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hg2
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« on: January 29, 2009, 04:49:29 pm » |
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I've been using 3/16" spacer gaskets in my Tero cell for quite some time now and they have given me fairly good production with average amperage.
I ordered and shipped 2 members here recently gaskets that were 1/16th"thickness for their new cell builds.I thought it time to try the same with my large plate(9"x9")Tero cell.
I ordered the gaskets last Mon. and picked them up yesterday,I spent the better part of yesterday re-sanding plates(ugggh) and cleaning all other parts for reassembly.
Today I assembled the cell with one change and that was including an 8th plate witch I haven't used since last year,because I found that 6 cells produced better then 7 and had acceptable amp draw.
I bench tested the cell but my wimpy battery charger wouldn't keep up and so I decided to go ahead and reinstall it on my truck.
I mixed the new KOH e-lyte to 28 % by weight as before and wired it using 6 cells which is the way I've been running for some time now and after starting the truck I went to the front and the amp gauge was buried(it's maxed at 60 amps).
So I reduced the KOH with distilled water switched over to 8 plates and fired it up again,this time the amps were high(55-58) but not off the scale as before.I took a test drive to do a service call for about an hour and a half and when I got back the amps were still around 58.I felt the terminals at the cell and they were hotter than ever before,so I decided to upgrade the wires from awg10 to awg 6.
After changing out the wiring I again started the truck and after only 10 minutes run time the amps again pegged the amp gauge and the output was so rigorous it was shaking the tubing violently.
Then it started raining(sounds like a novel huh?)so I'm still waiting to go back out and again thin out the E-lyte to try and get the amps under control.
So bottom line the 1/16" gasket upgrade made a helluva difference in both production and amps.I'm ecstatic with this new found improvement and can't wait for it to stop raining so I can finish dialing it in.
Btw yes I did take a flow test today and before the wire upgrade I went from 3.5LPM to well I'm not sure but it did fill a 1 gallon jug in 41 seconds,you do the math I'm too tired.
I'll post further results after getting the amps under control by reducing the e-lyte concentration.
Bottom line is thinner gaskets on a Tero equals more output.
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« Last Edit: January 31, 2009, 03:32:15 pm by hg2 »
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Painless
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2009, 05:12:00 pm » |
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That's really encouraging, hg. Just to make sure I understand, your Tero has 9"x9" plates and you're only using 8 of them to reach that much production?
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hg2
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 06:00:53 pm » |
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Correct I had to add an 8 th plate and adjust the e-lyte lower to keep the amps at a low roar.
Yeah shocked me too!!
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Painless
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 06:48:24 pm » |
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So, assuming 13.8 volts we get:
13.8 (volts) x 58 (amps) = 800.4 watts
8 9x9 plates = 1,134 sq inches surface area
1,134 / 800.4 = 1.417 sq inches per watt
How is the cell temp?
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numberonekiwi
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2009, 06:49:09 pm » |
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I work out 5.12 LPM
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hydrotinkerer
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2009, 06:50:19 pm » |
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So far I thought something was wrong with mine because it violently produced gas after I changed to 1/16" gaskets. I'll put 4 more neutrals in mine and see how it does. That will put my lttle cell at 29 plates total.
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hg2
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« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 01:27:35 am » |
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5.12 LPM well as they say down here in Fla. "THAT AIN'T BAD"
After being up most of last night with pain from the yanked wisdom tooth(which came out in pieces thank you very much)and working on the cell all day,while waiting for it to stop raining to finish the install my lack of sleep caught with me.
Russ, my overall voltage never got over 12.8 even with the rpms around 1500.Dodging the rainstorms I did manage to thin the KOH(for the third time) but went too far and the amps dropped to 30 but the cell was still producing well(started raining again so I wasn't able to do a flow test).I fell out for a 6 hour nap after that and will try adjusting the e-lyte ratio again tomorrow.
After driving the truck today for an hour and a half @ 55-58 amps the temp wasn't bad at all,and that was before I changed the power leads from 10 awg to 6 awg.Then that's when the plates were cooler at the connection tabs but then the amps ramped up(in less than 10 minutes run time) and again pegged my 60 amp gauge.Once I get the amps where the cell will run stable for long periods I'll know if I have any heat issues.
HT I would definitely try adding neutrals for a 6N4 before adding isolation plates.I think plate gaps this thin are too much to run a 5n configuration,I think the heat will always be an issue.
