The Monster Cell

[Painless]

Those that know me from hhoforums.com will know that I am in the habit of sharing my whole adventures, good and bad, when it comes to HHO.  Here's a summary of where I've been so far:

I've been building my own design of dry cell, based on Lowes switchplate covers and other readily available Lowes parts, my last creation had 25 plates and produced 2.33 LPM of HHO at about 110 F.  MMW was about 6.3 with a PWM.

The issue I've been having with my Dodge Ram (4.7 L) is that I haven't yet been able to produce enough HHO to make it even blink.  Based on research I'm now shooting for 4 LPM upwards.

And so, I've abandoned the switch plate covers for some proper laser cut SS plates and build what I call my 'Monster Cell' (actually named by another forum member from his reaction to this photo):



Here's the reservoir I've built for this cell from 12" long, 3" wide PVC pipe:



The new cell has 49 plates and is built in a 5 neutral configuration.  At the moment it's ticking over gently on a 12v power supply but I'm hoping to give it a try in the truck over the weekend.

My fingers are crossed for 4+ LPM at 45-50 amps!

Russ.

[hg2]

  Great looking dry cell build Russ.What size plates and spacing did you use?Also is the 5 neutral setup you mentioned configured +nnnnn- (I didn't use use all 49 for the example too much typing haha)?

[Painless]

Yup, the configuration is +NNNNN-, I did test 6 neutrals but just couldn't pull more than 20 amps, even on the alternator.  The gaskets are 0.040" thick (1/24").  As for the size of the plates, they are approximately 5"x3" made from 304L stainless.

[hg2]

  Yeah I never could get much production with a 7 cell configuration 6 seems to work best and the jury is still out on 5 cells,I still believe with 5 cells your making more steam than quality hydroxy with only 4 neutrals.I must say that 1/24" spacing is the closest I've ever heard anyone going with.Do you think that's enough space for the bubbles to move freely enough through?Well as they say the proofs in the puddin(or the carrots heheheh),you'll see once you have it installed on the vehicle and running max voltage through it.Btw did you use flat spacers or o-rings?

[Bob]

VERY Nice Painless !
I see no truble for the 1/24" spaceing myself as the Randy cells work fantastic on less spaceing than that... ( those hydroxy bubbles are very very small indeed!)
...
Looks like it should work great for you ! plan on 2 of them however ! <GRIN>
Remember Hydrotech's 8LPM and 74MPG on his big truck ?
that took him 3 cells in series to do that but he did accomplish it !
in this case 2 or 3 in parallel should get you what you need...
 I think your headding in the right direction... you just need MORE !
hehehehe
...
Bob.......

[Painless]

I know what you mean bob. This cell has twice the number of plates plus each plate is about 30% bigger than the old ones. I've been using the shower pan liner gaskets for a while, so expect good results with those.

I'm expecting about 4 LPM from this cell and am going to compliment it with home made water injection once I'm satisfied its working well enough.
I've followed the work of another youtuber with the same year, model and engine truck and he got about 30% improvement at 3.5 LPM. All he did though was install o2 extenders, I'm going a lot further than that with home designed and built MAP, IAT and O2 modifying circuits. 

[Bob]

Honnestly I think the O2 extenders just make the computers automatic adjustment a bit less!
I don't think its a cure by any means... its just a band-aid!  so fixing it right the first time will save you lotsa greef in the long run !
...<grin>
Bob.......
( but I do sware by that Matt Valve!)

[hg2]

  Russ where do you buy the pop off plugs shown on your bubbler?

[crb]

I've seen those plugs at lowes.
crb

[Painless]

They are in the plumbing section at Lowes.

[Painless]

Well, I did some flow tests today and got 4 LPM at about 40 odd amps. The engine note changed when I connected the HHO hose, so I'm fairly confident that its having an effect. I plan to fill up tomorrow and see what happens without any mods at first.

