Mini Arc Reactor ?

[Bob]

ok well "yuwilm" got me thinking about this and I can't get it out'a my head now LOL
....
He was thinking of trying to make a Miniture Arc reactor to make the Hydroxy gas for the car...
and the more I think on it the more I like the idea, ...at first it sounds like an expensive indevor... but when you think about it it may be able to be made from automotive Junk ...and brother do I have allot of that laying around on the Ranch here ! HAHAHAHA
....
the way I understand it... an arc reactor uses no electrolyte just normal water...
the high voltage arc is used to blast appart water molicules by making the Arc of electricity under water.... simple as that.     we all have seen arc welders under water on the science channels and it never ceses to amaze me that you can actually weld underwater! ...but how you'ed see what your welding... is beyond me because of all the bubbles...
 and from what I understand,  those bubbles are browns gas !...
****** I don't know this for a fact, so if I am in error please tell me!*****
...
so how can we go about making a small reactor like that ?
 how about a spark plug in a pipe,... and spark the spark plug ?
how about a bunch of spark plugs all around the pipe all sparking ?
...will a spark plug even spark under water ?  ( I am almost certain it will!)
so to do that what would it take ?  a proformance raceing coil should do the trick
a old distributor,(points type) a small 12v motor to turn it... a few switches and battery and a thredded pipe should do the trick...
...
so how about this ... a 4" galvinized pipe with a cap on the bottom (or even a 2")
drill and thred the holes for your spark plugs near the bottom, staggering their placement so
the bubbles will not interfeer with the ring of plugs above it... say 4 on the bottom 4 on the next level up 45deg. to the first set of holes...
put in your spark plugs... fill the pipe with water, ground the pipe to the Battery with a hefty ground cable, and hook the high tension leads from the distribiture to the plugs...
the coil would be hooked up like normal to a conventional points ignition system.... so when the distribiture is turned the spark plugs fire....
motor speed could be controled if needed, to see what peek LPM is at....
turn on the motor that turns the distribiture and fires the plugs.... the gap in the spark plugs could be widened a bit to produce as much gas as possable say 30~35 thou. gap....
...
Now IF the plugs fire under water, there should be a small bubble formed at the electrode of each spark plug.... and because the motor turning the distribiture is turning fairly fast a bunch of bubbles should be seen rising to the surface.....
 the question is then...is that gas Browns Gas or not ?
....
if that idea is sound, you could run as many distributors as your hart desired to get as much Hydroxy gas as you want ! and it would use far less electricity than the usual method of brute force electrolisys ....(I would think anyway.)
...
Someone needs to try this and see if it works or not ! LOL
we may all throw away the cells and switch to the Mini Arc reactor !
....
any thoughts People ??
....
Bob........


(this is what happens when you eat 2 cans of "Smoked Kippered snacks" at 3:00am ! LOL)

[crb]

Bob,
How many amps do you think you will have to pump
across the electrodes?
Just guessing but I think more than a spark coil.
How about your arc welder?
crb

[Bob]

Humm good point !
a ignition coil puts out around 15k to 30k volts but does it at the expense of the amperage and drops the amperage to the milliamps in the proccess !
...the arc welder uses Many amps, obviously upwards to 300amps at times at 110v...at least mine does...
............
I don't know if the Lack of amperage in the voltage Arc through the plugs would make a difference or not.... more than likely it would, as I have found in my experiments that it takes the amps to make electrolysis  work.... and the voltage and be just about anything.
...
 E=I*R according to Ohms Law, but I have no idea of the resistance of a ignition coil. and I'ed need that to calculate the amps used... regardless of the voltage...
I am guessing that the working amperage is about the equivalent of 2 to 4 amps. and thats not much for a Hydroxy cell using the brute-force method!
...
Hummmm
...
Bob.

[Bob]

