I just wanna say Hi to everybody out there

[kerrynzl]

I just wanna say Hi to everybody out there, my name is Kerry I am from New Zealand. [ I am presently living in China until 6th April ]
I tried joining the other Hydroxy forum [ but could never log on ]
My background is plastic engineering and playing with High Frequency welders, I have a good access to petrochemist and physics knowledge. I'm reasonably cynical to outrageous claims by others [ but are open minded ]
My first saw a HHO generator many years ago when my grandfather used them to fill balloons [ from memory it was way higher than 2L per minute ]
I am interested in knowing what the motives of members are here:  fuel economy , or producing H2 , or H2 from electricity only, or the holy grail of running a car on water .
There are many outrageous claims and illusions out there [ some aren't as they are presented to us ]

but again " you don't know how close you can get to the edge until you fall off"
Cheerz Kerry

[Bob]

Howdy Kerry ! and welcome to the forum ! glad to have you with us ! I have another friend of mine in NZ
that has been working on the RTFM <GRIN>
...
 I am a foolishly optimistic person sometimes, but I try to keep my feet grounded on cold facts...
and in so doing it usually keeps my head out of the clouds where my vision is impaired! HAHAHAHAH
...
I believe I can run my pickup truck on 100% Hydroxy gas simply because I have ran the numbers
with enough hydroxy gas I can run the engine in my truck.... to make that amount of hydroxy gas
I can run 2- 100amp altenators and the engine can pull that load and still power the truck quite easily
... the problem is doing it... I'm anything but a rich person and my progress is slow because of my financial short-comeings, but I shall prevail come Hell or high water! HAHAHAHAH
...
I will probably Not use "absoultly No gasoline" because I plan to start and warm up the engine on gasoline. then switch over to 100% hydroxy gas and turn off the gasoline completely....in effect having a duel fuel pickup....
... I don't call it "Running on water" because Water don't explode very good <grin> and saying its running on water gives the wrong impression, and there is enough confusion about this method of extracting power from water as it is ! we don't need to ADD to confusion! HAHAHAHAHAHA
...
I am  However a very long way away from my goal of a 100% hydroxy gas powered truck... there are however a few here, that if I had their Hydroxy generators in my hands, I could power the truck fairly easily ! with the volume they are getting !  even if its not quite 100% , it would be very,very, close to it!
....
...
Again, Welcome Kerry !
Bob.......

[Manta]

Kerrynzl,

Hi,  add my name to the welcomes.

My motive is slightly more complex.  First it is simply (?) to reduce my fuel consumption. But I don't use much fuel at the moment so it is hardly worth doing it from that point of view.
But I am genuingly interested in seeing if a car (petrol or Diesel) can be made to run reliably and still be drivable in the normal way using up to 50% hydroxy that is produced without using a massive amount of amperage.   The jury is still out on that one.
I do have other 'alternative power' interests that may come into play later.  It's all just so interesting.

Glad to have you aboard.

Manta

[kerrynzl]

Hey thanks guys
 
Firstly, I believe you can run a vehicle on 100% hydrogen,
but not 100% HHO gas without an outside energy source [ but I'd love to be proven wrong here ]
If both generation of HHO & combustion were 100% efficient there still wouldn't be any net gain [ power ]
To save in fuel costs we need to replace the BTU's of the fuel with an alternative source ,  I've witnessed diesels running propane carbs & injectors acheive this [ HHO would be similar ] The HP is proportional to the BTU input
I remember seeing a thread  on another forum  about making too much HHO and not being able to switch off production [  I tried to respond to this ,but I couldn't register ]
There is another thread here "2 liters a minute at 5 amps?" which has everybody doubting, including me after viewing his product. It can be done but not the way he is trying to do it.
My grandfather made a HHO generator many years ago to fill balloons in a short timeframe using a battery off a tractor .
He told me it was a combination of both electrolysis and a chemical reaction.
1: He used D/C only
2: Most of the plates were on the cathode side connected in series
3: The electrolyte used a high proportion of an Alkali metal [ sodium, potasium, lithium ]
    Lye was cheap and easier control.
4: There was a constant supply of water to the generator, [ he used an old "Holley" float bowl to contol this ]
When D/C was applied to the plates it generated H2 on the cathode and O2 on the anode, but it also electroplated Sodium from the Lye solution to the cathodes.
When it was switched off the Sodium reacted with the fresh water to create H2 [ this was a highly exothermal reaction which generated a lot of heat ]

the reaction should look like this:         2NaOH + Electricity = 2Na [ H2 ] cathode + O2 anode
when it was switched off, it was         2Na + H20 = 2 NaOH + H2 [ + heat ]
As you see by the equation the electrolite does not get consumed, just water.