[Bob]

WOOO HOOO thats good output Painless ! I bet it will help allot
although you may not gain any MPG without any other mods but I expect you WILL Notice the power increase.... I did with only 2.5LPM on my 2.5Liter toyota R22...
...sure there is a huge diference in size but your getting in the ball park now and it should start to make a diference in that big monster truck !
...
I wish ya Luck !
...
Bob.......

[Painless]

Thanks Bob!

I've been at this for quite some time now, building bigger cells each time to increase output and still seeing no gains. This is the first time I've had any audible reaction from my engine. When I connected the hose, I heard the rpms rise slightly then fall as the ECU adjusted things.

I've always been fearful that some are seeing gains only through leaning and may be damaging their engines long term. I've purchased and installed an exhaust gas temperature gauge and established a good baseline of readings at different cruise speeds before HHO. This will be my safety guide before trying my home made MAP, IAT or O2 mod circuits.

Russ.

[hg2]

  Russ where did you get your EGT gauge and how much are they?I'm still dialing in my Dodge and have also been fearful of going too high with the MV.

  The way I've heard it from a few sources is that you don't want to exceed 180deg F(over the stock temp readings) when adjusting the O2 efie.Have you seen the same or other when researching the use of efies with EGT gauges?

[Painless]

This is the gauge I use:

http://www.glowshiftdirect.com/elite-7-color-2200-exhaust-gas-temperature-egt-pyrometer.aspx

Not a bad deal on price and the install is fairly easy, the only tough part is drilling and tapping the exhaust manifold.  I ended up installing mine around the same area as the oxygen sensor as the manifold was very slim and other areas were hard to get to with a drill.

I took some baselines from my Ram stock:

Idle: 700 F
30 mph: 900 F
40 mph: 950 F
50 mph: 1,000 F
55 mph: 1,100 F

For a full throttle run from standstill to 70 mph, its passing 1,500 F when I hit the brakes.

So far, it seems to be running a little cooler (about 100 F, if that) with the new cell on, I haven't started on tuning electronics yet though.  I want to take it one step at a time and monitor results, I have an ELM327 OBD interface to my laptop and am collecting data at each stage.

[hg2]

  That is a great deal,the cheapest I'd found looking for one was $170

      Thanks Russ

[Bob]

Painless:
 Glad you are proceeding slowly and understanding everything at each step AND collecting data!
that will be of great help in the future for you, I am sure !
....
I found that the more Hydroxy gas I introduced to the Engine the COOLER it ran....
I know that sort'a defies logic but that is what I found....not by a large amount but a few hundred degrees is all ... I noticed that on my water temp guage in the truck...
when Headded home on a hot day ( over 95deg) normially the truck would get to the 3/4 mark on temp on the big long steep hill comeing home... with the Hydroxy unit running at full blast it barely got above 1/2 which is where it normially sets in normal operation.
so although I can't rationalize why its cooler, it does seem to be that way!
...and this is after I added the "Matt-Valve" and leaned out the gasoline in Normal running
(that adding of the Matt valve I expected to raise the running temp a great deal but it didn't effect it at all!)
...
My conclusion then is , I'm not running it very lean at all.... and that more Hydroxy gas will cool the engine down even more, this is a good thing in both regards !
because I should be able to get more than 40MPG when I put the cell back on and not have to worry about over heating eather!
....
I don't know if you will discover the same thing or not, but I hope so !
but remember although you have 4LPM its still a drop in the bucket for that big engine...
you need 8LPM at least, 12LPM would be even better if you can get it.
....then you'll realy see some amageing Milage! as long as you reduce the gasoline at the same time, if you don't reduce the gasoline it will go through the gas anyway...
its very very important to REDUCE the gasoline... to lean out the engine to the point it barely runs and then turn on the Hydroxy unit and see if it smoothes out real nice...
I had that on my truck for only about 2 weeks before things started going sower... output dropped, and a few other things all hit at once .
but thats what I did and it worked for me.
...
Hope that helps
...
Bob.......

[Painless]

Thanks for the input, Bob.

The reason your truck ran cooler is probably due to:

A) HHO combusts into water vapour, which absorbs heat.

