Hi there!

[biggy boy]

Hello
Thought I would join the forum to learn as much as I can about what I will need to do, to get my 2001
GMC Sierra 4.8 working properly.
I only have the bubbler made so far, But I have been reading and reading for several weeks.
I have picked the cell design a Tero cell.
I just need to figure out what I will need other then a O2 sensor EFIE to get it to work!


Glen

[Tink]

Biggy Boy,
Welcome to the fourm! The Tero Cell is the right choice. I'm playing with a Smack Booster design on the Tero Cell and I'm impressed. I did burn it up by trying to pump too many amps throught it and am in the process of rebuilding it. Bob and i have both used the old Smack Booster design with wall plates and I don't want to go back to that ever again, It overheats too much. My problem on the Touota 4 banger '89 vintage is overcoming the computer. I think from what I've been reading it may be easier with the newer vehicles.
Good luck,
Tink

[biggy boy]

Thanks for the welcome Tink!

After doing some more reading on the net, I think I'll try the Generation four 14 cell
 B.B.smack as in this link buy the Smack guy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UyMA7x2wfV0&feature=PlayList&p=AFE0C21ED792D60B&index=0&playnext=1

It looks promissing.


Glen

[Tink]

I do like the design but be careful not to run it more than about 16 to 18 amps because it will overheat. I was getting 1 and 1/2 LPM at 18 amps and should have left it there. I figure I'll need two of them in my little 2.4RE Toyota 4 banger. I was toying with the idea of runing two batteries and a bigger alternator to hopefully get 40 or more mpg. I really need to get power to them away from the engine though. The bubbler is not big enough either. Other than that it is promising. There are so many units out there that are total rip-offs. Smack seams to be ligit. Bob has some great info about how much HHO will be needed for various senarios.
Tink

[biggy boy]

Oh so you have built on like the BB smack ok good to know.
About needing three or more.
there sure is conflicting info on the net some forums say you need lots 1lpm per LTR motor size.
IE: my 4.8 ltr motor would need 4LMP of HHO?
Others say you don't need much to get improvments.
I guess the only way to know for sure is to try.

So what cells produce more then 1.5LPM then and don't get hot.
By the way the one I'm building right now the plate size is 8 inch by 10 inch,
not 6 inch by 6 inch like the BB smack.
Also I will be using PWM to run it they claim that keep the amps and heat down.

[Bob]

