Can a Hydroxy generator work without EFEI inhansors ?

[Bob]

the answer is simple... Yes it can... but will your car run good without the EFEI enhancers ?
good question!
....
the problem is is that not all cars are alike .... some may well work ok without the EFEI enhanser modifiers... others may not.... and I have seen advertisements on the web about "Our cell doesn't need to have any EFEI enhancers installed !...
.... and that is simple BULL !
 because its not the cell that determans weather you need a EFEI Enhansor to operate the cell correctly its the car make and model ,engine used and fuel delivery system....
  the cell simply makes Browns gas and the car engine burns it.... many older cars Pre-smog type need no additional considerations at all , just hook it in the snorkel to the intake between the air cleaner and carberator and your done....
but Most of the newer cars will need some sort of EFEI adjustment in order to see any improvement in the use of Hydroxy gas...

So don't be fooled into thinking you don't need to mess with the EFEI stuff just because you bought their cell!.... or if they can do it so can I  type thinking.... it depends on the car... not the cell
....
unfortionately what happens in most cases  is the Hydroxy gas added into the air the engine burns along with the fuel spray is sensed by the sensors in the engines exhost and or intake system and it is incorrectly adjusted for by adding more gasoline.... not less  and therefore most first trys usually show very little to no improvement in gas mileage gained.... so in MOST cases you will have to use a EFEI enhancer or adjuster or manually lean out the system yourself... in order to see any improvement by using Hydroxy gas....
...
so the statement that says I ran my car with no changes to the EFEI system and gained 28% better gas mileage is both misleading and often misinterpreted , as any car can be done this way, and thats simply not true....

[Lee Hazleton]

I've always run an O2 EFIE and a MAF enhancer. I just installed an FS2 and removed everything else.
Car runs great & no codes.

[Bob]

thanks Lee for the input there ! and welcome to the forum !
...
On my Toyota pickup (R-22,5spd 2wd) I went for the Mechanical approach instead of going to the EFI inhansors and haven't regretted a thing!.... I simply installed a "Matt Valve" (I explained what a Matt Valve is in many places on the forum already) (its simply an alternate method of leaning out a fuel injected engine.with a garden hose and valve.)

 So it can be done on fuel injected engines without the expense of the electronic gadgets.
....
whats interesting to me is that sense I started this Hydroxy stuff, I have learned that the "POINT OF injection" of the Hydroxy gas...and can make all the difference in the world !...
 I Injected the Hydroxy gas between the Mas-Air-Sensor and the intake manifold...in the snorkel tube that connects the two... I find out NOW that it may be far better to inject the gas just AFTER the air filter...so all the sensors can have their turn sniffing the gas...and the sensors won't try to counteract the Hydroxy gas (the added Oxygen will be taken into account by the computer!) this method may well do away with any need for a Leaning out system all together... but I seriously doubt it
simply because car manufacturers like to run cars richer than they need to be.
....
I haven't changed the injection point on my truck yet because the Hydroxy cell in still on the bench
but when I put it back in the truck I will try the different position and see if that helps in gaining any MPG.
....
Bob....

[Lee Hazleton]

Bob,
  Very true about the injection point. Unfortunately, there is no set point for all vehicles. Guess that's why we experiment. Most vehicles will run better if the inlet is in the air cleaner box in a corner away from the mainstream. This allows the hydroxy to mix more thoroughly with the incoming air, hence being displaced more evenly over the cylinders.

[Bob]

that's a thought ! ... but I'd worry about filling up the air cleaner box full of Volatile Hydroxy gas !
a gallon of that stuff going off under your hood would ruin your day ! LOL
that is why I adopted the strategy of turning off the hydroxy unit about 5 to 10 min before I get home...because even after the unit is turned off it will continue to produce some Hydroxy gas for a time... this depends on how long the unit has been ran and many other factors...
I do the same in town and usually turn off the unit as I pull into the parking lot.... I try to suck all the hydroxy gas out of the system before I turn off the engine.... I feel this is a good practice to get into <GRIN>
...
I plan on injecting the gas at the air cleaner connection to the intake system, not in the box, for the reason above... but sense they are in such close proximity it makes little difference because if the unit is left on for some reason it will fill the air box anyway if the engine is not running... but with the engine running there is very little chance of that happening unless your pushing more than 8 to 10LPM ....even on a smaller engine.
sense the intake on my truck is quite long I really haven't worried much about mixing the gas with the intake air much...i figure by the time it reaches the cylinders its very well mixed by then, but on some cars that is a serious consideration ! so you make a very good point there Lee thank you !
...
Bob.......

