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hg2
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« on: March 12, 2009, 06:09:09 am » |
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I tore the cell down for cleaning and some much needed modifications and thought it a good time to post some pics of it.
This cell is a year old and has over 40,000 miles on it and the plates and other parts do show some wear.
Specs:
Plates: 7- 9"x 9",316L, 16 gauge
Plate gap: 1/16"
End plates material: 1/2" sheet CPVC (and has performed very well for over a year for resistance to heat and KOH).
Cold start voltage is 13.7v with v2 PWM (this is voltage at the cell /battery is 14.5v)
warmed up voltage is 12.0v with v2 PWM (this is voltage at the cell /battery is 14.5v)
Amp draw cold: 35 @ 13.7v
Amp draw peak temp: 58 @ 12.0v
Voltage per plate at peak temp: 2v
Electrolyte: 28% by weight(2 LBS>) flake KOH to 1 gallon distilled water
Peak operating temp: 120 DEG. F
Plate configuration: 5N1 (5 neutrals)
Gas outlet fittings: 5 -3/8" barbed
Electrolyte inlet fittings: 2 -3/8" barbed
Power leads: 6 AWG copper strand
Relay: 12v 75 amp
LPM output:I haven't done a flow test as of yet I'm still waiting for an e-lyte pump because e-lyte levels suffer due to high LPM pressure not allowing gravity feed reservoir tank to keep e-lyte level to full.
Pic 1: Plate after cleaning and resanding
Pic 2: Pic of start of assembly first and last spacer gaskets are 1/4"(all others are 1/16")
Pic 3: Pic showing center strip modification to correct plate warping problem
Pic 4: Completed cell
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« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 07:30:18 am by hg2 »
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #1 on: March 12, 2009, 08:28:36 am » |
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Hey I just saw this on scambusters. Might be the same setup. lol
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hg2
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« Reply #2 on: March 12, 2009, 08:35:54 am » |
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Hey I just saw this on scambusters. Might be the same setup. lol
Naaaaaaaaaaa not a chance they all look alike. |
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Bob
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« Reply #3 on: March 12, 2009, 10:58:25 am » |
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HAY ! Fantastic HG2 !
thats a good set of plans if I ever saw one... even I could reproduce that'en !
....would you mind if I copied it to the plans section ?
...I just wish the pics wern't so dark.... <GRIN>
...
thank you very much for sharing all your hard work with us ! and not only that but its a Mileage proven design ! and that is great!
WELL DONE !
Very well done indeed !
(...now get the truck to LIKE IT.... you should get better Mileage than that I think!)
Make another cell just like it and have 2 of them going at once and that should get you into the 40mpg range! ..... no really ! remember you have a BIG truck and it takes allot of Hydroxy gas to make a big diference on a big engine.... I think with 2 cells like that you might be able to get as much as 75MPG
but you will have to get the gasoline cut back more to achieve that !
.... so its up to you if you want to take it that far !
...
again ! WELL DONE !
Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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Painless
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« Reply #4 on: March 12, 2009, 05:24:58 pm » |
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I'll definitely go along with Bob on that one, when I took my new cell over 4 LPM was the first time I even heard a difference in my engine tone with my head under the hood! Now, when my new batch of KOH arrives I can't wait to see what she can do!
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hg2
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« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2009, 06:14:00 pm » |
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Thanks Bob and Russ for the compliments,she's been a good cell for while now.But there's more.
New developments today:
I got my e-lyte pump today and temped it up to test it out.But as always with HHO every advancement comes a set back.I warmed the cell and waited until the PWM brought the voltage down to near 12v,then turned on the pump and couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the output increase to the likes of which I've never seen.The outlet hoses were vibrating as if they were resonating,I had the hose from the secondary bubbler in a bucket and watched as the bubbling rapidly increased as the cell came up to full level,after I switched on the pump.
Now for the bad news(not real bad because it can be corrected),at the same time as the production was starting to peak,the level sight gauge on the primary bubbler/e-lyte recovery tank which was filling faster than it could reroute back to the 1 gallon reservoir tank.I think I can correct this with a return line larger than the 3/8" nylon barbed fitting I use now,by using 1/2" or 3/4" fittings and hoses,so that the flow of e-lyte back to the reservoir tank will be increased.
Ok I know you're waiting for the LPM bottom line.I had the wife use the stopwatch to time it took to fill a 1 liter bottle.The reason I did this is because I wanted an accurate timing and also with the increased output I knew it would be quick.I filled a 1 liter bottle in 8.72 seconds that's 6.88 LPM by my calculator.I tried it 4 times and the highest time was 9.12 seconds which is still 6.5 LPM.This also was with the truck idling and the voltage not up to peak.after I resolve the e-lyte flow problem I'm going to shoot for over 7 LPM with the higher voltage by idling the truck rpms when I do the flow test.