Howdy Biggy Boy ! 
sorry for the delayed welcome, but definately Welcome to the forum ! <GRIN>
there is a direct corolation between how much Hydroxy gas you inject into the engine and How much you can reduce the gasoline intake...
  you can simply add a Hydroxy cell under the hood that puts out 2LPM and get fair improvements in gas milage simply because the Hydroxy gas helps the engine burn the gasoline up so much better than without it !....
but if you intend to go for higher gas milage then you must start thinking on REPLACEING the gasoline you are useing with Hydroxy gas instead.... and that gets into very large amounts of Hydroxy gas fast!
.....
you have a large engine... and that in itself demands more Hydroxy gas....
although I like the 2LPM output per 1 Liter of eng. displacement I admit that is a Huge amount of hydroxy gas to try and come up with !  especially on a 4.5liter engine!  however if you can achieve such output you should be able to realise 75 to 80MPG in that truck if you cut the gasoline back accordingly...
  What most people are missing by adding the Hydroxy gas to the engine is that they MUST cut back on the gasoline or they will NOT see any improvement at all !  although the engine will run crisper and smother your gasmilage will remain the same as it alwayse was....and that is not what you are after!
...
Hydrotech, a friend of mine made a trio of hydroxy generators that put out 8LPM to 10LPM at engine idle
however his gas mileage only went up to about 20mpg at first,...from 11mpg thats not too bad but he had a better idea, and that proved to be true, he went through the fuel system on his truck and made extensive changes and leaned the engine out soo extreamily lean that it would barely run without the hydroxy gas being added, it bucked and fumed and farted realy bad because it was so lean, however as soon as he turned on the Hydroxy generators it cleared up and purred like a Kitten....( the Hydroxy gas made up for the lack of gasoline!) his truck was a big duely Dodge if I remember correctly and he achieved 75mpg with that truck....  that man is Addimate about one thing and that is if you don't reduce fuel to the engine you will NOT see any improvements..... and I agree with him 100%
his continued work on his truck has earned him a reputation in his home town and his fame is driving him nuts ! LOL   he swares by the tube cell design and doesn't care that much for the plate type cells at all...
...at last check he was getting around 80mpg in his monster truck and was running 12LPM into it
he is also working on  99% hydroxy gas Not quite 100% as he feels the engine needs the gasoline.
 ....
this is from Memory and My memory isn't very good at times so take it with a grain of salt.  but it shows you how extream you can go with this stuff....
...
the best results I have seen are on carberated engines, simply because they are easy to control the fuel into the engine... fuel injected engines on the other hand are a constant fight!...
unfortionately... each fuel injection system is a bit different and what works on a ford doesn't work on a dodge and all that.... even when you find a system that works on one type, the year it was made makes all the difference in the world....  so not only is it a Brand, Year,Modle and Color problem but the auto manifacturers have a tennancy not to give you good information on the Modification of the fuel injection system.... mainly because its against the law here in California !
I was told by the guy that did my SMOGG Check that it was a good thing that I removed the Hydroxy unit before I came in because he could not pass it because it was "MODIFIED" ...
...
I installed a Hydroxy cell consisting of 3 "Randy Cells" in series and at first it put out about 2LPM at about 25 to 30amps... I installed a bubbler and pop off caps and got close to 35 to 40 mpg just with that.... the cell got dirty and the output dropped and so did my MPG...I did some changes and added a "Matt Valve" to lean out the gasoline and although my output on the cells had dropped to about 1LPM I got 40 to 45MPG in my 2.4Ltr R22FE Toyota pickup... the hydroxy cell continued to drop in output
so I removed it for the winter... Supprizeingly enough my gasmilage dropped for a few days but came back up and I am getting a consistant 32MPG with just the "Matt Valve" installed and nothing else.
I was getting 40mpg with the Matt Valve alone but the engine was missing and I feared a melted piston so I increased the fuel till the missing went away... and that ofcorse dropped my gasmilage <GRIN>
I havn't got the time to build another cell now but I did find allot of my parts I had misplaced in our Move from the mountian top to the valley ! ....so I am getting ready to give it a go again.
...
I love the "Randy CELL"  its cheep to make , compact and small and a single cell will put out 2LPM at 20 amps ... and that kind of output is hard to beat !
...

Be aware that adding AMPS to a cell may well increase the Output but it also increases the heat the cell generates...
... Keep in mind if you want large outputs you will have to give it Large AMPS....there is no free lunch.
   My goal was to get my toyota truck to run on 100% hydroxy gas by the end of summer, well that won't happen because I had to move , but perhaps by spring I can do it... hard to say.
however I may not go 100% , but keep the engine idleing on gasoline anything above idle would be Hydroxy gas.... at least thats the plan... but it will take about 15 to 20LPM to do that...
but I an sick of paying $3.00 a gallon of gasoline !
...
Bob.....

[biggy boy]

Hi Bob
Thanks for the welcome and thanks for taking the time to post this information!!
I've been doing tons of reading on HHO but every bit helps.
I'll see what I can find as far as info on the Randy Cell.

So far I have a bubbler made and the plates rough cut out. Have the gasket material.
I have enough plates to make a 21 cell.

I have the circuit board designed and laid out to make the PWM, I'm ready to print and then etch the board.
Making electronic circuit boards and little projects in one of my hobbies. I make my own guitar effect pedals.

 


Glen

[Bob]

 Info on the "Randy Cell" is here in the Plans section... its a one page type plan, very simple but effective .
 Randy made 6 of the little cells and is running them in his 4x4 truck and has had good luck with them using Lemonaid as a electrolyte !   He is a Success story!
  I don't remember what kind of gas Mileage he is getting at the moment, if I recall correctly it was close to 50mpg... but I'm uncertain of that.
 His truck is a Carberated 2.5liter GMC if I remember right and has made leeps and bounds on his Hydroxy unit in improvements and in all around workings.  I have learned a bunch from that man !
his cousin Matt came up with the "Matt Valve" for his R22 Toyota Pickup and I use it on my truck as well and am trying to get Tink to put one on his truck !
....
the "Randy Cell" is a bit difficult to make because of the extreamily close spaceings and close tollerances but I managed to make 4 cells so I know it can be done.
...On the other hand , sense you have the plates for a Dry cell you just as well make that !
... the question is How many plates is going to be best for your use... and that depends on the amount of Amperage you plan to give it in operation.  you see the more plate area the more amperage you will need to make it work properly at peek output... so if you put all 21 plates in the cell you may need Hundreds of amps to get the "Amps per Square Inch" High enough to reach a good output level for the cell.
  I have discussed this verious times on this forum with others, and am certain now that the theory is correct... 
 there is more to slapping a bunch of plates togather to make a good working cell
....but not that much more ! <GRIN>
...
Bob......