[Lee Hazleton]

Bob,
  I hear wher you're coming from, but trust me. It's better to have it in your airbox than anywhere else.
Unfortunately, my PC crashed a few months back & I lost the photos I took when my intake manifold (plastic)
exploded. Made quite a big bang, too.

[Bob]

ACK PLASTIC Intake manifold ?  how silly ! what kind of vehicle ya got so I know what not to get? LOL
I blew the top appart on the radiator found out it was plastic as well on the Toyota Cilica !
tat really cought me off guard.... Plastic radiator top I guess, if they can make plastic radiator tops they should be able to make intake manifolds too ! hehehehe just seams silly to me !
hehehe give them time and I bet they'll make the engine block out'a plastic.... its cheeper than alumimum... and Money drives changes !LOL
...
I believe ya Lee on the injection point.... but the thought of that air box filling up scares the heck out'a me..... I suppose that just means you don't forget to turn the generator off !
... sure the generator is on a relay that goes off with the ignition key... but as I said a generator will continue to make hydroxy gas for some time after shut down..... perhaps a high value resistor and Diode between the hot side of the generator and ground would take care of the "Run on" after its turned off eh ?.... Randy has a LED on his on /off switch that stays lit for about 1 minute after its turned off.... perhaps that LED is shortening the run on time by grounding it out ?  I've watched mine bubble for 5 minutes after shut down, after a long drive...
maybe I'm the only one that noticed that but seams like its not a good thing!
....
Bob.......

[Lee Hazleton]

Yeah Bob, No bull. '98 Explorer 4.0 plastic upper & lower intake.
Actually, I'm at work now and just found a picture of it on my office PC.
If ya look to the right, you'll see the top of the driver side plenum is gone!

[Bob]

Ouch ! yah I can see that a BIG section is missing !
 Hydroxy gas did that ?
...
Do you have any pics of your generator to share with us ? what is it, and how many LPM do you get from it ?
... what were the results of your adding the Hydroxy generator to your truck ? ( besides the blown intake manifold !) did you get an Increase in MPG ?
...and what size is that engine anyway ?
...
Bob.....

[Lee Hazleton]

Bob,
   Pics. of my gen. are on my page. '98 Explorer 4x4, 4.0 litre, A/T.
Cell is 6x6 304ss, 3mm Buna-N rings for gaskets. 19 plates/3 stacks/18 cells.
Output is 1 litre in 40 seconds. It took a while, but I started with 16.5 mpg and
am now getting 21.4 with the FS2 in place.

[Bob]

Thanks Lee !
Now... where is your page <GRIN>
sounds like an interesting cell design I'ed like to know more !
...
your output is about 1.5LPM which isn't bad at all really... but at how many amps ?
it sounds to me like the cell design can handle Hundreds of amps without any problem
I'm guessing your running 20 amps now but I'm wondering if you ever tried to run 50 or more amps?
...
a 4.0 liter engine is Huge ! but Hydrotech achieved over 75mpg with his big duely truck and useing extensive modifications at the time he was getting 8 or 12 LPM from his 3 cells combined...the engine
is a 6.0 liter  I think( chevy ,or GMC I think)
infact he had enough Hydroxy gas to actually run the engine down the block and back with the gasoline turned OFF.... he said it ran like Shit...but it did run !....
Some day if I'm very lucky I Hope to have 15LPM to play with in my 2.5Liter R-22 Toyota p/u....  I figure if I can get that much I can run it on Hydroxy gas alone! hehehehehe
...
Bob......

 

[Lee Hazleton]

Sorry, my 'page' is on another site. This one won't let me upload photo's. Says the file is too large.
Anywho, it's drawing 20 amps.