I can not see this working too well with A/C [ but maybe?? ]

Cheerz Kerry

[Bob]

Kerry:
I have a large 295 Amp Ac DC arc welder that I hooked up one time to my Largest Hydroxy generator
and using about 70 amps it put out about 5LPM in less than a minute ( 2liter bottle in a bucket test with a stop watch. so it was accurate.)
so a AC/DC Arc welder makes for a great power supply on a stationary generator but you have to ca very careful because you can electrocute your self very easily messing around with that stuff!.
...
I prefure NOT to separate the Hydrogen from the Oxygen in the Browns gas(Hydroxy gas) because its so very volitial just the way it is,
However about 15 minutes into my test everything went black.. (this was at night) it seams that even at the welders lowest setting under constant use the 30 amp curcuit breaker at the power pole was not near enough to handle the load ! HAHAHAHHAHAHHA ( the voltage is 112vdc by the way)
so I did learn something from the test ! <GRIN>
...
 Personally I have no doubts that my truck will run on Hydroxy gas alone, the timeing will have to be changed, no doubt but other than that there should be no problems, the problem comes when trying to "Throttle" the Hydroxy gas... thats realy a problem... because my truck is a fuel injected Monster that nas no real carberator so I can't mount a propane carb on it and still run gasoline.. so I have came up with the idea of just using a ball valve hooked to the linkage that controls the throttle....
I don't know if it will work or not but I will find out one of these days soon I hope.
...
 Randy , the fella' that designed and made the "Randy Cell" here on our forum filled a large balloon
and attached a fuze to it and let it go.... it drifted over his neighbors house and then exploded
needless to say it was super loud and the people came out wondering what the heck was going on !
hehehehehhe.
...
I call "Browns Gas" Hydroxy gas and it is very explosive and that is what we need to run an engine
I think "Degradeing it " to only Hydrogen ,takes a bunch of its power away from it ! and there is no sense in doing that as far as I am concerned, just generate the gas and burn it in the engine the way it is and your better off.
.....
Many people get hung up on " it takes more power to generate the gas than its worth"  and this is probably true to a point... but if you consider that you are making your own fuel from a renewal resorce, its worth the waste... isn't it ?   
the way I look at it is this.... I don't care if it take 500 amps worth of electrical power !
My trucks engine can turn 5 100 amp alternators and STILL drive... and if I never have to go to a gas-station I am in so much better shape and anyone else its silly !
... but ofcorse it won't take 500amps to generate 20LPM and that should be more than I need to power the truck (R-22 Toyota P/U 1995) its a 2.5liter engine and by my calculations 15 to 20LPM will power the engine 100%....I am guessing here, and it may indeed take more or less, but somewhere in that ball park should do it.... and if I achieve it ,...I will save thousands of dollars per year on gasoline alone !.....and that is the bottom line.... Money saved!
...
Bob........

[kerrynzl]

Bob!
 
That Randy fella seems to have the same imagination as me, except I used oxy-acetylene gas in balloons to scare my neighbours
I prefer to use the term HHO or Hydroxy Gas, but not the term "Browns Gas"
 
The late Yull Brown was an Australian 'scam artist' that "discovered" Brown's Gas to market his welders and gas cutters [ which used more electricity than a plasma cutter ]
 
He got into a legal sh*tfight with his Chinese partner, who now threatens legal action to everybody over the patent rights [ which have long ago expired anyway ]
 
I  like your comments about "500 amps" , but drawing 500 amps will lower the net output of the engine .If you tuned the engine to a lower HP rating  the fuel savings should be the same or greater. [ eg : atkinson cycle which is similar to NASCAR restrictor plate engines ]
 
There are many ways to produce H2 gas! The chemical methods are the most efficient.
 
Aluminum & water is the easiest [ but you need a bit of Lye as a catalyst ] .Try it , but once you start the reaction you can't switch it off until all the Aluminum is Oxidised.