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 03:33:27 am by hg2 »
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Bob
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« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2009, 10:08:35 pm » |
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WOOO HOOO sounding better all the time Hg2 !
Fantastic !
Ok say you have a good consistant flow of 6.5LPM and you have a 5.7liter truck engine thats ONLY 1.14LPM per engine/liter displacement... that is just getting to the bottom end of improveing your gas mileage... I don't mean to belittle your accomplishment at all infact getting 6.5LPM from a single cell has to be a record here ! that is extreamily good!
but you are dealing with a HUGE gas guzzeling Monster of an engine!....
I have a 2.5Liter displacement engine and when I put 3LPM into it that gives me 1.2 LPM per Liter of displacement.... that gave me 32mpg consistantly and up to 40MPG at one time
but that truck of mine already achieved 22mpg to 24mpg... so splitting the diference in gas mileage say 23mpg that was a gain of only 9MPG for the CONSISTANT reading... but as much as 17mpg on the High end.... ( which in all truthfullness I am doubting my actually getting that much...<GRIN>)...
but thats at More LPM PER Liter of displacement than you have NOW... not much more but a bit...
the problem is sense its so much bigger it will need that much more... How much more is anyones guess but 2LPM per liter of displacement has proven to be extreamily good in the past
Remember Hydrotech on the other forum had 8LPM in his big truck , Much like yours... but
he also took great pains to reduce the gasoline going into the engine... not just adding the HHO.... because he added the HHO and it helped the truck run much better but it only improved the gas milage a fraction untill he started reduceing the gasoline !
these trucks now days are made to dump fuel through the engine weather it USES the fuel or NOT... that is very important to understand with using HHO... because even if you supply enough HHO to run the engine completely on HHO without changing the FUEL/gasoline you will NOT see a big improvement in MPG !.... Period !
....However... Hydrotech did cut back the fuel a great deal, so much infact that the truck would barely RUN on gasoline anymore it would stagger and buck and fart and fume because it was so extreamily Lean.... but when he turned on the HHO it ran like normal...
...Now thats doing it RIGHT ! he also achieved 72mpg with that truck before he faded off into no-mans land.... I keep hopeing he'll sign up and get back here with us !
...because its hard for you guys to believe that 72mpg in a big truck is even Possable! but it is!.... LTCfisher I believe got something like 80mpg in his little car before winter set in.... dunno what hes up to or working on now, but HIGH gas milage ...even in a big truck is possable !
....
My little 2.5liter toyota truck would get much better milage if I had more HHO I am sure of that... but I will have to LEAN out the gasoline to achieve it.... or the way the truck is made it will dump 22mpg of gasoline through the engine weather it needs it or not !
I figure I'll get 45 to 75MPG by the end of summer ...if I get a chance to work on it again
because I know I have to lean out the gasoline !
...I seriously don't think these electronic gizzmoes are going to be enough... it has to be so lean it will barely run without the HHO.... then your going to get the HIGH gasmilage!
...
as with most big truck owners I amagon you'ed be danceing the gig if you got as high as 20MPG
but don't stop there.... there is more to be had than that !
...
My 2 coppers !
...
Bob........
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« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 10:14:41 pm by Bob »
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2009, 03:51:16 am » |
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Yeah Bob I hope to be doing that jig soon after I work all the glitches out it,just a few more mgp than what I'm getting now would make it all worthwhile for sure.I do agree with you about Hydrotech,I learned a lot from his work over at Dan Wells forum last year he had a lot of great work and info to offer.
A lot of good info and members were lost forever in that mess.
There was a phenomenon I've never seen or read about regarding HHO generators.And that is after I turned on the pump with the cell warmed up a bit and with my voltmeter on the cell itself,I watched as the production and the e-lyte flow increased,I noticed the volts on the cell went from 12.5v down to 11.9v in about 30 sec.After I shut the pump off and monitored the voltage it went from 11.9 v to over 13v in about a min. then as the cell stabilized back down to 12.5 shortly after.What could be causing this,I'm not complaining because it dropped down to ideal voltage per plate for efficient production,but I'm puzzled of why it happens.
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Painless
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« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2009, 03:02:39 pm » |
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hg2,
I've noticed that the voltage on our dodge alternators varies according to amp draw. It's almost as if the load has to reach 'steps' as it were before the alternator will kick up to a higher level of output. As I increase the amps to my cell via the PWM duty cycle, I will see the volts go down then jump up again and so on. Must be something to do with the regulator?
Russ.
