why Bob Lazar had 4 of those small bottles in his trunk.... and he said he could go 400 miles on one fill up of hydrogen.
...
you can think of that method as a Battery for Gas.
...
the question is what is in the containers ?
rice ? powered alumimum ? sand ? dried milk? ....Powered Viagra Pills ?
LOL
...
Bob...........

[Tink]

Bob,
I think it is Hydride like in metal hydride batteries! I really think Lazar has the right idea for running a vehicle on hydrogen. The problem is to be able to fabricate it in your garage so all us tinkerers can make our own. I bet the unit is going to be expensive. Lazar is undoubtedly going after the big market in a commercial way but this has to be done so the masses can start using this technology. I'm with you in that I want to build my own. The Coast to Caost program is much more informative. I could try to get it to you if you are interested. I think I can get it you in a format you can use. One question I have is since there is no oxygen to turn to water in this technology does that exclude the necessity to use stainless steel parts in the engine, like valves and what not?
Tink

[Manta]

Isn't a cathode ray tube a form of particle accelerator ?

Just a thought.

Manta

[Bob]

Tink... I have no idea what they are doing actually, but I'm courious as heck ! being able to store large quanities of Hydrogen safely is a fantastic thing !
I'ed just like to know How they do that !
...
 Hydrogen when burned would randomly find some oxygen molecules to bond with so you'd get some water dripping out of the exhaust pipe...but you do normally with gasoline too ...
 I don't think having to have all stainless steel parts is an issue with running Pure Hydrogen but hydrogen Hardening would be an issue after a prolonged use...say 200,000 miles or so
 however Work hardening has been an issue as long as engines have been used too and if done correctly at a certain time in an engines life ALL moving parts should be replaced because of it, yet you never hear of that taking place...
 Hydrogen hardening was first noticed in large high pressure storage tanks where after repeated use the tanks would start to crack , but we are talking thousands of P.S.I. and unless the Hydrogen is under such high pressure it isn't going to seep through the metal as readily as it does in a huge pressure tank. I seriously Doubt that Hydrogen Hardening will be a serious issue for the automobile running on hydrogen, perhaps in some parts like the piston and rings but other than that ....
....who knows!
....
 Manta ! Your a genius!  an old TV and a bunch of bean tins and you got your partial accelerator !
the trick would be in the hook up of course... but isn't that always the case ?
LOL !

...
Bob....

[janmarsh]

Based on Lazar's calculations, his form of hydride seems to have an enormous hydrogen retaining capacity compared to Metal Hydride.

He doesn't state the size of engine but a Metal Hydride 1200 ltr. cell would last no more than two minutes as far as he is concerned.  

[Manta]

I was wondering about that.  He claims about 400 mile to a fill. I as thinking that it seems a lot of miles for not so much hydrogen, particularly as he appears to be filling the tanks using water pressure from the mains only. The figures don't seem to add up.
Anyone know what the hydrogen consumption of an average car is ?

manta

[janmarsh]

It would be interesting to know the spec. of his generator, it's construction & it's efficiency.  I understand it takes two days to charge the cylinders from empty.

[Bob]

well, he has a corvette,and corvetts usually have very large engines in them... guessing probably 400c.i.d.  and with gasoline he'ed probly get about 17mpg with it...at the most maybe 20mpg
...that means a big bunch of hydrogen for those small containers....
Knowing Bob Lazar he probably BOUGHT everything...includeing the hydrogen generator... so I suspect that everything is "off the shelf" with the exception of his partical accelerator... if indeed that is what it is.
....
Bob......

[Bob]

Keep in mind that with pure Hydrogen you can mix it with air and really thin it out allot...more than gasoline  20:1 to 30:1 is about max.so that fact alone will allow extream fuel milage.as compaired to gasoline.... instead of 15:1 for gasoline the 30:1 for hydrogen would allow for double the mileage right off the bat...
...its a thought
...
Bob........

[janmarsh]

Lazar's own words............quote:

Cars typically require around 700 to 1,000 liters of gas per minute to cruise at normal speeds.
These 'under the hood' kits you see for sale produce on average about 1 liter of gas per minute.
It's simple math.
                           unquote.

My test car is only 600cc but I will need more cells going by this !   

[Bob]