If Memory Serves.... (and it usually is in error with me,<grin>. ) I read on the Web about an Arc reactor that was made to produce Hydroxy gas and from it they harnissed the hydrogen and oxygen seperately. the big unit they made spat out an arc continiously underwater, and was fairly long if I remember correctly...(a few inches long perhaps)... the Amperage Needed was enormiss and the voltage was way up there in the Hundreds of thousands of volts.
a complicated mechanical unit was used to start the arc and spred it out and Maintain a certain distance as it ran.... and its output was something like 200LPM !
the problem was it cost more to operate than the Hydrogen and oxygen Harvested was worth!
... I think it was done at MIT or some place like that but a Google of "ARC Reactor" should bring it up.
...
this makes it very difficult to Miniturize ! the sheer scale of the one they built was huge!
but I think at least exploring the possibilities of an arc reactor is a great idea.
...
 pound for pound they Succeeded in making more Hydroxy gas than anyone has ever done before.
...
  IF we figure that the Amperage is a Necessity, ( and I believe it is) then its My guess that aout 200amps will be needed to produce 20LPM.... which is a good round number for us to play with.
short of winding my own transformer which I used to know how to do at one time, (I'ed play heck doing it now), I know the transformers in an arc welder can handle that many amps and can maintain an arc of 1/4" for hours on end... the problem is How to make a 220vac Arc welder "Portable" and Powered too !
  but this is already taking on the dimensions of a truck bed sized Hydroxy generator !...perhaps getting 20LPM will be that big ...just because 20LPM is allot of gas ! LOL
...
but this has the same problems as the one at MIT has , you had to have a complicated mechnisum to strike the arc and maintain the distance.... which is way beyond most of us ! but the auto ignition system doesn't have to have this ! ... so why not merge the two together so at the touch of a button the capacitor will fire and start the Arc and the welder can take over once its arcing ?... much heavier electrodes can then be used out of Tungsten so they would not need to be used up all the time. And /or perhaps a Pulseing Arc... one that is not On constantly
would use much less power but still arc at continious intrivals... giving the same results as a constant arc. just less output (much like the spark plug idea)
so I wonder if a distributor can be used to power a Arc welder's ARC or use a PWM which would be better by far....
...
I wonder if you can even buy 1/2" Tungsten Steel Rod 6" long.... then how would you point one end ? that stuff is so hard it is used to shape grinding stones! ...
don't bother and use it as it comes I guess ! LOL
...
Don't mind me I am rambleing again !  hehehehe
still working on the idea...
anyone got any sujestions ?
...
Bob.......

 

[hydrotinkerer]

then its My guess that aout 200amps will be needed to produce 20LPM....

Bob,
      There are dry cell setups putting out 8-10lpm using less than 20amps now. They use recified a/c to power them.

[janmarsh]

then its My guess that aout 200amps will be needed to produce 20LPM....

Bob,
      There are dry cell setups putting out 8-10lpm using less than 20amps now. They use recified a/c to power them.

Hi Hydrotinkerer,  When you say rectified a/c,  is it a.c. or d.c. at cell ?   Would be grateful for further info or links.

                                                                Marshall.

[hydrotinkerer]

Sorry that is about 120 volts dc at the cell.

[biggy boy]

If you guys would like:
I work for One of Canada's largest Collages. They have an under water skills course and a big part of it is under water welding.
We have a pool and a lake they dive and weld in. I watch them do it,
the welders/divers have video cameras on their diving helmets so that the instructors can watch them weld.
I've watched this several times myself.
I can talk to the instructors and get what ever info you need. IE what voltage they run, AC or DC.....

What do you think?

[Bob]

Welcome back Hydrotinkerer ! Long time no hear !
Boy I'ed like to know more about that cell that gets 8~10LPM at 20 amps !  that is way beyond anything I have ever gotten !
 that almost sounds"Too good to be true!" but I'll entertain any ideas LOL !
 Now I Remember you have made a few Dry cells and got them doing very well as far as production is concerned... Have you obtained anything near what these other guys report at 8~10.lpm at 20Amps?
   Do you have a 12vdc to 110vac inverter , and a PWM so you can control the amp draw? if so You might be able to try that yourself !
...(you'ed have to control the amp draw or fry your inverter, but you can do that with the electrolyte !)
...
I'm still working hard on the Ranch and really haven't had the time to work on Cells lately.
Our Water supply (Spring fed) had reached a point that it was not keeping up with our usage...
and upon inspection the springs were so choked with roots that they were cutting off the flow of water...and the spring box was so cracked and leaking it was unreal... not to mention the 1ft of silt inside the spring!... So I spent all of the last 5 days trying to repair that...
only to discover that my sealing hasn't done the job... so I lined it with a plastic sheet this evening and am Hoping tomorrow I can pump water again and fill our Water tower!
...but we shall see !
....
Biggyboy ! if the opportunity arises you might ask what the differences are between a Marine arc welder and a conventional BUZZ-BOX... that will tell us a bunch of information right there!
... and ask the Instructor if the bubbles coming off the welding process are Browns gas and Co2
or just what they are exactly ...it may veri widely with the welding rod used and metal being welded which I suspect... but the main question of all of this is, if the Arc of the weld is actually ripping the water molecules apart or not....
  (And I am sure they Have to use DC to weld underwater.)
( have him analyze the gas bubbles  ! HAHAHAH)
....