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hg2
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« Reply #9 on: March 13, 2009, 03:22:50 pm » |
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hg2,
I've noticed that the voltage on our dodge alternators varies according to amp draw. It's almost as if the load has to reach 'steps' as it were before the alternator will kick up to a higher level of output. As I increase the amps to my cell via the PWM duty cycle, I will see the volts go down then jump up again and so on. Must be something to do with the regulator?
Russ.
Or the ecm Russ,because a few weeks ago I was giving someone a jump start and the volt gauge on the dash quickly fell then the check gauge light and the chime came on I shut the truck off and took the jumper cables off then started the truck and the volts came right back up. |
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Bob
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« Reply #10 on: March 13, 2009, 05:09:43 pm » |
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with my Parallel hookup on the "Randy Cells" I could shut off the 12vdc power and still read 2vdc on the cell after it was turned off and disconnected from anything via the relay...
I believe that is because of the "Battery effect" as I call it what is happening is the negitive plate is being changed more than the positive plate.... because of the flow of electrons from positive to negitive... and the negitive plates get eroded faster than the positive plates and that action changes the charastics of the mettle a tiny amount... and now sense there are 2 diferent metals in the supe with diferent electrical properties in each plate
a small flow of electrons can take place...causeing the flow of 2vdc...
this is the same thing faraday discovered with his battery experiments when he used the same metal for plates the flow of electrons wasalmost nill... untill electricity was forced through them ...then one plate became diferent than the other and allowed electron flow...
this is the same principal that the lead acid battery uses in todays car batteries.
no diference at all except the metal being used...we use stainless steel and the Lead acid battery uses lead... and its much easier to change lead than stainless steel...thats why we don't get 12vdc from our Randy cells after shut down...just a few volts...
...
if thats what your talking about... <grin> as far as the altenators go they definately go in steps of voltage output some times...depending on the altenator... some are nice smothe curves....but not all of them are like that... 20 years ago they were all that way but not any more...hehehehe
...
when you load a altenator down with say 30 amps the regulators responce is almost imediate
but it takes a few seconds for the windings to heat up and be able to handle the load
this is the time when your diodes in the altenator are at risk from being over-loaded
but because the rest of the altenator reacts quite fast there is usually no problem
....
I just re read the post again... ( not quite awake yet! <GRIN>)
when you turn on the pump the Load on the battery increases and the voltage accross the cell would decrease because of it.... the larger the pump the larger the load on the battery
and the more your voltage would drop.... once its up and running for a few min the voltage should return to normal... if it still stays below 12vdc then I suspect your wireing is a bit too small... check your wires for getting warm...replace any thats even slightly warm with larger wires... even to the pump!
add up the Pump and the running engine and the cell and you are drawing a great deal of amperage.... hope you have a big altenator on there because you will need it !
.....
thats how I see it....anyway !
...
Bob.....
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« Last Edit: March 13, 2009, 05:16:16 pm by Bob »
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2009, 05:00:00 am » |
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BTW guys I guess I forgot mention that the voltage readings I was taking were at the cell with the new PWM installed.The battery voltage stays constant at around 14.5v when I'm switching on the e-lyte pump and falls slightly when the cell is at peak with the truck idling and the amps the cell is drawing around 60.It only takes a few hundred more RPM's to bring the voltage back up to peak,in other words when I'm driving the system is running at peak.This is what I was talking about in reply # 7
I picked up all the parts Fri.to build the new bubbler/e-lyte recovery unit,that will feature a 1" drain coming from it to the reservoir tank,along with larger gas inlets and outlets.Hopefully if I have time this weekend I'll have it completed and installed to see if this will correct the fluid flow problem I'm having and allow me to move forward with further testing of the cell.
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Bob
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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2009, 05:53:02 am » |
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AHHH ! fantastic Hg2 !
hay Hydrotech just signed into the forum and he has a truck much like yours !
hes the guy you should milk for all the info you can get !
...
a 1 inch like should cure the problem I think...if that ain't big enough nothing will be !
HAHAHAHHAHA!
Keep after it ... you'll get it figured out shortly ! I have fathe in ya !
....
Bob......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2009, 07:35:14 am » |
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Bob after seeing your post wondering what happened to Hydrotech I went over to HGI and got a contact for him and invited him to come and join your forum.
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Bob
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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2009, 01:51:24 pm » |
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HAHAHAH AHHH ! that explains it ! he's back to emailing me again too ! nuttin like sturin'
up a hornets nest ! HAHAHAHA
thank YOU !
O'l John H. is a head strong fella but has a head on his shoulders and it would behove us all to listen to him thats for sure !
...
he said in an email to me that his KOH tests in winter never froze solid ...just slush
and he gets to 12 degrees most nights.... my test froze it solid as a rock so Maybe theres something else going on that I;m not considering... guess I will have to re test....
if KOH in soulution doesn't freeze solid then there is no reason to take the unit off!
and thats good news ! my tests could well be faulty... so I will re do my tests !