Ok, if those figures are correct which I doubt because it is terribly HIGH !(More than likely derived from the displacement times RPM figures which is very very wrong!)
but lets say for a small v8 500~700 LPM is necessary to run the engine at cruse speed
 then I just as well chuck it all in and forget all about running my truck on 100% hydroxy gas !
... Believe me when I tell you those figures are NOT correct !
there is no way that I know of except perhaps an arc generator that would get anywhere near that kind of production ... so obviously you'd have to store it up over time Like Bob Lazar has
...if the containers in the back of his car each hold 2000liters (which is unlikely that they are that big) with 4 tanks, he has 8,000liters of stored Hydrogen available... that leaves him enough fuel to cruse for a minimum of 8 minutes.... not 400miles. (barely enough time to go 10miles)
...
 SO.... something is amiss !  those figures for me are suspect first off....
700 to 1,000 liters per minute at cruse speed ? I seriously doubt you can get that much air out of a 3/8" air hose at 110psi ! for goodness sake !  there is no way an engine needs that much gas to run it...it may well PUMP that much AIR at that cruse speed but it won't need that much FUEL !
....
Have you ever ran a V8 by squirting gasoline directly down the throat of the carburetor ? at about 3000 RPM it takes a steady drip of fuel is all,teetering on the verge of a steady stream.
gasoline is more compact than Hydroxy gas or Hydrogen gas and it is mixed with air at the rate of 14:1 .... 14 parts air to 1 part gasoline.
 so if you just say 14 times that steady fast drip you'd have the amount of fuel needed to run the v8 at 3000rpm at a constant rate. (a small 1/4" gas line will supply that much fuel easy)
but we are leaving out the air here.... and you can't do that if your trying to figure a GAS and not a liquid...
 Now is when the displacement times RPM starts to come into play... but ONLY starts because the engine runs in a state of vacuum most of the time, and ONLY gets all the air it wants when the throttle is wide open, (even then there is still a bit lacking because it takes a vacuum to suck in the air)....
....so with the throttle only 1/4 open how much air does it suck in ?  7liter engine times 3000rpm=
21,000 liters/4=5250liters...per minute... but we need fuel to burn in that air... if your running pure hydrogen its 20 to 30:1 ratio so say 25:1  (5250/25=210 liters per minute)
... now that's a 7liter V8 at 1/4 throttle at a 25:1 ratio of hydrogen to air and its 210 liters per min...  something you could get through a 3/8" line but it would be singing a tune !
if he has 8000liters of storage capacity that's only 38.09 minutes at cruse speed....
again far far short of 400miles, as your lucky to get 40miles in 40min (60mph =1mile per min)
...
so his storage capacity has to be incredibly high.... in the Hundreds of thousands of liters to get 400miles or he is running 40:1 or leaner or both...and a smaller engine...
from that video we do not have enough information to sneeze at....
...
 so by my figures instead of the 700~1000 liters per min,  I come up with 210 liters per min. on a very big engine.... calculate that to a 2.4liter Toyota and the figures get much more reasonable !
and 100% Hydroxy gas powered, becomes possible.
...
Bob......

[Manta]

Bob,
Actually the idea of an old tv and a few cans may not be as far off as you may at first think.  At work we have a spectometer. Basically it is a tube which has the sample to be 'sparked' placed across the end. The sample is insulated from the tube and becomes the anode (I think) whilst the electron gun is down the other end. A high vacuum is created in the tube and the assembly essentially becomes very similar to a tv tube. The shower of sparks from the electron beam are analysed by a computer. I've no idea how Lazar does it, but there may be a way based on the above.

As for the production of the hydrogen. He does mention that he uses solar as there is plenty of sunshine in New Mexico. So it looks like like a matter of simply letting the sun do all the work. Some kind of Hoffman apparatus is all you need. Over the days you could build up a very large stock.

Manta

[Bob]

you certainly could... if you had a way to store it.... Like he says he has !
i have a feeling his Hydrogen output is very low even though he mentioned that his generator was the equivalent of an industrial generator... because he said the average output is 1lpm
and we surpassed that years ago... in Hydroxy output... but separating the oxygen at the same time as its made is no small task and takes a different type of cell than the type we have been building... not much different but they are different enough to have to re make the cell completely from scratch ! LOL !
 I drew up plans for a larger cell that would separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen and have a decent output as well (theoretically anyway) a long while back,while I was still on the mountain.  so I am fairly certain I could get a decent amount of pure hydrogen if I wanted it
....but at the moment I like the Hydroxy gas   ....it goes boom real good just the way it is !
...
its hard to say about his Partical Accelerator... its probably something as simple as passing the hydrogen through a real strong magnetic field or something equally as silly!<GRIN>
...but not knowing the specifics  its just guessing!
...
I would really love to know more about the metal hydrate Method of storing Hydrogen though!
 it sounds like the answer for safe storage of large amounts of hydrogen...that in itself
can be worth allot to me... as I could store enough hydrogen through the summer months to burn hydrogen gas in the winter to keep me warm , just from solar power! a zero cost heating bill would save me a bunch of money... right now I am spending $4.75 per 40lb bag of wood pellets and I go through 1 bag a day.... that adds up fast !...not to mention the hassel of getting the bags and all that., still its much cheaper than heating with OIL !
LOL
...
if you or anyone run across a link to information on Metal Hydrate please post it !
...
Bob.....

[Bob]

Ok I did a bunch of reading and watched Lazar's video again and did some more searching
and I finally found something of interest...
this is a small piece from the Wiki-pedia site.
...
"Lithium-6 deuteride can also be used as a storage vessel for use in hydrogen vehicles. Li-6-D can be made by heating lithium-6 and deuterium gas (from electrolyzing heavy water) in a hermetically sealed container to 600-700 C. Safety