Well tomorrows another day and hopefully the rain will stop so I can do further testing and adjustments to get things stabilized for extended run times.My work sometimes takes a 4 to 5 hour drive to get there,so I want to make sure I don't have any runaway heat issues first.
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hg2
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« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 02:01:24 pm » |
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Finally got the amps under control today,the final concentration of KOH ratio was around 16 % by weight.The amps are riding about 52-55 and the temp. after 3 hours run time was 128*F(the best I could tell with the wife's Pampered Chef cooking thermometer).I did sacrifice some production lowering the amps but that's expected.The last flow test floated a 1 gallon jug in 49 seconds,also got the voltage back up to 13.8V(it was low yesterday due to the high amp draw at idle). Well I guess the next things to buy(why is that with HHO improvements hahaha)is a 200 amp relay,100 amp circuit breaker and the big bill a 240-280 amp alternator $550-$850  http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/bosch.html At least I know that I can run up amps and production by just increasing the KOH concentration,that is after I can afford the charging system upgrade. |
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Painless
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« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2009, 05:04:53 pm » |
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My Ram has the same issue, as do most vehicles I suppose, it will support 60+ amps fine as long as the rpms are over 1,000. As soon as they drop under that though, the battery voltage plummets as the alternator can't keep up.
Instead of buying a new alternator, how about modifying the feed speed of your current one?
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stl_hemi
Newbie
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2009, 07:02:31 pm » |
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13.8 volts? Man you 1500 guys are getting screwed. Buy a Red top battery and a OEM 160 amp alt. Running down the road today at 15.2volts stready.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hg2. Man I wish I would have got the 1/16 not istead of the 3/32nds.
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Paul
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Painless
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2009, 07:27:44 pm » |
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13.8 volts? Man you 1500 guys are getting screwed. Buy a Red top battery and a OEM 160 amp alt. Running down the road today at 15.2volts stready.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm hg2. Man I wish I would have got the 1/16 not istead of the 3/32nds.
my 4.7 usually runs at between 14.1 and 14.5 volts  How much can you get a 160 amp for? |
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stl_hemi
Newbie
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2009, 07:57:02 pm » |
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Optima's. I bought mine off ebay 2 years for the rig. The 160 alt came oem from Dodge with mine. I have a snowplow prep package on my rig. Like I can get a plow on the ground with my lift though. Model on the Optima is 34/78. Paid $150 for it. That 1/2 volt more make all the diff in the world guys for production. |
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Paul
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Manta
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2009, 10:20:18 am » |
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What about the other 12 volt (nominal) equipment on the vehicle. lights etc. Don't you run a risk of blowing things if you are running at around 20 % over voltage all the time ?
Manta
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Good questions have a sting in the tail.
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hg2
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2009, 11:02:21 am » |
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What about the other 12 volt (nominal) equipment on the vehicle. lights etc. Don't you run a risk of blowing things if you are running at around 20 % over voltage all the time ?
Manta
Interesting point Manta,I wonder if info regarding system voltage limitations is available.But here again StlHemi has been using over 15V for 2 years now with no electrical problems(none that he's posted).I've never checked my voltage without any load on it to see what the max is with just the motor running,I've only checked voltages since installing HHO on my truck. |
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2009, 03:21:46 pm » |
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My '06 4.7 runs at 14.1 volts with no load.
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hg2
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2009, 03:40:39 pm » |
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I just checked mine with no load and it was 14.6V
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Manta
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2009, 06:03:07 pm » |
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My Citroen gives 13.5 Volt when running with a charged battery. Drops a bit if the battery is low. So maybe it is safe. But there must be a 'never exceed' voltage for some items.
Manta
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stl_hemi
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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2009, 10:51:59 pm » |
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I've never had a issue at all. Lights are bright as hell. I've got 80,000 miles on my 04 and over 50,000 miles on the Optima. But my headlights are HID's. Keep in mind my electrical system was setup for a Snowplow load on the electrical. I'd be leary still of hanging over 60 amps on my rig though. I'd have to get a bigger alt if I go higher in the amps. http://www.nationsautoelectric.com/bosch.htmlThey sell a Bosch 180 and a 230. Not cheap though. |
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Paul
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stl_hemi
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« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2009, 11:16:27 pm » |
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I suppose you could get a overdrive alt pulley to drive it higher on the oem unit but you would burn it up faster.
