What Determans the "OUTPUT" of a Cell ?

[Bob]

 There are a few things that Determine the output of the Hydroxy cell.
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1. Configuration.... the shape and Type of the cell
2. The Metal Used in the Construction of the cell
3. Internal Resistance and External Resistance of the cell
4. Amperage Used
5. Voltage used
6. Temperature of the cell in use.
7. Electrolyte Used
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 Of these things many of them interact with each other. for instance, a cell that puts out 2LPM at a Max Concentration of KOH to water, will put out less output at less of a concentration of electrolyte.... Obviously!
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the Electrolyte is Usually considered the major player in the Amp Draw of the cell.
 BUT another thing that will make a HUGE difference is how High of amperage I "CAN" pull through the cell, simply because wider spaced plates draw fewer amps than their counterparts.
 It may well be only possible to draw 25 amps MAX from a cell the way it sets , even with the KOH at the saturation point for the electrolyte !.... and  there is Little you can do about that. and the output is limited by the limited Amperage available.
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 It is what will Make or Break a cell design.... How many amps you "CAN" get through it!
I have made cells that only gave me 10amps Maximum draw.... obviously the output was pathetic!
....so remember that the Electrolyte Concentration will Not always give you High amp draw!
what determines the AMP DRAW is a Function between Plate spacing AND Electrolyte concentration,
that is what brings about How much "continuity" you get between the plates... and its that continuity that determines how many amps you can Draw. (How much POWER you can put into Making Hydroxy gas)
  so You can have a HUGE cell but only be able to get 10amps through it...although it has the Plate Area to handle hundreds of amps it does you no good because you can't get the AMPS to it!
*** this is very important to understand about Hydroxy cell design !***
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Configuration:
  Cell configuration varies from cell to cell and from builder to builder... no 2 are exactly alike, even though you attempt to make them the same.
there are Dry Cells, Wet cells, Tube cells, Proliferated Plate cells, and On and ON !
 There are Parallel Hookup cells,series Hookup cells and combination of Parallel and series cells, there are even Neutral Plate cells and Combination Parallel/Neutral Plate cells...
You name it its been tried !
 Some people Swear that one type of cell is better than another by Far... it just depends on your experience with cells in general.... is one type better than another ? that is a very good question, and the answer is "Probably YES !" but which is best is yet to be determined !
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Metal USED in construction:
  Many types of metal have been used in construction of Hydroxy cells...
Gold,Brass,copper,iron,Mild Steel,Alumimum (with dangerious results!),titanium,Even Graphite !
but the best results for all intents and purposes for the home builder is "Stainless steel"
its availability is somewhat iffy at times but it can be found.
Stainless Steel has the property to be non magnetic "if" a high quality grade is used and it resists crosion better than all the other metals combined.... which is the main reason we use it, because of the electrolyte we put it in will eat up most metals!
and sense some cell designs use Neutral Plates Non Magnetic plates are esential to their proper working, so High quality stainless steel should be used if the design is to incorperate Neutral plates in it.
 so it all basically boils down to use Stainless Steel for ALL the components that will be used
that are subject to the electrolyte's contact.
 Lower Grade S.Steel can be used if the cell doesn't use Neutral plates, with no ill effect... except perhaps a bit more Goo will be produced when first breaking in the cell.
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Internal/External Resistance:
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  Stainless Steel is actually a fairly poor conductor of electricity, this has been the cause of many experiments into other metals...but Most of us take it as "Part of the game" and try to reduce internal resistance in other ways... like more than one Electrical connection to the plate, if the plates are very large. a good rule of thumb (for me) is if the plate is larger than 8" it should be fed in at least 2 places 90Deg. apart.
other than the Plates them selves there is the insulatiating meterial used between the plates
and this one thing has caused more of my cells to fail than anything else ! normal Rubber hose
like the type used for gas line has an electrical continuity through it.... which makes it a very poor choice for cell useage... when in doubt use a VTOM on the meterial used as an insulator and if there is ANY Resistance at all Discard it !
Nilon,vinal gas-line,and Plexyglass are all good canadates for good insulators in a cell.
WIRING...HEAVY Multy-stranded wire is a MUST for Hydroxy cells Size#8 or Smaller in Number...like size#6 or Size#4.... No#4 is about as big around as a Pincle and is approaching a size that is almost UNWORKABLE.... its stiff and in general a Pain in the butt to use but if your running 100amps or thereabouts you better use #4 or even #2.
 Although many people (including myself) have used #10 wire to power their cell with it will get warm at a constant 20amp draw... and wire getting warm means more resistance and loss of power getting to the cell.
I have used #8 on my truck with no signs of the wire itself heating up and I have ran up to 40amps for extended periods.
heavy wire terminals, the size for the wire used is also a must,unless you want to form your own
