New cell completed

[ROADKING]

I just finished up a 31/2" x31/2" dry cell with 6 neutral 4 negatives and 1 positive Equaling 11 total plates,  So my question is, do I multiply 3.5 x3.5 = 12025 (sq. inches) x11(plates)=134.75 (total inches) divided by 2 = 67.375 (amps) divided by 10 equals 6.74 lpm . I am only getting about 1 lpm on 15 volts and 17 amps if I am measuring it correctly, using a 1 litre bottle and an aquarium   I am looking for suggestions.  Thanks for every ones in put.

[Bob]

Hi RoadKing !
Somehow your plate hookup just sounds all wrong ! but I'ed have to see what ya did before I say its foobared ! HAHAHAHAHHAHA
what are you trying to figure there anyway ....the theretical LPM output  OR how many amps you can use ?
...
Bob........

[Bob]

Ok RoadKing ... I guess I gott'a Pry it out'a ya ! heheheheheh
lets hear some more info on this cell of yours Please !
...
I dunno why you would hook up 4 negitive plates and only one positive plate but there must be some reasoning behind it so please clue us in on your thoughts !
or maybe I didn't understand what ya did...I dunno !
but you sure got me wondering what kind of setup you have there !
are they flat plates stacked like so many slices of toast or what ? do you have then seperated in 4 places and need the negitive plate fed or just what all ?
...
and How does it work ? have you tested it more sense the last post ?
...
Bob....

[ROADKING]

Well I just tested the new cell on a 1965 Chevy pick up, the truck has a 292 in line 6, 4 speed granny with 410 posi track.  The base line for gas mileage is 12.0 mpg.  I told you I really cannot test the output for as lpm, but seem to be putting out quite a bit.  I have tried to test it with a litre bottle in an aquarium and the best I can see is a litre per minute but by the bubble it appears much more.  Any way I installed it, took it on a 1100 mile trip and it is the best I have come up with.  It got me 21.7 mpg.  It also used about 2 pints of distilled water that I have koh in.
Now for the cell it is a dry cell 6x6, 316l ss 11 plate 1/32 space with a 5 gal per minute pump on it.  I have a pwm set at 21 amps. hydro hose in top of carb.  So as of now I am flushing the cell and preparing to get a few more miles per gal out of it by leaning the carb jet 1size and see where to go from there.  I will keep you posted.

[Manta]

Roadking,

sounds good.  What is the driveability like ?

Manta

[Manta]

Roadking,

Are theses figures correct ?  An 81 % increase .

Your 1100 mile trip at the old 12 mpg would have used 1100/12 = 91.6 gallon.

Your 1100 mile trip at the new 21.7 mpg used 1100/21.7 = 50.7 gallon.

So you saved 40.9 gallon on that one trip.  How much did you save in $ ?

Manta

[Bob]

Now thats a success story if I ever hurd it !
a 9 MPG increase right off the bat !
FANTASTIC!
...
be aware that you might change the ignition timeing about 2 degrees closer to TDC than normal if you experience any Pinging or pre-detination  (usually charaterized by a slow acceleration and a ratteling sound)...
...
You sound to me to be doing everything right on the Truck ! I love those older trucks their made of Steel... 14 guage sheetmetal in the fenders ! takes a big hammer to do body work on them !HAHAHA!
...
Leaning out the carb is your next step sounds like to me...as you have already started in that direction...on a old 6cyl chevy PU that I had I took the main jet out of the single bbl carb.
and put it on the anvil and used a small flat punch to flatten the metal all the way around the center hole in one whack.... sort'a mushroomed the metal inward to shrink the hole size. this leaned it out very nicely I used a accetiline torch tip cleaner to guage the hole size... and I just shrunk it one cleaner size..... doing this got my 11mpt to about 18mpg... ( and a complete tune-up)and was long before any thoughts of Hydroxy generators entered my mind...about 40 years ago ! HAHAHHA
( the accelerator pump was leaking badly also in that carberator... fixed that as well!)
....
You should be able to PULL a house with that truck with the 410 rear end but doing 75 on the freeway will un screw the engine ! by turning it too fast ! HAHAHAHAHA... you need a brownie 3 speed in that thing and then you'll have more gears to play with than an 18 wheeler! HAHAHAHA
...
I sure would like to see some pictures of your cell and instilation...
...
Sounds like your use of the 5gmp pump is the secret to your success... very well thought out Roadking!
WELL DONE !...
...
 Still dunno about the setup of the cell itself...but it obviously works great ! !!!!!
thank you for your contribution to the forum !
...
and I love the tight spaceing....HEHEHHEHEHE
...
keep up the good work !
Bob...