This is very exothermal [ it gets HOT ]. 5 lbs of Aluminum + 22-1/2 lbs of Lye produce 100 cubic feet of pure Hydrogen 
The by-product of this is Hydrogen gas and Sodium Aluminate
[ 2 Al + 6 NaOH = 3 H2 + 2 Al(ONa)3 ]

Better still:

If Aluminium is amalgamated with Mercury it gets attacked by boiling water which produces Hydrogen and Aluminium Hydrate [ the Mercury doesn't get consumed ]
2 Al + 6 H20 = 3 H2 + Al 2(OH 6) the same 5 lbs of Aluminum produces 100 cubic feet of Hydrogen

If I made a reactor chamber filled with Aluminum / Mercury and then added a controlled supply of steam [ heated of the exhaust ]
I could easily fool people into thinking I found a way to make a car run on water [ the real fuel is the Aluminum & the pollution is the Aluminum Hydrate ]

Sh*t I might do this as a youtube experiment when I get back to NZ
[ Imagine that, "Kerry's gas". HaHa! ]

[Bob]

Yes Kerry....but....
You said...
)))I  like your comments about "500 amps" , but drawing 500 amps will lower the net output of the engine .If you tuned the engine to a lower HP rating  the fuel savings should be the same or greater. [ eg : atkinson cycle which is similar to NASCAR restrictor plate engines ](((((
...
I understand what your saying but your missing the big picture...
Yes there would be a drop in HP of the engine...but the engine would be running on No gasoline at all
and there for be running practially for free

Yes you can detune an engine , and you may get some fuel saveings from it but it won't be running completely withoug gasoline... with the setup I mentioned you would not be useing any gasoline at all
thats the big picture... who cares if the engine has 20 or 40HP less than the normal raited HP because of all the load on it from the big altenators...thats not the point, the point is that it can run with no gasoline and completely on Hydroxy gas alone....
...
Yes there is Ususally a sizeable traid off for conversion from one state of matter to the next and Turning water into Hydroxy gas is no exception to that rule... I understand that!  but we can accomplish it by doing what I said... because the numbers don't lie !
of all the elements on earth water is the easiest to change into diferent states, solid, gasious and even seperateing its elements... sense its the easiest it makes sense to use water and simply rip the water molicules appart and burn the Hydroxy gas that you get!
... The hard part is getting large quanitys of Hydroxy gas, not burning it in the engine...many people have already burned Hydeoxy gas in engines a few have ran smaller engines on 100% hydroxy gas already and many have a suplemental system in their cars....
 Scientific theory would say that "The power needed to make the electricity will equil the power made by the gas in the engine and therefore you will not gain a thing"  I have hurd that so many times its silly... but sciense is not alwayse right and then they have to make an acception to that part!
like the bumble bee that was scientifically proven not to be able to fly, yet we all know they do, so there has to be an exception to the "RULE"
I am confident that Running your car on 100% Hydroxy gas will become another acception to the rule
in the near future...
Science is a guide, not a law... don't let your knowledge blind you from the obvious as it sometimes can do... the back pack helicopter was "IMPOSSABLE" but Her Schoffman made it a reality... it can be done with Hydroxy gas in cars too ! ... nobody said it was easy... and so far its not...
but my 40mpg sure beats the 22mpg I was getting before I started this !
so its on to the next step... bigger and better with More MPG improvements till someday no gasoline is needed at all.... its just a matter of time !
...
Bob.....

 

[kerrynzl]

Bob,

Einstein once said "Of course we don't know what we are doing, that's why it is called research"

I don't know whether that phrase is an "urban myth" or not, but it is worth noting that all advancements of mankind have been acheived by doing something that has never been done before.

My background is plastics, and I have a vast experience in Mechanical engineering [ I have built 'Race' engines, and I race classic cars ]

The biggest flaw in the equation is the Engine [ it is a heat / air pump ] so it requires BTU's to feed it.

Hydrogen has more BTU's than Gasoline [ by weight ] so 'more' Gasoline in theory can be replaced by 'less' Hydrogen.

I have been researching the famous 200MPG carb invented by C.N.Pogue [ there is a lot of bullsh*t & conspiracy theories here ]

The truth is, he never sold the patent [this can be searched] but made a lot of money when Oil shares hit rock bottom [ there is more than one way to cash up $$$ ]

Back in the 30's gasoline was just distilled crude oil [ for a simple explanation ] the process was called visbreaking.

Pogue's carbs sort-of- worked by vaporising the heavy "long-carbon-chain" fractions of the sh*t fuel they had [ less unburnt hydrocarbons ]

If his vaporiser carb had Hydrogen introduced to the equation it would have worked a real treat.