loops on the end of the wire and solder them.(which is what I did)
Obviously, the components like the Relay will have to be of sufficient rating to handle the Amps used, but if the Relay needs to be grounded to work then use a heavy wire for the ground as well!
 I started with a 30amp self resetting circuit breaker I picked up at Autozone and found that I needed a larger amp rating than 30 amps, I must have hunted through 5 stores before finding one of 40amps, which I now have on the truck.
the ON OFF switch doesn't have to have such heavy wiring to it however as it simply turns on and off the relay when it has power from the ignition switch circuit, so I just used normal trailer light wiring wire #12 or equivalent, or even Zip cord, my switch is a lighted switch, so
its easy to tell if its on or not.
in Short USE bigger wire than you think you'll need because you will need it! most things do not use anywhere near 20amps of power and the Hydroxy cell uses that much or much more
for 20amps #8, 40amps #8~#6  Higher amperage needs larger wires #4 or even #2...be aware that
at the higher amperage you can start burning out 1/4" bolts if they are used to make electrical connections.... I read where 60amps was heating one guys 1/4" bolt connections to red hot...
a larger bolt and copper washers cured the problem.
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Amperage used:
...How much amperage should I use?
that depends completely on the cell used and the wiring used... if you use speaker wire to wire up a Smack booster then you better not run more than 10amps even that might melt the wiring!
...although most people run at or near 20amps, many use twice that, but you have to be set up to do that or you start melting wiring.
 At first you'd think the more Amps the better, but that is not always true...especially where heat is concerned... the more amps used the more heat is produced !
 Usually what happens is a person makes a cell and Sees how it operates at different amp settings , prior to use.  for every cell there is a optimum amp setting to be used for the most Hydroxy gas output per amperage used... with Minimal heat output.
 what that means is if you have a cell that runs 75degrees at 20amps and produces 2LPM
you have a Winner (such as a "Randy Cell") but if you push 40 amps through that same cell,you may indeed get more output about 3.5LPM in this case, BUT AT THE EXPENSE OF HEAT !... the cell will now boil the water/electrolyte in about 30 minutes. !
that is why you constantly see tests ran at only 20 amps and not more ! heat is a major ishue.
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  As Amperage goes up so does gas production, but only to the point of "Enough Plate area to handle the amps"...   you Can Probably keep adding amps till the cell melts down and it will continue to climb in output. but with all that heat its useless!  so with more Amperage also comes more Plate area... if your plan is to produce allot of HHO then you need allot of plate area and allot of amps... More plate area will allow the amperage to cover more surface area producing more gas... but it does not work the other way around, if you take a large cell and power it with a small amount of amps the output will be pathetic ! because there is a threshold
of Minimum plate amperage ... not enough amps and the cell hardly produces at all...BUT if you take the same cell and reduce the plate area in it and use the same amperage again output comes up !
... In fact, tuning a cell to the amount of AMPS used is a great way to increase performance!
this is How Randy and I tuned the first Randy Cells and came up with 11 plates, I confirmed his findings and indeed 11 plates is Peek output for 20amps ! (keeping the amps constant and "REDUCING OR INCREASING" plate area of a cell allows you to peek its output!)
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Temperature in the cell:
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 At first I thought , so what if the cell boils the water... who cares ? well You do ! because if the cell boils you get less Gas output and just water vapor ...and allot of it!
 I have ran my cells fairly hot in the past and the benefits are not as high as the benefits for keeping the cell COOL! you can COOK the KOH in the cell if it gets above 100degrees and it turns into a Coffee colored Mess that coats the plates and output drops because of it!
... However on the other end of the spectrum you need to keep the cell from freezing too !
Cold water doesn't produce near as much HHO as warm water does the difference can be as much as 1LPM from starting temp(cold) to running temp(85~90deg.)
... you want a Warm cell, but not a HOT cell !
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Electrolyte Used:
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 KOH and Lemonade Koolaid are my most favorite...and Lemonade does not have the high heat limitations that KOH has but its conductivity is much less than KOH.
Potassium Hydroxide is probably the most popular Electrolyte by far(KOH)
although some people use Sodium Hydroxide(NAOH,I believe) I recommend not using it. Salt is Bad for a cell, and it produces a green GOO that floats to the surface of the cell, left there it will coat the cell plates and render them useless ! only a cleaning with Muratic acid will get it clean again!
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AND use Distilled Deminerilized water in your Hydroxy cells... not the water out of the garden hose ! if you USE the water out of the Garden hose chances are you will have a GREEN GOO problem
and have to flush the cell many times to try to get it clean again...so don't take the chance!
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Remember I am Not an EXPERT at building Hydroxy Cells... this is Just One Mans OPINION.
...
Bob

[Manta]

Bob,

.... and  there is Little you can do about that. and the output is limited by the limited Amperage available...