B) Your cell is adding steam as well as HHO, which absorbs heat.

Leaning is the next step for me plus I already have MAP & O2 mods in place (that I built myself) ready for it.  I really wanted to go one step at a time so I can understand and document how the trucks computer is reacting at each stage.

I'm also quite sure that more hydroxy gas will be needed, but for the moment I'm generating what I can generate without blowing up my alternator!!!

[hg2]

  Russ what amp alternator do you have in your Dodge?

[Bob]

thats the same reason I stopped where I was Russ.... Alternator !
when I finally get enough Money to get a Bigger alternator I am thinking I will get the biggest one I possibly can... because all I can see in the future is more amp draw if I am to run this beastie on 100% hydroxy gas!
...
... My finances are worse than shot for the time being... Not only the extra expenses of Mom's demise but shuttleing my Sis around has had hefty charges assoiacated with it, takeing her out to dinner and such that I normially wouldn't have done....and today I get the trafic citation thing in the mail and they want $412.00... NO Kidding ! $412.00 for running a red light...when no body was around !
 I only get $589.00 from disability... and they want it all ?
guess I go to court and say "Oh purty please have pitty on me , I didn't mean it I was a bad boy and I promice not to do it ever again .... and I can't pay this high dam fine!"
.... what a great socioty we live in !  I'm hopeing the state of california will go bankrupt and desolve itself into nothing !  we could call ourselves the Californicated state of nevada
or Orefornicatada.... or....
 HEHEHEHEHHE the rich dudes down south would never let that happen , there's too much money to be made from stealing from the people!
...
and My truck Licenses WAS $77.00.... but sense its late and needs a smog( that is WHY its late,btw) they raised it to $111.00 ....  I tell ya the buzzards are really circling around here!...
Bob......

 

[Painless]

  Russ what amp alternator do you have in your Dodge?

Mine has the 136 amp.

[Tink]

Bob,
It really might help to go to court and state your case (humbly!) I did that a few years ago to find out the cop who wrote the ticket was discharged from the force and so didn't appear and the case was thrown out. You never know what might happen but it is always better to go and fight it. Have you recently flushed out your radiator? My truck (like yours) has never gotten above the 1/2 mark (heat) except when I broke a fan belt. It always is at 1/4 to 1/3 no matter what. Those Toyota 22R engines have huge water jackets and should never overheat. The neddle will get to the 1/2 mark after startup but only for a minute then the thermostate opens and the neddle should drop to the 1/3 mark and stay there. Even in Death Valley at 135degrees mine didn't overheat.

Tink

[Painless]

Disaster struck last night upon getting home from work:



My cell literally burst itself open in the middle, due to pressure buildup.  A blockage was caused by the cell leaching (which I thought was over with after conditioning) and the leached material blocking up the cell holes.  I had to throw away all my gaskets, as they had melted where the cell over heated due to the short caused by the leach material:



Looks like I have a re-design and rebuild on my hands.

[hydrotinkerer]

Painless are those plates from DaneD? I would be tempted to use neoprene for a large stack like that.

[Painless]

Yep, they are from Dane, 304L SS.

I'm going to split the stack, I think it's asking too much to have 49 plates in one set and expect there to not be heat or throughput problems.

I would love to use neoprene, all about cost though

[Bob]

