Making my "Switch Plate Cover RANDY CELL"

[Bob]

well, I got the plates all drilled and all that...
they LOOK flat as can be !
BUT....
  On assembly I cannot get the suckers to conduct correctly !
I have tried about every conceivable combination yet proper conductivity eludes me...
I ether have one or 2 plates not making contact at ALL or a few shorting out from touching other plates... after about 6 attempts to assemble the cell not ONE time has it checked out electrically! (with the VTOM)
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I have tried wider spacing, yet there still seams to be a problem making contact on some plates
....and it hit me.... I had the same problem trying to make the Original Randy cell! it TAKES the SHIMSTOCK to make the conductivity WORK !
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SO.... its back to the shop and a round with bloody fingers AGAIN!
(that stuff is really SHARP!)
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 I'll let ya know how it goes !
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Bob.......

[Bob]

Howdy All !
 Some of you have been following my new cell design so I figured I'ed let ya know how its going.
I tried very hard to make this cell close spaced but failed miserably! Try as I might I just couldn't get the correct continuity to each plate.
...so while I was at the Hardware store today I picked up a bunch of stainless steel half nuts or Jam nuts... ( yah I actually found some! and bought all they had! 23 of them) at .25c each ! OUCH !
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I forgot to buy 1/4" stainless steel washers unfortionately so I used the normal steel ones I had on hand ( which I will regret later I am sure!)
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I used 2 of the 2 pocket folder insulating washers that I have already made up ages ago on each side of the Vinal gas line O-Rings... with a steel washer top and bottom of each plate insulating stack.
the plate spacing came out to very close to 1/4" spacing,  so I don't know if this cell will produce very much at all to be honest!
the Assembly was stright foward and went off without a single problem... all 11 Wall-switch plate covers have the correct continuity as they should... the very first try !!!
   Any one can make this cell... its a cinch !
 the big question is does it produce worth a darn or not ! LOL !
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Each plate is held down by a Half-nut,on both S.S.bolts before the next plate is put on... so checking every plate as it goes together is easy... although I found it unnecessary after 6 plates as they all were perfect!
I am thinking that I can make up for some of the wide spacing with stronger electrolyte, although that in the past has had dubious results... and because of that, I feel there really is no substitute for closer spacing !.... but that is what this cell turned out to be... 1/4" wide plate spacing so I figure I'll give it a try and see what it does !
with 11 S.S. switch plate covers as the plates it looks to be a fairly nice medium sized cell bigger by far than a Randy Cell and super simple to assemble.
its designed to be a "IN A DIP" Cell... and although I havn't calculated what the plate area is nor how many amps it will need to produce Like the Randy Cell (or even Close) you can bet I will before too long <GRIN>
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here's a few pics of the assembled cell.
Bob....

[Bob]

Here is another Pic ... More of a 3D pic and a bit closer to show more detail... should you deside to make one like it and help me test it out !
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 I thought of a way to reduce the plate gap a bit... and that is drill only a 1/4" hole on one side of the plate and a 3/8" hole on the other side.  this will allow the nuts to hold the plate very well and there will be no need for the washers under the nut... this could save as much as 1/8" in spacing !
...a person could use just 1 nut on the grounded side of the plate...no washers at all and then along with the insulators and O-Ring on the other side have 2 washers  to even out the stack... sense the grounded side of the next plate will be right above that the nut should securely hold the insulated side just fine.... although care will have to be taken to make sure the O-Ring is in the proper position
before tightening down the nut above it... this should be easy enough to accomplish !
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any way ...heres that pic.
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Bob....

[Bob]

Now the calculations.....
its easy to see that this cell has about 2.5 times the area of a "Randy Cell" however the wide spacing will really throw my calculations off... so its really hard to say what will be attained...
but if I ignore the wide spacing I can get a "MAXIMUM POSSIBLE" Output.
so lets do that....
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((Being that much Bigger than the "Randy Cell" which is powered at 20 amps, a quick guess of 50amps would be the right amperage to run this cell at.... and at the 10:1 ratio that makes the output at 5LPM IF EVERYTHING IS PERFECT!))