LiH is flammable in air, and it reacts explosively with water to give corrosive LiOH together with hydrogen gas."
...
evidently this is what he is using as a storage materiel... and although the hydrogen is not a safety issue the Lithium-6 deuteride certainly is ! .... Under Normal conditions its safe granted. but what happens if a car wreck occurs in a rain storm and rain gets to a ruptured tank ?
he has enough Lithium-6 in those tanks to level 7 city blocks !...
 but I suppose your not supposed to know that !<GRIN>
...
granted in the containers the stuff is in its relatively safe  as long as water doesn't get to
the "Salt looking" crystals  your fine .
...
being a Nuke Phd I suppose he over looks the obvious dangers as a matter of every day course... but it burns in AIR... and explodes in water... both of which can be found in abundance on any road trip... and in a car where bad things can and do frequently happen to its occupants... there is Nothing to insure that the Lithium Hydride is going to be kept out of those elements...
  this mans cure is worse than the disease !
... I hope I am wrong and I got the wrong info about this, but if I'm right... he is an IDIOT!
...he is not driving around in a hydrogen bomb, he is driving around in a Lithium-6 deuteride
bomb that has the potential of being 5000 times worse !   DUH !
...
My Dad worked at the proving grounds at Areo-Jet General, and played with exotic fuels and exotic rocket designs back in the 50's and 60's  they would walk by a huge block of Lithium about the size of a box car and stick their fingernails in it and get a chunk under their fingernail and  then flick that piece into a puddle and have a good time surprising people with it... especially when half the people were shell shocked from all the explosions going on in that place all the time...
 that is until L.A.County discovered that they had been shipping such large blocks of Lithium to Areo-Jet Via Rail car through the city... there was enough explosive potential in a single rail car to level the entire L.A. basin ! ... Lithium or any of its counter parts is very very explosive...think of nitro glycerin and you got the picture!
anyway after that it was shipped in 2ft blocks only 1 per train only (in a special car.)
....

Bob....

[janmarsh]

Bob,  Dont know if you have yet found this info.

http://www.metall.com.cn/lani.htm?gclid=CJaF6uSMxJ4CFVtn4wodEmOPpQ

[Tink]

Guys,
I emailed Bob Lazar and he gave me permission to post his reply:

From: sales@unitednuclear.com
To: genetheinstaller@hotmail.com
Subject: Re: Water (HHO)
Date: Mon, 7 Dec 2009 11:20:04 -0500

Hello Gene,

Yes, all Metal Hydrides react with water, some quite violently, some just bubble a bit and are typically destroyed or rendered useless when exposed to air.

They react similarly to the alkali metals (Sodium, Potassium, Lithium). Pure Sodium & Potassium will produce Hydrogen gas so fast and hot that they catch fire & explode, Lithium will typically just bubble & steam a lot.

We do use about 10% Lithium-6 Deuteride in our proprietary Metal Hydride blend that stores the Hydrogen in our Smart Tanks.

Cut in half, Ignited, shot with incendiary bullets or immersed in water, our full Smart Tanks never do more than smolder in a worst-case scenario.

Our Hydride blend does not react violently with water, it does degrade though. Adding water to it will cause the material to bubble and quickly oxidize, then crumble apart.

We’re not really fans of HHO here. It is dangerously explosive and can never be stored safely making it useless as a fuel.

There are also so many scams out there involving HHO attempting to convince people that water is a fuel.

As I’m sure you know, it will always take more energy to extract any useful fuel from water than you can ever get from burning it. Water itself is not a fuel.

The nonsense clams of many fly by night HHO companies shed a bad light on Hydrogen fuel in general as most people think they are the same.

Although I think HHO does have some limited use, for the most part, HHO devices have been around for a very, very long time and in reality they have never found much real-world use.

Still, I think research into it is worthwhile and I wish you the best luck in your endeavors. Modern technology & materials may allow you to uncover new and useful applications for the gas.

You might find some useful  HHO data here:

http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/how_to/4310717.html

-Bob Lazar, CEO

United Nuclear Scientific

239 E. Grand River Rd. (P.O. Box 373)

Laingsburg, MI. 48848

517-651-5635

website: www.unitednuclear.com

Customer Service: customerservice@unitednuclear.com

Technical Support: sales@unitednuclear.com

[janmarsh]

Wow Tink,  Who else would have thought to go straight to the man.  A very fair, detailed reply also.  Should leave us all with optimism that we garden shed researchers may hit on it one day.

[Bob]

Ok so he's not an Idiot, and has tested that portion of the problem... GOOD glad to hear it !
10% isn't much by volume and I suspect he is correct in his smoldering statement... that's Kool !
... it sounds to me like he has the cure to the foreign oil problem already whipped...
each one of us could make enough hydrogen to power our own cars given enough time. the problem is STORAGE... and we still know no more than what was said in the video...
it doesn't look like a thing for the back yard do-it-your-selfer...but I'll try anything !
...
  I wounder if he would give you details on how to make the hydrate he uses Tink ?
 If I could power my truck in the same way he has done I'ed do it in a hart beat and leave HHO because of the dangers it presents ...after all, "a Foooom is much better than a big KABOOOOM !" LOL
if you get my meaning ! HAHAHAHA
...
He seams like a real nice guy to have answered your questions, you can't blame him for his statements against Hydroxy gas because he doesn't have our experience with it... I achieved double my MPG on my truck using HHO...but I'd MUCH rather run on pure Hydrogen given the chance ! and do away with gasoline completely !
...
Thanks for the info Tink ...much appreciated !
(and you can send him this reply if you fill inclined to <GRIN>)
invite him to Hydroxyhut.com... We'ed love to have his brains here ! HAHAHA
....
Bob...