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Paul
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Bob
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« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2009, 03:20:17 am » |
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Well I'm glad the 1/16" gaskets are proving to be really a Great improvement! I was sure they would be! ... Randy gave me a Web address of a place he found that had all kinds of alternators that were very reasonable in price... up to 350amp alternators for just about any vehicle ! .... I had settled on a 170amp for $169. plus shipping, but about then is when all hell broke loose here financially... ( again ) ........ I found the site for ya... really good buys here but look around there is lots of stuff hidden ! http://www.alternatorparts.com/....... 5.17LPM for 55amps is darn good ! and something to write home about ! if that don't make a diference in your gas milage your doing something seriously wrong !...( like the COMPUTER is getting ya bad!) ... these guys have 250 and 350 amp altenators too ! probly cost you your "firstborn" but at least they have'em .... Bob......... |
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2009, 02:41:46 pm » |
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Bob I kinda like that external rectifier they show that would(from the way I understand it)take the brunt of high amp draw off my internal rectifier.If that in fact what it does it would probably extend the life of my alternator.
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Bob
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2009, 11:28:41 pm » |
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Yah they say those are the Double rectifier Altenators if I'm not mistaken...
and they clame the "Double rectifier" Ones are far more Robust and last much longer under heavy amp draw. so Yah, I'ed think it would be wise to get a double rectifier...a bunch more expensive than the regular ones but probly worth it in the end.... Lets face it, even with a huge 13' camper on the back of your truck you would play heck drawing 200amps, even with an inverter powering a microwave and colorTV !.... so what we are drawing in amps isn't just high ampreage its HUMONGUS to what they are used too ! so its probly a good idea to get the best as I fear a smaller cheeper altenator will burn up under those conditions even if you only draw half its raited amps !... and if it does your SOL.... gott'a remember that ! with no backup alt your flat stuck along the road with a dead battery !
...
Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2009, 11:42:23 pm » |
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Yeah what I liked about it is that you can install it on your existing alternator fairly cheap and easy.
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hg2
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« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2009, 05:17:38 pm » |
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I'm still in the process of dialing in the 1/16" gasket refit.So far I've had to drop from 28 % by weight koh to distilled down to 7 % to keep the amps under 60.Before with the 3/16" gaskets I was drawing around 40 amps.
As of now I'm having trouble with 1 plate that has only 1 v(all others all 2.25v)or less,I tried reversing the power leads and the same plate is having issues.
My LPM increase has been great so far running the 1/16" gaskets,I went from 3.5LPM(with 3/16" gaskets) to over 5 LPM with the 1/16th"refit.After I chase down the plate voltage drop that LPM number should go up.
I'll post more results as I get them.
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Bob
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« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2009, 06:04:02 pm » |
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WOOT FANTASTIC !
Well done Hg2 ! 5LPM is realy good output !
...
I have no idea why you'ed have a voltage drop on one plate.... that boggels my mind!
sounds impossable from all I know, but then I don't know much ! HAHAHAHAHA
please keep us informed !
...
Bob......
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hg2
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« Reply #26 on: February 09, 2009, 06:26:42 pm » |
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Bob I'm thinking Ihave a piece of debris of some kind stuck in between the plates.it's the only thing I can think of that would be causing the voltage drop besides a warped plate.
I have to work all day for the next 2 days so it'll have to wait until then to pull the cell and tear it down to see what's going on in there.
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Bob
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« Reply #27 on: February 09, 2009, 09:25:24 pm » |
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take a Red Felt tip pin and mark along the outside of the plate to make darn sure you get the right one !.... and check its resistance from cornor to oppisit cornor with a VTOM and see if it has more or less resistance than the other plates...... thats all I can think of to check out that plate...
it could be debree...or even some stuff stuck on the gasket... but I'ed think that would constitute a short to the other plates ( which is evident in the other voltage readings)...depending on how tight you made the bolts ( how thin you squeezed the gaskets) I doubt its a warped plate... if they are FLAT (check them with a steel ruler/stright edge.) if their flat its probly debree in there causing the problem.......
When you stack up a bunch of gaskets and plates like that and begin to squeeze them real tightly the gaskets closest to the nuts will squeeze first... then the ones further towards the middle...
... so you will have a inconsistant plate spaceing... to correct this lay the cell on its side and tap each bolt with a hammer to even out the tension through all the gaskets. if you don't even out the tension you will have some plates much closer than others.... typically the middle of the cell will be fairly wide and the outside 2 plates will be squished almost flat !...
you might find that by tapping each bolt with a hammer will cure the problem completely ! so try that before you dissasemble the thing!
you never know ...it could happen ! <GRIN>
...