[ROADKING]

Bob,
As far as the set up it has 1 pos terminal 2 neg and 8 neutrals, with the pos in the center.
the drive ability of this truck is great for it has been completely restored, this truck I purchased from a cemetery and it has a dump bed on it and is a short step side.  As of now I am very happy with it.
I did miss quote the size of the cell, it is my 31/2 x31/2 inches, I have 3 different size of these cell to experiment with, and the next one is the61/2 in so see if there is any differences.  I will keep you posted of my projects.

[Bob]

OOOOH ok I get it now your pos is in the center and the neg plates on the end! AHHH ok that should work very well !
...
Ummm let me show my stupidity and ask what the heck is 31/2 in inches ? is that a metric measurement
or what ? hehehehe you lost me there
I understand the 6.5" measurement on the one  but I'm wondering if thats your biggest cell er what.!
...
I have been toying with the idea of a 12"x12" 7 plate cell with parallel hookup to the plates
I don't know if anyone has done that yet... and the plates are so big that I think I will attach to oppisit cornors of each plate... so 2 hookups per plate 90Deg appart ...
I would think that a cell that big should produce a BUNCH of hydroxy gas...if I can get enough amps to it ! HAHAHAHAHA
...
Bob...

[ROADKING]

Sorry about that, this cell I am now using is 3.5in x 3.5in.

[Bob]

And it gives you that big of an increase in MPG ! MAN get the 6.5"x6.5" cell working and you'll get 40mpg ! HAHAHAHA WOW !
thats really neet !
I've alwayse thought that the computer controled BS in these cars is why the Hydroxy gas doesn't help that much and that is proving to be true !  I am seriously tempted to re fit my toyota R22 with a regular carb and get rid of that fuel injected garbage!  I KNOW i can do better than 40mpg with my truck
but I have to have more than 3LPM to do it ! HEHEHEHE
I bet if you got 8 to 10LPM you'ed be up in the 70mpg range !  and for that old truck that would be super sweet!...
...
My 1968 Dodge fleetside is about the Ugliest truck I think I have ever owned, but the engine and rearend make it a keeper... it got 8mpg when I brought it home but I get almost 11mpg in it now
it has an automatic in it and that is a bummer... but the 411 rear end make it so it can pull just about anything ! it has a 318 V8 in it I think and a 2bbl carb and all it needs to be useable is good gas mileage ! and I do believe with a big hydroxy cell under the hood it will make that truck get 40 to 45mpg or better....
...
I feel that we are REPLACEING the gasoline... not just inhanseing its burn but replaceing it ...to a certain extent... and the more you add in Hydroxy gas the less gasoline you will need to run it.
this idea has been proven to be so in a few cases, but admittidly not very many...
...  I won't stop till I have my Toyota running on 100% hydroxy !...but in all honnesty it might be easier to do with the O'l Dodge than that fuel injected nightmare ! HAHAHAHHA
....
Bob.......

 

[ROADKING]

Bob,
I am now working with a Subaru Brat, to see what I can get,  But a man told me to put 1 lpm for every inch opening on the carb, and that is what I am trying for the time.  He said Too much hydrogen will hinder you, I don't know about that yet?  I will know for the brat I am going to see how far I can go, I bought a flow meter and a egt gauge so I could keep a close eye on everything to keep from melting pistons and valves.  I will keep you posted on this.

[Bob]

Well, Yes too much Hydroxy gas will start causing problems.... you'll get pinging and pre detonation
but that is easily cured by changing the timing a few degrees closer to TDC than stock timing.
and sense I really don't believe in the Hydrogen embrittlement Myth on a running engine there is really no other problems that you should incounter by adding lots of Hydroxy gas ... except the benifits <GRIN>
....
its true that when adding Hydroxy gas as a "Suppliment" to regular gasoline that there is a point where your putting in more hydroxy gas than gasoline.... however this does not change the behaviour of the running of the engine at all, from what I've read,... as I havn't experienced this myself!
...what happens is this... when  you add Hydroxy gas to a gasoline engine... the Hydroxy gas burns first
and this HELPS the gasoline vapors to burn much better.....more completely...
when you begin adding more and more Hydroxy gas you begin to loose throttle control first....
because you are adding it stright into the engine without any control valves and the engine simply begins to idle high.... and that can be a problem no doubt...
when you get to that point you have to start throttleing the Hydroxy gas to control the engine
and decrease or eleminate the gasoline completely from the system.....
personally I plan on starting my truck on gasoline and then switching it OFF and run on pure Hydroxy gas alone....
but the timeing, and carberation will no doubt have to be changed to accomplish that !
I amagon about 2deg ATDC is what will be needed when I go that far on Hydroxy gas !
...
FWIW
Bob......