[Tink]

I was surprised he replied so soon and honestly too. It does sound like he wants to keep his 'propriatory mix to himself. Can't blame him for that. If he can get this thing going it could be a gold mine. We all know the time is right for this sort of thing. I will pass your comments along Bob. By the way my wind turbine stopped turning and I'm tearing it apart to try to fix a shorted coil in the stator. I may just send it back to Forcefield and let them repair it. They did offer to make me a new one but that may take too long. I just got back from Show Low 20 miles away to get 6 foot of allthread to make jack bolts to lift the front rotor off the stator and take a look. We're getting that blizzard so the roads were treacherous to say the least.

ps. Google Bob Lazar
this guy is the real deal.

Tink

[Bob]

Ack ! sorry to hear the wind generator stopped working so soon ! that's not good at all!
...
Kind'a sounds like you over loaded it Tink, and one of the coils burned up and pushed its way on to the hub and stopped it from turning.... because I doubt the berrings would go bad that fast!
...
Let me know what ya find in that thing Tink .... hope its just a birds nest ! LOL
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Yes, it was very decent of Lazar to reply in such an objective manner. particularly as he has suffered such a slagging in the press.

Here's another middle-of-the-night thought.
I wonder if Lithium can be extracted from old batteries ?

Manta

[Tink]

Manta,
I think you stated in another thread that you don't think an engine can feed itself. Don't forget the more HHO it consumes the more H2O you need to feed it. It's just the oil companies have us all believing we need to keep feeding our vehicles huge amounts of gasoline or diesel. The very nature of this plane of existence tells us that there is no possible way to create a perpetual motion machine, everything is dying here. Come to think of it perpetual motion may well be the ultimate goal of human kind but we have to escape the lower levels of life to achieve it. Maby that is what being a God is all about.   Sorry, but we gotta get esoteric sometime.

Bob,
I tore apart the wind turbine alternator and it is truly a shorted stator coil. There is no sign of rubbing or scrapping or anything except some wires that look 'not kosher'. With the front rotor and stator removed the hub turns smoothly. I'm sending back the stator for replacement. Dan at Forcefield is being very helpful. I just hope this doesn't take too long.   
Tink

[Bob]

Wise move Tink ! that's what I'd do ....send it back !
odd that it worked for a little while and then burned up... probably just never got to that point of produceing that much power.... must'a had a good wind the other night and fried it
...get on his case and tel him to ship it to you FAST as you NEED IT... other wise he'll ship it normal freight and that is what takes the time !  express delevery ! DEMAND IT ! LOL
...
Bob...

[Bob]

Our scientists say there is no such thing as a perpetual motion engine because to qualify to be a "Perpetual Motion engine" the devise/engine has to either  replace its fuel completely or not use any fuel in the first place.... in other words get waste "Motion/energy" and not consume anything in the process... and Physics says that's imposable because of the conservation of motion laws
 However if you change that Qualification to be able to add fuel which some scientists have done then we have had Perpetual motion engines sense the first "Water Wheel"
...
I have seen a magnetic motor that spun all the time needing only one push to get it started...it used nothing but magnetic power and reached its speed of equilibrium quickly... it ran for hours while the inventor and I were talking.... he was trying to sell his invention at the time and envisioned a sute case size electrical generator that ran 24/7 to power a house... (personally I think that vision was way off the mark because of the power needed and the device only had a tiny fraction of power to give)
he moved away and that was the last I hurd of him or his engine.
 so Yes Perpetual Motion can be achieved but the resulting power output is extremely low...
we will have better Perpetual energy makers when they prefect fusion,and start breaking the strong and weak nuclear forces for the generation of electricity.
....
 JFYI that little magnetic motor the guy came up with was very simple there were 3 magnets in it I believe (maybe 4)( cheep ones from radio shack) and 2 geared wheels that turned at different raits
the big wheel about 8~12" in diam. was vertical and the smaller one was horizontal...
it was made out of brass tubing from the hardware store all soldered together with the exception of the magnets they were hot glued on .......
 I think the gearing was 2:1 but not sure... its been like 30 years ago and I don't remember that much about it , other than it realy looked neet !... there were a few things the guy would not tell me about.... and he was super paranoid... I suppose I was very lucky just to see it ! LOL
...
 People get real funny when they think they have the "World by the Ass" and a fortune in their ideas.
 I have about 4 inventions , maybe 5 to my list that I have come up with , but learned early on that its near imposable to market such a thing... and you have to have a good business head on your shoulders... which I do not have ...so I don't let it worry me any more , and I don't have to live in fear of the oil companies or the aviation community or the electricity companies, or the car companies.... because none of them like competition... its the American way! LOL
...
Unfortunately, Bob Lazar's Car does Look like the real deal... but coming up with a copy of it for our own use looks imposable... because of the Hydrate storage problem...
 More power to him, but when he runs afoul of the car companies and gets black-balled I do hope he puts his design out on the net for all to have ! <GRIN>
...
Bob.......

[Manta]

Bob,

.. However if you change that Qualification to be able to add fuel which some scientists have done then we have had Perpetual motion engines sense the first "Water Wheel"..

Sorry,  you can't change the rules.   If you need to add fuel then the fuel will have to be replenished.  This is no longer a perpetual motion machine. As isn't the water wheel 'cause it needs rain.