...
Randy did tests as well , and I think he achieved slush if memory serves me correctly
....slush won't hurt a thing,except a cold start.... certainly won't bust the container!
...
so its something to consider guys !
...
Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2009, 08:16:50 am » |
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Here's some pics with the new e-lyte recovery bubbler with the 1" drain routing back to the reservior tank,that worked flawlessly.I also added two more inlet fitting for better HHO flow.
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hg2
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« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2009, 09:02:26 pm » |
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Unfortunately I've got some disappointing results to post today.The other day as you remember I was estatic with the reults of 6.88 LPM after installing the new e-lyte pump.Well it seems that data was flawed due to the air space in the primary fluid recovery bubbler was being displaced so rapidly that it was adding a false LPM flow because the e-lyte being pumped in so quickly that was forcing more flow out than there was actual hydroxy output.
When I did a flow test today after installing the new bubbler with the larger drain that doesn't let the e-lyte fill the bubbler like before,I found that my LPM were still around 5LPM.
It was disappointing to say the least to see that my LPM's hadn't increased like I thought.One good thing that did come about for all my time and expense is that the cell is operating now at a much lower temp.than before so in the long run at least it will be somewhat more efficient.
Sorry folks for posting flawed data but I didn't see that one coming.
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Bob
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« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2009, 10:52:06 pm » |
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Not a Problem Hg2... happens to all of us <grin>
if you think about it there really is no way that increasing the flow of water to the cell will increase your HHO output... amps yes...water no...as it is surrounded by water all the time anyway!
...but You have nothing to be ashamed of there buddy, 5LPM and running Cool is a great accomplishment ! and not to be sneezed at ! ... I would be ecstatic if I had that much output!
...
I love the pop off cap on the bubbler... be sure to tie it down though or you'll loose it !
I had mine pop off due to pressure and it luckily got cought in the fender well or it would be along the highway somewhere !
I drilled a tiny hole through the lip of the pop off cap and tied it to the bailing wire with some nilon cord... that way the wing nut isn't hampered for checking the water level!
...
Now get some mileage figures with 5LPM going into that engine ! I bet you'll be happy about the results !
...
Bob........
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2009, 01:56:18 pm » |
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Bob thanks for the advice to tie down the pop-off,the thought never crossed my mind.They're less than $5 but who wants to have to buy another.
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Painless
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« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2009, 05:01:47 pm » |
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Bob
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« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2009, 07:08:05 pm » |
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Painless ! your supposed to be doing that in the garadge not the spare bedroom !
HAHAHAHHAHA or at the very least OUTSIDE!
when I was trying to start that 5hp briggs & Stratton engine on Hydroxy gas it fired back almost every time it turned over... and almost every time the cap would sail a good 200ft in the air !.... I can't throw one that high !
sounded like a shotgun going off !
had to wait a good 6 to 8 seconds to listen for where it landed !
hehehehehhe
with the 3.5hp Briggs it don't do that... because it has points under the flywheel and the 5hp didn't.... so I adjusted the spart closer to TDC than the 5hp could be ... thats the only diference between the two engines beside size.
and with enough HHO I am sure the 3.5hp would run... I just don't have enough yet!
...most I got was about 8 chuggs in a row....just not enough HHO is all.
....
Bob.....
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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Bob
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« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2009, 07:18:10 pm » |
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Hg2:
I don't like the Kinks in the plastic hoses they will restrict your flow a bunch
and probably kink completely off when the electrolyte is warm/hot...! I bet if you drive it a few miles the return line will be kinked 1/2 way closed and the other line (clear one) completely shut off....
You might try bailing wire and tie down the hose further down to help ease the Kink area
and make it a slower bend.... that or put a short piece of stainless steel tubing in the hose where it kinks at...
that or replace it with a much longer hose and give it enough slack as to not Kink so bad !
... Having a KINKY Line is not a good thing on Hydroxy generators... a Kinky line on other things may be ok but not on HHO ! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH
...gott'a watch you boys every second I see ! <GRIN>
HEHEHEHEHE
Bob....
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2009, 09:16:25 pm » |
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Yeah Bob I fixed those kinks you see today,used a 1" 90ell for the drain,and the other drain tube that's kinked was the one I had before and had an extra 3/8" 90ell and just installed it for a backup.I would've gotten away with just a 3/4" drain because even with the bit of a kink in the 1" tube the fluid had no problem flowing back to the reservoir.
One thing I did notice today was that no foam builds in the bubbler using a large drain like this it all goes to the reservoir and floats on top and quickly dissipates before it can cause any problems,the feed to the pump is on the bottom so no foam gets to it at all.Anyone that has a foam problem can easily correct it using this design.
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