[ROADKING]

Speaking of vapors, I am now adding another bubbler and filling it with gasoline, I have experimented with this using a torch and I was impressed with the out come so now i am going thru a water bubbler the gas bubbler the a c trap as a dryer then to the carb and see if there is any benefits.

[Bob]

heheh best of luck to ya... I tried that with exhost heat and couldn't keep the gasoline in vapor form... it wanted to condense and freeze the base of the carb !....
it takes 110 deg to vaporize gasoline...well...completely... you can draw air through it and get allot of vapor that way but that changes with the weather and barometric pressure and humidity and what not
...
with all the vapor you are adding you won't need any gas in the caberator  ! HAHAHAHA
and there is nothing wrong with that at all !
....
I am a fervent believer in gasoline vaporization ! you can get 600 times the volume from vaporized gasoline than with the liquid form... and it still is explosive...infact even more so than in liquid form.... the problem is keeping gasoline in its Vapor form...soon as it inters a vacume it will snap back to droplets and shrink in size.... but if you can win the battle you stand to achieve 600 times the gas milage your getting now, clear and simple....
unfortionately I have not been able to accomplish the task... though I admit I have never tried to draw all my air going through the intake through gasoline and just burn the Air/vapor that way.... that should work very well !
  give it a try and see what it does ! <GRIN>
...but Don't forget to lean out your carberator even more or you won't see any benifits as the gasoline is pumped through the carb weather you burn it or not !
...
and DO NOT FORGET your Flash back Prevention Bubbler or bubblers !
better have one on that gasoline vaporizer too ! ...
....
I did vaporize Diesel in my Pinto and ran it like that for about 3 years..the HP was improved a great deal and the running about 100% smother... the slight smoke never bothered me in those days
and it did increase my MPG by about 2 to 5 MPG...
I used 2 aquarium air stones off a "T" at the bottom of a 1 gal mason jar and ran the "T" line to the lid on the jar, and sealed the hose... the engine drew air from the center vacume port below the carb to the top of the lid...through a needle valve... thats all there was to it...the jar was under vacume when it was running and drawing in air through the line that was sealed to the lid...
the line going to the engine drew air from the jar which in turn sucked air from the air stones and "T" connector ... it worked very well but only gave me a few MPG's   I think most of the benifits was from the luburacation of the top end of the engine... as when I pulled the head everything was clean and shinnie like it was bran new...no carbon at all ! and the car had over 250k miles on it!
Diesel in an engine is a good thing it really cleans them up ...but don't do that to a fuelenjected monster as your catatlic converter will be ruened!... another of the benifits of having an older car !
HAHAHHAHAH
Bob......

[b1jetmech]

Hey Roadking, good results on your truck...very impressive! Stick an NV 4500 in there and take advantage of the overdrive. Just having an overdrive will further help fuel mileage.

Been a while since I drove anything with 4.10 gear are lower without an overdrive LOL!

[b1jetmech]

Again, I'm seriously thinking of ditching the fuel injection on the 96' suburban. It runs great but that computer is preventing me from achieving my dreams!

I know once hydrogen is introduced, it won't matter if it has fuel injection or not because it's gonna run good, even better and will pass any emission test in the country.

[Manta]

Roadking,

That 1100 mile trip makes for some interesting figures if you work it backwards.

2 litre of water produces 3678.26 litre of hydroxy gas.

If you were averaging 50 mph for the trip then the trip took 22 hours.

from that you get 3678.26/22 = 167.79 litre per hour which gives you 2.786 LPM.

That 2 litre of water replaced 49.9 gallon of petrol.

Not bad at all.  So hopefully I only need to aim for 3 lpm to get good results.

Manta

[ROADKING]

Manta,
Thanks for the numbers you arrived at.  As far as the lpm that you need to arrive at, this is what a man at the hho show in Fla to a friend of mine that we needed, and the way he explained that to us was measure the opening on the carb and for every inch on the opening you need one litre or a half of litre for every litre size of you engine,  I don't know, but as of now it is working, I guess we will go on and see what happens.

[Cowboy]

A few things...

One; Hydrogen embrittlement is real if you use pure hydrogen, unknown about any mixture, whether it be petrol or pure oxygen (as obtained through our electrolysis). 

Two; Those are great figures Roadking!  Adding on to b1jetmech's statement about an NV4500, you can use other overdrive tranny's as well, or an under/overdrive unit.  www.gearvendors.com is a great link, though they are pricey.  My Grandad has been using one from them for over 20 years and has yet to have an issue.  He's rebuilt motors for the truck, but the overdrive unit has stayed true. 