Tink :
 No havn't flushed the radiator in my truck sense I got it about a year ago now....
probably should... in normal operation it warms up before I hit Hwy 44 and sits at 1/2 from then on... only one time did I ever see it climb above that and not very far either... on the long steep hill in summer once I topped the hill the temp droped quickly. when I got home I added antifreeze to it and topped it off, it took about a quart is all...
...
 Painless ! ACK ! what a mess ! man sorry to hear of your problems with the cell !
makes me wonder if the dry cell design will work under dirty conditions !?!
in my design I plan to make I figured I'ed put one 1/2" hole on top and one 1/2" hole on bottom of each plate , for the electrolyte circulation......
 what are the size of your holes in the plates ? and are they staggered in alignment or in line?   sounds to me like we need to do some fine tuneing on the designs because you will get Leaching out garbage out of the metal no matter how much you pre treet them (I think anyway)
...unless you run the cells at the same amperage on the test bench as you will in the car  your going to get goo formation..! 
I got my Goo undercontrol only by flushing the container after each run to town for at least 3 weeks, which amounted to about 12 times because I don't go to town very often if I can help it!.... and even then I was still getting goo till I switched to Koolaid... but these dry cells need the KOH and I doubt Koolaid is an option , its just not strong enough !
....
But take hart ! it looks bad but its not hurt , all you gott'a do is buff each plate real good and get it real clean and replace the gaskets ! it will have etched marks in the stainless steel but don't let that worry you, just clean it good!
....problem is keeping it from doing the same thing again.... because it will !
I think bigger holes might help... but who knows !
...
I am wondering if Scratch has had a goo problem with his 2 big cells ?
running with a circulation system may well pose new problems that we havn't seen before
...
Good idea on reduceing the size( plate number) that will allow you to get the Amps per square in  up a bit higher... which means more heat but should also mean more output!
....
good luck and keep us posted on your problems/successes  PLEASE !
...
Bob.......

[hg2]

  Russ sorry to see that,I know you've been working hard on that new generator.What a blowout,I've seen  pics of cell failure but that's gotta be the worst for a dry design.

  Neoprene isn't really that expensive,the commercial grade I get from Tampa Rubber and Gasket in that thickness(and I'm not sure if they carry 1/24")comes in 3ft wide rolls and shouldn't cost more than $3.50 to $4.00 per ft.I've been having them cut mine for me,but I think in your case having so many plates it'd be cheaper in the long run to cut your own.

  Their ph.# is 813-247-3647

[Painless]

Bob,

Not being able to run the cell at the same throughput on the test bench is definitely an issue I need to address, I need to invest in a battery and charger for indoor use.  I just don't have the facilities at the moment to meet these needs.

I've had dry cells leach like this before, it's pretty normal especially when using the lower grades of SS.  This is one reason why I always place the feed hose that takes electrolyte from my reservoir to the cell an inch or two above the bottom of the reservoir.  That way, any sediment that makes it back to the reservoir will settle and not keep pumping around.  One of the things I was shooting for with this cell was as close to zero electrolyte movement as I could get, I have proven that this raises efficiency on my test bench.  Unfortunately, this also meant that the leached material stayed right where it was.

I also believe that bundling so many (49) plates together in one huge stack was a mistake.  It's asking a lot for 4 odd LPM of gas to go through such a huge run of plates with 1/4" holes.  My holes are not staggered.

My big mistake here was no enough conditioning to get past this stage and running the gen at too many amps off the cuff.  You're correct though that all is not lost, I put the plates through the dishwasher yesterday and they came out lovely

hg2,

I'm wondering how much it would cost to get 49 gaskets cut from neoprene for me, I have health issues that make repetitive jobs like that very painful.  I can do it, but end up paying for it for a few days after.  I'm also interested in creating a dry cell that has no gaskets, I may look into making a small one of these before I redo the giant cell.

Every failure is a lesson learnt.

Russ.

[Bob]

Ahhh yes I think you hit the nail on the head with your reasoning for the failure Russ !
no electrolyte movement or even very little would allow the goo/leached out crap to build up between the plates and not be carried out to settle in the return tank....
although improvement in LPM may be possable with no movement, a clean cell is far more important !...so much for hind sight eh !? <GRIN>
at least I know what not to do because of your sharing your experiments with us ! THANK YOU!
...
1/4" holes are purdy darn small for 49 plates ...I have to agree with that....
also I think making the holes in a way so the inlet side is down and the outlet side is up would help a great deal in helping to get rid of the goo...
as I said before I think you will alwayse have some goo forming, weather its a problem simply depends on how much it is....
...
Here's a Pic of my latest design that I hope to build soon its only 5 -12"x12" plates but note the position as they sit... the top and bottom will have 1/2" holes so 2 holes in each plate alowing water in and water/gas out.... I am hopeing the purculator effect will move enough water to keep it cool, if not I'll add a pump.
...
perhaps this will give you some ideas ?
...
good luck !
Bob.......

