Hi there!

[biggy boy]

I really like the idea of fins. I missed out on a great opportunity the other day at Wal Mart. They replaced all the 1/4" PVC on 3 big doors and I didn't get with the maintance guy in time to grab it before he threw it all in the compactor. We could have all had enough PVC to make Tero cells for ever!
Tink

Bummer

Do you think a teflon cutting board would work for ends?

[Tink]

I think any plastic that would stand up to moderate heat would surfice. Just to be safe I'd use something that would not melt, worp or shrink at 200 degrees sustanined heat.

Tink

[Tink]

Some of us have been known to melt Sch 40 PCV with these hho generators

[Bob]

Manta: Technically No...because Perpetual motion  can't have a fuel that it can run out of, and if the cell runs out of water everything  stops.
...
I am Skeptical that it will work as I plan as well, but the figures tell me it will work and to me that makes it worth trying !
  it wouldn't be the first time the figures Lied to me , I made a Centrifical engine one time that should have been able to lift itself off the ground with centrifical force alone, but hidden in the mechinisum was a equil and oppisit reaction that I didn't see the end results were supprizeing...it just set there spinning.... the pull it did generate was so small that I gave up on the mechanical version and will try Hydrolics later !
...
you can Only be Positive about a consept when you are Positive that you have considered ALL aspects of the device.... and at this point I am only Purdy sure I have ! LOL
...
Biggy Boy:  the cooling fin idea is a good one ! I also have designed a few generators useing the same idea, and I believe it will work to your advantage when its in operation....
the problem is your electrical hookup... Many people use the Neutral plate method with good results, but I don't like that method at all, as to me its wastfull.  it is much easier to do however... but you have problems of current leakage which can result in a major loss in output.
   In a dry cell design such as you described, you will need holes in the cornor of your plates inside the gasket area in order to allow the gas to escape as well as a hole in the oppisit cornor to allow  fresh electrilyte to enter between the plates.... this will be the source of the current leakage and there is no way around it...that I know of.
.... I have used Plexy Glass for end caps on cells but with vering results... they break quite easy and need more holes in the metal to spred out the pressure and they will melt if the temp gets too high.  the cutting board I think is a good idea if you keep the heat down but do yourself a favor and plan on 6 or 8 bolts to hold the thing togather not just 4...
 (you can insulate the bolt from the plates with a short length of vinal gasline over the bolt, and incert it through the hole that way.)
....
As Tink says you can melt plastic... just about any Kind of plastic, because the heat gets so high on these things... so expect High heat, and Plan on a good cooling system and you should have no problems !

.....
Bob......

[Bob]

Biggy Boy:
Also a word of advice... Orentent your cell to where it sets with the corners up and down... not horizontal ...that way the gas can escape without having to "Find its way out"....
in other words... if its square , instead of setting it FLAT set it on a peek of its corner...
 that way the corner that is up can have a hole in the plate to let the gas escape and one in the bottom to let the water come in... 
  this is allot better than having all your plates setting in a BUBBLE of gas on one side because the cell is setting horizontally. if you set your cell horizontally you can loose as much plate area
on every plate as it takes the bubble to build up and go out the holes.... standing the cell on its corner cures this problem.
...
even tilting the cell a bit will help that aspect a great deal.
...
Bob.....

[biggy boy]

 
   In a dry cell design such as you described, you will need holes in the cornor of your plates inside the gasket area in order to allow the gas to escape as well as a hole in the oppisit cornor to allow  fresh electrilyte to enter between the plates.... this will be the source of the current leakage and there is no way around it...that I know of.
 
 

Bob the BB smack design does not use the holes through the plates at the bottom to equalize the fluid level so there is no current leakage. the cells are totally isolated from one and other. He uses an ingenious design to fill the individual cells and another simple method to balance the fluid level in the individual cells.

If you watch his youtube videos he explains how it works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyMA7x2wfV0&feature=PlayList&p=AFE0C21ED792D60B&index=0&playnext=1

and then watch his videos on how to build the cells he shows you how to make the filling and leveling, parts very cool!

[Bob]

Biggy Boy:
... Ok so no holes in the plates... but if the electrolyte can touch all the plates at once you will still have a current leakage...as I said there is no way around it because the electrolyte is what causes the current leakage...unless you had 7 seperate containers supplying each seperation between the plates... you can't fool the electricity to go in only one direction... it will flow any way it can...when your using a medium like electrolyte.
...
 Sorry I can't watch the you-tube video on my super slow Dial-up connection...but I'll take your word for it.... I asume he made some connection outside the plates for the electrolyte to flow in
instead of having holes in the plates... but it amounts to the same thing....
what causes the current leakage is the Electrolyte's continuity... the same thing that makes a cell work, also makes it work against itself...there is a small amount of electrical energy that is consumed by the resistance through the electrolyte... this is what causes heat in a cell
but the major heat is made by the plates and their function of generating the gas. these 2 things comprise the total heat in a Hydroxy cell not counting resistance which is always a factor in any electrical curcuit.
...
 Build your cell Man... time is a'wasteing! even if you get it wrong, you will have learned what NOT to do ! <GRIN>

You can do it !