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 11 switch plate covers in parallel. (disregarding plate spacing!)
1 switch plate cover is 2.75"wide X 4.5" long= 12.375sqr inches (one side)
11 switch plate covers=136.125sqr inches
to keep the amps per square inch at the "Randy cell" Level. I have to mutiply by 0.5 amps per sqr inch....(at closest estimate that is what I have in my notes)

****OUTPUT****

136.125 X 0.5= 68.062 Amps.( giving  6.806LPM output )
 ...or
136.125 X 0.25amps=34.031 amps.

.03636 X 136.125= 4.9 LPM  at 49.495 amps
.025 X 136.125 = 3.403 LPM at 34.0 amps
************************************************************
that's what my cell I just made should put out in LPM if I use that much amperage... IN THEORY!
BUT that is NOT taking into consideration the wide plate gap and that in my experience has always had a detrimental effect on cell output....
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more than likely I will tear down the cell and replace the steel 1/4" washers with Stainless steel washers before I bother testing it anyway, and I might try to see if I can get the plates closer together at that time.
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another thing that will make a HUGE difference is how High of amperage I "CAN" pull through the cell, simply because wider spaced plates draw fewer amps than their counterparts
so it may well be only possible to draw 25 amps MAX with the cell the way it sets , even with the KOH at the saturation point for the electrolyte !....and if that's the case the output will be exceedingly LOW as compared to my calculations ! and  there is Little you can do about that.
 It is what will Make or Break a cell design.... How much amps you "CAN" get through it!
I have made cells that only gave me 10amps Maximum draw.... obviously the output was pathetic!
....so remember that the Electrolyte Concentration will Not always give you High amp draw!
what determines the AMP DRAW is a Function between Plate spacing AND Electrolyte concentration
that is what brings about How much continuity you get between the plates... and its that continuity that determines how many amps you can Draw.
....it should be interesting to test !
Bob....

[Bob]

Unfortunately, I haven't got around to testing that cell yet... been too busy with my Woodgas project... I do think I will disassemble it and replace the steel 1/4"washers with stainless steel 1/4" washers....though ! so there is little sense in testing the silly thing now.
...but the design did finally get built and checks out electrically for continuity on every plate like it is supposed to do.  which is a major accomplishment to me ! LOL
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Bob.......

[Bob]

I believe the Major reason that "Close Spacing" didn't work very well with this "Switch plate cover material is because of the stamped concave shape of each plate...
there has been one fella that took the time to flatten each plate with a hammer and anvil and his cell worked but not very well if I remember correctly...
 the reason I haven't flattened each plate is because of the inherited strength that the stamped concave shape gave each plate. that and knowing that I'd never get every plate completely flat
means closer spacing would be imposable that way as well.
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Although the plates on this cell are 1/4" apart they are at a consistent distance. which is a good thing. 
if 12vdc @ 50 amps doesn't work I will try to up the voltage... perhaps even power it with my 12vdc/110ac inverter...and see what that does...
by increasing the voltage input I should be able to get more power through the cell.
I will be happy if I can get 4 to 5LPM out of this cell... if I do I will put it in the truck and then build another one to run in parallel with it.
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I seriously doubt 8LPM will power my truck 100% even if its flat and level with no load and a wind at my back, 10LPM might... but I seriously doubt 8LPM would... so I will just ADD the Hydroxy gas to the trucks system and see how good of gas mileage I can get...
if I find that the truck does indeed run fairly good on that much Hydroxy gas alone that's another story.... running 3 of these cells is not that unreasonable ! especially if it means no gasoline at all ! although I will need more equipment like a BIG alternator and perhaps a large inverter...to be able to drive without the need for gasoline would justify that expense!
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Bob.....

[Bob]

Ok, this is picking up from where I left off AGES ago.