[Tink]

Lee,
You gotta shoot at 640x480 to be able to upoad photos here. If you are using a digital camera there should be a wayo adjust that on the camera. Or you could copy a link to the photo into your post.
Tink

[Lee Hazleton]

Thanks Tink. Here's a link to my pics on another site.
http://hhoinfo.ning.com/photo/photo/listForContributor?screenName=39kxo9r9c0kw3

[Bob]

Yah.. sorry about the size restriction guys but its necessary to keep the Megabits used in check !
300k is not much straight from a camera because their compression is minimal but if you run that same pic through a program it can drop to a mere 100k or less
I routinely post 2 800x600 pics at a time but only after running them through correl draw and saving them as a .Jpg bitmap file... makes them less than half their regular size.
...
  Actually, I hadn't realized that it was such a pain for you guys.... what size would be convenient for you to up-load  ?
I can change it !
...
Bob,.....

[Bob]

thanks for the Link Lee !
...that's a big cell !
you put many hours into making that cell ...Congrats on your accomplishments !
you even have decent size wires feeding the plates ! something most people over look ...GOOD WORK!
...
I haven't done any calculating on your cell at all but I am guessing that you could pump in 75 amps and get a really big output if you had some way of cooling down the electrolyte!
...but that means a bigger alternator, and higher amp circuit breakers and a bunch of other stuff...
but I'd really like to see your results in that truck with 1LPM per 1liter of engine displacement...
and I think you could get that from your cell !
...just a suggestion...
...
Bob...

[Lee Hazleton]

Bob,
    I looked at my camera & don't see any wat to adjust the size of photos.
I'll have to see if there's a way to make them smaller.

[Bob]

Typically its in the resolution of the pictures in the settings... my camera has "good-better-best"(of all the stupid things! God forbid you may know what a 800x600 rez is!)  hehehe anyway I haven't seen a camera yet that will allow you to size a picture AFTER you've taken it... you have to take the picture in the wanted resolution... that's how they work it.
there are many free ware programs out there on the web that allow you to re-sample a picture and make it any size you want... and usually they give you a choice of the type of file you want to save it as!
but... unfortunately I don't know where to send you to get such a program... Perhaps Feral will read this and make a suggestion...hard to say. perhaps a google search on "Picture resizing" might get ya something.
...
Have you tried more amps with that cell yet Lee ?
...
Bob....

[Lee Hazleton]

LOL   Bob, I know ya can't change the size after shooting. Damn, I'm not that dumb
I just e-mailed some to myself at work. I was able to make them smaller with the e-mail program, so I'll see if I can post them later tonight.
As far as running higher amps, haven't yet. I'm waiting for a new shipment of KOH. When I get it, I'll make a 'good'
batch of e/lyte. 28% (2lbs per gallon), then set my PWM really low & slowly raise the amps to 25. My mixture right now
is only about 15%.

[Bob]

LOL  OOOk just making sure ! HEHEHEHEHE
Didn't mean to insult your intelligence Lee... <GRIN>
not all of us are computer savy !  at one time I could do anything with the computer you'ed ever want..
including use it to turn on your house lights and such... BUT then WINDOWS came along...and if that wasn't bad enough Object Oriented Programing in C++ and Now... I just follow my Kids lead ! LOL
... I went to the Local College and got a piece of paper that said I was a computer repair tech. but after about 2000 resumes...I gave up trying to get a job in that field.... that was years and years ago
... now I'm more confuzed than ever on these computers... we don't run the computers we run Programs !
and each program can be very strange indeed !
... HAHAHAHAHAHA
 I'm still waiting for artificial intelligence ...
 then I'll tell my AI computer what I want, and keep it guessing ! LOL "pay back will be sweet!"
LOL
...
Bob......

[Lee Hazleton]

Ok, lets see if this works.
Guess it did!

[Bob]

Woot ! Fantastic ! thank you for posting those pics !
....
after looking over the monster I still don't know how you have the plates wired up...
but it looks like 3 separate cells, and using neutral plates between the powered plates looks to be 5 or 6 plates between the powered ones !
....
Definitely looks like a serious cell !
only possible problem I can see is the electrolyte inlet and outlet fittings having them 3/4" or even 1"
wouldn't hurt at all... that is if you start pushing large amounts of amperage... with 20~25amps they should do just fine !... but larger volumes say 5LPM and up need about 3/4" hose fittings...larger is better because the least bit of restriction will add to the heating problem...
....
if I had that cell on my truck I'ed pump 40 amps into it and probably get 50mpg in the proccess!
Good work!, and very well done !
...
Bob.....