Bob......

[Bob]

 Incedently, Bob Boyce made a huge cell that had 101 plates each plate was seperated from the next one via the tight fitting case... and if the top edge of the plates were cept above the water level there can be no current leakage in that cell, although he had to regulate the liquid between the plates carefully it can be done... but I believe he wound up just letting the electrolyte flow over the top of the plates so they were all easier to keep full... sense he had so many plates he needed to feed the cell with more voltage and amps and wound up feeding it with a 220 AC/DC inverter and feeding the cell with 220vdc.... his output was Astronimical ! at 54LPM if memory serves me correctly...
that is the highest output I have hurd of for a Plate type cell ....SO high output can be achieved!
....
for all intense and purposes you can really disregard the current leakage problem. well, at least I do
...simply because I favor the "Cell in a dip" method of cell design, where a cell is setting in a container of Electrolyte and is surrounded by the electrolyte on all sides.... obviously current leakage will be more prone in such a design as compaired to a Dry cell....but even at that it is nonimal... so I don't even worry about it ! HAHAHAHA
I figure the greater cooling ability of a "Cell in a Dip" design makes up for the Current leakage problem.
  However you can make a recirculating system for your Dry cell quite easily by having a container of electrolyte hooked to the intake and output ports of the cell and have the Intake higher than the output.... as the gasses flow out of the cell into the container they suck in fresh electrolyte to replace the expelled gas... in essence making a pump to circulate the electrolyte....
this method is called the "Flooded Tero-cell" Method , a fella' designed it and I thought it such a good addition to ANY Tero-Cell that I dubbed it the "Flooded tero-Cell design" along with its maker.
 a few of my designs have the recirculation tank with them in the designs section so you can look and understand how it works easy.
...
 Limmiting your Amp draw to 30 amps is going to limit your output to about 2.5LPM at max if everything works out perfectly....  because your LPM output is directly connected to the Amps you use.
running such a big cell as you plan to make at 30 amps your output will probly be closer to 1.75LPM or 2LPM  because of the LOWER AMPS PER SQUARE INCH of plate area.... so you can see the importance of keeping your plate area down ...especially if you are limited in the amount of amps you can use.
....
a quick for instance: I made a cell that had something like 24 plates (normal steel!) and had them at 1/16" spacing and I expected Huge amounts of gas from the cell... I hooked it up and I got 1/4LPM at 20 amps ! so I figured that the plate area may be TOO MUCH, so I took off 4 plates and tried it again...and got 3/4LPM at 20 amps.... this got me to thinking that I could tune the cell to max output
by removing plates until the LPM drops... and then back up to the last plate number... which I did... I wound up with 6 plates I think at 2LPM at 20 amps.... and that was peek output... I could not get any more output no matter what I did.... except increase the amperage I increased the amperage  and had to do all that plate swapping all over again...and wound up with 4LPM but the amps were at 50amps
so pound for pound I was loosing efficiency by going bigger/more plates.
that cell was an experiment made from electrical box covers with the cornors trimmed off so they would fit in a 4" ABS pipe... I still have it although I put all 24 plates back on it and Hooked it to my welder to see what it would do ! ...I blew the curcuit breaker to the house before I got a LPM reading
but it was really putting out the Hydroxy gas ! LOL !
.... one of those standing in the pitch blackness moments .....saying....ummmm    OOPS !
HAHAHAHAHA

...
Bob.

[biggy boy]

The BB Stack cell that I'm making:
The BB stands for Bob Boyce, because he was the original designer of this type of cell.
It's also known as a tero cell.
I can control the wetted plate area (sq inches) by the fluid level in the cells.
As you have stated with only holes near the top of the plate. If the fluid level is kept down you will not have any fluid crossing between the cells.
Time will tell how it all works out, the experimenting is the fun part for me.
I'll be able to control the amp draw with the PWM I'm making. Have all the components now. I just need to get around to etching the circuit board I designed.