Thinking about Lazar's car.. If this hydride is restricted because it is required for bomb making.  How come no one has stolen it and sold the fuel tanks to someone intent on making a bomb ?  Don't make sense that he should be allowed to just run around on the streets with a trunk load of very valuable and extremely rare material.

Back to the 100 percent hydroxy thing. What happens when you need to go up a hill ? You can't doodle along on part throttle then.

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
I agree a water wheel is Not perpetual Motion... that was why I used it as an example
you can't change the Rules.... thats a No-No !  HAHAHAHAHA
..
that is why as of today No one has ever made a Perpetual motion engine... although I have seen a few examples that qualify for that , they have never achieved national recognition for the task and believe me, if some one was to make such a thing work the world would know their name  !
...
but magnetic motors and such like may indeed crack it.... i hope some one does as we need it now more than ever ! HAHAHHA
....
100% hydroxy gas and going up hill ?  not a problem.... just shift down ...
...
if I build up my truck to only be able to handle 1/2 throttle it would indeed be a gutt-less wonder
when it comes to hills and loads and such...to cure that simply add on more cells and get more LPM output...
 ...
 Manta if you agree that a car engine can run on Hydroxy gas then you must be able to see that a car engine can make Huge amounts of hydroxy gas available...
 How much Hydroxy gas can a 200hp engine make ?  at a 10amp:1LPM ratio  its a Monsterious amount !
....
if you can see that it would be able to make enough gas to run the engine and then some then you can see that it could also move down the highway...maybe...
... Yes ?
Bob.......

[Bob]

that's an interesting problem.... How much Hydroxy gas can a 200HP engine make in perfect conditions ?
....
say it takes 10hp to make 100amps 10/200=20 (20 alternators) times or 2000amps, at a 10amp:1LPM ratio that's 200LPM !
....understand though that the engine can do nothing else its using ALL its power to make Hydroxy gas to the tune of 200LPM....
 Obviously we don't need that much Hydroxy gas...(or do we?)
 so the question becomes one of How much Hydroxy gas do we REALLY NEED THEN ?
 to figure that we must know the size of the engine (2.5Ltr.) the Mix ratio of Hydroxy gas to air... probably fairly LOW as it doesn't like to be diluted much,  Lets say 4:1....
so for a Minute of operation we take the displacement times the RPM and that gives you the VOLUME at FULL THROTTLE,and then divide it by 4:1...
2.5x8500RPM= 21250 Liters per min at full throttle /4= 5312.5LPM at full throttle
...
Ok now reduce the throttle position and you reduce the fuel needed.
1/2 throttle 5312.5/2= 2656.25LPM
at 1/4 throttle 2656.25/2=1328.12LPM
(Mind you that my truck only gets above 1/4 throttle when I shift  gears so cruising at 70mph is done at 1/4 throttle)
...
   so unless my figures here are wrong I need 1328.12LPM to run my truck at 1/4 throttle... this is about 1000% more than I have previous figured, I suspect that I
more than likely added dividing the fuel air ratio by 14:1 or something
...
   this is disheartening to say the least... Please tell me I am wrong here !
...
at this rate the engine cannot make any where enough fuel to feed it self...maybe at idle it could,but that would be all.even if the first calculations are double the hp required that would still only give us 400LPM at max output for the 200hp engine making all the HHO it can ...
 Oddly enough I think I see where I screwed up on my original calculations many moons ago, I think I inadvertently used a moderate RPM instead of full throttle RPM as would be consistent with the displacement /suction at the intake.
that would have given me a much lower number to start with not in the tens of thousands of LPM of intake...
Does this sound right to you Manta ? 
as it looks like your correct !     ...Darn it ! LOL
....
Bob.......

[Bob]

if that's the case then How Did John (Hydrotech) get his big truck to run (albeit Poorly) down the block and back on 12LPM ? its a Huge truck engine its a 6 or 7liter v8 ! he guessed at the time that 30LPM would allow him to run his truck on 100% HHO with no gasoline at all ... I don't doubt his word one bit
but I do doubt my figures !
..Help me out here guys what have I done wrong ?
...
Bob.....

[Manta]

Bob,

The only way we're ever going to get to the bottom of this is by experiment.  Then we can do the sums and work out what is happening.  So dust off the B & S.

Seriously though.  In five days I will have done my 50 years at the grindstone and retire. Actually fifty years, and five month. But after all that time;  who's counting ? I intend to settle down to getting some hard facts that may be of interest. Don't hold your breath though.  I have a lot of other things to do as well.
As you know,  I do accept that an engine can run on hydroxy alone. But not that it can make enough to run as if it were running on gasoline. every amp produced is load on the motor that has to come from somewhere. I don't think you can break the laws of physics,  but you can get around some of them to some extent. In the end,  they still apply.  However,  there is,  no doubt,  a Nobel prize for anyone that can prove the laws of thermodynamics wrong. And we'll think your pretty cool as well.

As for the B & S , I would suggest ignoring it's own ignition system. Run a toothed belt to some kind of outrigger and set up a normal half-speed set of points. this will get around the backfiring on the overlap stroke caused by the B & S sparking every time up.  You will also be able to vary the timing much more easily as the engine is running.A bit like to old magneto advance-retard lever on early bikes.

Just a thought(or two).