I wish I had that cell here ! I'ed put it to use on my toyota Cilica ! I bet 5LPM would double the milage on that car.... its got a 1.6liter engine and gets a consistant 30mpg now....
getting 60MPG would realy be nice <GRIN>
...
is that your 8"x8" 7 plate cell or the multi-cell dry cell ?
...
Bob......
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Painless
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« Reply #28 on: February 11, 2009, 05:01:36 pm » |
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you might find that by tapping each bolt with a hammer will cure the problem completely ! Bob, you didn't used to be a TV repairman by chance, did you? |
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Bob
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« Reply #29 on: February 11, 2009, 10:47:14 pm » |
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Why do you ask ? do you know a TV repairman that uses a hammer to fix the problems ?
HAHAHAHHA... No Never done that for others just myself... can't blame it on me ! NOOOOoooo Sir!
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Bob......
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Cowboy
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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2009, 05:58:26 pm » |
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I'm a radio repairman and I'm a firm believer in the 3/2 fix. 3 ft off the ground, drop it twice, and it's fixed.
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hg2
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« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2009, 05:44:11 am » |
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Today(Mon. 2/16) I'm pulling the cell and dismantling it to chase down the voltage drop I have with 1 plate.I'm also adding e-lyte and outlet fittings to the opposite endplate and increasing the fittings from 1 of each on one endplate to 2 of each on both end plates to increase e-lyte feed and outlet pressure.I'm also elongating the outlet holes at the top of the plates to allow for gas accumulation to hopefully reduce all the yakking of e-lyte the cell does since the 1/16" gasket refit.This should also help with maintaining e-lyte levels,a problem I've been having since the refit. I think once this is done I'll have even more output  because of the 1 bum plate with less than 1 volt pulling it's weight like the rest that all have 2.25volts. Will post all results later this evening. |
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Bob
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« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2009, 07:52:15 am » |
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Ok... I gott'a Ask... what is Yakking ? your electrolyte is Yakking ? you mean makeing like a Yakk and runnin all over the place ? or curteling like Yakks Milk in a warm sun ? or are you refureing to the cell is complaining to you about the way its been treeted ? Yakking on all the time and won't get any work done ?
a bit more clarification would help those of us that ain't smart enough to read ur Mind !
or put 2 and 2 togather !
....
<GRIN>
( get the butterfly net ready boys cuz if its talking to him we got a live one !)
HAHAHAHAHAHA
(couldn't resist! sorry Hg2 but I just couldn't pass it up... with all that Yakking going on out there ! )
....
HAHAHAH
Bob........
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hg2
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« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2009, 08:36:28 am » |
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Ok Bob here goes:Your last post makes me want to yack.
Examples:puke,throwup,spitout and the one a lot of us have done after party's,weddings and mostly after bachelor parties,praying to the porcelain god.
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Bob
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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2009, 08:55:11 am » |
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Hummm so your Hydroxy cell is Puking all over the place, and you hope to stop it by elongating the holes.....
Man I'm glad you cleared that up for us ! ....had me really worried ! <GRIN>
.... but a Bubble pump Yakks all the time .... thats how it works.... thats normal !
don't worry about it buddy ! let it throw up , it won't hurt a thing !
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHA
....
Bob........
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hg2
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« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2009, 09:04:28 am » |
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The big problem Bob is that on long trips it will do it until the cell is almost dry.This never happened before when I was using 3/16" gaskets and producing 3.5 LPM ,now the output is almost twice that.We'll see if the mods I'm doing will correct the problem(hopefully).
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randy
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« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2009, 12:33:46 pm » |
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You've run into the same problem I had, what causes it is the gas and fluid is leaving the cell faster then it can recirculate, 1" inlet and outlet cured mine, but the volume in the resivour still rose up quite high when running.
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Bob
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« Reply #37 on: February 16, 2009, 11:25:32 pm » |
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Well SEE ! there ya go ! Randy has the cure fer ya ! ...thanks Randy ! any luck on your Big Randy cell lately  ... Bob....... |
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hg2
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« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2009, 08:19:46 am » |
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You've run into the same problem I had, what causes it is the gas and fluid is leaving the cell faster then it can recirculate, 1" inlet and outlet cured mine, but the volume in the resivour still rose up quite high when running.