If you split gasoline [ C8 H18 ] into two parts [ C4 H9 ] in theory the BTU contents of the two parts would equal the gasoline

Unfortunately [C8 H18] needs to be split into 2 x [C4 H10] so an extra [H2] is needed

The real fun begins when gasoline is cracked into methane [ CH4 ], methane has a low BTU content but when the volume is added up ,the total BTU's are way ahead

It is cracked like this [C8 H18] + 7[H2] = 8 [CH4]

To steam crack it you'll need : 2[C8 H18] + 14[H2O] = 16 [CH4] + 7[O2]

note: C8 H18 is actually Octane which I am using as an average for gasoline in this equation

If somebody [ hopefully me ] could produce a vaporiser carb that could "steam crack" gasoline, then we would see super clean high mpg results

Here lays my main interest in producing Hydrogen gas from water

Cheerz Kerry

[Bob]

Interesting that you should mention the Pogue Carberator and vaporizing gasoline..as I made 4 vaporizers so far and have had verious results with it...
 Sense gasoline expands 600 times when you vaporize it yet still explodes per the same volume the same as it did before vaporization or better you can asume that you can get up to 600 times the gas mileage you were getting if you simply find a way to vaporize the gasoline.... they have been doing this in Jet engines for decades... infact if they wern't your plane ticket would be about 4 times the cost because of the large amounts of fuel needed.
...
I have used so far 2 of the 4 vaporizer units I made by useing the heat from the exhost... the first one was just a quick experiment on my ford pinto... and One trip
and one trip only did I get everything just right on a warm day and I achieved 80mpg on that tank of gas... half the time the silly car would stagger and the other half it ran like normal.... I was simply not making enough vapor.
My Current Dodge truck has a bigger unit on it ( 3/8"copper tubing wrapped around the exhost pipe coil is approx 3 ft long.) this unit gives me enough vapor to run the V8 engine when its idleing and not under load.... but soon as it gets under a load it starts staggering again... I discovered it was the intake air that was causing the vaporized gasoline to re-condense back into liquid... so I made a big Heat rizer... but unfortionately its not big enough as once going down the road at about 40mph the temp in the heat rizer drops below 90deg ... and it needs to stay above 110 degrees to keep the gasoline in its vaporized state....
thats where I sit on it at the moment... I quit playing with it when I got wind of the Hydroxy units and got to thinking that I can run 100% hydroxy and not need gasoline at all... so I pulled out all the stops and have been working on the Hydroxy idea every sense....
but I just couldn't Keep the vaporized gasoline in a vapor state when you add that cold air of the intake....
as you mentioned  the engine is a heat pump and Cold air in Hot air out is the norm
and with my vaporizer it would be less effecient indeed tith Hot air in and Hot air out.... but would get about 200mpg if I could get it correct....
but I never did... <GRIN>
its still on the truck... so I'll get back to it some day! HAHAHAHA
....
Bob.......

[Cowboy]

Just a thought Bob, but couldn't you turn your fan shroud into a sort of 'hot air induction' unit?  If you're worried about cold air, the air that comes from your radiator could solve the problem.

[kerrynzl]

Bob,

Even though gasoline expands to 600x it's volume ,the BTU content remains exactly the same for the fuel

eg: 1 cubic foot of liquid gasoline has 600x more energy than 1 cubic foot of vapour gasoline [ an engine breathes by volume ]

Gasoline can vaporise [ or evaporate ] at room temperature, but to "crack" or "reform" gasoline requires approx 1000 degrees

The problem with vapour is compression. [ I know this from a "flash devolitiser" to separate polymers.]

To simplify this explanation, water turns to steam at 212 F or [ 100 C ] put it in a radiator with a pressure cap and the boiling point is way higher. when you lift the cap off at above boiling point "Instant steam"

Compression tries to re-liquify the vapour [ for a simple explanation ]

Hydrogen in its pure form requires a huge atmospheric pressure to condense, so does light fraction hydrocarbons [ methane CH4, ethane C2H6, acetylene C2H2 or producer gas CO H2 ]

Over here in China I have been involved to "pyrolysis" in particular "Tires to Diesel", waste tires are a curse to our environment , but in China they actually buy scrap tires.

Tires produce 40% diesel by weight [ 15% steel & wastes ] and 45% carbon black.

The problem is the carbon black is of poor quality so it can't be sold.

The solution is to steam-reform it into producer gas C + H2O = CO H2 [ this also can later be reformed to long chain hydrocarbons ]

The old Pogue carb did OK ish on the old sh*t gas of the 1930's where there was a huge amount of "long chain unburnt hydrocarbons" and CO gas.

[ Talk to any old-timers about how often they had to de-coke an engine, which is seldom done now ]

Now there are people that are into Vaporiser technology and people that are into Hydroxy technology! but the real solution lies in the combination of both technologies.

Hydrocracking and Steam Reforming have been used by refineries since the late 30's [ just after the Pogue carb for all you conspiracy theory people. HaHa! ]

It is basic economics! Add the worlds most plentiful chemical [ water ] to crude oil in a controlled environment to increase the useable products available
 
Kerry