You could increase the supply voltage. That would allow for greater current through the same electrolyte.


Something different.  Could you (or anyone) tell me the Ph  and / or Specific Gravity of the lemonade Koolade that some use ?

Manta

[Bob]

Ahhh Good Point Manta ! Coodos to you ! you get a cookie !  <GRIN>
Very well thought out my friend ! increasing the voltage would indeed Push more amps through the cell..... I never thought of that !  My hats off to you once again ! <GRIN>
  THANK YOU !
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...about the PH of Lemonade ...No Sorry but if you have a way to test the PH you could replicate
the Mix by putting 25 to as many as 51 packets of Lemonade in 1 gal of water...
my guess is that it is very strong, like concentrated lemon juice !
...
Bob....

[crb]

Don't have any lemonade, but lime juice that you get in
a plastic lime juice container is 2 - 3 on the ph strip.

crb

[Manta]

Bob,  crb,

Thanks for that.  If anyone does measure the SG of their lemonade,  please let me know.

Manta

[ROADKING]

I have found that your spacing changes a lot of things, I rebuilt a cell this week (dry) and I run pumps on mine, If you get the spacing to close it makes for a lot of amps with no better production, (with pump)  My cell is 31/2x31/2 with 4 3/8s holes for circulation, my first cell had very thin spacing (shower mat) worked good with out pump with pump doubled the amps with no more hho production.  I then replaced the gaskets with 1/8 in the amps dropped back down with 2 lpm at 25 amps,  I think I can lower the amps again with less and smaller holes, so now I will build another with 1/4 iinche holes 1 at top and one at the bottom, this will be less current leakage.  I think this will work a lot better  The arrangement of cell is -nnnnpnnnn-.  If I find that this works well I am going to build a 70 plate cell for 130 volt rectified, I have seen where you can do this and get 20 lpm at a 10 amp draw,  Any in put on this?  I will let you know the out come of all of this

[janmarsh]

Roadking, Your cell design is following a similar path to my own. You finding that pumping doubled the amps without gas increase has me curious ! 

[Bob]

Ummm  Yah I second that !
that sounds really weird !
is the pump hooked to the same power as the cells ? that could account for the higher amperage used. ?!?!?
...
when placing the plates closer together, you increase the amperage available to you to draw
when you separate them further you decrease the amps you can draw.
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this we have known for years
 How is it that you are finding just the opposite ? that doesn't make much sense to me ,but I'll entertain ANY idea ! LOL !

the spacing of the plates effects the PRODUCTION only because of the Higher AMP draw...
More amps= more production.... it can't be any other way unless perhaps the insulateing gaskets your using are passing electricity between the plates with a High resistance.
 I ran into that one time.... don't think its a Myth ! I used a car inner tube as gaskets and it gave me hell... not because of the leaks but because of the High resistance of the inner tube meterial ...it was acting as a resister and leaking electricity at every joint... and my amps went through the roof! ... I changed the gaskets and cured the problem. check your gaskets with the highest setting of your VTOM and see if you can get some resistance reading from the gaskets.... if you do ...thats the problem !
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thats my guess !
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Bob......
 

[ROADKING]

I dont know, but the pump itself pulls 31/2 amps, I measured the lpm with the pump, (2lpm) @50 amps, and with out the pump 2lpm.  What I think is that you have current leakage due to the holes.  This is a high volume pump producing 5 gal per min.  So I think running the plates so close with this pump causing the koh to be a better conductor I think it would do just as good or better with a 1/2 per minute pump.  As far as if the pump is hooked up to the same power as the cell, yes, just like it would be in a car.  I have checked it several times and it checked the same, so that it is how i came up with this.

[Manta]

Could it be that Roadking's extra Amps are being used up as heat ?