[hydrotinkerer]

Painless,
            On my 25 plate cell it had 1/4" holes in it. I figured out that when you hit the 2lpm threshhold the 1/4" holes are not large enough. Mine just got hot and didn't have the blow out yours had. I have since enlarged my exhaust holes to 1/2". Since looking at your pics I assume you are using both 1/4" holes for exhaust. I think you might still need a little larger hole for exhaust especially on such a large stack.

How do you like Danes plates? He pm'd me and I have thought about getting some but was wondering what they were like.

[Painless]

Bob,

Your design looks good, you've got all the hoses in the right places.

Hydro,

I like danes plates very much, they are extremely flat and cut very accurately with laser equipment.  A trip in the dishwasher cleaned them up very well, even after my fudge up.

I'm definitely going to divide up the plates by placing some hollowed out plastic, like a very thick gasket, in between the divides.  This hollowed out wall will have an exit barb in the top so that the HHO and electrolyte have several places to exit.

Russ.

[hg2]

  Russ I'll get a cost on the gaskets for you on Monday when they open.I know the plates are 3"x5",just let me know the thickness,if you want to stay with 1/24" inch(if they carry material that thin I don't know)or if you plan to go to a slightly thicker gasket.

[Bob]

Painless:
 thanks for your approval on the hoses anyway <GRIN>
I take it you didn't like much of anything else on it ? hehehehhehe
...
the reason I'm Hurrassing you on this is because you DIDN'T say anything about the plates being turned 45deg. so the peek is UP so the gases flow up and out and less plate area is negated due to the plates being horizontal....
   I thought it a good way to make a square shaped Dry cell wetter ! in fact I am kind'a surprised I'm the only one that has said anything about it as of yet... but I've never seen one on the peek like that and I think its a really good idea !
 although at first thought  you wouldn't think your loosing that much plate area due to the bubble of gas held in the cell when its horizontal but even if its only 1/4" of the top edge of the plate that is left exposed all the time and can't generate gas, that on this plate design equals .25x12"=3"x5plates =15sqr inches not being used... so it adds up Fast!
...
although I don't have the Pop off caps drawn in on both containers, rest assured they would be there and replace the glue on caps on both containers<GRIN>
....
also after Manta's Ranting about big plates and mutable hookups to the plates I desided to add a electrical connection  of the same polarity on the same plate at 90deg. to each other
so in essence all 4 cornors have wires going to them being 2 pos 2 neg ... that way IF the plate resistance is enough to knock down some production as the distance away from the electrical connection is increased the 2nd connection on the other side of the plate should nip it in the bud so to speak and give full production from the plate all over it! not just the upper half!
... I figure its cheep insurance if nothing else, and it will help in handling large amounts of amperage !
...
I was Hopeing You guys that are still building now that the snow is on the ground, would
see these changes as "good things" to put on your cells ! HAHAHHAHAHA and that way I could see if they actually help ! hehehehehe  !!!!!!
...
...I could re draw it with 49 plates in it... if that would make ya like it more ! 
heheheheheh<GRIN>
...
Bob....

 

[Tink]

Guys,
2 suggestions here:

1, Maby a dry/wet cell hybred of sorts where there is a resivor at the bottom of the cell to collect the goo and stuff.

2, the use of a 'de-sulfator' like we use in solar applications to knock off the sulfate that builds up over time in the wet cell solar batteries. I'm thinking the de-sulfators are somewhat like the PWM's in that they send a controled pulse through the battery while charging. This pulse is of a certain frequency that acks like a harmonic to kick off the sulfate. It's not used to, and does not, control amps.

Bob,
Standing the cell on a corner is a novel idea. It may have some merit.

Tink

[Manta]

Tink,

Don't the de-sulphators give something like a very sharp 70-90 volt pulse ?  I remember something about having to put a small choke between the unit and alternator if you were running it on your car.