[Bob]

Oh and My Kid tells me you can use "Paint" in windows to resize pictures...its not very good of a program but every one has it because it comes with windows!  ...I dunno how to do that with "Paint" but if My Kid says it can be done then you can bet on it ! LOL !
(see Tink...you had the ability all the time and didn't even know it ! HAHAHA)
...
Bob....

[Lee Hazleton]

Thanks for the 'atta-boys', Bob. I've got 5 bi-polar (neutral) plates in each stack.
That way, each cell gets 1.97 volts which is a prime target area to split the molecules.
Cell is configured: +NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN- .  19 plates, 18 cells, 3 stacks.

[Bob]

Kool Thank you !
I'ed call that 3 cells myself but that's ok ! heheh  I ain't that particular !
I'ed say 5 neutrals is about perfect for that cell because you want to keep the distance between the powered plates as close as possable...from what I understand anyway.
and as you mentioned the voltage is critical as well... I herd that 2vdc per plate is in the ball park
however I have never understood how your supposed to measure the voltage on the plates !
my cells are all parallel hookup and all receive 12~14vdc...  and I've only messed with one cell that had neutral plates in it.... haven't made a dry cell yet, but plan to...so I have allot to learn STILL!
LOL
...
Bob.......

[Lee Hazleton]

Even when I used to build wet cells I still ran 5 neutrals. That way, you can run a higher concentration of KOH with less heat.

[Bob]

You can still run a high concentration of Electrolyte running a Parallel cell, chances are you'll top out around 70 to 80 amps max (if that!) but you simply power it with a PWM if you want 20 amps or so.
  Personally I Prefure the Parallel Hookup in a Hydroxy cell... but I have No data that tells me one is better than the other... I just like knowing that the power is getting to each plate <GRIN>
...
 I understand that when building a Dry cell you need to use High quality Stainless steel because of the Neutral plates... its very important that the plates be Non Magnetic because the neutral plates are being energized by the electro-magnetic field on the powered plates... if the metal is magnetic it creates a resistance and thuss heat when energizeing the neutral plates....
 does this sound correct to you Lee ?
...
I know you said you used 304 grade stainless steel in your plates , I don't know if that is high quality or low quality in stainless steel.... is it at all magnetic ? can you pick up a piece of scrap with a magnet ?
...
Bob
 

[Lee Hazleton]

The better the stainless is, the better it's gonna work. The best is 316L (L= low sodium).
I used 304. It's an excellent quality stainless and is much cheaper. I wasn't going to spend more than I had to on something that I had never done before. In the future, I'll use the 316L.
No, the 304 is not magnetic. Getting back to one of your earlier posts, each gap between plates is a cell.
Each group of cells within 2 powered plates is a stack. So, with 19 plates I've got 18 cells in 3 stacks.
      +NNNNN-NNNNN+NNNNN-       2 pos, 2 neg, 15 bipolar.                                                               Some people run 4 or less neutrals and think they are running good MMW's. They're not! With set-ups like these, they run hot & 3/4 of the output is steam. These set-ups must also run a low KOH percentage. The lower the KOH percentage, the more amperage it takes to split the molecules. Wasted amps= heat.
    Just for sh#ts & giggles, I re-installed my dual O2 EFIE. It works well with the new FS2 chip. The mileage seemed to increase even more with the additional 350mv..
    I'll just bet that you can tell how busy I am at work, huh?

[Bob]

HAHAHA  thanks for that info. !
so what is the Fs2 chip anyway ? never hurd of it !
...
Bob...

[Lee Hazleton]

Never heard of the FS2? OK, Fred Flintstone
It's a chip that takes 5 mins. to install. Pretty much automatically tunes the ECU specially for HHO use.
I highly recommend the use of these! They're only $86 at the moment Well worth it!
http://yhst-19807630266082.stores.yahoo.net/
It will basically find & tune the proper map in the ECU and make necessary changes to inject the least amount of fuel possible.

[crb]

Would try it but there for obdII cars.
Mines a obdI.

crb

[Lee Hazleton]

Too bad. They do seem to do a good job.

[Bob]

Same here , I think my Toyota pickup is OBD I as well.
...
Bob...