Manta

[Bob]

WOOO HOOO Congrats on the Retirement Manta ! You Made it ! Finally !
(I know how it is waiting for it to happen! it seams forever!)
...
 Well I am Convinced that Mathmatics will tell us if its possable or not, and I am totally confuzed at my latest figures because they are no where near my original findings.... and I hardly think I could have been THAT WRONG ! .... but in all truthfullness these figures are more of what I'ed expect to see simply because they go along with Physics... and not against it..... unfortionately !
...
As I've said many times before using the AIR intake of the I.C.Engine is really not the way to calculate the fuel needed to run it.... but done correctly it should work ok, just as using a measured amount fuel would over a short period of time to figure out how much it takes to go for a Long time.
both ways should Jive.... if they don't there is a screw-up somewhere !
....
if I remember correctly I used Hydrotechs conclusion, as well as Randy's experiments as a GUIDE
to extimateing the Hydroxy gas needed to run the truck, because these gave me a LPM number to work with.
 Hydrotechs 8~12LPM idled his large V8.
 Randy's 6LPM idled his 2.5liter Dodge 4x4.
(to about 2800to 3000RPM, so well above an idle...but NO load and it ran fairly good but wouldn't throttle at all because he was injecting that into the intake manifold.(gasoline turned off))
...
So Randys Experiment was actually about 1/2 way there to "100% hydroxy gas"
but we know that the intake of air and fuel is exponential as the RPM increases so following that
I guesstimated that 15LPM should be enough to run my truck...even at full throttle (but no load)
...
and that seams correct to me as well. so even on the Outside at 20LPM it should be able to run the truck under a load.... and 20LPM is obtainable,  400LPM is not.
...
Just Duplicating Randys Experiment but using Double of the Hydroxy gas He had at the time should render a drivable truck, it may well only take about half throttle then be too lean for anything more than that but still, most of my driving is at 1/4 throttle.... and I don't drive at 40mph either! i push the outer limits of the speed limit where ever I go <GRIN>
 so that's a mere 12LPM... so you can see where I came up with the 15LPM for my truck.
...
so why don't the 2 figures Jive ?.... they should !

1) Using the air intake only gives you the VOLUME of air the engine takes in at full throttle
   which is a huge amount, its Maximum potential at RED LINED RPM. and sense the air intake and fuel
   ratio go exponential and not linear that really messes up the figures!
2) in Hydrotechs and Randys experiments we have no idea of the AIR INTAKE Volume or the fuel mix ratio
   for that matter we just know that the engines Ran, Randy's engine ran good ,Hydrotechs
   engine ran poorly , it needed more fuel but it was a much larger engine.
3) we also know from other experiments that some smaller engines run on Hydroxy gas in one instance
   the figures were 8LPM for a 5hp in another it was 4LPM for 3.5hp (both engines ran fine.)
...
lets take that for a second and see what it yields....
...
1.6 per hp,and 1.14 per hp on the first and 2nd small motors.... so lets say 1.3LPM per hp as an average.
200hp/1.3=153.53LPM  but... 200hp is the MAX hp(max RPM) of the engine and we don't use that at all times, it will run and move on much less of course, but it would still be nice to have FULL Horsepower!
...
so a tad less than 1LPM per hp is needed to run an engine on Hydroxy at 100%
...actually that sounds about right !
ACK !
....
Hummmmm
still thinkin'
Bob......

...

[geezer]

  Bob maybe im reading this wrong,but in figuering eng.size remember these are four strokes
each cyl.charges everother stroke.even at wide open there is still vacume so will not fill
completely. just a thought.  Glenn

[Bob]

OOOOh yah ! Your right ! not every revoultion... but every OTHER one !
.... but then we'ed have to calculate how many cylinders are then filling up.at that time....
 hummm
 so saying "2.5liter... per minute" is very wrong just in that respect very good point Glenn thank you ! great observation ! you get a COOKIE !
LOL
...
so what's that do to the numbers....
2.5liter/4cylinders=0.625 ltr each just for fun...
at 3000rpm (high cruse speed, 80mph) half of those RPMS don't suck in air.changing the overall volume by a huge amount.... thank you Glenn !
...
ok it follows then that a 4 cyl.4 cycle  engine has to turn over 4 times to do the intake stroke on all 4 cylinders ( yes and even at full throttle there is still vacuum so the cylinders are never quite filled up!)
so at 8500RPM (RED LINE)divided by 4=2125x2.5liters=5312.5 liters sucked in through the intake per minute at 8500rpm (or close to it...a bit less actually)
.... (not the 10's of thousands of liters)
if we run gasoline at 14:1 we'ed take 5312/14=liters used 379.42 liters used per min....... ummm wait a minute thats not right ! LOL
we know from practical experience that the engine uses less than a fraction of a single liter per minute.... even at full throttle !
....something is amiss here !
...
I am quickly beginning to think it can't be done with the figures given ! LOL !

...
Bob...

[Bob]

Well, as Close as I can tell ...its my guess that 15LPM will run my 2.5liter truck just fine....
...
its a GUESS and I know it... but its all I have... LOL !
...
I'd rather take the volumes used by my friends than the Air volume calculations any day of the week....there just doesn't seam to be a way of un-doing the exponential volumes... perhaps with the Sqr root of the volume but that gets a bit beyond my understanding ...
so any of you mathematical "smarty pants" out there want to calculate how much Hydroxy gas my truck has to have  to run at 3000rpm Please feel free to enlighten me ! HAHAHAHAHHAHAH



Bob......