Bob..

[hydrotinkerer]

Sorry Bob I have been really busy buying new house and all the headaches with that process and I have been looking to change jobs. Things have also slowed down I think because of gas prices and what not.

The cells are 60 plates with only one pos and one neg. The rest of the plates are bipolar. We run regular household a/c to a variac and then to a bridge rectifier then on to the cell. The variac makes it easy to adjust the voltage where the cell is most efficient. The plates are 6x6 with a 1/2 gasket around the edge. The gaskets are 1/16" thick. We are stil playing around with stuff like hoses, reserviors, and even the holes in the plates made a big difference in production.

So far with 2 cells made the same way by 2 different people with more being made. So far they both work the same and put out the same. Right now we are changining all the hoses for larger ones because at 8-10lpm 1/4 and 3/8" are not big enough to move that much gas.

[biggy boy]

....
Biggyboy ! if the opportunity arises you might ask what the differences are between a Marine arc welder and a conventional BUZZ-BOX... that will tell us a bunch of information right there!
 

OK I'll ask those questions!
I know for sure because he already told me that it produces an explosive gas.
He told me if they are welding inside of a vessel,tank under water they need to drill a hole in the top of the tank to let the gas escape out.
He said if the gas is aloud to pool at the top of the tank it can get ignited under water and cause a huge explosion.
He said it has happened on job sites and divers have been killed.

[biggy boy]

OK boys and girls here's the scoop

The instructor told me they use an Miller brand DC Inverter Arc Welder.
Model number XMT 304 CC/CV=(constant current/constant voltage)

They set the welder up at approx 80 volts open circuit, before the arc is stuck.
The amperage is set at about 175 amps.
Once the arc is stuck the voltage drops to around 16-30 volts but the amperage stays at around the 175 amp range.

He went on to tell me that the Cathode produces the hydrogen and the anode the oxygen. But we already know that LOL
He also said that up to 62% of the gas coming off the arc can be hydrogen, he did say there would be other small amounts of other gas byproducts of welding with a rod......

The rod they use are sort of like normal arc welding rods Sort of!!!! They have different property to help the weld to work better under water.
Is there anything else you would like me to ask him?

Glen

[Bob]

Oh KOOL ! thanks Glen ! that answered allot of my questions ! WOOOOHOOO !
thats all I can think of at the moment.
thank you very much !
....
Hydrotinkerer:
 thank you for the info !  sounds like your making leaps and bounds in advancements over there !
GOOD WORK !  ....
  You have answered a few questions that we have had here in the Hydroxy Hut forum....for some time now... can AC be used to power a cell.... and the answer is , Sure if you convert it to DC before it enters the cell ! LOL !
...but using the 110vac from household current is a sharp way around the power-supply problem !
so where do you get your Variac ? and what value is it... what do I look for ? I want to try that!
.... Come to that please explain real quick what a Variac IS.... sounds like a DC motor speed control to me ... am I right ?
...
I'ed love to add to your research.... and would if I knew how to make what ya got there ...
because I will find a way to make it "MOBILE" for my truck ! HAHAHAHHA!
....
Any more info you can throw at me would help although I think I understand the cell (man what a monster!) I'm still a bit fuzzy on the Powering it !
 ... I know your busy, so answer when you can ! I'll understand if it takes ya a while... new houses are more important !   Hang in there !
....
Bob........

 

[Manta]

Bob,

Variable ac (variac)  Probably best described as a transformer where you can tap of a variable ac voltage from one winding by rotating a knob.  I have a small one that is 220 volt in and 0 to 120 volt out.  But it is only a very low wattage unit.

Manta

[hydrotinkerer]

Here is one of the variac's that is in use on one of the cells.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Variable-AC-Output-Transformer-MAX-30A_W0QQitemZ120469638304QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item1c0c8ccca0&_trksid=p3911.c0.m14

You don't have to have one but it sure make adjusting the voltage per plate easy.

[Bob]

ok thanks for the link !
and thanks Manta for the info !
...
Hydrotinkierer.... so what voltage are you running per plate then ?
... I'm trying to figure out How "I wouldn't have to have one" heheheheh...lets face it I don't happen to have $110.00 in my pocket to get one of those nifty things at the moment!
...
<GRIN>
Bob....
 

[hydrotinkerer]

The cells have 60 plates that would run 2v per gap.

[Bob]

OK thank you very much !
Bob......