The Monster Cell

[Painless]

Bob,

Your design looks good, you've got all the hoses in the right places.

Hydro,

I like danes plates very much, they are extremely flat and cut very accurately with laser equipment.  A trip in the dishwasher cleaned them up very well, even after my fudge up.

I'm definitely going to divide up the plates by placing some hollowed out plastic, like a very thick gasket, in between the divides.  This hollowed out wall will have an exit barb in the top so that the HHO and electrolyte have several places to exit.

Russ.

[hg2]

  Russ I'll get a cost on the gaskets for you on Monday when they open.I know the plates are 3"x5",just let me know the thickness,if you want to stay with 1/24" inch(if they carry material that thin I don't know)or if you plan to go to a slightly thicker gasket.

[Bob]

Painless:
 thanks for your approval on the hoses anyway <GRIN>
I take it you didn't like much of anything else on it ? hehehehhehe
...
the reason I'm Hurrassing you on this is because you DIDN'T say anything about the plates being turned 45deg. so the peek is UP so the gases flow up and out and less plate area is negated due to the plates being horizontal....
   I thought it a good way to make a square shaped Dry cell wetter ! in fact I am kind'a surprised I'm the only one that has said anything about it as of yet... but I've never seen one on the peek like that and I think its a really good idea !
 although at first thought  you wouldn't think your loosing that much plate area due to the bubble of gas held in the cell when its horizontal but even if its only 1/4" of the top edge of the plate that is left exposed all the time and can't generate gas, that on this plate design equals .25x12"=3"x5plates =15sqr inches not being used... so it adds up Fast!
...
although I don't have the Pop off caps drawn in on both containers, rest assured they would be there and replace the glue on caps on both containers<GRIN>
....
also after Manta's Ranting about big plates and mutable hookups to the plates I desided to add a electrical connection  of the same polarity on the same plate at 90deg. to each other
so in essence all 4 cornors have wires going to them being 2 pos 2 neg ... that way IF the plate resistance is enough to knock down some production as the distance away from the electrical connection is increased the 2nd connection on the other side of the plate should nip it in the bud so to speak and give full production from the plate all over it! not just the upper half!
... I figure its cheep insurance if nothing else, and it will help in handling large amounts of amperage !
...
I was Hopeing You guys that are still building now that the snow is on the ground, would
see these changes as "good things" to put on your cells ! HAHAHHAHAHA and that way I could see if they actually help ! hehehehehe  !!!!!!
...
...I could re draw it with 49 plates in it... if that would make ya like it more ! 
heheheheheh<GRIN>
...
Bob....

 

[Tink]

Guys,
2 suggestions here:

1, Maby a dry/wet cell hybred of sorts where there is a resivor at the bottom of the cell to collect the goo and stuff.

2, the use of a 'de-sulfator' like we use in solar applications to knock off the sulfate that builds up over time in the wet cell solar batteries. I'm thinking the de-sulfators are somewhat like the PWM's in that they send a controled pulse through the battery while charging. This pulse is of a certain frequency that acks like a harmonic to kick off the sulfate. It's not used to, and does not, control amps.

Bob,
Standing the cell on a corner is a novel idea. It may have some merit.

Tink

[Manta]

Tink,

Don't the de-sulphators give something like a very sharp 70-90 volt pulse ?  I remember something about having to put a small choke between the unit and alternator if you were running it on your car.

Manta

[Painless]

Bob,

I can be a man of few words sometimes and the king of understatement (something we British suffer from).  The diamond shape is a great idea, I would have done same had my plates been more square.  You will maximise your production area this way.

Russ.

[Painless]

  Russ I'll get a cost on the gaskets for you on Monday when they open.I know the plates are 3"x5",just let me know the thickness,if you want to stay with 1/24" inch(if they carry material that thin I don't know)or if you plan to go to a slightly thicker gasket.

I have been giving serious thought to going back to the thicker 1/16th gasket this time, I've proven that my sub 1mm width ( before compression ) is just a recipe for shorts if it clogs.

[hg2]

  Russ I do admit when I first read you were using 1/24" gaskets I did cringe a little.I didn't say anything because I know you as one of the more active HHO experimenters and I figured you knew gaskets that thin would work.What you said does make sense that ultra thin gaskets can lead to shorts and clogs and another possibility could have been a plate(or plates) warping under the stress and shorting out causing excess heat.

  I think 1/16" will work fine after all that's half the thickness TeroRanta had on the original plans.

  You might want to wait a bit to see how Hydrotinkerers new cell tests out before you decide on thickness.He finished assembly last Fri. and he's using 1/16" neoprene on his 5N4 design and should be posting results here soon.

[Painless]

I know from my experience that 2/16th's runs cool but it's tough to pull any useful amount of amps.  My last cell, a twin stack of 26 plates total, couldn't pull more than 15 amps no matter how much KOH I added.

The 0.040" gaskets produce like nobody's business and don't have issues with overheating.  The same 26 plate cell with the 0.040" gaskets pulled 2.33 LPM at a 5.4 MMW.

The small plate gap is OK, as long as nothing gets into the cell that can't get out.  That said, I am decided that a drop to 1/16th's is the way to go.  Expense, however, is always and issue.

Russ.

[Bob]

Hummmmm...
in order to make an INTELLIGENT decision on the plate gap boys, don't we need to examine the LPM output of both plate gaps in question ?
 if the thinner plate gap produced 2 times as much Hydroxy gas than the 1/16" plate gap
I think it would be well worth the hassle of trying to keep the cell super clean
 you could after all run the input line to the cell through a filter before it goes into the cell, as Long as you have good water Movement...(as far as I'm concerned the more water movement the better !)
However if the LPM difference is minimal say only 1/2 LPM at max. then its not worth the dangers or hassles...
but My experience has showed me that getting the plate gap BELOW 1/16" is where it counts for LPM output... the small difference in gap there makes a huge difference in output
...
I went from 1/16" gap on one of my experimental cells and it produced about 1/4LPM
changed it to the thickness of the nylon folders (2 washers per side so double thickness)
and the production went up to 1.5LPM.... and this was with Normal steel plates !not stainless
at the time I was pushing about 30 amps so it was not great production at all, but the difference in plate spacing showed a Huge improvement over all...
I did the experiment with same number of plates and same amp draw , only thing changed was the plate spacing... I figured that the improvement was almost 3~4 times that of the original
setup...
if that can be translated to your cells by simply using .020 plate spacing isn't that worth it ?... Just make sure the Shit flows OUT of the cell instead of sets in there !
thats all you have to do !
....Granted the cell I used was just a bigger version of a Randy cell and not a dry cell
so the goo could be gotten rid of easily...
... I'ed be interested in noting the differences in output if you have any figures for us on that <GRIN>
...
But you guys know your Dry cells better than I do ...by far, and if you think that there is no way to keep the goo from getting stuck between the plates then I'll have to go along with ya on it !....  I suppose it depends upon the cell and the water flow through it
without a pump I'ed have a tenancy to think "it may not work at all" because of the goo buildup.... but with a pump, there should be no problem !
...
Comments ?
...
Bob........

[Tink]

Manta,
I'll look into that, I don't remember just how they work but they do extend the life of the batteries since they don't allow the sulfate to build up on the plates as fast. I'll get back to you on that in a few days.
Tink