Three;  Regarding those figures, what have you done to the carb and/or intake?  I know with my 1405 Edelbrock/Performer RPM intake, after a rejet I was getting 20 mpg on 4.56 gears and 33x12.50 tires with a 327/th350, averaging 70 mph freeway (pushing 3500 RPM).  I did a lot of tuning to everything, but I tuned for performance and got mileage too.  What are your secrets?

[ROADKING]

I don't have any secrets, I think I am just having some good luck after several months of work and studying.  As far as fine tuning, I am in that process now,  I am going to drop the jet one size, and add a gasoline bubbler and go from there.  The gasoline bubble on my test bench I liked and I have to see what it will do.  So we will see.

[Bob]

Cowboy:
 Usually tuneing for proformance makes for better echnomey... but not alwayse
when you get into jetting for top end and fat on the bottom end then your gas milage goes to the dogs ! ...
I have played with tuneing engines all my life and I love it even still... each engine is a bit diferent, they have their own personalities and quirks but run off of the same 3 basic things ,Spark,compression and Ignition...all in the right order, and it will run...
...
A friend of mine in Florida by the name of "Walt" built up a big engine in his Elcamino... and it developed over 400hp ( it was dynoed, papered,ballanced the whole 9 yards.) and he got a whopping 29mpg from it in his ElCamino ! consistantly!
then one day the engine in his tow truck that he built from scratch blew a rod and he put the Elecamino engine in his 10000lb truck and his milage went way down!
to about 15mpg.... but he could pull anything... even my 36' bus full of 8 tons of stuff I discovered ! hehehhehehhe.
...
Walt said the reason His Elcamino got such good gasmilage was simply because the engine wasn't working hard at all... the ElCamino was light and the engine developed so much HP that it never realy worked !... in the tow truck he worked it though !
HAHAHAHAHA
... I think the man was right !
...
he also was a ferm believer in relieveing all back pressure in the exhost system
and I totally agree !
...
food fer thought perhaps ?
FWIW
Bob.........


 

[Cowboy]

I have a similar decision on back pressure, but you need exhaust.  On that old motor of mine I ran shorty headers and 2-1/2" true duals with Flowmasters.  There wasn't much back pressure, but the pipe was there.  Reason being is it allows the valves to cool down some before the cold (relative to engine temp) air from outside hits them and makes cracks.  Open headers are bad, but unrestricted exhaust is good. 

[Bob]

I agree totally there Cowboy.... the pipe is necessary.. cold air on the exhost valves is a very bad thing!....
perhaps back pressure is the wrong wording.... as you say UN Restricted exhost  is the way to go
flow through shorty mufflers are really good and allow the engine to breathe easier !
...the longer the exhost pipe the better off you are , usually.... but I prefure larger diamator pipe ... I put 3" exhost pipe on my 400cid. chevy engine in the bus and it really helped it a bunch
... just wish I'ed have done the valves too...as they receeded into the head and  its been sitting every sense ! .
...
I gott'a run.... mor playing in the Sewer today ! Weeee what fun !
UGH !
...
Bob.....

[Painless]

I gott'a run.... mor playing in the Sewer today ! Weeee what fun !

It's a sh*ty job but somebody's got to do it, right?

[Bob]

HAHA You got that right ! I got it fixed though .... the entire line was full of that Sh*t and You don't wann'a know what it smelled like !  but finally found the 2nd plug and got the whole thing working good now... when that torlet flushes it really Goes down ! I mean  don't stand too close... and what ever ya do don't sit on it and flush it ... that could be real bad !
 HAHAHAHAHAHAH
Now I get to play making a new cover over the sespool ! more fun ! but the worst part is over anyway !
hehehehe ... HA ! at least ours has a cover over it, I remember my grandpa didn't have a cover on his and every once in a while someone ( usually a Kid or Dog ) would fall in !  Not a purdy sight!
....
I got my fencing , or at least one roll of it today.... Now I gott'a put it up to keep the Mutts in !
....Getting closer and closer to moving now ... Boy will I be glad to finally be down there !
...this is hard work !
hehehe
...
Bob.......