Thanks Randy for the idea,that was something I was also thinking of if the added inlets and outlets didn't work. So far it seems to have cured the problem for now but I won't know for sure until I take a long trip because that's when the cell would almost go dry. Ahhhh the joy of trial and (mostly)error. |
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hg2
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« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2009, 05:33:24 pm » |
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I'm still having issues with voltage drop on now several plates.I noticed it when checking plate voltage and the one I was checking at the time went from 2.32 volts down to under 1 volt.After letting the cell run and warm up I found 2 more doing the same thing.I think what's happening is the plates being so large(9"x9") and along with the new 1/16" gaskets that the plates are warping as the cell warms up,because the plate voltage on those pates is ok up until the cell warms up.
The only thing I can think of to remedy the problem is to revert back to the original tero plans that show a small square of gasket material placed in the middle of the plates to prevent them from bowing when they get hot.
So it looks like another remove and tear down(GRRRRRRR)to see if this might cure the problem.
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Bob
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« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2009, 06:21:06 pm » |
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Hg2:
Are you using real soft gasket meterial and squeezing them real tight ? if so that tightness
is probly bringing the plates very close togather indeed ! and the plates warping might cause a plate to short out against another plate...check continuity between the plates not the voltage... warm it up and turn it off and check for continuity between plates
if there is continuity, even a small amount something is amiss !
If the plates were shorting out against each other two plates would act like 1 plate and your voltage would then show a corosponding change...instead of 2vdc each plate 2 plates would share that voltage and become 1vdc each... so it sounds like your on the right track
adding a piece of gasket meterial in the center of each plate should stop the warpage in its tracks !... unfortionately you have to dissameble the thing to add the gasket piece...
but think of it as assembly practice ! HAHAHAHAHHAHAHA
how thick are your 9"x9" plates ?
...
Bob........
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hg2
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« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2009, 08:57:14 pm » |
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Bob my plates are 16 ga. thick and the neoprene gaskets are the same kind of good commercial grade I've been using for over a year only not this thin.The reason I tore it down last week was for the bum plates voltage and I did notice on those 2 plates that faced one another that there was what looked like black burn spots about 1/8" in diameter in the middle of the 2 plates and in the exact location on both plates.
I guess like you said it'll require some more "Practice Assembly"along with a center spacer. HAHA.
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Bob
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« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2009, 09:22:19 am » |
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YUP,Yup... thats the sign of a plate shorting out. so you did find it!
I would use 1/4" square or just a tad larger Smaller than 1/2" square for your center spacer
and it might be advisable to add a bit of adhesive ( rubber cement/silicone) to one side of that little thing so it cannot move on you.
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that tells me to get thicker plating than 16guage ! because I don't want my cell plates to worp
and short out.... its that or add a "HG2-spacer" in there!....<GRIN>
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My plates will be .24 guage, 12"x12" and consist of 7 plates and hopefully fed with a minimum of 75 amps.
132.25 sqr in each plate with 1/2" gasket times 7 plates =925.75 sqr inches.
0.0810 amps per square inch....to as much as 100 amps makes 0.1080 amps per sqr inch.
(75amps/925.75 and 100amps/925.75)
... this is calculating all the plate area however...but its what I am used to , and I know the "Randy cell" that worked so extremely well has 0.03api... so it should work even better than the "Randy cell" but probably generate 4 times the heat ! <GRIN>
but I am after LPM and I don't care about the heat, I'll deal with that when I come to it!
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if I make the cell a "in a dip" type I'll have 144sqr.in. x 7 = 1,008sqr. in.
using the same amperage as before gives me 0.0744api for 75 amps and 0.0992api for 100amps
...as you can see either way it should STILL produce very well
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this setup will require a new larger alternator and a cooling system for the cell and I am planning on both... but I am hoping to net 20LPM from just 1 cell like this , if I don't get it from one I will build another ! and run 2 in parallel like Scratch is doing.
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THE BIG PROBLEM is ...can I draw that much amperage ?, or will the saturation of water by the electrolyte stop me from doing that.... and I think it will !
so my output will be limited to the saturation of water in a 28% KOH/water setup or Koolaid
and I don't think Koolaid will get me as many amps as the KOH will !
but time will tell.
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thats my Plan and time is getting closer where I can start getting the parts.to make this monster !
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Bob.......
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"Mother always told me "Son the Imposable is only a little bit harder"...and You know ... She WAS RIGHT!"
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hg2
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« Reply #43 on: February 19, 2009, 01:55:38 pm » |
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Yeah Bob I just hope the "HG SPACER" cures my "GD PROBLEM". LOL
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