[Manta]

.....from 11mpg thats not too bad ....

...and he achieved 75mpg with that truck..

Bob,  over 600% increase ?

Manta

[Bob]

hehe yah ! and whats better than that, is he installed a switch to turn off all gasoline to the engine and he actually drove it to the end of the block and back on Hydroxy gas alone... he said it was running like Shit but it did get him down there and back... it was running way too lean, not enough Hydroxy gas
however it did run and Drive that big huge truck... I think he mentioned on one of his emails that he was working on another tube cell and was planning on getting 20LPM from it and when that happens he will use gasoline to start and idle the engine only, that way the problems of Hydrogen hardening will be elimiated or at least reduced to a very small amount.
....
  its realy simple in consept, and I don't understand why people have a problem with it... Hydroxy gas explodes very well.... if we use it instead of gasoline vapor to explode in the cylinders we can run our autos on  Hydroxy gas INSTEAD of gasoline...
..... it sounds simple... but in reality its allot harder than it sounds. but it can be done... other people have done it already.... I know of 4 people that have clamed to run there cars/trucks on Browns gas alone...  The problem is getting that much VOLUME ! most American Cars have Rather LARGE engines
being Large means allot more Gas is needed to run them.
  I have calculated that 15 to 20LPM will allow me to run my R22 Toyota Pickup on Hydroxy gas alone with No gasoline at all.... and I have raised that from 10LPM just to be safe ! <GRIN>
 but look at it this way... a "Randy Cell" puts out 2LPM at 20 amps to get 20LPM I need 10 such cells
to power those 10 cells I need 200amps.... 
 10 cells is do-able!
200amps is Do-able !
but the Trick is in the details of the hookup....
...
can my truck power all 10 cells ... absoultly !
... because it can turn a 300amp altenator with no problem and still be driveable too.... I don't care if the Science Grurues say you can't generate enough gas to power the engine.... their Dead Wrong... my Math figures prove it !...
...
I'ed rather get 20LPM from 2 cells or 4 cells rather than 10.... but we have the technology to do it right now! the question is how bad do you want to say so-long to the gas-pumps? if you want it bad enough you can do it with a bunch of small cells ,and a Large Alternator.
...
  My Plan is to make as few of cells as nessarry mainly because there is upkeep to a Hydroxy cell and the more you have the more upkeep there is.
 I am hoping to make a cell that will put out 5LPM at 50amps.... then make 4 of them
feed a small pressure tank ( with a explosive pressure relief valve on it!) and feed the engine
through a simple ball valve attached to the throttle... the Hydroxy generators will all be attached to a pressure regulator switch... which turns them on and off, 2 switches, 2 generators per switch
all feeding the pressure tank.
 the fine details of Idling on gasoline and when to shut off the gasoline and all that need to be worked out yet...but it shouldn't be very hard...
 so technically my truck won't be 100% running on Hydroxy gas but as close to it as I care to go!
it should have unlimited mileage on Hydroxy gas. only needing electrolyte top offs every day or so.
and 12 gal of gasoline will allow my truck to run for months at idle , I'm fairly sure on that!<GRIN>
... my gasoline bill will drop siverly but Distilled,Deminerilized water will take its place in the form of about $1.29 a gallon and then I will be comparing my Miles per gallon of WATER ! not Gasoline!
...and I hope to use Lemmonaid instead of KOH... but that remains to be seen !...I kind'a doubt I can draw more than 40 amps using Koolaid! ...so I may have to use KOH.
....
thats my plan
the question is ...can I do it !
...
Bob.......
 