 I have a "Switch Plate" cover cell that has 10 plates in Parallel
... I know from my previous research that a amperage to plate ratio of .3 to 1sqr inch is the amount of amperage I want to run this cell at....
the plates are 2.75" wide by 4.5" long and are concaved on the edges by 3/16" at a bout a 45 degree angle
I figure the concave portion is small enough to ignore in the whole Sachem of things, so I'll go with the outside dimensions and call that one plate area.
2.75x4.5= 12.375" per plate  times 10 plates = 123.75"

 SO....123.75" total for Plate area of this WET cell
if I take the Plate Area times the Desired Amperage per square inch of .3 that gives me 37.125 amps. (checking the math, 123.75/37.125=3.3333 APSI just the decimal point is off , but it should be .3333 I am fairly sure!)
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I found a hard plastic container with a air tight top for $6.50 at walmart that the cell will fit into easy. (its a 60oz. square by Better Homes)
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Now... I wanted to make the cell to run on 40 amps... and according to the figures its real close to that... only 3 amps off in fact, so I don't even have to add another plate to it.... but I am curious as to what ONE more plate would do to the APSI  so lets run the figures for 11 plates instead of 10 plates.
11*12.375"=136.125" for the cell
136.125*.3=40.8375 Amps..... so almost 41Amps....so almost a 3.8amps difference
.... I think i will have trouble getting the electrolyte to pull 40 amps ! so with the cell in the container I will make the call weather to add or subtract plates to the cell
in order to get the Amps per square inch in the target area.
these plates are spaces at 5/16" apart... that is a long way! but it is as close as I could get them using Half nuts between each plate so each plate is electrically secure.
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I used stainless steel throughout the cell except for the INSULATORS which is the 4 pocket nylon folders used in the "Randy cell".... 1/4" Vinal hose is used as "O"Rings, sliced very thin and slipped around the stainless steel 5" bolts
sense one bolt will be connected to the positive terminal and the other to the Negative terminal the plates are staggered +-+-+- through the stack... in Parallel fashion
stainless steel 1/4" washers clamp and electrically connect each plate on both sides
this does away with the hard to deal with Stainless steel Shim material but makes spacing very wide....
 because of the plate spacing I am not going to be real surprised if the output is really LOW... but we shall see what we shall see... I am hoping that if I can get a 40 amp draw or at least a draw that will give me .3APSI that the output will be good regardless of the spacing.... I may indeed have to remove a Plate or two to get it in that ball park area however.... this is totally dependent on how much amp draw I can get through the electrolyte and cell combination.
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THIS EXPERIMENT Should go a long way in Explaining some of the "Plate spacing problems or beliefs.
the current belief of "closer the better" may not necessarily be so. if I can get a 10:1 Amp/output Ratio from this cell it will tell us that the most important thing is the APSI Ratio is more important than plate spacing ! ...if the output is un usually LOW,even though the APSI is where it should be... then the plate spacing is the ONLY thing to blame.
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 I chose this design because it was SUPER SIMPLE and FOOL PROOF... anyone can build this thing, and it should be robust enough to handle anything you can throw at it!
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as far as Output goes.... we shall see shortly I hope ! I'll let you know when I test it!
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I moved this post to this thread I started ages ago as it is just a continuance of that cell development.
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Bob....

[Bob]

I have to remember to replace the steel washers with stainless steel ones before I go much further !
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I got the cell in the container and it looks like its going to work really well...
I am planning on using the "Flooded DRY CELL" Idea to use the out going HHO gas bubbles to power the circulation of the Electrolyte in the Electrolyte container... sense the container the cell is in is far too small to have any cooling capacity at all, a external tank of about 1 gal will be used ... the rising bubbles will simply power the circulation of the Electrolyte.
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Bob.....

[Bob]

ok I re worked the cell again and put 7 plates in the cell the plates are spaced at a tad less than 1/4" apart.... "QUITE WIDE Spacing"....
 I put 5 packets of lemonaid Koolaid in the cell and shook it up good.... the container holds
about 3 liters of water.
... after charging the battery of the truck and getting it to run , I did a LPM test
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 at 25 amps I got 1/4LPM !
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 Obviously that's not enough to Piss at ! I'm quite disappointed I thought it would do better than that !...
 perhaps with more plates it would do better but I kind of doubt it.... I think its the plate separation that is shooting it down from the git-go !
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OH well.... at least I tried ! LOL
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Bob.....