[Bob]

Biggy Boy:
  I hope when making your PWM you make it to handle as many amps as you can.... like don't stop at 30 amps... shoot for 80 to 100amps if at all possable. the reason I say this is easy to see, because as you progress in building your cells you will more than likely find the need to draw more and more amperage.
because of adding more and more cells or just simply powering the cell with more and more amperage.
.... Sense my Eyesight is so poor and I havn't been able to afford glasses in 15 years I havn't set down to build a PWM myself <GRIN>.... I really like the simplicity of the 555 timer used to make a PWM and then just "crow-bar" a bunch of heavy transisters to handle the high amps. but I am not an Electronics expert by any means, just a Ham that dabbles in electronics every once in a while hehehe, so I don't know if that is a better way to go or not.
... I am sure you will get it working, good or bad, and then improve upon it from there !
the experimenting part is what is the most fun for me as well.... to see what it does, and understand why it does what it does, when it does something unexpected !!!!!
....
 I have discovered that over the 10 or so cells I have made to date that the design is not so important as the execution of making it.  which means to me, that how ever you get the metal in the Electrolyte
isn't so important as its spacing and consistency in spacing, and the way it gets power to the plates.
....however there are others out there that would differ with me on that subject... John swares by the tube cell aproach... with good reason shown in his results, and others like the Dry cell approach,
and some still would rather have the "Cell in a Dip" for verious reasons.
....
 what I'm saying here is about the best you can hope for in cell output is 1LPM per 10 amps of power
and that is MAXIMUM output that you can expect...in other words 20 amps would get you 2LPM, 40amps=4LPM
...but anywhere even near these figures...is considered really good output,  and oddly enough I have seen this kind of output from just about any cell configuration... so the Design becomes less important
....so.... if its not the cells design that makes the output...then what is it ?
 Hydroxy gas generation is a mathematical function of whetted plate area,Amperage used,and electrolyte continuity. Minus all the resistances found in the circuit.....
 this means that if you take a two, 1"square plates and feed them with 1 amp you will always get the same output, no matter HOW they are placed next to each other... the only thing that effects their output is their proximity to each other...the closer they are the more they produce. (but they cannot touch).(this correlates to the Electrolytes continuity, the closer the plates are the more continuity they have.)
so if you can build a cell with hardly any RESISTANCES in the circuit, chances are you will have a really good performer....
... this leads me to believe that Any stack of plates that are say 1/32"~1/16" apart will be a good producer as long as your using enough amps to get the AMPS per square inch up high enough to produce well.
...HOWEVER... this isn't always true in cell design because there are different methods of getting power to the plates... the Neutral Plate method does work, and work quite well if you use a Max concentration of electrolyte.... this demands a PWM to control the amps used, but it works !
...however if you don't use a Max concentration of electrolyte, the Neutral plate method starts to fall on its face real fast (at least that is my observation! FWIW) because the resistance of the electrolyte
hampers the excitation of the neutral plates.
  but in ANY cell, the lower the resistance to the flow of the electricity the better off you are...
so use large wires to connect to the cell and to connect to the powered plates....about 2 times as big as you think you need is a good rule of thumb ! LOL !
....
another thing.... using the Neutral Plate design DEMANDS High quality Stainless steel for plates !
metal that is NON magnetic... and some of the cheaper Stainless steel is some what magnetic and not very good for neutral plate designed cells.
 this isn't as important in parallel wired plates because each plate is hard wired to its power. and cheaper metal can be used and still have good results...
 ....
Obviously Stainless steel isn't a very good conductor, not like copper or Gold, but it resists corsion very well and in electrolysis this is very important... its the "Lesser of evils " routine... if we use copper sheets it gums up within seconds... so Stainless steel is a far better choice,even though it adds resistance to the circuit!
....
...FWIW
...
Bob.



 

[biggy boy]

Thanks Bob for the input, I always enjoy learning 

The gasket I'm using is 1/6 inch the cables to the cell and jumpers are # 6
The PMW will be using two 30 amp continues rated Power N Chanel Mosfets, for a combined 60 amp capability.
I was hoping to get 50 amp rated Mosfets but the supplier didn't stock them

[Manta]

Bob,

S'pose you were running your engine as a static unit.  To drive a generator maybe.

And you were to add a condenser to the end of the exhaust stack.  How much water do you think you would get back ?

And if you were to put that water back in the cell.....

Manta

[Bob]

Hi Manta !
 I answered this once ... but it got lost in the eather I guess ! HAHAHAH
well, you'ed not get enough water back by condenceing the exhost to make up for what you use.
your removeing allot of hydrogen and oxygen and burning it and that portion is gone...used up
its no longer even in a vapor form... at least that is how I understand it... I don't think burning Hydroxy gas will give you much water vapor out the exhost either, its the Hydrocarbons in gasoline, that give you the water out the exhost pipe.... but be that as it may ,water is very easy to come by on this planet. adding a small amount every other day is child's play when it comes to tanking up with gasoline!.
....
I don't actually know what happens to the Hydrogen and oxygen molecules when they are burned
I assume they are separated into their original states without the atomic bond and float as free atoms there after... I am not sure if the atom itself is destroyed in the process or not...but I don't think so.... this is another case of too many questions and not enough answers for me ! LOL
....
 I don't have all the answers by any means, I am learning just like everyone else here HAHAHA
....
Bob.....