[randy]

Hey Bob;
Something major happens with these cells when operated under a vacuum, "visually" it appears to more than double the output, but I have no way of knowing for sure, I'm kind of leaning toward the idea of "capping" the intake and supplying enough volume of gas to run the engine, all I've got to do is come up with the time to build it all, my deafening experiments with balloons tell me there's enough oxygen in the hydroxy to get a complete burn, if cells are ran under a vacuum you might not need as many cells as we think. Them cat dish plates sound promising, ya otta see how close you can get them, you'll be able to pull more amps that way from what I've learned.

[Manta]

A little thought experiment for you guys.

Imagine a jar half full of water. Apply a vacuum to the space above the water.  Knowing that water boils at much lower temperature as the pressure decreases ,  what happens to the water ?

Manta

[ROADKING]

Bob,
If you look at you tube a person has a cell running under vacuum with a compressor from a refrigeration unit, I have thought of doing this, but never have got to it yet.

[Manta]

Randy,

Is there any measurable difference in the current draw when the vacuum is applied ?

Manta

[Bob]

Manta:
on your thought experiment... don't know where your headed with it but I'm game ! HEHEHEH
a jar half full of water and then you put the top half under a vacuum.... the Oxygen in the water will expand greatly and the water level will rise to about 3/4 full mark. (water does not compress but it will expand at a fast rate under a vacuum.) sense the molecules are now Stretched in the water that's under a vacuum it may well be possible to tear them apart easier with electrolysis.
...
Roadking:
 there are soo very many videos there about HHO and stuff I could look for hours trying to find the one you are refureing to ... do you have a name or a Link for us ? sounds interesting!
...
the problem as I see it is simply to put the cell under manifold vacuum... because a vacuum pump will have to run constantly and have enough volume to over take the HHO production TOO...
although I know from my old Pinto that 10 to 15pounds of vacuum are all that you can count on while driving down the road, but at an Idle it goes allot higher... this isn't a very High vacuum so I am not sure how you'd get around that .... a vacuum pump would be sucking up all the Hydroxy gas that is produced and any water vapor that is also released...so you'd have to pipe the exhaust of the vacume pump into the intake of the engine.....
...
 I think what Manta was getting at is that if you put water under a high enough vacuum it will look like it boils away... but what is happening is it will evaporate into a water MIST....or steam....instantaneously... and there will be no liquid water at all in the high vacuum container
but this is very high vacuum if I remember correctly....because its the Atmospheric pressure that keeps water in its liquid form...remove that pressure and it becomes a gas again.
...
so its very possible that it would be easier to extract the hydroxy gas while its in this form.
...
Bob......

[ROADKING]

I have reviewed Zero Fossil, who I personally have a lot of faith,  and he claims there is very little difference under a vacuum, it does appear to have a lot more action, but on the measurements, not much if any.

[H²+O]

http://www.mhi-inc.com/Converter/watt_calculator.htm
scroll down...

a good chart for all your energies converting needs... (If you like using your calculator)

check out http://www.youtube.com/user/LanceMJoseph that engine is what i call sweet! (there is a book for building the injectors). i want to get a price for getting the parts built and making a small one to make myself some hho!

[Bob]

Kool ! thanks for that link it has bunches of calculations there ! should come in handy !
....
Bob.....

[H²+O]

http://www.knowledgepublications.com/solar_hydrogen.htm

this guy is the one explaining the engine. he knows what he is talking about..

his book The Solar Hydrogen Civilization is really good. he also explains how to make the injectors for that engine as well.

the guy who spent his life inventing that engine died in 06-07 but while he was in the hospital for a week all his work was stolen out of his house and never seen again

[Bob]