Manta

[Painless]

Bob,

I can be a man of few words sometimes and the king of understatement (something we British suffer from).  The diamond shape is a great idea, I would have done same had my plates been more square.  You will maximise your production area this way.

Russ.

[Painless]

  Russ I'll get a cost on the gaskets for you on Monday when they open.I know the plates are 3"x5",just let me know the thickness,if you want to stay with 1/24" inch(if they carry material that thin I don't know)or if you plan to go to a slightly thicker gasket.

I have been giving serious thought to going back to the thicker 1/16th gasket this time, I've proven that my sub 1mm width ( before compression ) is just a recipe for shorts if it clogs.

[hg2]

  Russ I do admit when I first read you were using 1/24" gaskets I did cringe a little.I didn't say anything because I know you as one of the more active HHO experimenters and I figured you knew gaskets that thin would work.What you said does make sense that ultra thin gaskets can lead to shorts and clogs and another possibility could have been a plate(or plates) warping under the stress and shorting out causing excess heat.

  I think 1/16" will work fine after all that's half the thickness TeroRanta had on the original plans.

  You might want to wait a bit to see how Hydrotinkerers new cell tests out before you decide on thickness.He finished assembly last Fri. and he's using 1/16" neoprene on his 5N4 design and should be posting results here soon.

[Painless]

I know from my experience that 2/16th's runs cool but it's tough to pull any useful amount of amps.  My last cell, a twin stack of 26 plates total, couldn't pull more than 15 amps no matter how much KOH I added.

The 0.040" gaskets produce like nobody's business and don't have issues with overheating.  The same 26 plate cell with the 0.040" gaskets pulled 2.33 LPM at a 5.4 MMW.

The small plate gap is OK, as long as nothing gets into the cell that can't get out.  That said, I am decided that a drop to 1/16th's is the way to go.  Expense, however, is always and issue.

Russ.

[Bob]

Hummmmm...
in order to make an INTELLIGENT decision on the plate gap boys, don't we need to examine the LPM output of both plate gaps in question ?
 if the thinner plate gap produced 2 times as much Hydroxy gas than the 1/16" plate gap
I think it would be well worth the hassle of trying to keep the cell super clean
 you could after all run the input line to the cell through a filter before it goes into the cell, as Long as you have good water Movement...(as far as I'm concerned the more water movement the better !)
However if the LPM difference is minimal say only 1/2 LPM at max. then its not worth the dangers or hassles...
but My experience has showed me that getting the plate gap BELOW 1/16" is where it counts for LPM output... the small difference in gap there makes a huge difference in output
...
I went from 1/16" gap on one of my experimental cells and it produced about 1/4LPM
changed it to the thickness of the nylon folders (2 washers per side so double thickness)
and the production went up to 1.5LPM.... and this was with Normal steel plates !not stainless
at the time I was pushing about 30 amps so it was not great production at all, but the difference in plate spacing showed a Huge improvement over all...
I did the experiment with same number of plates and same amp draw , only thing changed was the plate spacing... I figured that the improvement was almost 3~4 times that of the original
setup...
if that can be translated to your cells by simply using .020 plate spacing isn't that worth it ?... Just make sure the Shit flows OUT of the cell instead of sets in there !
thats all you have to do !
....Granted the cell I used was just a bigger version of a Randy cell and not a dry cell
so the goo could be gotten rid of easily...
... I'ed be interested in noting the differences in output if you have any figures for us on that <GRIN>
...
But you guys know your Dry cells better than I do ...by far, and if you think that there is no way to keep the goo from getting stuck between the plates then I'll have to go along with ya on it !....  I suppose it depends upon the cell and the water flow through it
without a pump I'ed have a tenancy to think "it may not work at all" because of the goo buildup.... but with a pump, there should be no problem !
...
Comments ?
...
Bob........

[Tink]

Manta,
I'll look into that, I don't remember just how they work but they do extend the life of the batteries since they don't allow the sulfate to build up on the plates as fast. I'll get back to you on that in a few days.
Tink