[Bob]

b1jetMech:
 I am seriously considering the same thing regardless of what the DMV will say !
their so silly with their laws and regulations that they don't know whats good or bad !
I am thinking it would be far simplier to convert to 100% hydroxy if I went with a carb and no injectors
...and sense I'ed have to get a "Special wavier" from the BAR (buro of Automotive Repair) no mater if I just run a Hydroxy generator of go with 100% Hydroxy gas , why not just do it all at once and be done with it ?  I am not going to want to go mess with those idiots a second time, so I just as well shoot for the 100% Hydroxy gas the first time...  I may only achieve 95% or so but its bound to be better than paying for the regular number of gallons at a fill-up !
... I figure it might even Idle on gasoline, and then turn the fuel off at anything above 1/4 throttle by a electric on off valve for the gas line going to the carb... a quick easy cure for the engine getting fuel when it doesn't need it...
...with a small holding tank that is pressure regulated for the Hydroxy generators... from there a ball valve should control the
Hydroxy gas and throttle....
 I figure get in, start the truck and turn on the Hydroxy generator main relay , it will build pressure in a minute or so and then the pressure switch/regulator will turn it off... then drive away
and it will kick back in automatically when the pressure drops...
...so my generators will have to be Big.... big enough to never run out of hydroxy gas at the given amperage that they will draw....
...I think 2 of "Scratches" Monster cells will do the trick....
if I can get enough amp draw from them, if not it may take more....
....
but even if it takes 4 such cells and 2-100amp altenators  I just don't see how I can loose...
(if I can get it licensed again !)
...
I dunno if you are thinking of going as radical as I am or not, but a carberator sure would make it allot easier in my view!
...
My 2 coppers!
Bob.......

[ROADKING]

I agree on the carbs, and that is the reason I used my 1965 Chevy, I am in the process now of fine tuning it.
Now I am starting on a Subaru brat with 4 wheel drive in out high and low, and I am going to try to achieve 100 mpg or more by trying to run 90% hydroxy and 10% gas, I will let you know the progress on this experiment.

[Bob]

Fantastic ! I wish you luck !
because I have a Subaru 4x4 RXTurbo sadan that needs heads and berrings
(it over heated and cooked it , low oil pressure!,cracked heads)
but some day I hope to get it back into shape again , its an EA-81 engine
4 cyl.... fuel injected....(unfortionately) but all in all a very nice car!
....
My VW van is also Fuel injected Darn it !
the only vehicle I have that is not fuel injected is the old 1968 dodge 318 automatic 4:11 rear end, and a 1996 Honda 1100cc shadow Motorcycle...
Oh,,,,and the newly aquired 2 seater gocart 150cc
...and the furgison tractor... ofcorse.
....
Bob

[ROADKING]

I just finished up the 8x8 cell and put it on a 350 Cummings diesel engine, so far I have put 275 miles on it,  I am running it at 15 amps.  The electrolyte has really turned nasty brow I am fixing to clean and flush it and star over and see what happeneds, I will fill it up and report the mileage to you, hope to be positive but don't know yet.

[ROADKING]

Now that I have my cells working somewhat, I am having another problem.  I am using 1/2" lexan polycarbonate and it is shattering a part can anyone explain this problem I am going thru.  I have now had two of then to break.

[Cowboy]

I don't have a great answer for you, but in the research I just did I learned that polycarbonate starts to soften around 150* F.  I don't know if the same applies to lexon or not, but it is likely.  If your cell reaches temperatures close to that, impurities could be embedding themselves later causing your cracks. 

-Cowboy

[ROADKING]

I have not noticed any impurities in the cell, but will look closer and see if I see any.  The cracks appear to start at the fittings or else end at the hole where the fittings go in.  I am using nylon fittings and I thought the lexon was stronger than the nylon fittings.  I have not found where anyone else is having this problem, I may just have them too tight of a squeeze.  I see everyone else uses lexon I thought, I tried Plexiglas and it will not hold up.  So I will see what else I can find out.

[Manta]

ROADKING,

It may be due to your electrolyte. I have some polycarbonate tube that started life as part of fleurescent light fittings.  For a (short) time I used  lenghts of this tube as measuring cylinders for weak NaOH solutions.  After a few days I found the whole of the tubes were crazed with thin cracks.  If you are using NaOH or KOH solutions then this may be the problem.

Manta

[ROADKING]

I am using koh.  thanks

[b1jetmech]

Well after a series of tests I conclude that these mini's are no good for auto application. The problems I have is they produce steam and heat the water too hot too fast.

I was told by an experience H2 generator builder that the mini's will overheat because the current threshold is too great for the smaller plates. If 5 amps is put to it then then it does good but only for a lawnmower LOL!

So I'm off to the next project of a 6'x6" or an 8"x8" drycell. For now, I think I will install one of these mini's on my 14 horse  IH Cub Cadet tractor.

[Bob]

You just need to cool the puppies down is all....
Yes they will generate allot of heat but with a good recurculation system for the electrolyte you can still do the Mini's
....
Bob.....