the same thing happened to "Pogue" the famous Pogue Carberator... reported to get well over 140mpg on a 1950's chevy bellair I believe it was.... after the USA companies "black balled" him (told his suppliers that if they sell to Pogue they will pull all their accounts ... so not a single company would supply him with the needed parts to build and manifacture his carberator to sell... so he moved to Canada.... while he was in the hospital for something minor his shop was broken into and all the pertantant molds casts and blue prints and all were stolen.... and the REST destroyied...
 the poor man finally gave up trying to manifacture the carb when his family was threttoned at gun point
....
at least that is the way I hurd it....
 the bad part is that is common place in the usa Now.... a group of inventers perfected a Hydroxy gas devise and were getting ready to manifacture it in Southern California...  3 of the 5 men resieved threts, and the main guy spearheadding it had his wife and Kids stopped on the road where 5 men in suits
and guns told her at gun point that if her husband didn't stop what he was doing they would all be killed...  Obviously he stopped what he was doing....
....
 it reads like stuff from someones Paranoid fanticies but the problem is that 99.9% of that BS is true
although it gets streached with the re telling at times, I truly believe this sort of thing goes on all the time....
 I knew a guy that made a air turbin that set under the carberator  and was making these things and selling them to the Redding Police and Highway Patrol... the invention was simple and elegant
and would work on any carberated car and provide 25 to 30% better gas milage and that much in Added Horsepower... (thats why the Police wanted it on all their cars!)
 His house was broken into , his paperwork taken and all his molds taken as well... at the same time his house was broken into his shop was broken into and then burned down....
... this guy was not secritive about his invention... if you asked him what it was he'ed tell ya !
a real nice guy! he recieved a phone call later that very night of the robery telling him that he better not presue this invention any more.... if he did there would be dire consiquences!
...whats a fella to do ? call the F.B.I. ?  he did !... they said in so many words, You better do what they say!...... so he did....
I talked to him just for a minute when I was at my Dads shop one time, he came in and my Dad told me this was the guy that made the whistle under the carberator.... sense I showed an interest and asked my dad everything about it I could .... he said if he saw him again he'ed introduce me to him!
which he did.... it so happened that Dad was repairing his car that the Robbers also smashed the windshield in on it.
  He said Learn from my mistakes... Keep a LOW profile!.... if the big companies get wind of you making something that will hurt your pocket book "you are target number one!"....
 and I do believe he was right on !
....
Paranoid ? Ravings of a deranged mind ?  Not from what I have seen ! ... I wouldn't put anything past the large corporations ...
  Look at it this way.... back ages ago when the Model A was being sold as a new vehicle
an invention was patented... it worked on the up draft carb of the Modle A of the time.... probably around 1919 or so .... the pattent gave this man full rights to it and it improved gasmilage up to 400mpg on his Modle A...
he tried to sell the invention but NO ONE would buy it, no body wanted it... the car companies havn't changed either... they still don't want 400mpg ! because the pattent has expired!  its now public knowledge.... it was a gasoline vaporizer....
 although they used vaporizers on Jet engines early on so they could actually get some mileage from the thirsty engines... they have NEVER used vaporizers on internal combustion engines....
...and its not because they don't work, its because they all hold stock in the oil companies...
its not in their best interest to put out a car that gets 400mpg ! its far better to sell you one that gets just slightly more gas mileage than the one you have now.... the oil company is happy and they are happy.... ....
 ....
 Perhaps one day underhanded business practices will be a thing of the past.... but it won't occure any time soon..... it is a self feeding circle.... and Yes it works that way in every feild
 Look at Microsoft..... you want underhanded business practices ? that's a great place to start!
.... do you honestly think that they Don't have an operating system that works ?  just because we can't buy it means nothing.
....
oh well....
"Rant off"
....
Bob....

[Manta]

...do you honestly think that they Don't have an operating system that works ? ...

If they do,  it's not called Vista.

Manta

[Bob]

LOL  Man you got that right ! ....
 and everyone is clambering to get their hands on the new windows 7 version ?  WHY ? it will be so laden with bugs that you could fish with it !  in 2 or 3 years after about a Dozen "Service pack FIXES"
it might be a usable system... but we must judge the future, from the past... and their PAST achievements are far from anything to brag about !
....
 I think what urks me the most about Microsoft was their Dirty Underhanded methods of Killing off the competition.... totally legal.... but totally WRONG !...
competition is a good thing... but Microsoft Killed off its competition early on "ON PURPOSE" and with a vengeance.....and we allowed it , so we get what they give us now!  Bill Gates should be behind bars not flaunting his money.... other people guilty of far less offenses have paid that price...
....oh yes America is a great place if your RICH ....but its greatness drops as the income does!
...
...
anyway... enough High-jacking this thred hehehehehhe
....
...

 I still wonder how Bob Lazar makes his Hydrates.... of if he even does... sense I found some containers already filled with the same stuff he uses.... for sale on the web... expensive isn't the word... their outrageious!.... but if you have the money you can fill them with hydrogen over night and drive 400+miles the next day on those tanks.... its a really good trick !
... so what he's done isn't something anyone else couldn't do... you just need his playing money !
 his accomplishments are great.... but in reality he just put the pieces together!....
that means anybody can do the same thing!
...
so if you want a car that runs on Hydrogen  look over what Bob Lazar did.... his way is the answer for Hydrogen powered cars... not fuel cells... those special storage tanks filled with hydrates that asorb hydrogen can hold hundreds of times more hydrogen than an empty tank....its BRILLIANT!
and it won't explode ! ....
...
but I want Hydroxy Powered ! not Hydrogen powered..... I can Make Hydroxy gas much easier than Hydrogen alone!
....
Bob.......

[randy]

Hey now, I really like windows 7, It's self maintaining, really fast, easy to navigate. Microsoft also got tired of everyone having to purchase third party antivirus to protect their operating systems, so they came up with Microsoft essentials antispyware and antivirus. I was a beta tester for both products and am very impressed with both. The antivirus program is totally free to everyone.
If you hated vista "as I did" you'll love win7, it's a whole new ballgame. There are systems being intentionally run without any antivirus, being uploaded with every virus, Trojan, and worm available, updates are written to combat these infections and entry points much as Apple Mac osx and snow leopard do. there is a small partition in the os that detects offensive algorithms and effectively stops them.
Just saying. hahahahaha

[Bob]

HAY ! its RANDY !  well amagen that ! ... well I'll believe it when I see it.... with Microsoft I have learned to be a Pessimist! LOL
...
as far as I am concerned there is too many things going on behind the screen that I don't know about NOW.... it don't need more stuff going on that I have no control over!
...

Hay Randy ! have you put your Hydroxy generator back in the truck yet
...
I gott'a go get busy on my Saw mill ! catcha later!
...
Bob......