Manta

[ROADKING]

temperature of cell 90 f

[Bob]

humm...
it could be current leakage through the holes but I doubt it would amount to so much amperage
and if it was current leakage it would show up as heat....
 I still suspect the thinner gaskets have some continuity through them !
but I cannot condemn your actions or logic either...
the way I understand you have it is 2LPM with or without the pump at 50 amps... which seams like allot of amps for so little LPM output...
  the Holes are necessary for electrolyte circulation and a way to let the gas made escape !
Large holes for electrolyte circulation usually are not needed, but for the HHO to escape they have to be big enough to not be restricted very much
....
you may be right in the idea that the closer the holes are together the more current leaks from cell to cell....but the Holes should be staggered, not lined up... if their lined up that might be the whole problem...
by staggered I mean one hole in one corner and the next hole in the opposite corner so the holes are separated as far apart as possible.
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are the holes in the plates Lined up ? or staggered ?
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and how big are the plates and how many and in what configuration ... refresh my memory please
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Bob......

[ROADKING]

Bob,
The holes are lined up, I have 3 3/8 in holes across top and one 3/8 in hole in the bottom plates,  there is 11 plates, -nnnn+nnnn-,  dont forget I get 2 lpm at 25 amps no pump and 2 lpm at 50 amps with pump.

[Bob]

That's very strange !
 the Holes across the top are out of the water aren't they ? or is it a flooded system and its ALL wet ? ( forget that question , you have a pump so its a flooded system and the holes are submerged in the electrolyte.) duh !
....
 All I can think of is that the gaskets (when spacing them closer together) are resistive (showing some continuity on the highest Ohm's scale of a VTOM)
OR the holes being lined up is allowing Massive current leak...
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unfortunately the only way around that is new plates...(or at least Half of them new and different hole positions for the new plates)
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for 5LPM 2- 3/8" holes in the top should do it on each plate but how do you stager that ?
outside edges on one plate and the next plate would have them close together in the center
...then One 1/4" hole on the bottom corner on the oppisite side on each plate
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I have NEVER herd of that before... its Always with an increase of amps you get an increase of Output... ALWAYS !
 you have the privilege of being the first to encounter this problem in my book ! <GRIN>
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I wish there was a quick fix for ya , but all I can see is replacing the plates to cure the problem..... or plug the holes some how !
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if you have other cells around there try upping the amps on them  and see if you get the same results....  something is fishy here if that power  of 50amps is going into the cell plates you will get an increase in output... if its not doing that something is Borked !
it could be the amp meter and your only giving it just a few more amps and not as much as you think you are.....I say this because I had that problem once. and getting 50amps with KOH is a good trick actually... all my cells topped out at 40 or 45amps max... I found I couldn't run 100amps If I had to ! the KOH won't get me there ! I did not mix my electrolyte by weight however and that may well give ya a bit more than I ever got.
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 I Know I'm the one that told ya MORE HOLES ! but I didn't mean INLINE they must be staggered to keep the amp leakage down to a tolerable level...(sorry about that!)
with the holes lined up I suspect anything above 25amps is going straight to current leakage
... but if that's the case it should heat up real fast and show you that way... but you have a big pump on it and it may well be heating up, but the recirculation setup you have is keeping it Cool.... if that's the case you did a great job on that part ! LOL !
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so its My GUESS that its a Massive current leakage problem... and the only cure is replace the plates or plug holes some how!

perhaps a vinyl gas line will act as a plug cap both ends and try that...but you still need to stagger the holes so the current would have to go a long way to get to the other plate
...even the neutral plates... so all in all its probably easier to just replace the plates with new ones.
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sorry for the bad news !
...
Bob.....

[ROADKING]

Well Thanks for your input, However i did fix the cell with thicker gasket material, and as I told you, it will work fairly well with thin gasket and no pump or thick gasket and a pump, and they do not get over 92f either way after an hour.
 I am using koh,  and as far as how many amps you want, I have made cells like this to pull as many amps as you want, from my experience all it takes is more surface area,  It may have been an accident, and as far as me, it was (lol) but I have came up with a formula and have used it to get the amps up,  Last week I built a small cell and tried to get the cell to pass 30 amps and could not even after putting in a 1lb of koh to one gallon of water, Now this was hot and yes I had a few burns on hands (I now use gloves).  After doing this I also wasted a constant current pwm  That was when I went back to drawing board, place of purchase for pwm.  I talked to the ccpwm builder and he told me that the koh mixture too strong, would definitely burn up the pwm, So that is when I started new cells and so far a good improvement.