 

[Bob]

Biggy boy... er what ever it is hehehe.
8x10=80sqr inches each plate (counting only one side) if you go for .25 amps per square inch, thats
80x.25=20 amps PER PLATE !
  HOWEVER... most people don't run that much amperage,... by a long shot if the "Randy cell" has 70square inches in it and powered with 20 amps gives 2LPM that gives us a good solid starting place to calculate from.
20amps devided into 70 square inches is 0.2857 or .285 APSI
if we shoot for .285APSI on your plates at 80square inches per plate 11 plates make 880 square inches....880x.285=250.8 amps to reach the same output per square inch as that of the Randy cell
obviously thats a bunch of amps and I doubt you'ed want to run that much but if you did and all things were perfect and you had the same output per square inch as that of the "Randy cell"
you'ed have an output of over 25LPM((2/70=.0285output per square inch)(.0285x880=25.+))
...unfortionately figures like this rarely hold up in a solid test and it would more than likely be closer to 20LPM at 250amps... pound for pound not very efficient!
...but if you reduced the plates to only 5 plates beginning and ending with a negitive plate
you'ed have 5x80=400sqrin.  that fed with 0.285APSI should cost you 114amps at 11.4LPM
where you will fail in reaching these figures is at feeding the plates that MUCH amperage!
for one its almost impossable to get more than 50 or 60 amps useing even the strongest electrolyte
so you can't give it that much amperage even if you wanted to. so even at HALF the amps you'll have Half the output.... and that would put you right in line with everyone else out there.
....
you can Add more plates and raise the amperage draw that way but in so doing you lower the APSI which you don't want to do... you can make the plates real close togather and that will help but only to a small degree...
  so your delima is adding more plates and running a much lower APSI and take what it puts out
which is what most guys have done... and the output is extreamily LOW per plate area as compaired to the "Randy Cell" which is ok...as long as it works for you !
....A few guys have achieved a ratio of 1LPM per 10amps.... infact that is what I call the guage of a good cell.... 2LPM at 20amps is great output...but as you raise the amps the output doesn't increase right along with it.... it trails behind further and further the higher in amps you go.
thats why 4LPM at 40amps is almost unhurd of its more like 4LPM at 48~50amps.
...
the DOWN SIDE to this "Running High Amperage" is the generated HEAT... you can easily amagon that you can boil the water in the generator quite easily at those amps...
...thats where the "Randy cell" really shines ...it can Run all day at 20 amps and only be tepid temp to the touch...give it More amperage and all bets are off as the heat really climbs fast!
....
So the Key to any cell is having a good cooling system weather that is a big container to put your little cell in ( so its got allot of water to cool it down) or a circulating system with pumps and a Stainless steel radiator to cool down the electrolyte.... cooling is very important.
....
if it were me I'ed make a 5 plate dry cell out of those plates and feed it as much amps as I could without hurting my truck.... 40 or 50 amps and measure the output and see what I got
.... I'ed make a recurculateing bubbler/container to increase the cooling capasity.
(along with a good bubbler!) and use heavy wiring... probably #4 or #6 wire
...
and once you get one working make another, and another and another... till you can boast your truck gets the best gasmilage in the state ! LOL !
....
hope that helps
Bob....
 

[biggy boy]

Good info Bob.
I had a brain wave last night or was it an Epiphany LOL.

 Keep the plates the same size 8 inch by 10 inch, but make the gaskets say 6 inch by 8 inch then when all the plates a sandwiched together there would be the plates hanging out past the gaskets acting as cooling fins all the way around. it would help to dissipate heat. The setup I will be using is  + n n n n n - two of them in parallel. I don't want to run more then 30 amps total.

[Manta]

Biggy Boy,
Interesting concept.  Just make sure you don't get any shorts across the external plates.

Bob,

If you were to use this huge cell output just to run the engine that generates the hydroxy and not to move the truck about,  it seems to me that you would be making much more gas than you would need to run the cells,  even allowing for the alternator draw.

Doesn't this verge into perpetual motion territory.

Manta

[biggy boy]

Biggy Boy,
Interesting concept.  Just make sure you don't get any shorts across the external plates.

 

Yes that would need to be addressed for sure. The two ends that sandwich the plates together 1/4 inch PVC sheets would be bigger then the steel plates overhanging them. A person could put some mesh screen around the outer perimeter of the PVC plate to keep conductive objects from shorting out the plates. the mesh would still allow air flow.

[Tink]

I really like the idea of fins. I missed out on a great opportunity the other day at Wal Mart. They replaced all the 1/4" PVC on 3 big doors and I didn't get with the maintance guy in time to grab it before he threw it all in the compactor. We could have all had enough PVC to make Tero cells for ever!
Tink